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19th May 2012, 06:50 AM | #401 |
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19th May 2012, 07:49 AM | #402 |
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19th May 2012, 08:01 AM | #403 |
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Update on Watson's case.
Apparently, they decided yesterday he could be released on bail while awaiting the court's decision on whether they will extradite him or not. SS is using the weekend to come up with his €250,000 bail money. He will most likely be released on Monday. He has to stay in the country while on bail.
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19th May 2012, 08:09 AM | #404 |
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The show hasn't made me into a supporter of whaling, any more than Occupy Wall Street's failery will turn me into a Republican. It just makes me very anti-Sea-Shepherd. I want them to be unsuccessful not because I like whaling, but because I wish a lack of success on douchebags in general, and particularly on ones who wrap themselves in a "moral cause". I do not feel good that the guy's neat multimillion-dollar speedboat was destroyed for instance; but watching the taunts suddenly stop and the smug drain from their faces as it occurs to them that the whaler is not veering away is rather like a sip of hot cocoa on a bitter cold night.
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19th May 2012, 02:11 PM | #405 |
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Exactly. As I said upthread, the SS tends to make people pro whalers (but not necessarily pro whaling). I think that it's akin to the Oakland Raiders (an American professional football team to you non-Americans reading this). They are the team that everyone likes to root against when they don't really have any other opinion about the particular game being played. Hell their team logo is even similar in some respects to the Sea Shepherds, probably because the root emblem for both is the classic Jolly Roger flag.
The Sea Shepherds make it so very easy to dislike them on so many different levels. Be it their flaunting of the law when it suits them while complaining that others are flaunting the law at the same time, their utter ineptitude as seamen, their stated position that it's ok to lie if it suits their cause and so on. In my opinion the only people who support them (not their cause of stopping whaling, just the SS and their tactics) are doing so out of hatred and not rational thought. In that regard they are like the people who like the idea of Abortion Clinic bombings. There are plenty of people out there who abhor the idea of abortion and consider it murder but don't agree at all with the idea of blowing up a clinic to stop them just as there are plenty of people out there who don't like the idea of whaling (some even consider it murder) but don't agree with how the SS are going about trying to stop it. |
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19th May 2012, 02:32 PM | #406 |
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19th May 2012, 03:42 PM | #407 |
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19th May 2012, 05:08 PM | #408 |
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Thanks for posting the image links. Unfortunately I'm having trouble opening them, but I was able to open the first one from Iceland. It certanly looks like a commercial fishing boat. I've seen the Indonesian whaling in the BBC special, it actually looks like the Daily Fail pic is from the video. I don't know how you could confuse that with a Japanese commercial whaling vessel? Or that the hunt is done for personal use and not for profit like the Japanese operation.
It seems to me you're just playing the same game of semantics that has allowed the countries claiming "traditional" hunting rights to ramp up production so that it's now so far removed from "tradition" it's unrecognizable. |
19th May 2012, 07:21 PM | #409 |
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19th May 2012, 08:38 PM | #410 |
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19th May 2012, 11:07 PM | #411 |
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And that illustrates the point brilliantly. There's no shortage of people willing to support and even give their time and effort to help "save whales"...before they meet these people. And as repugnant as one may find them after being exposed to a few clips on a TV show, imagine being stuck with them on a boat in the southern ocean, unable to escape until whenever they decide to put into port.
Incidents like the Steve Irwin nosing into the aft quarter of that whaler at full speed must be horrifying. On deck the poor saps could at least watch their fate coming to meet them; imagine being belowdecks or in the engine room, feeling the collisions and listening to the screeching metal and wondering what on Earth is going on. |
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19th May 2012, 11:21 PM | #412 |
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19th May 2012, 11:29 PM | #413 |
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My commercial fishing boat in the drift gillnet fishery of the lower Yukon (Y-1 district, Emmonak) was 20 ft. There were a lot of boats smaller than mine. I had twin 50 hp Mercs on the back of that. I used two mesh sizes, one for Chums and one for Kings.
Right now I got a 24 ft Wooldridge with a 225 hp Johnson and jet unit. It is not a commercial boat. The definition of "commercial" has nothing to do with size. It is strictly whether you catch for personal use or for trade. And as a matter of fact we fished some days for personal use, always for kings that we smoked up with alders, and the boat was non-commercial on those days. That's how they separated the commercial from personal use - by which day you fished. We had to listen to the radio to listen for the openers of either one, which were anywhere from 12 hours to two days depending on the sonar count at the mouth. So just go on with making up your own terms to suit your agenda. But it doesn't have much to do with the real world. |
20th May 2012, 12:40 AM | #414 |
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Strawman. Nobody said the size of the boat was the only factor.
You're right of course, what the boat is used for plays a significant role in whether or not it's considered a commercial or recreational vessel. At least for smaller boats, for larger boats, like the ones in question, they can't even be registered as recreational vessels. I can't remember all of the laws offhand but these boats have to be captained and have a crew etc. based on their length. The Japanese are operating a fleet of modern commercial whaling vessels, there's no question about that. And there's really no question it's nothing like the "traditional" hunts seen in various countries around the world. Commercial hunting isn't sustainable, we really don't need any more "research" to prove that. |
20th May 2012, 02:10 AM | #415 |
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But is it though? Remember, you were the one who said that the yardstick is the Nisshin Maru.
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Perhaps you could explain the other factors that make up your definition of "commercial" since so far we only have "size of the boat"?
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20th May 2012, 06:19 AM | #416 |
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I'm not sure, it could be that the use of the bigger boat is a result of whales being as big as they are. Is it registered as a commercial boat?
The people killing the whale get a share of the kill. In Indonesia the kid delivering the killing blow gets a double share. Both and more. Tradition is admittedly hard to define, but we've been able to do so here in Canada. Maybe we're just smarter than the Japanese? You're lying. I've explained numerous other factors that go into making the Japanese whaling vessels commercial. I'm not going into capacity, range, international waters, organization, personal use, registration etc. again. Perhaps you need to read more about whaling or read what I've already written for comprehension? The reason whales are protected is because commercial whaling was unsustainable. I suggest a history book. Again, if you're saying the critical decline in the World's whale populations wasn't due to commercial hunting, and that what the Japanese are doing is sustainable then prove it. Just remember they're doing it in international waters so "It's sustainable if the Japanese are the only ones doing it" isn't a viable answer. |
20th May 2012, 10:19 AM | #417 |
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20th May 2012, 10:41 AM | #418 |
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The Icelandic boats that belong to the private company Hvalur hf? Them? I think they're registered as 1:87.1 models. It's either that or whaling ships, but then my Icelandic is pretty non-existent.
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20th May 2012, 11:38 AM | #419 |
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Because I've read the Animal Planet Forums (along with others). There are a few pro SS people on there but nowhere as many as you would think. The vast majority of the posts were about how dumb the SS people were and that they were rooting for the Whalers to win the "War".
I also talk to people IRL (I live in the San Francisco Bay Area) and with one exception (it turns out that she used to be a crew member of the Steve Irwin for over a year (or so she claimed, she did have on a Sea Shepherd shirt on though). I called her an idiot to her face and told her why) the ones who have seen the show all prefaced with the fact that they don't like whaling then went on to say pretty much the same thing about rooting for the whalers due to the actions of the SS Then look here on JREF. Not exactly a hotbed of neanderthals yet most of the posts are not exactly what I would call pro-SS. Take your pick. The SS do it to themselves. Before I saw the show I was on their side. Now, not so much. |
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20th May 2012, 11:54 AM | #420 |
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20th May 2012, 11:59 AM | #421 |
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20th May 2012, 01:11 PM | #422 |
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So what? You think a private company can't be commercial???
And that's personal use. The fact that it's sold or traded by the hunters is really irrelevant unless you're splitting hairs trying to legitimize the commercial Japanese whaling hunt done under the guise of "research". I can look it up when I get the chance. Suffice to say they aren't allowed to roam the sea in a floating processing plant and call it "research". I find it hard to believe you don't understand how the Japanese are gaming the system and not just doing things "on a bigger scale". It's not black and white I've given you numerous examples of how a critical thinking person could look at the different hunts around the world and come to some logical conclusions as to what is or isn't commercial. Like I said, only a fool could be persuaded into thinking a bottle rocket and a bazooka are basically the same thing. The same principle is in play here. If you don't know the history of whaling you don't have any business in this discussion. I know it's a common MO but playing the fool isn't "skepticism". Commercial whaling was stopped because their numbers were decimated to the point of extinction. The burden of proof is on you to show why the majority of countries continue to enforce moratorium on commercial whaling while a select few ignore the research indicating the practise is unsustainable. You continue to ignore the obvious problem which is what happens if every country decides they want to do "research" on whales. Or how about this, I "traditonally" enjoy tuna so how about we let the Newfies "research" the bluefin tuna all year round? We may as well open the season up in the US for "research" too. And why bother with tags and restricting catch to single hook lines, scale it up man, throw out the old Omni-Net. What's the difference? I think the problem is people unfamiliar with fishing or hunting don't really understand these "lines" that have been drawn. In order for them to be sustainable we impose restrictions that are intended to maintain "sport". What difference does it make if you shoot a deer with a bullet or an arrow? What difference does it make if you hook a fish in the mouth or in the tail? What difference does it make if you use a fishing pole or a spear? The answer is "a lot", one is hunting and the other is poaching (at different times in different situations etc.). Most of the World has recognized the fact the our ability to collect far exceeds the natural world's ability to compensate. It's called "overkill" and in order to maintain some balance we have to impose restrictions based on the poential capacity of the methods used in the hunt. The Japanese are clearly the most egregious example of complete and utter disregard for this principle. The fact they have self imposed quotas doesn't really absolve them of anything. Snagging is illegal even if you promise to only take 1 fish. Using a shotgun during black powder season is illegal even if you promise to take only 1 deer. Are you familiar with this idea of "sport"? Do you see how it relates to "capacity"? Do you understand how using a net is usually considered "commercial" but maybe at certain times could be considered "sport"? Do you understand that there are people who do "research" to determine when and if or how many deer can be taken with a bow, but not with a gun and why? Becuase I get the general gist of things and I'm pretty sure what the Japanese are doing is wrong. |
20th May 2012, 01:46 PM | #423 |
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Perhaps a topic for another thread, but yah your "right" to do something becuase of "tradition" even when it flies in face of logic is "primitive". I really don't see anyone supporting whaling hunting as being different from those that support female circumcision under the guise of "tradition". It's primitive. So is forcing your wife to walk 10 feet behind you in public, or lighting her on fire becuase she disrepected you. They might be more extreme examples of "tradition" run amok but I'm not going to pull any punches, it's primitive.
Killing whales for food? Well if I think killing domesticated cows for food is primitive, can you imagine what I think about killing whales? We may have come a long way from the Neaderthals but a lot of what we think as a society, much of which is based in tradition is primitive. |
20th May 2012, 02:07 PM | #424 |
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And according to YouTube posters black people are dumb thugs and women belong in the kitchen.
Call me skeptical but forums might not be the best place to gauge the collective human consciousness from. Just saying. Mind you I wouldn't be totally surprised if most people actually felt this way. The fact is Watson is a fanatic, he falls on the wrong side of the law at times and he lends himself to the villification. Plus he has the personna of a dead whale. Still some of what he does is admirable and some is insane. You've got to take everything on a casee by case basis. |
20th May 2012, 02:51 PM | #425 |
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I don't believe I said anything of the sort. You on the other hand have been all over the place when it comes to the commercial nature of whaling.
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I went to school with someone whose parents owned a cattle station up north. It wasn't a big station, something like 400 head of cattle, but when they would send the animals to the abattoir they'd keep some of the meat for themselves and sell the rest. Would that mean that their entire operation is therefore "personal use" because they got a share of the resulting meat?
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Then again I would assume you would be perfectly fine with this if the people doing it were "primitive".
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20th May 2012, 04:33 PM | #426 |
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I've never said the definition of "commercialism" is black and white. In fact I've mentioned it isn't several times. There's no mathematical formula, it's somewhat intuitive when you begin looking different operations around the world. My point is it isn't as grey as you keep trying to fake.
It could be. It depends on whether or not they were registered as a commercial operation or as butcher shop. What did their tax number indicate? What kind of tax breaks did they get? Did they get commercial subsidy? These things are defined and while they vary from country to country they are surprisingly uniform. In the US they might be a commercial operation, but in Mexico considered a "hobby farm", but usually it's a small differemce. I don't think anywhere in the world having 4000 head of cattle could be considered "recreational". Yes, but you've also said it's just a matter of scale. You're not moving the goal posts but you're leaning on them at every opportunity. The criteria is divulged and you understand them perfectly, you're just feigning ignorance to maintain this "Wah? I don't get it? Wah?" You're not fooling anyone, especially me. I can't respond to a post like this on my phone. The formatting makes it extremely difficult. If you ever narrow it down to a single cogent point post I'll try to respond. In the mean time I've got to get a new computer. |
20th May 2012, 06:05 PM | #427 |
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Did you miss this part?
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Sometimes the ends don't justify the means and when they don't they can backfire big time. |
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20th May 2012, 07:57 PM | #428 |
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20th May 2012, 09:21 PM | #429 |
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And there is no proof that it was solely because of the SS. Remember that the Sea Shepherds have quite openly stated that they will say anything to put themselves in a good light and that the truth is not a factor when they say it. A quota is the maximum allowed and not a guarantee that you will reach it. Ask anyone who has gone hunting or fishing. That still doesn't detract from what I said about how people felt about the SS or their rooting for the whalers during that show. People tend to dislike ******** and the SS has boatloads of them. Pun intended.
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20th May 2012, 10:27 PM | #430 |
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The reason why Japan is using larger boats than other whaling nations is because Japan is doing off-shore whaling. The other whaling nations are only doing on-shore whaling where smaller boats suffice.
It has nothing to do with commercial vs. non-commercial, the size of the whales or the strength of character of the whalers of differing nationalities.
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However, nobody is hunting for whale oil any more: modern whaling is all for whale meat, and that kind of whaling has a much lower impact -- in part because fewer whales are killed for meat than for whale oil, and in part because the hunt is more selective when it comes to which species are killed.
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20th May 2012, 10:27 PM | #431 |
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1. Yes you have, several times. The problem is that your definition seems to be a special one that only you know.
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4. I wouldn't know too much about their tax status because that wasn't something we spoke about, or subsidies.
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20th May 2012, 10:29 PM | #432 |
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Some of his goals are admirable; none of the steps he takes to achieve them is. Like a parent who wants to keep her child safe by never letting him outside the house, ever.
And his method of choice is completely insane. Ending whaling is something that's going to require massive popular interest and support to achieve; adopting an approach that so many are repulsed by indicates either a kind of naïve shortsightedness or a goal that isn't "ending whaling". |
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20th May 2012, 10:52 PM | #433 |
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While it's true that Japan is exploiting a loophole and can be said to be "gaming the system", it should be pointed out that they're using said loophole to get around another loophole and that the system was already gamed by the other side.
In short: a temporary moratorium on all commercial whaling was enacted back in the eighties until the IWC's scientific committee could finish some revisions on the new management procedures. This work was finished about two decades ago, but -- in contradiction of IWC's charter -- anti-whaling nations have blocked the formal adoption of this work in order to extend the moratorium on this technicality. It was only after this underhand tactic came into use that Norway opted to use its reservation, Iceland left the IWC (and later rejoined with a post-dated reservation) and Japan began exploiting the loophole of scientific whaling being (in essence) outside the remit of the IWC. Be glad there was this loophole for Japan to take advantage of, because the realistic alternative is not Japan doing no whaling, but Japan leaving the IWC and doing whaling outside of any international body at all.
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20th May 2012, 10:59 PM | #434 |
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20th May 2012, 11:08 PM | #435 |
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21st May 2012, 07:30 AM | #437 |
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21st May 2012, 10:03 AM | #438 |
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In news relevant to this thread it seems that Sea Shepherd did get the money together as Watson was released on bail, or if you would like a headline that is simply bad journalism "Anti-whaling activist walks free".
But it seems that I was wrong about him leaving the country since it seems he'll hang around to protest at the arrival of the Costa Rican President. Although I wonder if being sent to Costa Rica really is a "death sentence" as he put it. |
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21st May 2012, 10:23 AM | #439 |
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21st May 2012, 10:38 AM | #440 |
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