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Tags Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi , Lockerbie bombing , Pan Am 103

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Old 4th September 2009, 05:00 PM   #201
Rolfe
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I'm conscious of the number of posts I've made in this thread, but it's a useful way of getting things straight as I get my head round them.

I can see I've made a number of errors on the way past, such as the number of bags on the Malta-Frankfurt flight (it was 55, not 15), and the amount of money offered by Iran to whoever would down a US airliner ($10 million, and it was 5.9 million that was paid into a German bank account controlled by the PFLP-GC from Iran very shortly after the crash, and yes, a credible source is cited for that).

I just hope nobody is using me as a reference source!

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Old 4th September 2009, 05:06 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by ricbritain View Post
Did Megrahi actually have representation at his trial? If so then surely they would have had access to the same info as members of this forum and would have used to to make their case.

In case it might help, here is one account of the way the trial was conducted. It's written by a senior lawyer. It begins by talking about the grounds for appeal, but deals with the original trial later on.

http://lockerbiecase.blogspot.com/20...july-2007.html

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Old 4th September 2009, 05:35 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's quite tricky in another respect as well. Assuming the bomb was made on the continent, how was it transported to Heathrow? Remember, this was before the Channel Tunnel. You'd really have to take it by car, on a ferry. How easy would that be to do, and leave no trace? Why not get it on board closer to home?

Hmmm, I note Paul Foot covers that. He cites an article in Der Spiegel, from August 1997, reporting that an Iranian named Mesbahi had made statements to the effect that the bomb was taken from Frankfurt to London by air, in pieces. The bomb was then assembled in London and loaded on to Maid of the Seas.

Of course if the Palestinians did this, the bomb would have had to be introduced at Heathrow. Their timers were set to go off 40 minutes after takeoff. If they had introduced it at Frankfurt it would have detonated over France. (I'm guessing that the whole point of the exercise was to down an aircraft headed for America.)

If that is the case, it suggests the Mebo timer was planted, as has been alleged by several sources. The top-secret document that all the fuss was about (the reason the appeal was delayed) was apparently related to the Mebo timer. The Crown was last seen refusing to release it on grounds of national security, with stuff about "damaging Britain's relations with a friendly power." I wonder if we'll ever find out what that's all about?

If this version is correct, then it highlights another coincidence. The apparent record at Frankfurt suggesting that an unaccompanied bag might have gone on to PA103A from Malta. The very place where the clothes in the suitcase were definitely bought.

If on the other hand the Mebo timer is genuine, it means that the Palestinians are much less likely to have been involved - why would they sudddenly use a different type of timer? If the Mebo timer was the trigger, the 40-minute detonation (consistent with an ice-cube timer) is the coincidence. Also, that the Palestinian cell were making radio-cassette bombs out of almost identical Toshiba machines, that very autumn. In Frankfurt. And the 5.9 million they got from the Iranians.

Occam says he doesn't want to play any more.

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Old 4th September 2009, 09:37 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Rolfe
If this version is correct, then it highlights another coincidence. The apparent record at Frankfurt suggesting that an unaccompanied bag might have gone on to PA103A from Malta. The very place where the clothes in the suitcase were definitely bought.
Is this coincidence any greater than that of there being a number of CIA operatives on PA103A? How many unaccompanied bags were in flight at that time? Wasn't it a result of Lockerbie and a few other similar attacks that lead to a change in rules with respect to unaccompanied luggage?
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Old 5th September 2009, 07:25 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by ricbritain View Post
Did Megrahi actually have representation at his trial? If so then surely they would have had access to the same info as members of this forum and would have used to to make their case.

Hmmmm, I still need to read a lot more. I note the UN observer was highy critical of the conduct of Megrahi's defence.

Some sources have praised the defence for shredding the credibility of Giaka and Bollier. However, Koechler takes a different view, particularly as regards the handling of the first appeal.

Quote:
9.One of the most serious shortcomings of the appeal proceedings (as of the trial proceedings) was that the appellant did not have adequate defense – a circumstance that weighs heavily in an adversarial judicial system where the fairness of the trial depends mainly on the equality of arms between prosecution and defense. Because of this situation, the requirements of Art. 6 (“Right to a fair trial”) of the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms were not met.

10.The lack of adequate representation of the appellant became evident in the handling of the defense case during the appeal in several respects:
(a) In spite of the often vague and entirely circumstantial evidence, the Defense, in its Note of Appeal as well as during the appeal hearings, did not make the point that there was insufficient evidence in law to convict the appellant;
(b) in the course of the appeal hearings, the Defense Counsel expressly disavowed any reliance on Par. b of Section 106 (3) of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 which states that an appellant may bring under review any miscarriage of justice, which may include such miscarriage based on “the jury’s having returned a verdict which no reasonable jury, properly directed, could have returned;”
(c) the Defense did not raise any of the technical issues, particularly in regard to the timer used in the explosive device, on which new information had become available since the Verdict on 31 January 2001;
(d) the Defense further did not raise the issue of Mr. Anthony Gauci, key witness of the Prosecution, having been invited repeatedly for holiday trips to Scotland by the Scottish police. This information was available before the beginning of the appeal hearings; it calls into question the trustworthiness and reliability of the prosecution witness, on whose testimony the verdict substantially depended;
(e) the Defense did not raise the issue of why important evidence about the breaking of a lock at the luggage storage area at Heathrow airport had disappeared from the police records and why it was not made available to the trial court; instead, the Defense Counsel stated at the beginning of the appeal hearings that there was no fault on the part of the Prosecution in regard to the non-availability of this important evidence. It is hard to understand why, in an adversarial system, the Defense should come to the defense of the Prosecution on such a crucial matter which could cast doubt over the entire strategy of the prosecution;
(f) there was an obvious antagonism between the Defense Team and the “defense support team” represented in the courtroom by the Libyan defense lawyer, a situation which seriously hampered the efficiency of the defense strategy;
(g) as an apparent consequence of this antagonism and of a lack of co-ordination on the part of the defense, additional material in support of the defense case was collected only after the appeal hearings had started, i.e. at a time when it was much too late to include any additional information in the “grounds of appeal;”
(h) as a result of this, a chaotic situation ensued which also was referred to in the British media; bills of members of the defense support team were not paid, which created the impression of a defense operation in disarray. All of this was detrimental to the rights of the appellant under the European Human Rights Convention.

11.In its Note of Appeal and presentations during the hearings, the Defense failed to raise the issue of substantial evidence having been withheld during the trial and the judges’ apparent satisfaction with this situation (see Par. 7 of the undersigned’s report on the trial). [....] The Defense in the present appeal completely failed to raise this basic issue and thus gave up one of the main legal instruments at its disposal.

12.The Defense further failed to raise the issue of the fairness of the trial in regard to the basic requirements of the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms – a fact which may seriously compromise the appellant’s ability to eventually claim his rights at the Privy Council and/or at the European Court of Human Rights. Indeed, because of its actions during the trial the Defense itself may be seen as part of the problem, complicit in the lack of fairness of the proceedings – this may explain why this basic issue was not raised in the course of the appeal proceedings.
Bizarre.

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Old 5th September 2009, 08:58 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Bobby View Post
Is this coincidence any greater than that of there being a number of CIA operatives on PA103A? How many unaccompanied bags were in flight at that time? Wasn't it a result of Lockerbie and a few other similar attacks that lead to a change in rules with respect to unaccompanied luggage?

Coincidences? The affair is full of them. While it would be nice to devise a neat Agatha Christie-style explanation that ties everything in, I suspect it's impossible.

I don't know what to think about the CIA operatives. Maybe it was pure coincidence. Maybe CIA operatives travel transatlantic a lot in connection with their jobs, so there was a fair chance of hitting on a plane with some of them on it. Maybe the bombers knew about the CIA operatives' movements, and deliberately chose the plane for that reason. And maybe one of the wilder CTs, which asserts that the bombing was an inside job designed to murder Charles McKee, because he was returning to the USA to blow the whistle on a "drugs for hostages" operation being run by Oliver North, is actually true!

How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?

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Old 5th September 2009, 03:37 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Coincidences? The affair is full of them. While it would be nice to devise a neat Agatha Christie-style explanation that ties everything in, I suspect it's impossible.

I don't know what to think about the CIA operatives. Maybe it was pure coincidence. Maybe CIA operatives travel transatlantic a lot in connection with their jobs, so there was a fair chance of hitting on a plane with some of them on it. Maybe the bombers knew about the CIA operatives' movements, and deliberately chose the plane for that reason.
This is at least conceivable, but strikes me as unlikely. I think sheer coincidence is the most conservative explanation. The CIA could have been smuggling drugs on the flight or something, but I imagine just about any documents a CIA officer might be carrying would be of a nature such that the CIA wouldn't want them blowing all over the landscape, so even if the CIA was on the scene quickly that isn't necessarily proof they were up to no good.

Quote:
And maybe one of the wilder CTs, which asserts that the bombing was an inside job designed to murder Charles McKee, because he was returning to the USA to blow the whistle on a "drugs for hostages" operation being run by Oliver North, is actually true!
This seems a bit like the "9/11 was an inside job" hypothesis, in that the upside of 9/11 or Lockerbie would certainly be of interest to neocons or people who wanted McKee dead, but the downside risk of actually organising it would be so enormous that any sane conspirator would choose another method.
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Old 5th September 2009, 03:44 PM   #208
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I'm inclined to agree. The idea that this was an inside job has no evidence to support it at all. There is some evidence that those "in the know" may have known in advance that the plane was going to explode, and some VIPs were pulled off the flight. However, it's weak. There are a couple of documentaries that make the case, but it's not wildly convincing, and almost entirely hearsay.

It's not the craziest theory though. There's a vocal contingent of blog commentators who simply assert that Arabs would not/ could not do such a thing, and it was obviously the Jews that did it to make the Arabs look bad.



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Old 6th September 2009, 01:50 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Kevin_Lowe View Post
This seems a bit like the "9/11 was an inside job" hypothesis, in that the upside of 9/11 or Lockerbie would certainly be of interest to neocons or people who wanted McKee dead, but the downside risk of actually organising it would be so enormous that any sane conspirator would choose another method.
Agreed. And resembling the Lady Di CT for implausibility.
Unfortunately there's enough vague and conflicting detail surrounding the Lockerbie bombing that it's prime material for CTists.

For my own part I'd go with political and economic expediency as the motivation for framing the Libyans. That is, replacing the most likely guilty (and original) suspects - Syria,Iran,PPLO - with a much more productive suspect, i.e. Libya. The shenanigans can then be organised with an adequate degreee of plausible deniability.
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Old 6th September 2009, 04:45 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
For my own part I'd go with political and economic expediency as the motivation for framing the Libyans. That is, replacing the most likely guilty (and original) suspects - Syria,Iran,PPLO - with a much more productive suspect, i.e. Libya. The shenanigans can then be organised with an adequate degreee of plausible deniability.

That's my feeling too. The trouble is, there's good evidence of other shenanigans surrounding that plane - CIA operatives, drug smuggling and interference with the evidence right from day one - that you keep tripping over this and getting drawn into wilder hypothesising. It's a lot more likely that this was coincidence though, just like the "Helsinki warning".

Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
[....] it's prime material for CTists.

That's why I was surprised to find nothing on this board discussing it when I started this thread over two years ago. I've found stuff since then, but even so, the CT enthusiasts seem keener on proclaiming "it was the Jews!" than looking at the shenanigans for which there is evidence.
  • There's good reason to believe the Palestinians did it, aided by Syria, and paid by Iran (in revenge for the shooting down of the Airbus by the Vincennes).
  • There's good reason to believe that Megrahi was deliberately framed by the CIA.
  • There's good reason to beileve that the CIA operatives on the plane were carrying stuff the authorities didn't want falling into the wrong hands.
  • There's some reason to believe drugs were being smuggled into the USA on that plane.
  • There's an implausible theory floating around that the bombing was an insde job, or at least known about in advance by the US authorities, which has made it into a couple of TV documentaries.
  • There's absolutely no evidence to connect it to Israel or Mossad or anything like that.
So, let's just run round the Internet declaring that Israel is the prime suspect and it's just obvious it was a false flag operation by Mossad designed to make Arab nations look bad.



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Old 7th September 2009, 09:45 AM   #211
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A square peg.

So effectively the Libyans were a square peg forced to fit a round hole as all other avenues would have been less suitable to the US. Were there no other nations involved in the trial process that would have needed coercing? Anticipating the sanctions afterwards was there nothing at all to be lost in the inevitable situation? Did other nations, including the US, not lose out on the oil business due to the embargo?

I am not saying that everyone is wrong as you have all obviously looked quite deeply into this case. I just want to be sure that this isn't a very convincing CT.
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Old 7th September 2009, 11:47 AM   #212
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My default position has always tended to be that the investigating authorities went after Libya after failing to find the sort of evidence against Syria/Iran that they would have needed to bring a case to court. Just as has happened so often in the past, when "getting a conviction" was the important thing, never mind if you've got the right person or not.

Certainly, that is probably the explanation for the astonishing decision of the judges at Camp Zeist. The political pressure to get at least one conviction out of that three-ring circus seems to have blinded them to the incongruity of their judgement. The Scottish court system was quite inordinately puffed-up with pride about the whole damn charade, and that's not a good mind-set. Also, the two defendants had been charged years previously, and the world had been assured that the evidence against them was "incontrovertible". To have found no case to answer (which frankly there wasn't) after all that - it was probably too horrible to contemplate. Possibly even for the defence team, who seem to have made some inexplicable blunders, especially at the appeal.

However, the more I look at the evidence, the more questions arise. The amount of evidence that had to be ignored to make the case against Libya was remarkable. The explanation that in 1989 it became not expedient to pursue the case against Iran and Syria, and that in 1990 it was decided to manufacture a case against Libya, is very compelling. And the only countries involved were America and Britain. With Maggie Thatcher almost having an orgasm if Ronnie Reagan spoke to her, America had it pretty much its own way. Given that they announced to the world that they had incontrovertible evidence against Libya (which of course couldn't come to court as the defendants could not be extradited), who was going to contradict them?

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Old 7th September 2009, 12:05 PM   #213
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Minor nitpick there, Reagan left office a month after the Lockerbie bombing. It would have to be Bush Senior tickling Maggie's fancy, which I'm sure he was eminently capable of doing.
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Old 7th September 2009, 12:32 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
It would have to be Bush Senior tickling Maggie's fancy, which I'm sure he was eminently capable of doing.
Fetch the mind-bleach!
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Old 7th September 2009, 12:44 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm conscious of the number of posts I've made in this thread, but it's a useful way of getting things straight as I get my head round them.
Not only number but size, my word. One imagines you'd be nearing the edges of what's available or something. I do know a bit where you're coming from, having started a few threads where I just go off on a point in major detail, usually to make a set point but also to discover along the way how good a point it really is. It's a great way to learn and study a subject, but you usually suffer a lack of outside input and criticism as people stand back and go "what's that raver's problem?" Least how it seems when it happens to me.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
That's my feeling too. The trouble is, there's good evidence of other shenanigans surrounding that plane - CIA operatives, drug smuggling and interference with the evidence right from day one - that you keep tripping over this and getting drawn into wilder hypothesising. It's a lot more likely that this was coincidence though, just like the "Helsinki warning".
Coincidences do happen, I have to remind myself. But not everything that cold be is, especially in some cases. Is this one of them? I dunno. A lot of unknowns tho (how quick do CIAs get on scene usually??), etc.

Whatever the actual consiracy of the bombing, based on what I've seen here, al Megrahi was definitely framed and not guilty. On the actual perps, just because there was an original lead doesn't mean that was correct either. Does the CIA ever get fingered up-front?

But on the longer-term implications of the blame-shifting, that's interesting to me. I'm hazy on what positive attraction there was in smacking lybia with the bill, but I'm sure reasons existed. From what it seems, Iran was de-emphasized to not aggravate them as attention came on Iraq. That war sort of never ended (to count the sanctions-n-bombings dead or to hear Bush/Cheney speak in 2001-3), and of course is culminating around now, perhaps almost over, with British and US troops mostly gone. and while Iran stayed a definite bad-guy state worthy of blaming for a bombing, we haven't been shooting at them for the last 20 years that Iraq's been the project.

Now at around the same time coalition forces are leaving Iraq, or trying to, al Megrahi is released, discussion resumed, Iran belatedly taking the blame,
not long after their "election" debacle... Coincidence?

Oh, and on why other CTists aren't involved much, I think that it's too boring and not CIA-blaming enough. I'ts all over which foreign non-white terrorists were responsible, although there is a frame-up and deceit, they payoff just isn't worth the work.
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Old 7th September 2009, 12:49 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by ricbritain View Post
....
I just want to be sure that this isn't a very convincing CT.
And quite right. But, as we've discussed, the possible CT 'accusation' arises the moment you start to move away from known facts and into the realms of political motives, devious schemes and speculation. I've done this myself, truth told, which is weak.

But what appears to be true (though I'm willing to listen to evidence to the contrary) is that the case against Megrahi is worse than tissue-thin, it's plain disgraceful.

Where we should go from there I don't know, but speculation is almost inevitable. Then things are likely to get debatable, which simply clouds the basic issue.
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Old 7th September 2009, 12:56 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
Minor nitpick there, Reagan left office a month after the Lockerbie bombing. It would have to be Bush Senior tickling Maggie's fancy, which I'm sure he was eminently capable of doing.

Ah, my bad. It's just so hard to get the horrible memory of her brown-nosing the movie star out of my mind....

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Old 7th September 2009, 02:38 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
Not only number but size, my word. One imagines you'd be nearing the edges of what's available or something. I do know a bit where you're coming from, having started a few threads where I just go off on a point in major detail, usually to make a set point but also to discover along the way how good a point it really is. It's a great way to learn and study a subject, but you usually suffer a lack of outside input and criticism as people stand back and go "what's that raver's problem?" Least how it seems when it happens to me.

I do have a slightly obsessive personality, but in fact I've tried to get my head round this one several times in the past. The sheer complication of the whole thing, plus the variety of CTs (from the plausible to the downright paranoid) have previously defeated me. And in 2001 there wasn't much on the Internet.

The thing is, it's such a hot topic here that any time I'm typing a post, it's likely that something will come on radio and TV in the background about it, right now it's whether the full SCCRC report will be made public. I'll be surprised, I have to say, because we're getting code for "the USA does not want this published" in the reports.

Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
Coincidences do happen, I have to remind myself. But not everything that could be is, especially in some cases. Is this one of them? I dunno. A lot of unknowns tho (how quick do CIAs get on scene usually??), etc.

Not only are several local people interviewed in the various documentaries saying that there were Americans poking around in the wreckage within a few hours of the crash, one of the documentaries interviews someone from London saying that among other air traffic control problems just after the crash, they had to get an executive jet of US personnel there ASAP.

Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
Whatever the actual consiracy of the bombing, based on what I've seen here, al Megrahi was definitely framed and not guilty. On the actual perps, just because there was an original lead doesn't mean that was correct either. Does the CIA ever get fingered up-front?

Well, apart from the fact that the evidence is public and anyone can have a look for themselves and see how thin it is, there comes a point where there are too many respectable people with no obvious axe to grind making a cause of this for it to be dismissed as raving. You can declare that Jim Swire has Stockholm Syndrome if you like (and presumably Martin Cadman too), but add Hans Kochler, Robert Black and Tam Dalyell to that and it starts to look as if something's very wrong.

Look at Hans Kochler's web site about the issue.

Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
But on the longer-term implications of the blame-shifting, that's interesting to me. I'm hazy on what positive attraction there was in smacking lybia with the bill, but I'm sure reasons existed. From what it seems, Iran was de-emphasized to not aggravate them as attention came on Iraq. That war sort of never ended (to count the sanctions-n-bombings dead or to hear Bush/Cheney speak in 2001-3), and of course is culminating around now, perhaps almost over, with British and US troops mostly gone. and while Iran stayed a definite bad-guy state worthy of blaming for a bombing, we haven't been shooting at them for the last 20 years that Iraq's been the project.

Now at around the same time coalition forces are leaving Iraq, or trying to, al Megrahi is released, discussion resumed, Iran belatedly taking the blame,
not long after their "election" debacle... Coincidence?

Oh, probably. Unless someone managed to give Megrahi aggressive prostate cancer on purpose! This affair seems to attract coincidences like flies to jam.

Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
Oh, and on why other CTists aren't involved much, I think that it's too boring and not CIA-blaming enough. I'ts all over which foreign non-white terrorists were responsible, although there is a frame-up and deceit, they payoff just isn't worth the work.

Oh, it can be CIA-blaming with no trouble at all.

You may note a couple of my posts saying, "I keep coming back to that timer." Well, the more you think about it, the more the timer sticks out as inconsistent. It simply makes no sense, whichever way you slice it. Having looked at the earlier commentary on the subject, I started to wonder if there was indeed any way the timer fragment had been planted, as Foot sort of hints he might half-suspect.

Now, having looked at more recent commentary, I see this is exactly where it's going. Private Eye have an update article about that. Fragment of the Imagination. It looks as if even Hans Kochler is entertaining that theory. The subtext is going round that this is what the ultra-top-secret document is about, the one that Megrahi's defence team wanted admitted as evidence, but Westminster vetoed under "public interest immunity", on the grounds that publishing it would be damaging to our relations with a friendly power. Suspicions are held that the document shows that the CIA planted the fragment of the timer.

And if the CIA deliberately framed Megrahi, as looks entirely possible (whether or not the timer fragment was planted), it makes the recent US posturing about his release particularly nauseating.

Actually, I'm going on holiday tomorrow and I'll probably lose meaningful internet access, but when I get back I think I'll start a thread just on the provenance of the fragment. If 9/11 CTs can have an entire subforum, this one can at least have two threads!

Oh yes, and if you want to go even further, there's a LIHOP theory which hasn't been knocked down yet as far as I can see, and may actually provide the closest thing there is to a single explanation for all the observations. And the more extreme fringe also have a MIHOP version.

Just because it was Bush Snr at the helm and not Dubya, surely isn't enough to choke these guys off!

Rolfe.
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Old 7th September 2009, 02:47 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
And quite right. But, as we've discussed, the possible CT 'accusation' arises the moment you start to move away from known facts and into the realms of political motives, devious schemes and speculation. I've done this myself, truth told, which is weak.

But what appears to be true (though I'm willing to listen to evidence to the contrary) is that the case against Megrahi is worse than tissue-thin, it's plain disgraceful.

Where we should go from there I don't know, but speculation is almost inevitable. Then things are likely to get debatable, which simply clouds the basic issue.

How do you define a CT anyway? One that turns out not to be true?

As I said, I'd like to see Gravy take this one on and see what he can debunk. A lot of the bunk looks pretty solid to me.

The only person supporting the Official Version (apart from the officials, of course) is David Shayler! And his line simply seems to be, well but they should have taken Giaka seriously anyway (no you moron, it was proved he was making it up to curry favour with his CIA handlers who were pressing him to help them get a conviction), and Libyan Arab Airlines had a desk at Luqa next to Air Malta so it would have been simplicity itself to get a bag on board (no, you idiot, that's the one place where the records were bullet-proof enough to convince everyone but the judges that it couldn't have gone on there), and anyway the evidence satisfied the judges to he must have been guilty.



I don't think he knows the first thing about it. I can't see how anyone who has read about the problems with the Gauci identification and the impossibility of the bomb having got on board at Malta and the way the CIA tried to convict both men using a proven liar who was desperate to keep himself in their favour, can possibly imagine Megrahi actually did it.

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Old 7th September 2009, 05:10 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Oh, it can be CIA-blaming with no trouble at all.

You may note a couple of my posts saying, "I keep coming back to that timer."
[...]
Suspicions are held that the document shows that the CIA planted the fragment of the timer.
[...]
I think I'll start a thread just on the provenance of the fragment. If 9/11 CTs can have an entire subforum, this one can at least have two threads!
Absolutely. I'm poking around a little more myself and may even be of help. Thanks for the links, I have bookmarks folder for the subject now.

Quote:
Oh yes, and if you want to go even further, there's a LIHOP theory which hasn't been knocked down yet as far as I can see, and may actually provide the closest thing there is to a single explanation for all the observations. And the more extreme fringe also have a MIHOP version.

Just because it was Bush Snr at the helm and not Dubya, surely isn't enough to choke these guys off!

Rolfe.
Heck no Sr. is no less suspect in his prime. Former head of CIA who was president-elect at the time of the bombing (and an exceptionally powerful hands-on VP before that)...
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Old 7th September 2009, 05:50 PM   #221
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Well, I have to log out now, and if I have online access at all for the next week it will be at an inordinate price on a cruise liner in the Mediterranean. I'm not going to post the OP of my thread on the timer right now, as I won't be around to discuss it.

See you next week, I expect. Feels a bit odd packing my suitcase to catch the plane, after all this!

Rolfe.
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Old 8th September 2009, 09:22 AM   #222
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Don't mention Megrahi in Libya.

Well today I got a serious warning about my actions in discussing the release of Megrahi with my Libyan colleagues. This came after a couple of my ex-pat friends commented that I was pushing the boundary of debate with my religious arguments. I feel a little shocked as this came from the top man within my company. I've been told that the whole oil field is talking about what I have said. I was told that this topic is super hot here in Libya and that people are being arrested and 'detained' for talking about it. I guess it's finally time for me to zip it. I'd hate to think I lost my job over it.
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Old 8th September 2009, 03:42 PM   #223
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Jesus. I'm not sure what that tells us about Megrahi's innocence or otherwise, but don't stick your neck out on our account!
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Old 9th September 2009, 09:34 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Big Les View Post
Jesus. I'm not sure what that tells us about Megrahi's innocence or otherwise, but don't stick your neck out on our account!

Ha, ha! Yes, it's irrelevant to the issue of his guilt or otherwise. I just thought I would keep you abreast of the situation here in sunny Libya.
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Old 9th September 2009, 12:03 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by ricbritain View Post
Ha, ha! Yes, it's irrelevant to the issue of his guilt or otherwise. I just thought I would keep you abreast of the situation here in sunny Libya.
Would walking around in a Scottish soccer shirt, while keeping your mouth firmly shut, help?
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Old 9th September 2009, 02:11 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by ricbritain View Post
Well today I got a serious warning about my actions in discussing the release of Megrahi with my Libyan colleagues. This came after a couple of my ex-pat friends commented that I was pushing the boundary of debate with my religious arguments. I feel a little shocked as this came from the top man within my company. I've been told that the whole oil field is talking about what I have said. I was told that this topic is super hot here in Libya and that people are being arrested and 'detained' for talking about it. I guess it's finally time for me to zip it. I'd hate to think I lost my job over it.

Duh? I'm trying to figure out what you actually said! But as I'm on a slow and expensive satellite connection I'm not going to scroll back to find out. (I'm cruising in the Med, but I think I'm far enough out from Libya to get away with whatever I want to say. And Scotland, as yet, is not a police state.)

I set off on holiday with the Private Eye Lockerbie report as holiday reading, all nicely comb-bound, in clear covers. Got a couple of odd looks in the plane for that! Then at Palma airport I had a luggage trolley that wouldn't run straight, and left the damn report in the basket when I switched my suitcase to a better one. I wonder if anyone will read it! I
l'll just have to make a new printout when I get home.

Pity, because I was beginning to figure out where the interesting bit was - what happened between March 1989 and about September 1990. I imagine the evidence is so corrupted by now that nobody will ever figure it out short of an actual confession or two, but it would be good to understand what the possibilities are.

Rolfe.
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Old 9th September 2009, 03:17 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by ricbritain View Post
I've been told that the whole oil field is talking about what I have said.
That sounds pretty insane to jail people for discussing the current hot topic. Roughly speaking, if you can without being assassinated, what have you been saying?
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Old 10th September 2009, 09:08 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
That sounds pretty insane to jail people for discussing the current hot topic. Roughly speaking, if you can without being assassinated, what have you been saying?
I'm in no danger of being assassinated Actually I think I will be ok and remain employed too. I'm hoping that I may have over reacted to my warning.

I simply had a fairly heated debate that started as an inquiry into my opinion regarding the release of Megrahi and escalated into a discussion on the 40 year dictatorship of Gaddafi. This is something that absolutely should not be discussed in anything other than a positive light. We also discussed the Jewish issue and the USA. Again these are topics best avoided in Libya and many other Islamic country's. In Libya there are still government informers and hard liners who will report perceived anti-government sentiment to officials. This is still a very restrictive society.
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Old 10th September 2009, 12:45 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by ricbritain View Post
I'm in no danger of being assassinated Actually I think I will be ok and remain employed too. I'm hoping that I may have over reacted to my warning.

I simply had a fairly heated debate that started as an inquiry into my opinion regarding the release of Megrahi and escalated into a discussion on the 40 year dictatorship of Gaddafi. This is something that absolutely should not be discussed in anything other than a positive light. We also discussed the Jewish issue and the USA. Again these are topics best avoided in Libya and many other Islamic country's. In Libya there are still government informers and hard liners who will report perceived anti-government sentiment to officials. This is still a very restrictive society.
Ah, general criticism of Qadaffi (how many spellings are there?) is certainly something that might be bad. I'm curious tho what people are being arrested for saying. I presume it's people insisting Megrahi's guilty and it's a travesty to let him live his last years in freedom. Of course no one should be troubled for just speaking teheir mind, but rather countered with facts and discussion.

PS sorry my post was a little snarky.
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Old 10th September 2009, 02:13 PM   #230
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What I don't really understand is the number of people prepared to declare Megrahi is guilty. I just can't see how anyone, having read the totality of the evidence, could believe that.

Well, OK, I know the judges did, but there was maybe just a teensy bit of political pressure not to let that pantomime at Camp Zeist wrap up without convicting someone.

I wouldn't give anyone a parking ticket on that evidence.

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Old 10th September 2009, 04:24 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
What I don't really understand is the number of people prepared to declare Megrahi is guilty. I just can't see how anyone, having read the totality of the evidence, could believe that.

Well, OK, I know the judges did, but there was maybe just a teensy bit of political pressure not to let that pantomime at Camp Zeist wrap up without convicting someone.

I wouldn't give anyone a parking ticket on that evidence.

Rolfe.
Well, the judges, national governments, most media outlets, a couple decades for presumed guilt to soak in, etc. might have something to do with it. It's really not mysterious at all IMO that so many will repeat the mantra. I guess Mr. Change Obama himself called the release a travesty or something. I'm no expert on any of this, but when Libya wound up on the UN Human Rights Commission (IIRC) a few years back, someone mentioned what a travesty that was. Curious, I asked why. He said it was because they had supported the Lockerbie bombing and had still not atoned for the sin. That and Ghadaffi was a dictator. That's all most people need to know, apparently. I didn't even know the most inflamatory part of that gripe is (apparently) untrue.

ETA: Glad you've got some kind of link there, Rolfe, and hopefully your lost notebook will be found by an open mind intrigued by their strange find.

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Old 11th September 2009, 10:40 PM   #232
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Obama's quote (one at least)
Quote:
'I think it was highly objectionable,' U.S. President Barack Obama told reporters at the White House, referring to the welcome Megrahi received.
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/afx/2009...fx6803962.html

Further:
Quote:
'It is disturbing to see images suggesting that Megrahi was accorded a hero's welcome instead of being treated as a convicted murderer,' said White House spokesman Bill Burton.
I don't think any of them deny that he was convicted as a murderer.

I hadn't even read a wiki on al Megrahi yet, until just now. I always had the impression as a Libyan "agent" he'd be some kind of street-level terrorist with some shady state links. But no:
Quote:
head of security for Libyan Arab Airlines, and director of the Centre for Strategic Studies in Tripoli
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdelba...med_Al_Megrahi
Holy crap I'm in need of education here. I can see with his expertise in airline security why he'd be a good target - he knows how to work around it, duh! Surely his respected and influential situation also helped. High-status... in evil Arab Libya! So the judges believed that between briefings and meetings he went to Malta and bought baby clothes to wrap the bomb with, or what have you, and personally set the attack up. And then went back to work securing his own airplanes and helping Ghadafi plan its strategic moves, prob'ly to blow up more white people planes but luckily they was stopped!

So is that about it (give or take)?
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Old 11th September 2009, 11:35 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
I hadn't even read a wiki on al Megrahi yet, until just now. I always had the impression as a Libyan "agent" he'd be some kind of street-level terrorist with some shady state links. But no:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdelba...med_Al_Megrahi
Holy crap I'm in need of education here. I can see with his expertise in airline security why he'd be a good target - he knows how to work around it, duh! Surely his respected and influential situation also helped. High-status... in evil Arab Libya! So the judges believed that between briefings and meetings he went to Malta and bought baby clothes to wrap the bomb with, or what have you, and personally set the attack up. And then went back to work securing his own airplanes and helping Ghadafi plan its strategic moves, prob'ly to blow up more white people planes but luckily they was stopped!

So is that about it (give or take)?
That's about it, although there seems little doubt that he was actually in Malta on the second date that the Gauci brothers reckon they sold the clothes (I think Rolfe outlines the fiasco of the football matches and the missing rain elsewhere. Indeed, it was here ). However, the whole Gauci testimony and the conclusions drawn from it have more holes than a collander.
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Old 12th September 2009, 12:19 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
That's about it, although there seems little doubt that he was actually in Malta on the second date that the Gauci brothers reckon they sold the clothes (I think Rolfe outlines the fiasco of the football matches and the missing rain elsewhere. Indeed, it was here ). However, the whole Gauci testimony and the conclusions drawn from it have more holes than a collander.
Especially considering the bomb may well have been placed on board in London, where al Megrahi was not at the time. Thanks, Glenn. Great post at that link, helps to set one aside and look it over. Rolfe, you know by starting that one "I think it's overstating the case to label me as "a student of the subject"" you've passively-aggressively forced me to say "you misspelled understating."

So the second date he was in Malta is the second possibility for the one day of the fateful purchase by the shape-shifting stranger.It's also the less likely of the two, as 11/23 had evidence for rain and 12/7 little reason to also buy an umbrella. He may have been/was there on the bad fit day and has a solid alibi for the better fit.

And this is their BEST evidence? Travesty indeed.
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Old 12th September 2009, 02:31 PM   #235
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The best evidence was actually Giaka's evidence. The little snagette there was that Giaka was a lying toad willing to say anything he thought would persuade the CIA to keep him on their payroll and their comfortable witness protection programme.

It was Giaka who first named Megrahi and Fhimah as possible perpetrators, with a load of stuff about Fhimah keeping explosives in the drawer of his office desk at Libyan Arab airlines (yeah, right....). The CIA knew he knew virtually nothing, and that he was actually a mechanic not an operative, and was basically making it up as he went along. But they didn't have anything else. So they kept asking him for information, and pressurising him for more, and he gave it to them.

Giaka was to be the star witness at the trial, with a load of rubbish about seeing Megrahi carrying a brown Samsonite suitcase at Luqa airport and more where that came from. However, the CIA cables produced in evidence had a lot of stuff blacked out. The defence applied to have the cables admitted in full. The prosecution swore there was nothing in the redacted sections that would cast any doubt on Giaka's reliability as a witness. However disclosure was ordered, and when the blacked-out parts were visible they proved that the CIA knew Giaka had invented the lot.

Read Hans Kochler's opinion on that lot - not so much that the Judges threw out Giaka's evidence at that point, which they had no option but to do (which acquitted Fhimah entirely, as they had no other evidence against him), but that the prosecution weren't subjected to censure for presenting a witness they knew to be lying.

This is what makes the current US outrage so nauseating. Oh yes, they're going to boycott Scottish goods and cancel their holidays to our country, and never mind that Scottish soldiers are fighting and dying in Afghanistan beside US soldiers, or that the US had a bloody nuclear submarine base on our soil. But it was the CIA who basically framed Megrahi in the first place!

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Old 12th September 2009, 11:51 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The best evidence was actually Giaka's evidence. The little snagette there was that Giaka was a lying toad willing to say anything he thought would persuade the CIA to keep him on their payroll and their comfortable witness protection programme.
By best evidence I mean best evidence that was actually admitted instead of tossed out as obvious falsehood.

Quote:
the prosecution weren't subjected to censure for presenting a witness they knew to be lying.
And this is the amazing thing. If it's true, all this evidence about how bad the evidence was, how on Earth were these judges brought to their findings? They didn't all three wander there by accident. Justice isn't supposed to work like that.

Quote:
This is what makes the current US outrage so nauseating. Oh yes, they're going to boycott Scottish goods and cancel their holidays to our country, and never mind that Scottish soldiers are fighting and dying in Afghanistan beside US soldiers, or that the US had a bloody nuclear submarine base on our soil. But it was the CIA who basically framed Megrahi in the first place!

Rolfe.
I wasn't sure you were from Scotland. Never could figure out what those numbers meant. And why the hubbub? I gather people are upset that el Megrahi's set to die in more like 8 months than 3 down the road. Oooh, a liberal compassionate release, unacceptable! How pissed will they be when (if) they realize the real bomber(s) (apparently) got paid by Iran AND got to blow up Christians AND never were even pursued, let alone caught...

Looking forward to the timer thread. I do better with something narrow to wrap my brain around.
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Old 13th September 2009, 12:58 PM   #237
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I'm still cruising round the Mediterranean, on a slow satellite connection (which died altogether on Friday night out of Naples) at 3 quid (no pounds sign on this Yank keyboard, you'd think they could at least manage a Euro symbol considering where we are....) an hour.

The timer fragment intrigues me greatly, and I'm obviously not the only one. But I don't have any links saved on this computer, so I'll see you on Tuesday or Wednesday.

Rolfe.
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Old 13th September 2009, 01:15 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm still cruising round the Mediterranean, on a slow satellite connection (which died altogether on Friday night out of Naples) at 3 quid (no pounds sign on this Yank keyboard, you'd think they could at least manage a Euro symbol considering where we are....) an hour.

The timer fragment intrigues me greatly, and I'm obviously not the only one. But I don't have any links saved on this computer, so I'll see you on Tuesday or Wednesday.

Rolfe.
Try CTRL+ALT+4 for a sign
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Old 13th September 2009, 01:22 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
Looking forward to the timer thread. I do better with something narrow to wrap my brain around.
Caustic - what I'm about to suggest is strictly speaking naughty, but if you search this thread (and the other one in Social Issues) for residue, MEBO and Thurman , you'll get an intro to the timer issues. I'm sure Rolfe will add very worthwhile stuff later.
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Old 15th September 2009, 01:47 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
This is what makes the current US outrage so nauseating. Oh yes, they're going to boycott Scottish goods and cancel their holidays to our country, and never mind that Scottish soldiers are fighting and dying in Afghanistan beside US soldiers, or that the US had a bloody nuclear submarine base on our soil.
Perhaps Mike Myers will reprise his old SNL character to remind us all the "if it's Scottish, it's crap." I really wanted a video link for reference, but there isn't one at all.

Two points here. One was to say that. Point 2 is to bump this thread for the many, many, forum members who haven't said anything here yet. C'mon, it's okay to admit you're a little confused. Third point - okany, three then - is to say I've been reading up on this thread and the general discussion about the case and indeed this line of thinking that Rolfe's got here is widely known of enough that it gets mentioned all the time - it's actively throwing an awkward ambiguity into the milieu, at the very least.

Some little things I've picked up. Time:
Quote:
The shirt is traced to a small store in Malta called Mary's House. Its owner, a man named Tony Gauci, identifies al-Megrahi in a police lineup.
http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...917851,00.html
I thought his description didn't match? Why would he then pick the right guy when presented with multiples? That's a little complicating.

Same article:
Quote:
Conspiracy theorists, meanwhile, claim al-Megrahi was a victim himself, arguing that U.S. authorities steered the investigation away from Syria and Iran in the run-up to the first Gulf War.
And that is exactly why this thread belongs in the CT forum and helps illustrate a belief I've long held - while conspiracy theories are prone to many strains of stupid, they aren't always wrong.

There were some other points but that's a good spot to leave it at.
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