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21st May 2012, 10:58 AM | #441 |
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I'd said earlier that I think he'd jump bail, but he hasn't so far.
By the way, thanks Eligbak for linking to IMDB. The discussion board for the show is pretty interesting as well. |
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21st May 2012, 11:10 AM | #442 |
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Indeed, the whales that weren't hunted weren't driven to the point of extinction.
I'd like to see the IWC research you're talking about. Of course commercial whaling is sustainable, just limit the catch to 1 whale per species per country. I don't think you need very much research to know that. The real question is what happens when every country decides they're going to allow 300 foot commercial boats to cruise the seas taking 1000 whales. Some countries won't but then there's no law prohibiting Japan or Norway from registering vessels in other countries and then counting the catch towards that countries fisheries quota. What specifically has the IWC shown in the revised management procedure? |
21st May 2012, 11:44 AM | #443 |
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If the host country is okay with it, why is this a problem?
The point of quotas is to limit the overall number of whales taken, then the point is still served; no more whales are taken than the total limit. The Bahamas for instance has absolutely no interest in whaling; why shouldn't they be able donate their share of the quota in exchange for taxes? |
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21st May 2012, 11:51 AM | #444 |
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21st May 2012, 12:07 PM | #445 |
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21st May 2012, 12:13 PM | #446 |
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21st May 2012, 10:00 PM | #447 |
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21st May 2012, 10:11 PM | #448 |
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21st May 2012, 10:31 PM | #449 |
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21st May 2012, 10:41 PM | #450 |
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21st May 2012, 11:36 PM | #451 |
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22nd May 2012, 12:41 AM | #452 |
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Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable. |
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22nd May 2012, 12:57 AM | #453 |
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Yes, I know the guy on the Ady Gil and the guy arrested in Germany are not the same, if that's what you're getting at. I made that comment with respect to the controversy surrounding its sinking. Given the relative difference in mass between ships, I think that the "captain" of the Ady Gil was an idiot for putting his vessel in harms way, regardless of whether or not the Japanese captain intentionally tried to hit it (which I doubt). |
22nd May 2012, 01:01 AM | #454 |
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They're most definitely commercial boats - they stay out for weeks on end and process the whales on board. As Ryokan pointed out, the Norwegians enjoy whale meat, but if you counted up all the Norwegians and their consumption of whale meat from last year, it would not equal the "catch". The government approved EXPORT to..... guess where? If you answered "Japan", you would be correct. They re-implemented trading with Japan in whale meat a few years ago.
Norway is an anomaly. They do not need the industry - without the export, it's dying on its own. I'd be curious to hear from Ryokan or others... Is it a stubborn pride thing? Or is there some huge political donor who has a lot invested in whaling. (It became an election issue a few times, IIRC.) ETA: Not that it'll necessarily dissuade you from slicing and dicing the available information to suit your own purposes, but in case the above is too subtle.... SELLING WHALE MEAT FOR EXPORT WOULD SEEM TO BE THE VERY DEFINITION OF "COMMERCIAL". Norway is probably the richest country in Europe. They are not suffering for income. |
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Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable. |
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22nd May 2012, 01:32 AM | #455 |
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Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable. |
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22nd May 2012, 01:42 AM | #456 |
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22nd May 2012, 04:24 AM | #458 |
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Indeed, I was mistaken about the operations in Norway and Iceland. The only thing I would add is that the operation in Japan is a level of sophistication another level beyond them, but no more commercial.
The question is is this sustainable? Or is it only sustainable if every other country on the planet continues to honour the moratorium? History suggests at least the traditional hunts are. |
22nd May 2012, 07:09 AM | #459 |
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Thanks, Furcifer - sorry for the snark, as I was on my way out to go shop hunting and in a rush.
Below will be a long rambling post. I kept wanting to interject, but when I found the time to post something, the thread had gone ahead another fifty posts. I decided this afternoon to just respond where I felt I should. The rest of the story.... Next up: The politics of the IWC. Simply put, the original International Whaling Commission (or its predecessor) was made up of whaling nations. Some of those (USA, Australia, NZ - notably) have actually turned away from whaling for ecological reasons and because there just wasn't any great demand for the products and byproducts, IMHO. The anti-whaling coalition (if it was that) realized it was never going to get the a majority of the whaling nations to go for a moratorium or ban, so began a process of lobbying to get non-whaling even landlocked nations onto the commission. Once that happened and you could have Liechtenstein, Switzerland Mongolia, etc... in there, the question became... "What do we do with these new members?" Simple, if you listen to Japan and their supporters. You buy their votes with other favors (I think the USA is accused of buying China's votes with a trade deal of some sort, can't remember the details). And that's how you got a large group of non-whaling nations who call themselves the Int'l Whaling Commission to vote against the actual whaling nations. Only in the past decade did Japan realize how neatly this worked and started offering massive foreign aid to countries who have no whaling interests,.... in exchange for... you guessed it... supporting votes on the commission. The whole situation is rife with politics. Rife? Contaminated, festering,... you name it. Sustainability? Hard to say. The anti-whaling coalition accuses Japan and Norway of both miscounting (or misusing the counts of others in the case of Japan) the Minke population so that they can harvest more. The pro-whaling nations (and their stooges voting with them) accuse the anti-whalers and the IWC of lowering the Minke count, changing it from month to month to suit their own purposes, and then stalling and delaying year after year so they couldn't come to any sort of numerical conclusion as to what might be a viable number to extract yet still sustain a viable population of the species. That, I believe, was when Norway and Iceland upped the ante and said, "Hey, we object originally. We're now formally exercising that objection and you can go suck an egg." Both sides are probably both right. Festering with politics, indeed. Meh? I like whales. I want them alive and well and their population growing. I can't see any real need to give Ryokan his whale steak when the process seems so damned unnecessary. (Nothing against Ryokan - Mr. Nagura in Osaka could be substituted if you wish. Ryokan just happened to speak up, here.) But that's the gist of my stand on this. I will take the emotional argument and I'm entitled to do so, opinions being opinions and all that. But I will not pretend that I think the "science" backs me fully, nor will I come down on the side of the total banners who try to base it on doomsday scare tactics. I feel that if they're just simply against killing whales,.... just say so. Quit trying to couch it in other terms. And Paul Watson is a jerk. Eco-terrorism is not something I can support. And while Bethune is every bit as radical in his approach to the topic, he seems to have made some serious points against Watson in their battles, particularly that Watson is a liar and manipulator. (See "Bows and Arrows" for one.) When Watson published their email exchange I find it notable that he didn't refute or debunk anything Bethune claimed. He merely kept calling him a stool pigeon and turncoat. I suggest reading Bethune first (it's lower on the page) and while he sounds a bit petty and more than a bit paranoid, he makes some very specific accusations. Watson responded within three hours but made no effort to refute those specific accusations. I'm quite surprised he thinks this makes him look good. http://www.seashepherd.org/news-and-...this-drama-127 Ady Gil (there is a person of that name - a major donor to Sea Shepherd) is on record as believing Bethune. Bethune, himself, has not turned pro-whaling nor changed his radical approach. His stand is that they are so right that there's no need to manipulate the truth or lie about things. Bethune, to any who are totally pro-whaling, is far from a saint. And, to be honest, I have to say I have my misgiving, too. While apparently everyone at Sea Shepherd signed on to it, the bows-and-arrows were apparently his idea. That's some pretty dirty pool, right there and it gives me pause as to whether his comments about lying and manipulating are quite so sincere. |
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Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable. |
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22nd May 2012, 07:50 AM | #460 |
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Good posts.
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22nd May 2012, 09:31 AM | #461 |
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That pretty much sums up how I feel about it all.
Whaling exists for two primary reasons; economics and heritage. Focusing on economics, making whaling cost prohibitive would reduce the industry. Watson and his crew have had little (to no) impact, and IMO think the money they are spending could be better used. |
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22nd May 2012, 11:50 AM | #462 |
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After spending enough time arguing with Sea Shepherd supporters, I can honestly say they are the most childish individuals on the fave of the planet.
Here's the main problem: 1. They think they're conserving wild life but they have a very limited and ignorant understanding of how conservation works. 2. They constantly bash religion and tradition yet they present themselves as moral absolutists. 3. They paint their actions to make it seem they are all about conservation but the fact is that their views are completely ideological in nature. 4. They attack peoples traditions without trying to understand why they hunt whale and ethnocentrically paint people as "primitive" and "barbaric" just because they're hunting something they see as cute. |
22nd May 2012, 02:22 PM | #463 |
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Thanks FW, some good info.
The way I see it despite Watson being a goof he's the only one out there doing something. If anyone thinks they can do better grab a boat and send me your PayPal info. Feel free to start a signature list if you think that will help, but forgive me if I don't think it will do much. As for the whaling, I personally don't think they should be hunted but I can respect "tradition". At the same time I'm not going to mix words, this tradition is primitive. If you want to say "Hey but eating meat is primitive" I'm not going to argue it. I am going to point out that at least we've domesticated cows and now we don't have to worry about eating them into extinction. If people don't see the difference, well whatever, I see the difference. This is 2012 and the fact is if someone in Turkey decides they're interested in hunting whales the previous limitations which made it unfeasible don't exist. Do they have equal claim to the catch as the US with many times the people? Or does Canada have more claim than the US because of the extensive coastline? Beats me, but that seems like something that should be ironed out before the hunt. As far as I can tell that hasn't happened. Long story short it's a political cluster bleep and as long as it goes on I don't have any problem with a cluster bleep of an activist running interference. |
22nd May 2012, 03:04 PM | #464 |
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Something should be done. This is something. Therefore, this should be done.
I'm all for people applying solutions to problems. But I don't think that if there's no solution being applied, it's ever a good idea to apply a problem to a problem instead. The Sea Shepherd folks are a tragicomic hybrid of frothing incompetents and confrontation junkies. They're not really a "good enough" solution that we should welcome while we wait for something better to come along. |
22nd May 2012, 03:50 PM | #465 |
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22nd May 2012, 03:58 PM | #466 |
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I think anyone who applies some forward thinking to the problem will realize that whatever the real solution to the "whaling problem" will be, it won't involve getting on a boat.
However, despite things like the statements posted in this very thread from the government of Australia for instance regarding measures they're pursuing, people will continue to justify the actions of Sea Shepherds by claiming that "nobody else is doing anything". |
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22nd May 2012, 04:03 PM | #467 |
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Not that there is anything wrong with being on a boat.
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22nd May 2012, 05:33 PM | #468 |
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I updated my Facebook status to "saving the whales", change is on the wind.
The point is Watson isn't a nuisance, he's a public nuisance. That may be more effective than an International stalemate with a country many rely on for trade. The Japanese have taken hostages and started to kill them, seems like the right time to pull the negotiator and send in the sniper. |
22nd May 2012, 10:16 PM | #469 |
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Pfft. Telling a commercial fisherman what a commercial fisherman is.
This has been the most amusing thread watching you twist yourself into knots instead of just being honest that you are a moral absolutist about whales. They're sacred to you. So what? Cows are sacred to many Indians. White bears were sacred to the peoples in that vicinity of British Columbia where they are common. At least all those people are honest. There isn't anything to argue about. and this:
Quote:
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23rd May 2012, 02:56 AM | #470 |
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23rd May 2012, 03:01 AM | #471 |
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23rd May 2012, 04:28 AM | #472 |
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"Commecial fisherman", that's just another word for professional liar
You should know full well the sale of fish has almost nothing to do with being commercial. It's really about capacity and once the fisheries have determined your capacity exceeds that of "sport" you're pretty much commercial and require additional licensing. But you know that. Everyone knows that and now we're just splitting hairs in an attempt to apologize for what the Japanese, and yes a few other countries are doing. Shameful. I've also said numerous times I don't care if whales are hunted so long as it's sustainable. I don't know what purpose it serves to continue to suggest otherwise? I've admitted as much your pleading won't change that. |
23rd May 2012, 04:39 AM | #473 |
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23rd May 2012, 04:51 AM | #474 |
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23rd May 2012, 10:25 AM | #475 |
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23rd May 2012, 01:22 PM | #476 |
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23rd May 2012, 01:37 PM | #477 |
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23rd May 2012, 01:40 PM | #478 |
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23rd May 2012, 01:44 PM | #479 |
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HAHAHAHAHA really?
Okay, fair objection. Let's say this instead: nobody but him seems to remember him being a founder. |
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23rd May 2012, 01:51 PM | #480 |
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*sigh
"How many" is a quantity. Quantity is not the same as capacity. I thought I gave some simple examples but apparently this is a complicated concept. A man with a fishing pole and a lure can catch 1 fish at a time. He is considered a sport fisherman. Even if he catches 10 fish. The same man with a net could catch 10 maybe 100 fish in a net. His capacity to catch fish with a net is greater than with a pole, even if he catches the same quantity of fish. This is why using a net usually requires a commercial fishing license. Even if you never sold a single fish, if you want to use a net you need a commercial license. This is why a couple guys on a 25 foot boat with some spears could very well be considered sport fishing and not commercial. This is why the "traditional" hunts aren't anything like what the Japanese are doing. The irony of you trolling this thread about fishing has not been lost on me. At least I hope you're trolling. |
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