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#121 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,512
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward
Then wait for the doughnut to finish frying. |
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Disturbances of the semantic reactions in connection with faulty education and ignorance must be considered as sub-microscopic colloidal lesions - Alfred O. Korzybski |
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#122 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 30,759
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#123 |
NWO Litter Technician
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I?
Posts: 13,018
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When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips
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#124 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,844
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Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isn’t. |
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#125 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 15,721
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#126 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,059
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I'm your obsession |
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#127 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,800
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Have we seriously moved on to the FBI is still bad because their questions give them unfair advantage over a person with a neuropathology that prevents him from telling the truth, and that person just happens to be the President of the United States of America?
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#128 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 12,505
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To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
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#129 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,225
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"We're done! We're done! GET OUT!" |
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#130 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,059
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I'm your obsession |
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#131 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,225
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"We're done! We're done! GET OUT!" |
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#132 |
I lost an avatar bet.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 26,185
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But that is not what is happening They gave him written questions and told him to take as much time as he wanted. If he can’t check the documents, it is because he deleted the emails or shredded the documents. He can talk to anyone he wants to in order to refresh his memory. There is no perjury trap.
Quote:
But I’m open-minded enough to say that if the very best Mueller can do is catch him getting a date wrong or forgetting who was present in a meeting, then I will support any Senator that votes not guilty and condemn any Representative that votes for impeachment. |
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I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly. |
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#133 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 15,721
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#134 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 15,721
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#135 |
I lost an avatar bet.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 26,185
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I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly. |
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#136 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 15,721
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#137 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,225
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But that's not the definition of "material fact," is it. The legal definition says that it's a fact that a reasonable person would consider important in reaching a conclusion. If the subject of the investigation is whether or not TrumpCo colluded with Russia, then whether or not Trump was trying to negotiate a deal in Russia is a material fact, just like all the other contacts with Russians that TrumpCo lied about.
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"We're done! We're done! GET OUT!" |
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#138 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 15,721
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#139 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,059
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I'm your obsession |
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#140 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,908
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It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell |
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#141 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 805
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There's also a (very remote) possibility that, during the questioning, the person of interest can present additional facts of which the FBI was unaware, thus changing the criminal activity to non-criminal activity. For a (very wild and completely unbelievable) example, Trump could produce evidence that he'd been working with the CIA on a sting operation against Putin, and all of his suspicious behavior was part of a long con, not against the US, but against Russia. Trump would obviously not have been able to admit to this until the con ended, and his behavior during the long con would be consistent with someone guilty of criminal conspiracy. I'm throwing this out because an FBI interview is not always a foregone conclusion of guilt; it's often a fact-finding portion of an ongoing investigation. It's a crazily-ridiculous example of how Trump could be dismissed as a person of interest, but it's theoretically possible. In general, when questioned by the FBI, only four answers to any question are advisable: Yes (truthfully), No (truthfully), I don't recall (truthfully), or, Plead the 5th (and force the FBI to prove their case) |
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#142 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,059
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I'm your obsession |
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#143 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,225
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"We're done! We're done! GET OUT!" |
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#144 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,225
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Read my definition again: "a reasonable person..."
![]() It's a material fact because it's part of a larger pattern of contacts with Russians that were lied about, which is circumstantial evidence of "collusion." It's also a material fact because the Russians knew Trump was lying about the deal, and that's kompromat that could be used as leverage. |
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"We're done! We're done! GET OUT!" |
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#145 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,908
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It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell |
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#146 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 15,721
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#147 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,059
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HI! Here is the thing, repeating your total non sequitor in response to my post does not actually make your non sequitor a "sequitor," you dig?
He plead guilty to lying about activities that were not illegal, so typing "material fact" again is actually quite silly. Focus like a laser on TBD's posts and y'all might learn something. |
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I'm your obsession |
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#148 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,225
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"We're done! We're done! GET OUT!" |
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#149 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,117
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Trump is in trouble because of his vanity, greed, dishonesty, and lack of regard for anything other than himself.
He’s in more trouble because he’s been able to get away with stuff up to now, enthusiastically aided and abetted by a cynical coalition of criminals, kleptocrats, crackpots, con men, Klansmen, wife-beaters, assorted nincompoops, trolls, and traitors. But he’s never had to deal with a team of smart, disciplined, incorruptible prosecutors and investigators like Mueller’s. These aren’t cheaply-bought mooks like Bondi and Paxton. They’re not interested in owning Twitter for the day, or cable ratings or book deals. They’re all about getting to the bottom of it. Trump thinks he can out-Fox them. That’s precious. |
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#150 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 10,399
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For someone who gives out unsolicited law "pro-tips" and claims to be an expert in US Law, y'all do come out with some howlers. Fantastic!
You do understand, don't you, that doing something that is on its face, legal, can still be illegal if it is materially connected with the commission of a crime? e.g. Provided you are fully licenced to drive, then driving a car is perfectly legal. However, if that car is a getaway car, and you are driving two perps away from a bank robbery they have just committed, then what you are doing is illegal. There was nothing per se illegal about Trump negotiating a building project in Russia; it wasn't even illegal for him to do so while he was on the campaign trail - there was nothing wrong or illegal about him hedging his bets against losing the election. However, if that project was in furtherance of gaining a quid-pro-quo for Putin and his people to hack into computers and servers to steal documents, then that is conspiracy to commit a crime. If he then fires people who wont stop an investigation into what he has done, that's obstruction of justice (18 USC § 1510). If he dangles pardons in front of people who would testify against him, that is witness tampering (18 USC § 1512 ) and obstruction of justice (18 U.S. Code § 1510). If part of the quid pro quo was Russia interfering in the 2016 Presidential election, then that is defrauding the United States of America (18 USC § 371). Also, I hear and read some people saying that lying to the American people might be scummy and bad form, it is not actually a crime. That might be correct, however, it is an impeachable offence for a President to do so when he has done so in order to mislead the public over a criminal act that he was involved in, and this has precedent in the impeachment of President Richard M. Nixon. Article 1 |
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As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. - Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920 |
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#151 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,503
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Having been questioned by the FBI in connection with matters that have absolutely nothing to do with Mueller's investigation, I can report that the following statement is quite silly:
Not all FBI questions are yes/no questions. Most of the questions I was asked were along the lines of "What can you tell me about ____?" or "Concerning ____, did you notice anything unusual?" Of course, my experience with the FBI might be quite different from DallasDad's experience. I have no reason to think the FBI has ever suspected me of committing a crime. |
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#152 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 18,023
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![]() It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) ![]() |
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#153 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,059
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I'm your obsession |
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#154 |
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 39,644
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Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity. Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes |
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#155 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,059
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Say, but this was a plea bargain, not an investigation. And we were confidently informed that the FBI had documented evidence of criminal conduct, although the only criminal conduct mentioned was “lying” about legal activity.
Although I am a bit jealous that people can argue that there is totally secret “facts” that totally support your argument. Lol |
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#156 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 10,399
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I'm a bit jealous of people who, rather that admit Dear Leader did something wrong, can twist and contort themselves in their efforts to excuse his rancid behaviour, so that they more resemble a pretzel than a person. Adorable! Fantastic even!
Hooboy! |
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As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. - Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920 |
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#157 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 805
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I've sat in on an FBI questioning, but my experience may not be typical. What the lawyer told my acquaintance was that leading or exploratory questions don't have to be answered directly. For example, if asked, "What can you tell me about___?" one can either respond by asking for a more specific question, or just offer some general information you know about ___. Say, for example, one is asked, "What can you tell me about Vladimir Putin?" one could answer, "There are probably a lot of people named that. I wouldn't know. If you mean the current ruler of Russia, he appears to be around 60 in my judgment, has short hair, likes to be photographed doing sportsy things shirtless, and is rumored to be pretty rich." This would force the investigator to reformulate his question a series of questions like, "Have you ever met Vladimir Putin in person?" "When did you meet him?" "Where did you meet?" etc., each of which could be answered yes/no or simple declarative. Even "What did you discuss?" can generate an honest, "I'm not sure. It was a long time ago. What do you mean?" which would force the investigator to ask, "Did you discuss Brexit?" -- reducing again to a yes/no type of answer. In the one experience I had, the respondent never got a chance to answer leading or exploratory questions, because the lawyer jumped in immediately to force the investigator to narrow the scope. I've never been on the receiving end of an FBI investigation, so my one experience may be way off. I was only allowed to be present for a few minutes, to attest to a written statement that I had seen my acquaintance sign the week before. He was never charged with anything, as far as I know, and this was at least 20 years ago. Rules may have changed, or maybe the type of investigation controls the amount of fishing they can do. If there are any experts here, I'd enjoy learning more. |
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#158 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,503
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That's the kind of answer you'd want to give if you were the kind of clueless idiot who, having committed a crime, cannot resist inflating your ego by daring the FBI to make something of it. So yes, your experience and advice, albeit atypical, is definitely more relevant to this thread than my experience. |
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#159 |
Crazy Little Green Dragon
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,725
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Trump administration 'had a secret plan to lift Russian sanctions' and cede Ukraine territory to Moscow.
I wonder if we'll be hearing more about this on the Mueller front. |
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So sayeth the crazy little dragon. |
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#160 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 12,505
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wrong thread!?*
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To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
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