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18th May 2012, 01:41 AM | #361 |
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I'm asking Furcifer to clarify because it seems that he's of the opinion that only Japan are doing this commercially whereas everyone else is doing this small scale.
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18th May 2012, 01:58 AM | #362 |
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18th May 2012, 02:15 AM | #363 |
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Laws DO change just because we don't like them... as long as we dislike them enough. The problems come when somebody wants them changed and doesn't carry the necessary social momentum. In which case you just keep plugging away at it - or accept that you're not going to get your way on this one.
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18th May 2012, 03:31 AM | #364 |
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18th May 2012, 03:41 AM | #365 |
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My own perception of this is that there are several indiginous peoples who have an exemption that allows them to retain an aspect of their culture, and they're openly doing some small scale whaling, using indiginous tools, as an ongoing living history reenactment. They're being honest about it being a cultural and living history thing. What the japanese are doing is pretending that there's some pressing critical reason they need to know the average body weight of a minke whale to the ninth decimal place, and thus calling weighing out the whale steaks 'research', while clearly doing the whole thing because whale steak is expensive and therefore profitable.
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18th May 2012, 03:44 AM | #366 |
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18th May 2012, 04:23 AM | #367 |
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No they aren't.
And the difference in scale is almost the definition of commercial fishing, farming, air travel etc. It's the capacity that allows you to sell your product that defines it and not becuase you sell it or trade it for denim jeans. Yes they can, and they do. They have traditional hunts along coastal waters carried out by villagers that have been going on for centuries. It's the fleet of commercial whaling vessels using international waters that isn't sustainable. |
18th May 2012, 04:34 AM | #368 |
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18th May 2012, 05:28 AM | #369 |
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Well to start, I didn't actually know that they did that so I'm really only responding based on what I've just read. I don't really see a problem with it as long as it's sustainable, and given that both the Green Sea Turtle and the Dugong are threatened species I would support the Indigenous population choosing to scale back on the numbers taken or stopping the hunt whether temporary or permanently as a few tribes chose to do last year at least to allow the species to recover for a bit.
Having said that I don't think that it's up to us to force them to stop because they are permitted to do so under Native Title. So even though Norway caught 468 minke whales last year they aren't commercial, but Japan's capture of 445 minke whales is? Or is it still a commercial activity simply because Japan has caught more whales in the past compared to Norway?
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18th May 2012, 06:13 AM | #370 |
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18th May 2012, 06:49 AM | #371 |
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Sorry for the formatting, I can't find the square brackets to close quotes on my keypad.
Yes, if you're a commercial fisherman and you catch 1 fish you're still a commercial fisherman. It has nothing to do with how many you catch but how you catch it. Are you not understanding what's meant by capacity within the context of the discussion? And again, the Japanese are raping international waters it's my understanding the Norwegians aren't. Commercialism is defined by the equipement and the capacity that equipement has to catch fish. It's a very universal concept in ag. I'm not sure what EEZ is, but the Japanese should be able to operate any vessels they like within their borders and without interference from activists like the SS. Evidence? The bloody boat is evidence Japan's whaling operation within their borders isn't sustainable. But what I'm really talking about every country using the same methods as the Japanese, that isn't sustainable. Just do the math. |
18th May 2012, 07:09 AM | #372 |
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I'm sorry that you didn't like the way I said it.
Those nasty civil rights protesters broke laws they considered unjust, in order to bring attention to those laws and have them changed. The Sea Shepherds do not want to change any laws; they want Japan prosecuted (or something) under what they claim are existing laws, whilst avoiding being prosecuted themselves for the laws they break. It would be interesting. However I would suggest a different thread. |
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18th May 2012, 07:16 AM | #373 |
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18th May 2012, 07:20 AM | #374 |
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18th May 2012, 07:42 AM | #375 |
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18th May 2012, 07:58 AM | #376 |
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"Changes" is nonspecific. I'm talking about the very specific case of breaking laws to stop other people from breaking laws.
ETA: When I watch Sea Shepherds do things like ram a ship into a fishing structure in the middle of the ocean that people are walking on, see to me what I see is road rage. I see a person tailgating another car, attempting to sideswipe it, force it off the road and/or beat the other driver because the guy broke a traffic law a few miles back and there were no cops around to see. The justification is that the other driver is a "menace" and "something needs to be done"; but the act of pursuing and "bringing justice" is just as much a threat to life and limb. |
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18th May 2012, 08:15 AM | #377 |
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The Australian Native Title Act following Mabo vs Queensland, and The Wik Decision and Native Title Amendment Act, probably the biggest legal changes in Australia since the ending of the White Australia Policy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Mabo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mabo_v_...and_%28No_1%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mabo_v_...and_%28No_2%29 http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/c...ct/nta1993147/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wik_Peoples_v_Queensland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_...dment_Act_1998 |
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18th May 2012, 08:26 AM | #378 | |||||||||||||||
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Except when you say they aren't.
I am interested in knowing what you would consider Hvalur hf given that they commercially hunt whales and export to Japan since you've declared that they are not commercial, but the Japanese fleet, which are officially a research fleet, are.
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While I sort of understand Indonesia's status, I don't understand what delineates Norway and Iceland, countries that hunt under objection to the commission, and Japan which hunts under the nominal designation of "research".
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What do you believe should happen to the whales after they are killed?
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18th May 2012, 08:34 AM | #379 |
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I have been on the fence on this one for a while. The more I think about it, the more I learn about whales and the potential for higher cognitive function, the less I feel they should be hunted at all.
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18th May 2012, 08:39 AM | #380 |
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Sounds to me like your boy Mabo was living on Crown Land. He was at the very least claiming ownership and transfering title of Crown Land, which here in Canada would be considered fraud. He was breaking the law until it was changed so Mabo is a big fat hypocrite right?
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18th May 2012, 08:56 AM | #381 |
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Maybe Norway is commercially fishing, I'm not familiar with the entire operation. If they're using commercial boats and commercial fishermen even inside their borders it's
commercial. The whales are protected becuase they were hunted almost to extinction. The burden of proof is on you to produce Japan's method for calculating their quotas and see if it includes all of the countries in the world taking an equal share or not. |
18th May 2012, 08:58 AM | #382 |
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Has anyone heard anything about the extradition hearing? I thought it was supposed to be today...but I've checked google news for "Paul Watson" and there are no new articles.
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18th May 2012, 10:41 AM | #383 | |||||||||||||||
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So to update my table:
So that changes the list quite a bit now. So "commercial boats" seems to be one of the factors that separates "commercial" from "non-commercial". Apart from that what other technological aspects make up the divide between commercial and non-commercial whaling?
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Then again, what would be a fair share of whales for places like Kyrgyzstan and Liechtenstein? Released on bail pending a hearing. But for some reason I get the feeling that Germany might get €250,000 richer. |
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18th May 2012, 10:48 AM | #384 |
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Maybe - but, ouch; international warrants are a real albatross around the old neck. Still, I suppose he could seek asylum in Iceland like Bobby Fischer did.
...oh wait, he can't seek asylum in Iceland; he's persona non grata after they expelled him for dickery. Well shoot. |
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18th May 2012, 10:57 AM | #385 |
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Yeah, for some reason I take slight offense when calling a group a lynch mob when it's never lynched. Some kind of truth hang-up, I guess.
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18th May 2012, 11:19 AM | #386 |
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You know what, I'm with you - I for one am also sick of all these witch hunts that don't involve witches, wild goose chases that have nothing to do with game birds, tar babies that feature neither tar nor any babies, and straw men that aren't even physical objects let alone constructed of dried grass.
I strive to be nonstandard. The crews ramming ships have certainly injured some folks (such as the fishermen on the structure in the video posted earlier). Trying to remember the last time a Japanese whaler accidentally or intentionally explodey-harpooned some passerby's arm or something and it's just not coming to me (although to be honest I do not regularly keep track of such incidents so I just may not have heard of them). |
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18th May 2012, 11:24 AM | #387 |
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18th May 2012, 11:40 AM | #388 |
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18th May 2012, 07:33 PM | #389 | ||
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I've had hundreds of these "primitives" as you offensively refer to them in my undergraduate and graduate university classes. They are no different from you and me other than being looked upon as an inferior class of humans by racists like you.
Your ignorance of indigenous hunts in Alaska is glaring, and is more fully mis-stated by Andrew Wiggin:
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The former chair of this Eskimo Whaling Commission, George Ahmaogak, was just sentenced to 30 years in prison for various financial crimes. You have people here who are going to do whatever they please, the law be damned, and what they have forced the IWC to do is either imprison whole villages or let them do what they want. The irony is that your heroes are lawbreakers claiming to protect the whales, yet you side with the natives who were lawbreakers that were killing them. The reason why the natives use the skin boats for first strike is that the whales run from the sound of an outboard motor, and because of the flexibility of the skin boats. They don't pound the waves like an inflexible boat so they are far stealthier. They are choosing the most EFFECTIVE hunting technology, not some stupid living history thing. God what paternalistic crap! They shoot caribou in the head while crossing rivers, bash swans on the head while they are moulting, etc. - which again has to do with efficiency and not an idiotic "living history" meme. Reading this stuff is revolting. What this proves is how people make up total crap - and its pretty racist, paternalistic crap too - out of complete ignorance in order to support their irrational positions. |
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18th May 2012, 09:07 PM | #390 |
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Really? A lot of Indonesian whalers taking undergrad classes in Nome is there?
"Primitives" are universal to any race. Ted Nugent is an example of a "white" primitive. I find my own views on hunting and wearing furs primitive. Even organic farming is primitive. It really only becomes pejorative when we're talking about people that do something unsustainable out of principle. |
18th May 2012, 10:34 PM | #391 |
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I need you to define what a "commercial boat" is then because right now you're being contradictory or using a definition of "commercial boat" that nobody else is using.
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But then you don't seem to like doing things like giving evidence or providing definitions. Shall I just assume that your point of view is Japanese whaling = commercial while non-Japanese whaling = non-commercial no matter the circumstances. |
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18th May 2012, 11:02 PM | #392 |
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Nonsense. As best as I can tell you're comparing the Japanese "research" boats to Indonesian recreational boats. Stop playing games, let's see some pictures in a side by side comparison.
lmfao dodge already noted Nissan Maru=commercial whaling vessel compare them to anything else being used in whaling around the world using images. cite the length and compare the horsepower buh bye |
19th May 2012, 01:08 AM | #393 |
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The only thing I hate more than eco-terrorism is passive aggressive wimpy eco-terrorism. I'd have a lot more respect for Sea Shepherd if they'd man up and just start bombing boats.
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19th May 2012, 02:30 AM | #394 |
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19th May 2012, 02:47 AM | #395 |
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The more I learn about the sea shepherd ***clowns the more I lean in favour of whaling.
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19th May 2012, 03:19 AM | #396 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Because when I'm talking about Norway or Iceland I'm actually talking about Indonesia?
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Or you can just look at the table below.
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But since I'm a little bored I'll play your stupid little game and present it in a nice table for you:
Of course I will need you to tell me if the last column is correct, but I will admit that this method of defining "commercial" as "the largest ship involved in whaling" is pretty interesting. I could probably use that logic to "prove" that the only commercial cattle producer is Anna Creek station and that because of that the only commercial cattle company is S Kidman and Co Ltd. |
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19th May 2012, 03:21 AM | #397 |
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19th May 2012, 04:54 AM | #398 |
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i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp. |
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19th May 2012, 05:27 AM | #399 |
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19th May 2012, 05:34 AM | #400 |
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This is actually the commonest reaction I hear to their TV show. If you go to the show's page on IMDB the message board section is FULL of people laughing at them and cheering on the whalers, many of whom say that the show has made them into supporters of whaling.
I wonder if the board just attracts the sort of person who likes to be contrary, or if the overall impact of the show is to actually harm their own cause. |
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