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15th May 2012, 06:32 PM | #161 |
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Dessi...you know I love you...but seriously, how is that different than other animal's pain? Lobsters are dropped into boiling water while they are still alive! Dude...you know that's gotta suck.. How is that different than any other animal that is killed to be eaten? At least whales are dead when they are cooked...unlike crabs, crayfish, and lobsters.
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15th May 2012, 06:36 PM | #162 |
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What I would be interested to know is if the whales have an emotional component to pain. There are people who suffer a disconnect between pain centers in the brain and the centers for emotion. Similar to Capgras Syndrome this results in the individual being able to experience pain but not suffer severely for it. Often it is no more than a sensation. But, if that were the determining factor I would have to err on the side of the whale having an emotional component.
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15th May 2012, 06:38 PM | #163 |
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15th May 2012, 06:38 PM | #164 |
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how many times is someone going to answer your posts with "sentience" before you look it up ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentien..._and_sentience |
15th May 2012, 06:40 PM | #165 |
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Temple Grandin makes the case that lower form animals lack the necessary neurological equipment to appreciate pain (see nervous system complexity). I agree with her. FWIW: Temple modernized many of the slaughtering facilities for cows so as to reduce stress ans suffering (cows have the neurological equipment to suffer from pain and stress).
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15th May 2012, 06:43 PM | #166 |
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15th May 2012, 06:44 PM | #167 |
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15th May 2012, 06:50 PM | #168 |
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Dude...I know what sentience is. But I don't see it in the behavior of Minke or Pilot whales... Which is the main species being hunted by the Japanese in the Antarctic, and the villagers in the Faeroe Islands.
Species like the Blue whale, the Sperm Whale, and the Humpback whale should be protected because their numbers are few, and they take a long time to reproduce. But species of whale that are plentiful and not endangered should be game for cultures that depend on their bounty. |
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15th May 2012, 06:54 PM | #169 |
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15th May 2012, 06:59 PM | #170 |
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I kinda think that Japan ought to follow international law. JMO. But I'm guessing that no one really buys into the notion that this is for research. I think it has to do with a market for whale and people wanting money. Last I looked the Japanese were not suffering a famine.
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15th May 2012, 07:18 PM | #171 |
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If you all had tasted whale meat, you would all cheer the whalers on.
Mmm, whale meat. |
15th May 2012, 07:25 PM | #172 |
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I'm still wondering why it's ok to kill one animal because it has lesser intelligence than another? If a whale is in fact more intelligent than a cow...does a whale feel more pain when it is slaughtered?
What about a lobster that's dropped in a pot of boiling water? Is the lobster's pain less significant than a whales? Who determines which animals are ok to kill...and which animals are not? |
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15th May 2012, 07:28 PM | #173 |
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I don't think there's a credible distinction between any animals pain and another's, whether those animals belong to my species or another. I generally believe that that purposefully harming animals should be permitted only in the areas where it would be acceptable to inflict the same amount of harm on mentally similar humans.
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15th May 2012, 07:30 PM | #174 |
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It took me a couple of years to go through sixty pounds of whale meat. It is VERY strong, and you definitely know this thing came from the ocean. Bowhead.
Thus far not one of these shrill emotional defenders has been able to demonstrate any verifiable achievement by their superhero in actual conservation. It is pretty clear to me that he's doing what they want - not conservation, but just attacking people they hate. They hate whalers, so anyone killing a whaler is their hero. I'm glad this thread has given them the opportunity to showcase their base, malicious character. |
15th May 2012, 07:30 PM | #175 |
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My experiences with whale oil have been pretty stupid. Did you know they put it on the bearings of Phoropters? Like "is it better here, or here?" needs some heavy duty lubricant for plastic bearings.
I wouldn't mind eating a whale, but I mean the market for oil is at least partially artificial. |
15th May 2012, 07:34 PM | #176 |
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15th May 2012, 07:35 PM | #177 |
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Well...Dessi..would you agree that slitting your throat and letting you bleed to death would be less painful than plunging you in boiling water why you are still alive?
Boiling alive is a really suck ass way to go...but lobsters, crab and crayfish suffer this fate everyday. Why aren't Sea Shepherd trying to stop this atrocity? |
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15th May 2012, 07:36 PM | #178 |
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I don't know that it is okay for one and not the other. I understand the arguments though. I don't mean to argue via link (I'm not a proponent anyway) but if you are sincerly interested see Practical Ethics. It's explained in 4 paragraphs.
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15th May 2012, 07:42 PM | #179 |
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The point I'm trying to make Rand, is that all animals feel pain when they are killed. Whales feel pain...Cows feel pain...Goats feel pain...Sheep feel pain. Pain is universal to almost all species. For Sea Shepherd to claim that the pain of whales is somehow greater and more significant...and their death is more significant...does not sit well with me.
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15th May 2012, 07:43 PM | #180 |
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15th May 2012, 07:45 PM | #181 |
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15th May 2012, 07:47 PM | #182 |
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15th May 2012, 07:48 PM | #183 |
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15th May 2012, 07:49 PM | #184 |
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15th May 2012, 07:50 PM | #185 |
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15th May 2012, 07:50 PM | #186 |
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15th May 2012, 07:51 PM | #187 |
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How do self-aware animals experience pain that is different from non-self aware animals? Does being self-aware (which is in contention with Minke and Pilot whales) differ from being non-self aware?
Pain is pain...when something bites into your ass...it *********** hurts. and you run away. Whether you can recognize you image in a mirror or not makes no difference. |
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15th May 2012, 07:51 PM | #188 |
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This is a pretty stupid argument if you think about it.
Something has to be The Worst Thing In The World. For every issue other than that single one, someone can raise the stupid argument "Why do you care? You should be caring about The Worst Thing In The World! Ha ha, you are a hypocrite and I just caught you!". The answer is simply that there are lots of bad things in the world, we can't all be working to fix all of them, and fixing the second-worst thing should not wait on fixing the first-worst thing. Trying to fix any problem is laudable, and you don't lose credit just because there is some other problem you could be fixing. On the bright side, you've obviously solved the problems of AIDS, Middle East unrest the common cold because you have time to post here. That's good news at least. I'm glad the only problem left in the world for you to solve is someone being |
15th May 2012, 07:55 PM | #189 |
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15th May 2012, 07:57 PM | #190 |
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I doubt it provides a net benefit to the anti-whaling argument. I would venture to guess that Watson's idiotic antics have garnered the WHALERS a lot of sympathy and support from people who would've otherwise been neutral or even anti-whaling. Looking through the reactions in this thread provides a pretty good snapshot of this. |
15th May 2012, 08:01 PM | #191 |
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15th May 2012, 08:05 PM | #192 |
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15th May 2012, 08:12 PM | #193 |
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Well...I have to go to bed...the simple fact is Paul Watson is a *********** liar and deserves to spend a watery death under the ocean.
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15th May 2012, 08:14 PM | #194 |
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15th May 2012, 08:18 PM | #195 |
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15th May 2012, 08:20 PM | #196 |
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Self awareness is a benchmark we use for humans (see Terry Schivo).
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15th May 2012, 08:21 PM | #197 |
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15th May 2012, 08:23 PM | #198 |
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Euthanasia.
What? There's a horrible food shortage in Ireland I read about! To get back to what we were talking about, if there were an operation where feeble minded humans were being clubbed to death (for reasons I can't put together but that is not the point) I sure wouldn't try to combat it with vehicle bump and run. And I sure as heck wouldn't let a commercial TV operation tag along while I put into practice what I would do about it. |
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15th May 2012, 08:23 PM | #199 |
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15th May 2012, 08:27 PM | #200 |
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Hold on, I've explained how it is different for lower form animals. Stimulation isn't comprehended or experienced the same. It's just a sensation. We have humans that we can talk to who lack an emotional component for pain and they explain pain as simply a sensation. Further, for other lower form animals the pain isn't part of a conscious experience, they cannot "feel" pain anymore than a computer can. You are anthropomorphizing, you are also engaging in a hasty generalization.
Can you acknowledge that much? |
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