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Tags Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi , Lockerbie bombing , Pan Am 103

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Old 17th November 2009, 02:01 AM   #161
Caustic Logic
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I don't know, but you're convincing me that the entire Erac thing needs to be looked at more carefully. It's back to the timeline, which I was chewing over in a different thread.

It really does appear to be the Erac printout that is the crucial item of evidence which sent the focus of the case veering towards Libya. I realised this while reading Coleman, who of course has a different perspective because he's writing so early in the case, before everybody started obsessing about the timer fragment.
Convincing, eh? That's cool. Actually a couple things I'm seeing lately make me less sure - possiblle time confusion, etc. - things I don't know - but this idea of the paper being faked still has the strongest pull and I think I'm in its orbit. Timelines are always great to get a usable context. At least until time starts working differently. Below, your timeline with noted corrections - the order changes.
  • Up to March 1989, everybody is very excited about the PFLP-GC connection, with arrests being expected and so on.
  • Mid-March 1989, the alleged conversation between Thatcher and Bush, agreeing to play down that connection. However, at first there as no alternative theory put forward in its place.
  • August 1989, the Frankfurt police finally hand over the Erac printout to the investigating authorities, complete with annotations and supporting documentation to suggest an unidentified bag has come through the system on to PA103A from KM180.
  • September 1989, Scottish police visit Malta for the second time, to try to trace the purchaser of the "Made in Malta" items that were identified as probably having been in the bomb suitcase. (Their first visit, in March, was apparently fruitless, as similar items had been supplied to retailers all over Europe, however after the KM180 connection was proposed they went back to concentrate on retailers on Malta itself.)
  • Almost immediately, with the help of the Maltese police, they were put in touch with Gauci, who told them about the mystery shopper, and volunteered that he believed the man to have been Libyan.
  • January 1990 (I think), the conference where Henderson doesn't reveal the mystery green fragment for general consideration, but mentions it to Marquise, who is quite miffed at the determination of the Scottish cops to "go it alone" on the identification.
  • April 1990, the fragment's trip to Germany and the Siemens factory.
  • June 1990, Thurman finally gets a gander at it and identifies it in no time flat.
  • Late September 1990, the first press reports in a French newspaper allege Libyan involvement.
  • December 1990, the Sunday Times and other English papers have shifted their line from Syria to Libya.

Awesome list, this is worth copy-pasting and stuff. On the order change and context, it was the timer thing that seemed to solidify what was being decided and "discovered" over the previous year. It was done with FBI/CIA help (really, oddly tandem) and with French help (Senegal timers). Somehow 'the French' wound up offering media help as well, we see, publicizing the Libya connection is official, mostly based on the Libya-Africa-terror-timer stuff backed by the previous (clothes, printout, Gauci).

Quote:
So by this reckoning, the Erac printout is far more important that I had realised at first. It led to KM180, which led to Malta, which led to Gauci, who said "filthy Libyan pigs" or something like that. Nevertheless, the investigators still had nothing concrete to link it to Libya at this stage. That was where Giaka came in, and of course the MST-13 fragment.
Nothing concrete? The will to convict was. ETA: Indict, punish, distract, whatever. !!

Quote:
Leaving aside the evidence of the red-circle photo (suggesting that the timer fragment was in the system in May 1989), this all looks quite neat.
And to be fair, the Maltese clothes were there - since whenever exactly, and unless the August report is false, this printout was in official hands before Feb 2, so probably done being changed.

Quote:
All the initial evidence points to the PFLP-GC. <snip> Iran <snip> "controlled" drugs delivery <snip> release of the Beirut hostages. So we seriously don't want these questions asked.

This is March, OK?
There ample possible reasons to go intosome kind of panic mode - DEA, DIA, CIA, NATO, WTFKWE, might have been tripping over each other to get hold of the baggage records and control them away from whoever else, however else. Most of the history of the Lockerbie debate is based on what did and didn't happen at Frankfurt. And the police either didn't bother investigating there until February, or their earlier visits are unknown, and no one has bothered to explain which of these it is.

Quote:
Is it at all possible that the Frankfurt and Maltese police were in some way co-opted to provide that chain of evidence that would lead to Gauci and "filthy Libyan pigs"? I would just mention that Frankfurt is in the part of Germany that was under US control post WW2.
Didn't you hear Cannistraro? It was Luqa and Air Malta that were co-opted by Libya, due to a high evil-distance ratio. The US is neither evil nor close to Germany. Their completely ransacked records at Frankfurt were just, yknow... hey, the paper from the locker says Malta! So Malta's carefully kept papers are all fakes! Where have I heard logic like this? Oh yeah, 9/11 Twoof people.

Quote:
They've got five months to do it. According to Coleman (who isn't necessarily correct, but it's a start), all that was handed over by the Germans was the Erac printout, the handwritten worksheet from station 206, and a typewritten document. All neatly ready-annotated with the inference trail leading to KM180. Caustic Logic, do you think it's possible for the entire damn lot to have been fabricated, or at least the printout?
All is possible. Only the printout do I feel compelled to call a likely fake. I can't say what the timeline really was - five months could be it. It's just so odd that the (supp) destroyed and lost computer data had this disappeared, re-surfaced paper record of just the part they needed.

This allows for a period of concealment and control. As I said earlier, if I were such a villain in this case, I'd want the whole data set, on a tape or however they did it, in my hands and no copy left for anyone else. I'd pay millions, easy. I don't want to libel anyone in particular, but I might want anywhere from one to four inside people, depending. I'd discuss what we wanted with a few respected big-picture-thinking higher ups, leaving the secrecy to them and me. I'd use my airport contacts to help me encode that into something plausible-looking that, coupled with ("verified by") existing records, would create two points, and a line, to Libya. And then use my contacts to seed back the lead we wrote for ourselves into the 3-D world. So I guess Mrs. Erac does pop us as a suspect in this hypothetical scenario.

At any rate, given the influence the US enjoyed in West Germany, the suspicious blank spot over any timely BKA enquiries, the lack of corroboration for the Maltese bag it implies, and presence of strong contradictory clues, one should take pause, considering the weight of the frozen turkey to be perched on this slender sapling. Whether or not one is willing to question the very reality of this record, it would be foolhardy to ignore the blatant and gaping breach of the chain of evidence here. It's like someone took a hacksaw to it. The evidence should have been taken with at least a grain of salt and wasn't.

To their credit, the Scottish judges never seemed totally convinced of the printout's implications, and made show of serious nodding and concerned brow-furrowing over Air Malta's strong stance relative to the mess at Frankfurt they do not draw any unnecessary attention to. It's only in the context of a lot of other questionable stuff that they decide - I can only surmise - that somebody really, really powerful wants them to say guilty.

Last edited by Caustic Logic; 17th November 2009 at 02:05 AM.
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Old 17th November 2009, 05:07 AM   #162
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I recognise that this is a fair way down the rabbit hole, but I think the scenario is worth thinking about, if only because it manages to explain so much of the weirdness.
  • I think the clothes said to have been in the bomb suitcase were really there - that bit doesn't seem fakable to me
  • There were probably more clothes that were either unrecognisable or never recovered
  • I'm speculating that they came from Abu Talb's collection of Maltese textiles, which may well have been part of a proposed business plan
  • That would explain whay they were all of very recent manufacture, and such a mixed bunch - a babygro in with menswear
  • I still don't know why the labels weren't cut off, but maybe Malta seems a long way away when you're doing this in Germany and/or Sweden
  • I'd love to know where Abu Talb got his clothes collection and if any attempt was made to trace this
The point being that the existence of these clothes and their Maltese connection would give a good reason for choosing Malta as the place to shift the focus of the investigation to.

Since the bomb suitcase was agreed to have come in from Frankfurt (let's not look too closely at Heathrow and what Bedford is saying, really), the only way to do that is by implicating a Luqa-Frankfurt flight, that is KM180. Do we really know the printout was in existence by 2nd February? I'm postulating that elements within the Frankfurt police were doing this at the behest of the CIA, remember.

Of course, we don't have the native computer records, which even then I imagine could have been interrogated for accuracy and alterations. We only have a printout. I'm not sure how hard it would be to fabricate that. One way, I suppose, would be to create the entire thing de novo, using a genuine printout from a later date as a template. This would only work if other records that would show the provenance of other items of luggage on the list were unobtainable, but this seems to have been the case.

Alternatively, if a genuine printout did exist, it would be possible to copy this with the addition of an extra item. This really gets back to the question of what happened at Frankfurt in the days following the disaster, and how those records came to disappear. The fact that everything was gone within a few days does suggest a concerted effort to cover the tracks even then, and that could have involved secreting some items just in case they might come in handy later.

I wonder how hard it would be to create such a printout away from the actual baggage system - I mean by typing in the data to another computer attached to a similar printer and using similar paper. I would have thought it might be difficult if genuine examples of such printouts were available for comparison, or if it was scrutinised in detail by someone familiar with the real thing. But of course that wasn't going to happen, was it? The Frankfurt police attested to the provenance of the thing, and I don't suppose anyone in the Scottish police force ever considered checking it out. And of course by 2000, nearly 12 years later, no chance.

It's far-fetched, of course, but then the Official Version is also quite far-fetched.

Yes, I'm speculating (purely hypothetically) that Mrs. Erac was bribed, or blackmailed, or was working for the security forces in some way already, to get involved in this. How would I know? Sometimes it's the availability of someone who will be able to do this that dictates how it's done.

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Last edited by Rolfe; 17th November 2009 at 05:30 AM.
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Old 17th November 2009, 06:25 AM   #163
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Also remember they well could and should and would use all powers to remove apparent moral dilemmas prior to a good bribe. These secrets simply CANNOT become public, ma'am. If the Soviets, oh... no. The fate of the free world is in your hands.

In that situation, human psychology dictates, internal doubt will be overcome with a sense of "at least it wasn't MY decision to do a bad thing, if this is one... it was the Americans and I believe in them." This backed with other cues, the lull of money, fear of "disapproval." Otherwise expertise and discretion, and hence so far we have no evidence of any such things happening. Pure speculation.



Sorry, can't address points now. New blog post up, related to Megrahi's presence in Malta and the bag. It's actually complex enough I just put it all in one spot. I was hoping someone else could help me figure out what the hell it all means. I'll check after some sleep. Long but good night. Peace all.

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http://12-7-9-11.blogspot.com/2009/1...ripoli-to.html

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Old 17th November 2009, 12:07 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
Here's something else, maybe nothing. Looking at the Erac printout, a four digit number I'm wondering about. In the upper left, under KIK (which was I think Bogomira's station). 1932. It's to the left of a date, so is it a time?
I'd say thats time and date the report was generated 7:32pm 21st December 1988.


Quote:
Is it the time of data retrieval or printing? That's been said to be the next morning, but 1932 is evening. And the DATEI next to that, on the same data line, is 881221, not 1222. So if not access/print time and date, then what else might these represent?
Who says it was printed the following morning?
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Old 17th November 2009, 12:33 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post


This is March, OK?

Is it at all possible that the Frankfurt and Maltese police were in some way co-opted to provide that chain of evidence that would lead to Gauci and "filthy Libyan pigs"? I would just mention that Frankfurt is in the part of Germany that was under US control post WW2.
I don't buy that at all.

the way I read it is that eventually the "Made in Malta" tag on recovered clothes fragments is what lead the police to Malta and unless I am very much mistaken they didn't know about the Erac print out the Frankfurt police were sitting on until after then. The Frankfurt police were given this printout a couple of weeks (?) after the plane went down. Tho I think there is something odd going on re: baggage lists. If you asked Juval Aviv according to evidence he dug up for the Pan Am investigation there were as many as 13 un accompanied bags aboard 103. I always assumed it was SOP to grab as much info on any air accident asap, passenger lists, aircraft maintenance lists, baggage lists etc etc.

I do think the Erac printout is legit, tho I reserve the right to change my mind given sufficient evidence

there's some bits and pieces I posted a while back in another thread on declassified DIA intelligence stuff that was got via an FOIA req, there are entries that link Libya to 103 fairly early.

[all this at the moment is off the top of my head as all my notes/bookmarks/docs etc etc are on my main PC at home and not here on this laptop]


Quote:

Well, I'm on a bit of a roll here. Abu Talb had a load of clothes of Maltese manufacture in his flat in Sweden. He said he was investigating a business plan to sell these clothes in Sweden. But you don't buy such clothes samples from a retailer like Gauci. Do we know where he got those clothes? Did anybody try to find out?
I assumed these were bought from Gauci but at an earlier date.

Quote:
Suppose Jibril and his henchmen simply took some of Abu Talb's Maltese clothes samples for bomb packing. That's the real Maltese connection..
There were clothes from Malta in the suitcase that were shipped from the suppliers to Gauci after the last possible date Talb was there. IIRC the "Yorkie" Trousers.

I believe Gaucis testimony, I am sure he sold the clothes he said he did more or less when he was first interviewed with an unmbrella to a man that he thought "sounded Libyan" who looks similar to Megrahi but wasn't Megrahi.

I think his subsequent IDs of Megrahi and the changing of his story over time is very suspect when you consider he got paid after the trial, and the ID parade was a joke, but I think the basic premise that fragments of clothes found in the wreckage of 103 came from Gauci is a solid one.
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Old 17th November 2009, 02:43 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
I'd say thats time and date the report was generated 7:32pm 21st December 1988.

Who says it was printed the following morning?

That would be exactly an hour and a half after Maid of the Seas blew up.

There are (at least) two versions of how this printout came into being. One is that the printout existed already, presumably along with printouts of the loadings for all the other flights that day, and Mrs. Erac was about to throw the whole lot away. She noticed the printout from PA103A and realised these were the bags of the people who had been killed. She laid that printout aside and kept it in her locker as a memorial for those people. She then went off on holiday and didn't think any more about it. Only later did it occur to her that it might have evidential value.

The other version is that, knowing that the data would be wiped from the system within a few days, she took it upon herself to make a printout of the loading for that particular flight, to preserve it for evidential purposes. She then went off on holiday, yadda yadda. In this version, I think the printout is made the following day.

It seems to me that Mrs. Erac herself has related both versions, although the former is the one she tells to the Conspiracy Files.

Rolfe.
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Old 17th November 2009, 04:02 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
I don't buy that at all.

I don't really buy it either, but I'm sort of trying it on for size.

Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
the way I read it is that eventually the "Made in Malta" tag on recovered clothes fragments is what lead the police to Malta and unless I am very much mistaken they didn't know about the Erac print out the Frankfurt police were sitting on until after then.

I'm taking Coleman's version here, which may be wrong, but it'll do until someone finds a more definitive version.

According to him, there were two visits to Malta. First, the labels on the clothes led the Scottish police to Malta, and they visited in March 1989, long before they knew anything about the Erac printout. They spoke to the suppliers of the babygro and other items, but they got nowhere. The goods had been supplied to retailers across Europe, and they believed it was a hopeless quest. They came home empty-handed.

The second visit was in September 1989, and was as a direct result of the information from Frankfurt. I don't quite understand the logic here, but it seems as if the information that the bomb had (or might have) been loaded at Luqa led them to conclude that the clothes hadn't just been manufactured in Malta but had been purchased there too. On that second visit the Maltese police seem almost to have led them straight from the textile factory to Gauci.

As I said, Coleman may be wrong about this, but I don't remember reading a different version.

Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
The Frankfurt police were given this printout a couple of weeks (?) after the plane went down. Tho I think there is something odd going on re: baggage lists. If you asked Juval Aviv according to evidence he dug up for the Pan Am investigation there were as many as 13 un accompanied bags aboard 103. I always assumed it was SOP to grab as much info on any air accident asap, passenger lists, aircraft maintenance lists, baggage lists etc etc.

This is a very peculiar aspect of the story - not just why the Frankfurt records vanished, but why nobody seems to have made a big deal about the records not being there.

Michael Jones and Dennis Phipps both say the Frankfurt records had vanished when they wanted to look at them - Jones says on 23rd January. Jones was especially puzzled by the fact that there were no copies, because in his view it would have been normal practice to have retained copies if the police had taken the originals. And in fact we know the police didn't take the originals - or if they did, they never produced them.

Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
I do think the Erac printout is legit, tho I reserve the right to change my mind given sufficient evidence

It seems awfully complicated for it not to be legit. It's just the huge number of coincidences we're supposed to swallow to explain all the weirdness in this affar is beginning to give me indigestion - and I normally have a very high tolerance for coincidences, ask any homeopath.

Caustic Logic started this thread by questioning the provenance of the printout and I pooh-poohed him. I'm just giving it another shot.

Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
I assumed these [clothes] were bought from Gauci but at an earlier date.

There were clothes from Malta in the suitcase that were shipped from the suppliers to Gauci after the last possible date Talb was there. IIRC the "Yorkie" Trousers.

This is more for the "mystery shopper" thread, but here goes.

I don't believe there is any evidence Talb was anywhere near Gauci, apart from the early (and not very productive) attempts to get Gauci to identify the "mystery shopper" as Talb. Gauci really seems to have only the vaguest idea who the mystery shopper might have been (if he existed ), and the evidence that it might have beenTalb isn't much stronger than the evidence that it might have been Megrahi.

Talb was buying clothes with a view to becoming a retailer (or perhaps a downstream wholesaler). You don't buy clothes in a shop under these circumstances. It's only logical that he would have bought them (or even been given them as samples) from the factory or factories. That's what his wife says.

Originally Posted by Jamilla Moghrabi
He went to Malta only once in October. A friend of his who has a clothes factory in Malta and Cyprus told him to go to the factory to buy some clothes to export to Sweden. He went to Malta for four days, then returned to Sweden with the clothes.

Now if I was investigating this, I'd want to know which factories he'd been to and what he'd taken away and whether any of these matched up with the clothes found at Lockerbie. It's possible this was looked into and drew a blank, but none of that information is in the public domain.

Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
I believe Gaucis testimony, I am sure he sold the clothes he said he did more or less when he was first interviewed with an unmbrella to a man that he thought "sounded Libyan" who looks similar to Megrahi but wasn't Megrahi.

I think his subsequent IDs of Megrahi and the changing of his story over time is very suspect when you consider he got paid after the trial, and the ID parade was a joke, but I think the basic premise that fragments of clothes found in the wreckage of 103 came from Gauci is a solid one.

I certainly said exactly that right at the beginning. It's the more probable explanation, for sure. The questionable part is the identification, not the purchase itself. Except it's such a weird thing to do, if you're looking for padding for a bomb bag. There are so many less conspicuous ways to get hold of some clothes. (Dammt, rob a few washing lines!)

And if Coleman is right about the two visits to Malta, and the magical facilitation of the identification of Gauci on the second occasion, I think alternative possibilities should at least be considered.

Rolfe.
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Old 17th November 2009, 04:16 PM   #168
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The clothes came from Malta: therefore the bomb must have been loaded at Malta.

But if the bomb wasn't loaded at Malta how came the clothes to be on board the flight?

Am I reading this part of the riddle right?
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Old 17th November 2009, 04:59 PM   #169
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The clothes were purchased at least 2 weeks before the flight. They could have gone anywhere in the world in that two weeks.

Everybody who has been suspected of this bombing is a regular international traveller. Assuming it was necessary to buy new clothes for the packing material (rather than use old clothes, a charity shop, raid a clothes line or fill the damn case with bubble-wrap), why would anyone necessarily choose to make this remarkably conspicuous purchase only three miles from the airport where they were going to load the bomb?

There's a whole thread on the purchase of the clothes, guys....

Rolfe.
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Old 17th November 2009, 05:13 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
There were clothes from Malta in the suitcase that were shipped from the suppliers to Gauci after the last possible date Talb was there. IIRC the "Yorkie" Trousers.

I need clarification of this, but I'm taking it to the "mystery shopper" thread.

Rolfe.
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Old 18th November 2009, 12:08 AM   #171
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Printed 7:32pm, eh?

Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
I'd say thats time and date the report was generated 7:32pm 21st December 1988.

I'd say thats time and date the report was generated 7:32pm 21st December 1988.

Who says it was printed the following morning?
Thanks. That's what I thought too.

Opinion of the Court:
Quote:
[30] Mrs Bogomira Erac, a computer programmer employed at the airport, was on duty on 21 December 1988. She heard of the loss of PA103 during the evening of that day and realised that PA103A had departed during her period on duty. She was interested in the amount of baggage on the Frankfurt flight, and on the following morning she decided to take a printout of the information as to baggage held on the computer in case it should contain any useful information.
Heard during evening ... printed following morning. These are details. Sure, maybe they just deduced this timetable based on a misunderstanding. But judges are supposed to be better than that.

IF she was spinning a false story to that effect, one must wonder why. The court's own production 1060 itself disproves the next day claim they accepted. This fits closer with the story she herself told to Conspiracy files in 2008 - that it was a routine copy one might usually make and later discard.

So does this show the judges just misunderstood? But that doesn't quite sound right either, unless they happen to routinely print these up around 7:30. It SEEMS to be instead triggered by the crash (30 minutes after), and presumably therefore for investigative purposes. So why did it wind up in her locker for three weeks rather than in investigator's hands? And later surrounded by inconsistent stories?

As odd as this might be, it complicates my fakery theory. If someone altered or recreated this record to show that item 8849, and had Bogomira re-sell it to the world, why wouldn't the date and her story line up? I suppose it could be a bit of reverse psychology to raise just that question. Similar thinking could be why they decided to insert this between the layer arrival bags. "Make it stick out like a sore thumb? Genius! No one will ever suspect a plant that bold!" Otherwise, I acknowledge this as a strong counter-point, but something that needs to now be considered.

Yay! A new thing.
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Old 18th November 2009, 12:28 AM   #172
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On my e-mail to Professor Black about transcripts: he did get back to me and was quite nice. Unfortunately, copies are hard to get. If I read right, a full copy can be purchased for 10,000 GBP. Can that possibly be right? He did say there might be ways and gave me a few tips. I'll report back if anything new arises.

Select other points:
Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
the way I read it is that eventually the "Made in Malta" tag on recovered clothes fragments is what lead the police to Malta and unless I am very much mistaken they didn't know about the Erac print out the Frankfurt police were sitting on until after then.
As Rolfe covered, both led to malta, the second more conclusively.

Originally Posted by commandlinegamer View Post
The clothes came from Malta: therefore the bomb must have been loaded at Malta.
By riddle I hope you mean that you don't believe that. However, if you have Maltese clothes and a Maltese-origin bag pop up, then you've got reason to suspect a crippled Maltese terrorist who can't travel far. Why exactly the second visit went so much better I don't know, but there are natural causes, such as increased confidence and a desire to not come back empty-handed twice.

Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
The Frankfurt police were given this printout a couple of weeks (?) after the plane went down. Tho I think there is something odd going on re: baggage lists. If you asked Juval Aviv according to evidence he dug up for the Pan Am investigation there were as many as 13 un accompanied bags aboard 103. I always assumed it was SOP to grab as much info on any air accident asap, passenger lists, aircraft maintenance lists, baggage lists etc etc.

I do think the Erac printout is legit, tho I reserve the right to change my mind given sufficient evidence
It's a circumstantial case, spurred by the same suspicions I have that normally these records would be sought immediately. Perhaps they were, but that visit has been hushed up, perhaps due to something bad like the records being deleted early. OR for no apparent reason German police just sucked and didn't bother doing things. Has to be one of the two, unless we're wrong about what to expect. AND of course that when it surfaced it had yet another clue (if not perfect) stuffed inconspicuously into its collar pointing to Libya that could be teased out and followed to Gauci's shop.
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Old 18th November 2009, 02:25 AM   #173
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Oh, and on 1932 - some times on the printout are stamped with Z, meaning UTC, standard for plane-related stuff. This time is not so marked. So I thought maybe it was local time, which would be an hour later than Z. So that would be 6:32 Z time, well before PA103 blew up. This would help the routine print story. Last items were sent to gate at 1631, loaded probably, departure recorded as 1653. Could that be it? Or is the print time probably Z as well making this a "holy crap, 103 just blew up, print the records for that feeder now" document?
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Old 18th November 2009, 02:36 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
unless they happen to routinely print these up around 7:30. It SEEMS to be instead triggered by the crash (30 minutes after), and presumably therefore for investigative purposes.

Wait a minute! I was getting my time zones the wrong way round! I said an hour and a half after the crash, because of the GMT/Western Europe time difference, but that's wrong.

That printout is timed half an hour before the crash happened, in fact just as Maid of the Seas was climbing out of Heathrow. 7.28pm Frankfurt time is 6.28pm GMT. PA103 only took off at 6.25pm GMT. This would therefore support the story that Mrs. Erac told the Conspiracy Files. That it was a routine printout that she retained, not something she printed off specially.

Courts do get stuff wrong, especially details that don't matter. It may not have seemed important, so nobody bothered to draw it to the attention of the court. Looked at in this way, it supports the printout being genuine - if you were going to fake it to fit the story you were going to tell to the court, about printing it off the next day just in case it was needed, you'd date it the next day.

I wonder what these printouts were for, though? It would seem that they must have been routine for all flights, but why make retrospective printouts of the baggage loading records at the end of the day, if you're just gonig to chuck them in the bin the following day? Strange are the ways of bureaucracies.

It makes it even more strage about the vanishing records though. Computers are an arcane mystery to many people (more so in 1988 than now), but a piece of paper is a piece of paper. Why wasn't someone shouting "don't throw these away!"? Why weren't they rooting through the bins looking for the things?

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Old 18th November 2009, 03:09 AM   #175
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My goodness. Ms Erac was indeed very efficient. I would concur that the date on the printout she retained suggests : 1932 881221. 7.32pm on the 21 Dec 1988. However, surely this cannot be correct? The "following morning" as determined by the painstaking judges at Zeist does appear, and sound, far more plausible.

The crash occurring at 1903, it would indeed be prolific for Ms Erac, in Frankfurt, working at her desk, to have known and been absolutely confirmed that a crash had taken place over the Scottish border, involving an aircraft which had been fed from Frankfurt, and decided to do her own quick printout by 1932?? No one else in Frankfurt thought to keep records we are told except for the diligent Erac? Even a week later? And then by 23 Jan when Michael Jones visits Frankfurt, and no records are available.

However, yet again, not so it seems. Reported on Dec 27th, we have officers already at Frankfurt in the first few days looking for those very records relating 103a.
Quote:
The New York-bound flight originated as a Boeing 727 from Frankfurt, West Germany, with a change of planes at London's Heathrow airport. Federal police in West Germany and the commander of Scotland Yard's anti-terrorist squad last week began investigations at those airports.
http://plane-truth.com/Aoude/geocities/az3.html

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Old 18th November 2009, 03:25 AM   #176
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Sorry, double postings there.

I always thought the Erac printout had been done for 'sentimental' reasons. After the plane had crashed. However, it was retained for sentimental purposes, not printed. Yes? It was already printed as a matter of course after the flight had left Frankfurt, and she simply decided to keep a copy.
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Old 18th November 2009, 03:33 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Buncrana View Post
Sorry, double postings there.

I always thought the Erac printout had been done for 'sentimental' reasons. After the plane had crashed. However, it was retained for sentimental purposes, not printed. Yes? It was already printed as a matter of course after the flight had left Frankfurt, and she simply decided to keep a copy.

Yes, that's what she said in The Conspiracy Files. That she was about to throw away the printouts for the previous day, but she stood holding that one in her hand and thought about the people who had arrived at the airport with these bags, and laid it aside on her desk as a memorial.

Originally Posted by Buncrana View Post
The crash occurring at 1903, it would indeed be prolific for Ms Erac, in Frankfurt, working at her desk, to have known and been absolutely confirmed that a crash had taken place over the Scottish border, involving an aircraft which had been fed from Frankfurt, and decided to do her own quick printout by 1932??

Time zones, Buncrana! You can get Stundied for ignoring these! It's clear, if the time on the printout is reliable, that it was printed out before the crash actually happened.

What were the investigators thinking of, to let all this evidence escape them?

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Old 18th November 2009, 04:00 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Buncrana View Post
However, yet again, not so it seems. Reported on Dec 27th, we have officers already at Frankfurt in the first few days looking for those very records relating 103a.

Quote:
The New York-bound flight originated as a Boeing 727 from Frankfurt, West Germany, with a change of planes at London's Heathrow airport. Federal police in West Germany and the commander of Scotland Yard's anti-terrorist squad last week began investigations at those airports.

http://plane-truth.com/Aoude/geocities/az3.html

That's fascinating. The crash happened on Wednesday 21st December, and that article is dated Tuesday 27th December. So even by then, if it's correct that the Frankfurt computer records were purged after eight days, they should still have existed. The article says "last week" however, which would take the investigations back to within three days of the actual crash (taking Saturday 24th December as the end of "last week").

The implication there is that it was the German police who were investigating Frankfurt in the first instance. And that they started soon enough to have secured everything. How often do they empty the wastepaper bins anyway? What the hell was going on there?

Now if we were being told that there was a huge search in the airport for the single printout relating to the flight in question which was unaccountably missing, and this turned up later in the possession of an employee who had put it away in her locker before going off on her Christmas holiday, I'd find it more convincing. But that's not what we're being told. We're being told that pretty much everything was missing, even three days after the crash, even the actual computer records which shouldn't have been purged so soon, and it was pure chance that this one printout was retained.

Given how early the fuss seems to have started, how on earth did these computer records come to be purged, and how come the binned printouts couldn't be recovered, and why have we not heard more about this?

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Old 18th November 2009, 04:32 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Yes, that's what she said in The Conspiracy Files. That she was about to throw away the printouts for the previous day, but she stood holding that one in her hand and thought about the people who had arrived at the airport with these bags, and laid it aside on her desk as a memorial.
Can't anyone in this case just simply state their story and not embellish, contradict or become confused to the time elapsed to the point where each story, statement, or evidence presented, becomes incompatible? It would seem something as straightforward (and unknown to be absolutely critical) as to how and when the printout was initially obtained, should not be subject to such incongruity.


Quote:
Time zones, Buncrana! You can get Stundied for ignoring these! It's clear, if the time on the printout is reliable, that it was printed out before the crash actually happened.

What were the investigators thinking of, to let all this evidence escape them?

Rolfe.
Indeed, I had missed the obvious time zone discrepancy. And a quick check on being Stundied would not be a welcome award! However, it doesn't fully resolve the conflicting Erac story? The printout being generated at 1832 GMT, just as 103 left Heathrow on 21st, and on her returning to work the following day noticing this printout, decided to retain a copy in her locker/desk? Nobody was either already looking for this particular document or was to even enquire about it for the next 2 weeks while she was on holiday? I'd be interested to know how long Ms Erac had worked at Frankfurt before 1988, and indeed if she continued working out of Frankfurt subsequent to 1988.

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Old 18th November 2009, 04:49 AM   #180
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Holy cow this ran on ahead o me! On the above, I momentarily thought 1631 almost matched 1832. Duh. You add 12 not 10 for the AM dummy. So this is not a routine printing upon loading, unless it's routine to do these two hours after a flight leaves. Which is possible, maybe routine but delayed... Is that routine to print up records hours later, or is it Z time after all? Or someone psychically guessing it would blow soon?

On the posts above:
Originally Posted by Rolfe
It makes it even more strage about the vanishing records though. Computers are an arcane mystery to many people (more so in 1988 than now), but a piece of paper is a piece of paper. Why wasn't someone shouting "don't throw these away!"? Why weren't they rooting through the bins looking for the things?
I just can't think of a good reason why not. Ergo, I would suspect they did try to collect such data. The silence about it is eerie.

[QUOTE-Buncrana]The crash occurring at 1903, it would indeed be prolific for Ms Erac, in Frankfurt, working at her desk, to have known and been absolutely confirmed that a crash had taken place over the Scottish border, involving an aircraft which had been fed from Frankfurt, and decided to do her own quick printout by 1932?? [/quote]

I can see word traveling that fast, people suspect bomb, send out word to make sure records are kept in case. So you print. Perhaps if faked, this time was chosen just to make it look that way, but the stories got crossed somehow.

Quote:
No one else in Frankfurt thought to keep records we are told except for the diligent Erac? Even a week later? And then by 23 Jan when Michael Jones visits Frankfurt, and no records are available.
She wasn't even diligent really, she says, Just passively interested. It was a whim. shrugs shoulders. All these stories have a common theme - there was never any interest or urgency, and therefore, nothing wrong with suppressing it. If this is a true impression, someone needs to get after the BKA and all the people who might have prodded them on why the heck not?

Quote:
I always thought the Erac printout had been done for 'sentimental' reasons. After the plane had crashed. However, it was retained for sentimental purposes, not printed. Yes? It was already printed as a matter of course after the flight had left Frankfurt, and she simply decided to keep a copy.
Sentimental was the reason in the story where it was routine, as to why she put it in her locker and not the shredder. In the one where she printed it, it was for curiosity, maybe for the investigation, but she couldn't tell what it said and decided it wasn't important so it went in the hole.

Also, considering the BKA only went out to the ranch on it seems Feb 2, I'm guessing the general "three weeks" line is a fudge job and it wasn't handed over til the last days of January, a month or more after the crash. But then again, the BKA seem pretty darn slow on all this, huh?

Oops, missed the cool find - investigators there within days. So it wasn't slowness, necessarily. What did they find? Why did they never say? I'll have to read that.

Originally Posted by Rolfe
Time zones, Buncrana! You can get Stundied for ignoring these! It's clear, if the time on the printout is reliable, that it was printed out before the crash actually happened.
Not necessarily, mate. Check above and consider with proper care. And besides, afaik, this whole thing was forged, and if so it's in what form they thought it should like and the time stamp is only an indirect clue.

ETA: Apologies all for the little extra caustic lately. I've been both fired up and frustrated, I think it's mellowing now.

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Old 18th November 2009, 07:15 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
Originally Posted by Rolfe
It's clear, if the time on the printout is reliable, that it was printed out before the crash actually happened.

Not necessarily, mate. Check above and consider with proper care.

Sorry, not seeing it. If the time on the printout is reliable, it was done at 6.32 GMT. Maid of the Seas blew apart at 7.03 GMT.

I'm open to suggestions as to why the time on the printout may not be reliable.

Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
And besides, afaik, this whole thing was forged, and if so it's in what form they thought it should like and the time stamp is only an indirect clue.

I'm trying this on for size, however the time stamp, correlating as it does with Bogomira's story told to camera (which I always saw as being the more likely version) rather than to the evidential version, tends to push me to the "genuine" conclusion.

If you want a bit of CT with that though, how about postulatnig that the Frankfurt police did get all the records and removed them from prying eyes (such as Jones and Phipps) ASAP. Because there's no way we want the Scottish police rooting into what's been going on here as regards drug smuggling that we were turning a blind eye to.

Then they produced exactly what they wanted to produce (doctored as necessary) when it became expedient to try to show positive evidence a bag had come through Frankfurt from somewhere else.

There are quite a few people in this story I'd like to know more about. One is Mrs. Erac, and nother is Sulkash Kamboj, plus the baggage loaders who actually packed AVE4041 with the Frankfurt baggage.

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Old 18th November 2009, 07:28 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Buncrana View Post
Indeed, I had missed the obvious time zone discrepancy. And a quick check on being Stundied would not be a welcome award!

It just so happens that the January Stundie was won by someone who decided that time zones don't mean a thing.

Quote:
physically, the intercept still took 20 minutes, your time zone **** doesn't mean anything, than you AGAIN playing with words...

The intercept he's talking about actually took an hour and 20 minutes, as a time zone boundary was crossed and both times were reported as local time. Nevertheless, it only took 20 minutes in twoofer-think!

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Old 18th November 2009, 03:57 PM   #183
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Don't suppose there are any other printouts which could be used as reference to verify the details on the one being discussed at present?
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Old 18th November 2009, 06:15 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by commandlinegamer View Post
Don't suppose there are any other printouts which could be used as reference to verify the details on the one being discussed at present?
No and that's a big part of the problem. The time this was printed specifically would be hard to verift. I doubt there's a supplemental data printout log printout. Perhaps work logs might have someone writing down when they did things like this... but none of this is available if it exists.

On the debate over the time, Rolfe, I'm, not trying to be stubborn. I just am. All we have saying that's not Z time is the lack of a Z there. I admit that in itself is a good clue, it's not conclusive as time and date could be generated in a different way from the main baggage data that for some reason just doesn't bother with the Z.

ETA: And on it being reliable, I think the time (if actual data) is correct (give or take 2-3 minutes from what I hear), the Q is just which time zone its working in. Hour spread possible, 30 min before crash OR 30 min after. Right?

Now circumstantially, just so we're clear. If this is local time it's probably a routine printout for what was loaded on PA103A, but it was printed two hours and one minute after they finished loading, or 8 minutes or so after Heathrow takeoff, if they were waiting for that (which sounds weird but possible). That doesn't sound right to me, but could be. But otherwise we're cool with that, right?

And of course Mrs. Erac called it such a routine copy later, so the court's impression was apparently just wrong. I hope I can see the questioning myself sometime soon, because that also doesn't sound right to me. But it is of course possible.

The way things "sound to me" seems tied to my suspicious bias towards the issue, so I'm not sure I can therefore get a clear view on my own. And of course this all just reflects on the mode and mood in which this was printed, or appears to have been printed. It is a big clue, but still cannot explain what happened to all the regular data, nor do anything to explain the coincidence that some item was sent there in such a way it appeared to be from KM180.

Side track: Here's an article I'm not sure we've linked to here yet - a designer (?) of the Frankfurt system raises questions about the printout and lost records. He does sound maybe knowledgeable but not as up on the specifics as we are by now.
http://lockerbiecase.blogspot.com/20...mes-malta.html

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Old 19th November 2009, 02:24 AM   #185
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I know this has gotten really confusing, because of me I suppose. So far I do find local time would make the most direct sense from the paperwork, but the two-hour delay is a bit less odd as the quick 30 min response followed by the "meh" holiday vacation in Lockerstan. And then of course if it's faked/altered, this would only even reflect what someone wants us to see. (or perhaps to match some other record of when the REAL data was printed?) It's tough keeping all these options active, multiplying the possibilities to consider, so no shame in not going there.

On the above:
Originally Posted by Rolfe
If you want a bit of CT with that though, how about postulatnig that the Frankfurt police did get all the records and removed them from prying eyes (such as Jones and Phipps) ASAP. Because there's no way we want the Scottish police rooting into what's been going on here as regards drug smuggling that we were turning a blind eye to.

Then they produced exactly what they wanted to produce (doctored as necessary) when it became expedient to try to show positive evidence a bag had come through Frankfurt from somewhere else.

There are quite a few people in this story I'd like to know more about. One is Mrs. Erac, and nother is Sulkash Kamboj, plus the baggage loaders who actually packed AVE4041 with the Frankfurt baggage.
You know... I always want to exculpate the poilce, but it a Federal police force of a nation as great as West Germany can't produce its own shady decision-making processes for Cold War national security operations, who could? They'd be the right ones, not "the CIA." At any rate, we DO have that blank spot on visit results from 12/21 to 2/2, so I'm sure something is amiss there and it's the BKA who never told us what, and who strangely sat on the printout for another six months (IF they even head it by February).

I actually suspect Erac will turn up relatively clean, but if you could map out who she's worked with, some of those people would be highly interesting. I for one will not be doing this.

Oh and hey, on the time thing again. I took a closer look at ol' 1060
again the link: http://www.mebocom-defilee.ch/jpg/shed-1.jpg
By this the plane had loaded primarily at gate B044 from around 15:20Z to 16:something, loaded its last two items at gate B041 shortly after 16:31, and then (not shown here) departed the airport at 16:53, which would be Z also I presume, so 17:53 local in Frankfurt. The luggage movements are of course marked as in Z time, while a time at top in discussion is not marked Z.

Would it be fair to divide this document into two basic blocks - the main data with its columns and rows, and a top portion with overview info? Well I'll do so. So the 1932 time is in the top section. I check it for any other times therein. The line above this looks like search terms or whatever, no times. The line below has handwritten labels I'm sure I could make out if the words were familiar. Looks like flight no., loading gates, loading start time? (1512) and EF 1652. These are clearly times and neither is marked Z.

Just talked myself back into post-explosion printup. Was that wrong?

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Old 19th November 2009, 04:33 PM   #186
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Oh for goodness sake. I'm sorry I was right and obnoxious at the same time.

This is just a small part of the puzzle, but it's important to feel out the right curves so we know (best guess) it's true shape and what else fits in with it. In case I didn't make myself clearly enough last night, I think its shape is post-explosion since 1932 is UTC time.

* UTC is generally standard for the airline industry. I'm no expert, but I'd suspect their records would all be done in that.
* Two other apparent UTC times - start loading (BF, 1512) and end loading (EF, 1652) match well with luggage movements beneath them, which are in UTC (the Z)
* Finally the Zeist court's Production 1062, unspecified “documentary evidence” that “the aircraft used for PA103A […] left for London at 1653.” Local or Z? One minute after the “EF” if Z, (so push-off from gate) or actual departure an hour later? Clearly they mean UTC time, as 1653 local would be 1553Z, when the plane was still loading at the first gate.

And explained again in a new blog post:
http://12-7-9-11.blogspot.com/2009/1...lism-here.html
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Old 19th November 2009, 06:05 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
Oh for goodness sake. I'm sorry I was right and obnoxious at the same time.

This is just a small part of the puzzle, but it's important to feel out the right curves so we know (best guess) it's true shape and what else fits in with it. In case I didn't make myself clearly enough last night, I think its shape is post-explosion since 1932 is UTC time.

* UTC is generally standard for the airline industry. I'm no expert, but I'd suspect their records would all be done in that.
* Two other apparent UTC times - start loading (BF, 1512) and end loading (EF, 1652) match well with luggage movements beneath them, which are in UTC (the Z)
* Finally the Zeist court's Production 1062, unspecified “documentary evidence” that “the aircraft used for PA103A […] left for London at 1653.” Local or Z? One minute after the “EF” if Z, (so push-off from gate) or actual departure an hour later? Clearly they mean UTC time, as 1653 local would be 1553Z, when the plane was still loading at the first gate.

And explained again in a new blog post:
http://12-7-9-11.blogspot.com/2009/1...lism-here.html
Well, that is indeed quite a post CL! And thanks for the graphical blog post!

As I have mentioned before, your ability to formulate a clear picture from a plethora of opaque details, is most certainly appreciated. I am constantly throwing these inconsistentcies and contradictions around, and frustratingly, all too often, reach a point of some sort of mental impasse. Of course, maybe, just maybe, something else will eventually transpire which will alter, once again, the veracity and moreso the realistic, story relating to Mrs Erac's divine evidence. As it stands however, there may well have been ample opportunity for other forms of intervention.

Quote:
She heard of the loss of PA103 during the evening of that day and realised that PA103A had departed during her period on duty. She was interested in the amount of baggage..
Okay, I have never worked in the airport industry, but are people who do of such mindset that, on hearing of a plane crash, this is their first thought? Possibly?

Quote:
...decided to take a printout of the information as to baggage held on the computer in case it should contain any useful information.
Well, surely any information would be useful. How could one know what might and might not be useful if kept secret? How unfortunate the holiday was booked during the 2/3 weeks subsequent, when the German, British and US are scrambling around desperately hunting for documentation that was non-existent by 23rd.

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Old 19th November 2009, 06:22 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Buncrana View Post
Well, that is indeed quite a post CL! And thanks for the graphical blog post!
Thanks for the kind words.

Quote:
Okay, I have never worked in the airport industry, but are people who do of such mindset that, on hearing of a plane crash, this is their first thought? Possibly?
It's such a first thought I'd expect several people to have it right after getting the news. That only she did so and it would take a night to think about it is an odd story. I'm not sure if that's what she said however.

Quote:
Well, surely any information would be useful. How could one know what might and might not be useful if kept secret? How unfortunate the holiday was booked during the 2/3 weeks subsequent,
Indeed, quite a decision on her part, perhaps a little out of line. I will investigate this! Ah, it doesn't say much to ME, so it's just a sovenir now! The holiday vacation seems just a likely cover to take advanyage of, but it also seems a long one. Three weeks is only an estimate I've heard around, but the only hard date we have, Feb 2 for reported BKA visits to the airport, indicate a hand-over date closer to Jan 31, so I think we're looking at four weeks or more.

Quote:
when the German, British and US are scrambling around desperately hunting for documentation that was non-existent by 23rd.
Which 23rd? We have Michael Jones vouching for PanAm's loading papers for 103A missing by January 23, and you found that article about police visits close to Dec 23, which also apparently came up empty-handed.

The question that no one has answered - not the Court, Mr. Marquise, Henderson, Cannistraro, the various Lords, special agents, prosecuting attorneys... How does a whole airport's baggage record just disappear? And when it reappears in someone's locker, why is it still considered good evidence? Why are we seeing different indications in the evidence about how and when and why this printout was made? Why must such an important, confusing, un-asked question have such an inconsistent, varyingly implausible answer?
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Old 20th November 2009, 03:20 AM   #189
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I seem to be thinking like a zombie this morning, so pray ignore anything I say that's patently ridiculous.

Are you sure they'd do all these local records in GMT (UST)? All the clocks in the airport and the departure and arrival boards with flight times are in local time. Whenever I book flights, all times of departures and arrivals are given in local time. (Why does the flight take four hours to get there and only two hours to come back? Oh, mother!!!) The airport workers' watches would all be in local time.

We have the timing for the bag going through station 206 as 13.07, on that actual printout. The finish time for KM180 going through the station was given on the hand-written worksheet as either 13.10 or 13.16. (Or did it say 1.10 or 1.16, I don't remember.) We were told that the coder probably took these times from his watch, which might have been a few minutes out in comparison to the computer clocks.

This doesn't sound at all like a system where the computer clock was running GMT while "real life" in the airport (which I would expect to include the staff's watches) was running an hour ahead.

Tell me again, slowly, why you think the printout is in GMT.

Rolfe.
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Old 20th November 2009, 04:54 AM   #190
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OK, you say Z definitely means GMT? (I thought Z was just "Zeit", which is just "time" in German, I didn't realise it had any other connotation.)

Sorry, zombie here.

Can you find the link to the scan of the worksheet? Would the clerk doing the coding set his watch to GMT? As we're told that the worksheet times were probably taken from his watch? Wouldn't having flight times and announcements and all that in local time, and the baggage computer system (which only relates to the airport itself after all) in a different time zone, be impossibly confusing?

Nevertheless, if we assume that the 19.32 time is indeed GMT, that would be 29 minutes after the plane exploded. Is it actually likely that anyone at Frankfurt, in the baggage handling department, would know about it as quickly as that, and instantly leap to make this printout?

Of course I don't know what the reaction was within the airline and airport systems to news that a plane had gone down, or how fast it travelled. I know ATC saw the plane disintegrate on the radar at 7.03, that's for sure, and I know it was a news flash on Channel 4 TV at about 7.55 (because I saw it), but that's about it. How fast would the news get to Frankfurt? How fast would it get to the baggage control computer centre?

What would be the reaction of people when they heard the news?

Shock, obviously. Heightened excitement. Horror. However, how soon before it would occur to anyone that Frankfurt itself might be involved? The plane took off from Heathrow, and it was a plane that had landed there much earlier in the day from the USA. Maid of the Seas herself hadn't been near Frankfurt.

Of the 243 passengers on board, only 28 embarked at Frankfurt, and another 21 were routed through Frankfurt to the flight from other airports. Indeed, the Frankfurt flight had been designated PA103A, but it doesn't seem to me that it would have been immediately obvious that it was particularly involved - not in the first half hour or so. (Probably the first 15 minutes or so - the news wouldn't have got to Frankfurt instantaneously.)

I could understand a standing order within the airline industry to the effect that whenever a plane goes down, immediate steps must be taken to secure baggage loading records from any plane that might have connected to it. But there seems to have been no such order. The news of the crash didn't immediately see teams of baggage controllers leaping into action at Heathrow and points east to secure the data as per standing orders. We don't even hear about anyone (at Frankfurt or anywhere else) shouting "OMG, that could be a bomb, we have to make sure all the records are preserved!"

What we hear about is Bogomira, on her own initiative, within (say) 15 minutes of hearing the news, just quietly making a printout "just in case", and hiding it away.

Does this sound realistic to anyone?

I can believe either of the tales we were originally told. The Conspiracy Files one is more believable, that there was a batch of routine printouts that Bogomira was about to throw away, but her eye was caught by the PA103A one as she realised that just over a third of the passengers on that plane had been on the crashed jet. She therefore put it away in her locker as her own little personal memento of the tragedy. What I don't understand about that is why a batch of routine printouts would be made in the evening, pretty much at close of play, after the planes had departed, only to be thrown in the bin the following day. What was the purpose of that?

The other tale is still believable though. By the following day, pennies might have been beginning to drop, even though the definite connection to Frankfurt (through the blast-damaged AVE4041) wasn't made until after Christmas. Certainly, if the news report is to be believed, police were already looking at Frankfurt by Christmas Eve, apparently simply because 49 passengers on PA301 had come from there. So possibly, even as early as the 22nd, before the police showed up (which should have been 23rd or 24th according to that report), she might have thought of making a printout "just in case".

Then, we suppose, she went on holiday before the police showed up, and wasn't there at the initial visit, which seems to have been as soon as the following day, when the apparently drew a blank, with the computer records already purged?

OK, maybe the news report was in error, and the police didn't actually visit the airport til the following week. Sunday was Christmas Day after all. Maybe they didn't get there till the Tuesday. Still less than a week after the crash. And they found everything deleted. Bogomira was on holday so missed the huge fuss and the recriminations and the frustrated policemen searching the bins - which surely must have happened, although we haven't heard a single word about it.

Goodness, wasn't it just as well she did the printout, though I'd have thought any normal person would have expected the whole lot to be secured in fairly short order. But it's only some time after she gets back from holiday that she discovers that in fact the rcords were purged before the police got there, and volunteers the saved printout.

I'm honestly struggling here.

I do have one little thought. Supposing Bogomira was well aware that there were shenanigans going on that might motivate a cover-up, but felt that a crashed Jumbo Jet was too big a deal to cover up merely on account of some drug smuggling. So she decided to make a quiet printout just in case that happened, and after her return she found out that's exactly what had happened?

Still doesn't really jell for me. I could see someone doing that the following morning, but to rush to do it within minutes of finding out the terrible news, with no idea what the hell had actually happened, at (for her) half past eight at night - er, really? Also, it doesn't entirely fit with the Frankfurt police sitting on it for quite so long, which suggests further intent to conceal. Or maybe it does.

Zombie here.

There could well be a perfectly simple, straightforward and reasonable explanation of all this, but at the moment it smells very strange to me.

Rolfe.
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Old 20th November 2009, 04:57 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I seem to be thinking like a zombie this morning, so pray ignore anything I say that's patently ridiculous.
Ignore something? Ridiculous! No, seriously, it's pretty simple but I'm a crummy teacher. It's true tho I'm right and hey, Happy Birthday!
ohno doggie!

Quote:
Are you sure they'd do all these local records in GMT (UST)?
Not necessarily, but it seems likely. I've studied a few air-related things that tend to use GMT for everything - accident reports, FDR data from US air crashes, etc. NTSB uses GMT as standard, British obviously would, for the stuff that covers large areas, actual flights, etc. It's a coincidence I think 103's explosion time given in GMT as usual was also about exactly at the Greenwich Mean itself local time.

Local airport ops, it might go either way. Passengers might get a wall of clocks, local and neighboring zones, employees in the break room and punch clock maybe local, the luggage system ??? I'm guessing on all this. How does it work in China? Etc, I dunno. On it's own, the time zone is not evident. It's in the clues.

Quote:
We have the timing for the bag going through station 206 as 13.07, on that actual printout. The finish time for KM180 going through the station was given on the hand-written worksheet as either 13.10 or 13.16. (Or did it say 1.10 or 1.16, I don't remember.) We were told that the coder probably took these times from his watch, which might have been a few minutes out in comparison to the computer clocks.
Huh, true that's what we've heard. Hadn't lines those up yet. To be sure I double checked and Z (zulu) means GMT or Universal time. So ... they set their watches to GMT? Maybe they switch back to local only as they drive home? Either that or the coders just corrected it to GMT in writing, but 1307 is Z, they've all SAID the two line up, and normal operations would run better if these logs were all on the same system consistently.

I do see where there's a CT possibility here... May be too small a rabbit to chase, but...

Quote:
Tell me again, slowly, why you think the printout is in GMT.

Rolfe.
Certainly. I'm doing this very slowly, but the best way is to make sure you read it that way. First, let's ignore if anything in the printout is or isn't in GMT or local time. To be honest I haven't looked it over from all sides. The main thing is that all times in the printout are internally consistent. They're in the same time zone, whether the Z is there or not.

So, our 8849 gets coded at 1307, stored and then sent to gate 44 at 1523. Something in the top portion called BF reads 1512, so this could be start of loading. Items start going to 44 five minutes later, get loaded we presume, as late as about 1615. The plane moves to gate 41, two items there after 1631. Something called EF, (end loading?) reads 1652. The court had "departure" one minute after that. That too is consistent, if they mean push-off before departure (app. 1700?). The printout was made 2:40 after this if all times are consistent. Do we agree on that?

Now, there are other ways to look at it from there - eg, how does this line up with Heathrow? 103 took off about 18:25 UTC/GMT/local. If the Frankfurt departure of 103A was around 1700 in GMT, this would allow about 1 1/2 hr to get stuff to London and on the other plane. If that was local time, there's 2 1/2 hours. Either makes sense to me.

So we're down to which of those times to London makes more sense, how standard GMT is for record-keeping, how reliably Z means UTC, and whether a 30 min post-explosion search or 2-hours-after routine loading report makes more sense.

Again, happy birthday, and thanks for taking the time to sort this out.

ETA: It might not have helped, I suck at this. Just think about the times until it makes sense.

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Old 20th November 2009, 05:03 AM   #192
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dbl pst

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Old 20th November 2009, 05:05 AM   #193
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Z - Zulu? OK, I just googled it. Never heard of this before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinated_Universal_Time

Quote:
UTC is also the time system used in aviation. Weather forecastings, flight plans, air traffic control clearances, and maps all use UTC (also colloquially referred to as "Zulu Time") to avoid confusion about time zones and daylight saving time.

Look, "time" in German is "Zeit".

Are you sure the Z on the printouts isn't just confirming that these numbers are recording a time? Was this "zulu" thing widespread enough to be in probable use in Germany in 1988?

Rolfe.
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Old 20th November 2009, 05:14 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Z - Zulu? OK, I just googled it. Never heard of this before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinated_Universal_Time

Look, "time" in German is "Zeit".

Are you sure the Z on the printouts isn't just confirming that these numbers are recording a time? Was this "zulu" thing widespread enough to be in probable use in Germany in 1988?

Rolfe.
I don't know the history. It came up as a standard reference in US naval reports I looked at from the 1960s, re: the Mediterranean. Zeit does make some sense, just so you know "yeah, this is a time." It's also apparently optional if all times are in Z, cause some are labeled and some not.

Here's a bit on a non-British crash you know:
Quote:
The aircraft departed from Rio de Janeiro-Galeão International Airport on 31 May 2009 at 19:03 local time (22:03 UTC), with a scheduled arrival at Paris-Charles de Gaulle Airport approximately 11 hours later.[1]
The last verbal contact with the aircraft was at 01:33 UTC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447
On the ground, referencing local and Z, in the air it's on Z time. You could well configure your luggage system to be on Z or local. So far it seems to me Z means Z, and its times are pretty in line with the above ones.
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Old 20th November 2009, 05:15 AM   #195
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OK, reading what you're explaining (I didn't know a lot of that), I think we have a confusion between this "zulu" thing, which I see is indeed used for the international aspects of aviation, and the German word "zeit".

As far as I know, airPORTS work on their own local time. When a plane lands, it seems to me to enter into "local time" space. Air traffic control, flight plans and clearances I can understand being standardised to GMT. But the ground staff, the airport itself, so far as I know all these things work on local time. Baggage handling systems, being tied to the ground, being part of the airport and not the moving aeroplane thing, I would expect to work on local time. It would surely be hugely confusing if they didn't.

I think "Z" on the printouts is just an abbreviation for "zeit".

Which gets us back to that printout having been made half an hour before the crash.

Rolfe.

ETA: Cross-posting again, but note that the report you quote is absolutely clear in using "UTC" to denote the time standard being used. I still doubt that a ground-based baggage system would use anything other than local time, or that a German system would use "Z" as an abbreviation for "UTC" when it could be ambiguous (as I said, I just assumed it was "zeit", and wiki does say that "zulu" is colloquial).
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Old 20th November 2009, 05:29 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
OK, reading what you're explaining (I didn't know a lot of that), I think we have a confusion between this "zulu" thing, which I see is indeed used for the international aspects of aviation, and the German word "zeit".

As far as I know, airPORTS work on their own local time. When a plane lands, it seems to me to enter into "local time" space. Air traffic control, flight plans and clearances I can understand being standardised to GMT. But the ground staff, the airport itself, so far as I know all these things work on local time. Baggage handling systems, being tied to the ground, being part of the airport and not the moving aeroplane thing, I would expect to work on local time. It would surely be hugely confusing if they didn't.

I think "Z" on the printouts is just an abbreviation for "zeit".

Which gets us back to that printout having been made half an hour before the crash.

Rolfe.

ETA: Cross-posting again, but note that the report you quote is absolutely clear in using "UTC" to denote the time standard being used. I still doubt that a ground-based baggage system would use anything other than local time, or that a German system would use "Z" as an abbreviation for "UTC" when it could be ambiguous (as I said, I just assumed it was "zeit", and wiki does say that "zulu" is colloquial).
Fair enough, I hadn't considered even the Z numbers and all might be local with Z just meaning time. I don't buy it yet but I'm open. I do think all printout times are in the same zone, and if we can agree on that it's a plus. (does all that fit well enough you suspect it's all consistent?) Some aviation professionals, old-timers, especially, could help here. I've taken these questions before to the science forum, stripped of context, to establish basic facts. I might now if I weren't bout to crash.
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Old 20th November 2009, 05:36 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
It's true tho I'm right

Maybe. You haven't convinced me yet.

Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
and hey, Happy Birthday!
ohno doggie!

Thank you very much indeed.

Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
If the Frankfurt departure of 103A was around 1700 in GMT, this would allow about 1 1/2 hr to get stuff to London and on the other plane. If that was local time, there's 2 1/2 hours. Either makes sense to me.

PA103A landed at Heathrow at 5.40pm GMT. However, it was late. I'm not sure how late, or whether it was delayed at the Frankfurt end or by the Heathrow holding pattern. Flight time would normally be about an hour and a half. (I just checked the BA web site for flights on that route, where I know "all times are local", and I'm coming up with a normal flight time of 1 hour 40 minutes.)

So if it was delayed at the Frankfurt end, with a normal flight time, it would have taken off at 4pm GMT. If it was meant to leave earlier, it's possible the bags would have been on board earlier than that. It might have left earlier than that if it was delayed by ATC at Heathrow. It couldn't have left significantly later than 4pm GMT, which is 5pm local time Frankfurt, because there's a limit to how much time you can make up on such a short flight.

Frankfurt departure of PA103 must have been close to 17:00 Frankfurt time, or 16:00 GMT. It could not have been 17:00 GMT.

Does that help? Still zombie here.

Rolfe.
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Old 20th November 2009, 05:49 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
PA103A landed at Heathrow at 5.40pm GMT. However, it was late. I'm not sure how late, or whether it was delayed at the Frankfurt end or by the Heathrow holding pattern. Flight time would normally be about an hour and a half. (I just checked the BA web site for flights on that route, where I know "all times are local", and I'm coming up with a normal flight time of 1 hour 40 minutes.)
Hmmm... It arrived that early? Yeah, 1653 would have to be local then... Do you get less zombie if I'm getting zombie now? The thought that I did that whole post... sorry, too late and tired to concede anything now but I'm puzzling again. Tomorrow I'll decide if I was wrong.
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Old 20th November 2009, 06:00 AM   #199
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Early??!!

That was only 20 minutes before PA103 left! I was astonished that they got the Jumbo loaded with that baggage and the passengers transferred in such a short time. Twenty minutes is a very tight connection indeed for an airport, especially one as huge as Heathrow, and for an international flight.

I think that was why the baggage wasn't x-rayed at Heathrow. Possibly. Or it might have been SOP to rely on the Frankfurt security, and assume that nothing could penetrate it at Heathrow in the short turn-round time.

Nevertheless, although PA103A was indeed fairly late, and as a result they only had 20 minutes to do the job, they made it, passengers and bags and all, and PA103 pushed off from the Heathrow gate on time at a minute or two after 6pm (it took off at 6.25 and blew up at 7.03).

I was guessing about an hour and a half flight time just based on knowing the approximate distance, but when I checked it on the BA web site I found that if I wanted to fly that route tomorrow the flight time would be 1 hour 40 minutes. I assume it would have been about the same in 1988.

Rolfe.
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Old 20th November 2009, 06:32 AM   #200
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I notice a few other Zs on the printout, and in these case there are annotated explanations of what they mean - I suspect these might have been made by the original German investigators, though they could be Bollier's work if the image originates from his web site.

VZ is Vorziel (previous goal)
ZN is Ziel neu (new goal)
ZA is Ziel alt (old goal)

Z in these cases is "ziel", which means "goal". Not necessarily destination airport, more likely the place in the system the item was headed for. I also see "ziel zuweisung" as an explanatory note further along, which is "assigned goal".

I think that's more consistent with the single "Zs" by the obvious time stamps being "zeit" than "zulu".

Rolfe.
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