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15th May 2012, 08:31 PM | #201 |
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No...Pain is pain...just because you recognize your image in a mirror doesn't mean you feel anything different from other creatures that don't. If something tears you apart....the pain is the same...whether you are sentient or not.
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15th May 2012, 08:33 PM | #202 |
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15th May 2012, 08:38 PM | #203 |
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BTW: I eat meat and I'm against the sea shepherd. I don't claim that whales should not be hunted. I've no dog in the fight. I'm just trying to tell you what the science is. Refusing to acknowledge science and empirical facts is just bad form.
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15th May 2012, 08:38 PM | #204 |
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15th May 2012, 08:42 PM | #205 |
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I deleted it. It was wrong and I apologize. It's just that I rarely get someone so intransigent and refusing to accept facts unless they are a creationist or truther.
Look, I don't care what you think. I really don't. It's very frustrating when someone simply argues by assertion and refuses to acknowledge the science though. Stating over and over that "pain is pain" when cognitive neuroscientists have demonstrated empirically that it is wrong is just bad form.
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15th May 2012, 08:55 PM | #206 |
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Guys, if we were all to agree that hunting any kind of whale is 100% wrong, Paul Watson is still an aged, barnacle-encrusted scrote. If you support him, you support old testicles. That's just the bottom line.
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15th May 2012, 08:55 PM | #207 |
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FRankly, it is not about being wrong/moral/sentience, it is about whaling being legal. It is legal. PERIOD.
What does sea Shepherd is ilelgal and dangerous. You want to decide it is right ? Fine. But as said upthread, a lot of people sees legal activity as wrong which others sees as right. Who is then to judge which activity can be "vigilanted" upon and is really wrong , and which are right and should not be "vigilanted" upon ? You don't see where this lead ? Again, some might see letting , say, atheist live in the neighborhood as wrong and an affront to god. Or some might see meat eating as morally wrong and act upon ramming truck trasnporting meat. That is why vigilantism is terrible. Change the rules of law if you wish. Thru legal means. If you choose an illegal means and vigilantism, I hope you get reamed as it should be. |
15th May 2012, 08:55 PM | #208 |
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ok try this
go find a bull and hold a knife to its testicles, now do the same to a human see the difference, for most animals pain causes a motor response, it makes them move away from the thing causing the pain, when the pain stops, so does the distress for the sentient, its emotional torture as well, knowing that you'll die, knowing that you won't see your loved ones again, knowing that you won't be around to watch your children grow, knowing that someone is deliberately doing that to you, thats the difference but we're way off topic here, which if I'm not mistaken is how much of a Dick Paul Watson is |
15th May 2012, 08:56 PM | #209 |
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So the harpoons are just for defense, makes perfect sense.
I don't have a problem with whaling per se, but the I think the Japanese quota includes protected species. That doesn't seem right. The fact that other countries protect the whales for the benefit of those that don't kind of irks me. Especially in this industry where the capacity to hunt them seems much greater than the supply. If every country did research like the Japanese there wouldn't be much to research in a decade. |
15th May 2012, 08:59 PM | #210 |
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Go **** yourself for associating me the truther vermin. I have nothing else to say to you. Just because I believe something different than you doesn't make a nutjob.
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15th May 2012, 09:01 PM | #211 |
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15th May 2012, 09:05 PM | #212 |
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**** this ****. I'm outta here.
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15th May 2012, 09:14 PM | #213 |
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15th May 2012, 09:17 PM | #214 |
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15th May 2012, 09:31 PM | #215 |
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Your terrorist hero is in jail where he belongs. As with all thugs, the measure of success is not positive achievement in conservation, but how much harm you can do to those you hate.
Following the example of your hero, you're really pleased with yourself for being enough of an a**hole to get someone angry. You don't see how obvious you are in conservation not even being relevant to you. The important thing is hurting someone else. See how I "won?" I got him angry. |
15th May 2012, 09:35 PM | #216 |
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I'm glad Watson is in jail. He was never a hero of mine. I don't support their cause.
As for Macgyver1968, ignoring an argument and repeating the same silly assertion in spite of facts isn't a a friendly form of argument. The difference is that I had the decency to apologize. All he could do was post epithets and skulk off. Keep your guilt trip. |
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15th May 2012, 09:55 PM | #217 |
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Hey RandFan. Not speaking to you.
But since you have my attention, let me say that you have seemed a very level headed and fair fellow wherever I have seen you, including here. Kudos especially for apologizing, and deleting your own ad-hom. As far as I am concerened you gained even more respect than I already had for you. Take care. |
15th May 2012, 09:56 PM | #218 |
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15th May 2012, 10:00 PM | #219 |
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15th May 2012, 10:16 PM | #220 |
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15th May 2012, 10:19 PM | #221 |
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I think no matter how you feel about whaling in general, I think its fair to say that Japanese whaling has as much to do with research as the Sea Shepard does with whale conservation.
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15th May 2012, 10:30 PM | #222 |
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Your position is confusing to me in that I really don't see much of a distinction between what the Inuit do and the Japanese. I understand that some think whaling is always bad, a view I've held the majority of my life, but these two cultures are both trying to hold on to something they see as their respective heritage, perhaps a bad culture practice and I understand that argument but cultural nonetheless and they use similar excuses, I really don't see much difference.
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15th May 2012, 10:31 PM | #223 |
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15th May 2012, 10:38 PM | #224 |
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I disagree. I think that Muk Tuk is disgusting and the meat itself is OK but nothing to write home about. Its tender for sure but very marbled with fat as well. Of course, the meat I had was only boiled in water without any flavoring or spices at all so I don't know what it would be like if properly prepared. The Inuit insisted that the photos were not free and that I had to participate in the work, the food, and the festivities. Cultural immersion I suppose.
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15th May 2012, 10:45 PM | #225 |
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In point of fact Antarctica is visited by hundreds of tourists every year on cruise ships and private yachts. And that's not counting the however many visitors like this tool who declare that they will not be following any country's laws about visiting Antarctica (but still expect Southern Ocean nations to respond when they need assistance) and never check in with anyone.
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15th May 2012, 10:46 PM | #226 |
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Boiled? Sounds horrible.. Treat it like a steak and it turns out delicious.
Whale meat isn't every day food in Norway. I eat it less than once a year, and mostly only when grandma makes it. But it sure is a treat. I see the word 'heritage' thrown around, and I'm sure that's part of why the Inuits and Faroese do it. But when it comes to Japan, I suspect they do it for the same reason we Norwegians do it: We see it as a great tasting meat and a real treat. |
15th May 2012, 10:48 PM | #227 |
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15th May 2012, 10:51 PM | #228 |
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I saw him reacting to a personal insult the way most people do: personal insults make people angry.
Sure, Randfan apologized but you then very quickly took the opportunity to make fun of him in a pretty dirty fashion - advancing the fallacy that getting angry at a personal insult is the same thing as a bankrupt emotional argument. He got angry and left at that dirty tactic of yours, which was on top of a previously dirty tactic by someone else. And you followed with another one too. Human nature dictates that once anger is provoked, the apology does not instantly vacate that anger so it is an especially vulnerable time for the person provoked. But I do withdraw any statement about Watson being your terrorist hero. I actually did think a previous comment with an ad hom in it was yours, and it wasn't. You were just having a lot of fun making him angry, basically accusing him of being a hypocrite which was not true and a cheap shot. So I apologize for that confusion but it remains true you took a cheap shot at a guy who was already provoked, and you thought that was funny. |
15th May 2012, 10:56 PM | #229 |
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you are confusing humour with dirty tactics, there has been no anomosity between Magyver and me in this thread at all and at no time have I accused anyone of being a hypocrite, maybe you should go back and re read it,
admit it, you went off on one with no reason apart from that which you have already admitted you misread which I didn't post, your accusation of enmity on my part therefore was made under a misunderstanding and is unfounded. You have yet to withdraw that like you did your claim Watson is my hero show me yours ! This wasn't a contest that was Randfan, your post was all over the shop wasn't it |
15th May 2012, 10:57 PM | #230 |
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15th May 2012, 11:31 PM | #231 |
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16th May 2012, 01:00 AM | #232 |
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Sounds like an argument for legalizing abortion through the 24th trimester to me.
Or are you arguing that--whales and humans being roughly equal--it's in our best interest to prohibit the killing of whales, in order to justify prohibiting the killing of humans. Is that what you're arguing? |
16th May 2012, 01:22 AM | #233 |
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You totally missed the point. He was responding to an argument that went along the lines of "Why would they try to prevent whaling when there are worse things out there?" The point is that there is always "worse stuff" out there, and at any rate what issue is worse than another is open for debate. If there's a problem, then it's perfectly ok that someone spends time trying to solve it or at least get people to pay attention to it, regardless of whether there are worse problems out there.
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16th May 2012, 01:27 AM | #234 |
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I don't see the distinction either.
I think the difference is that there are more Japanese people or something and letting them hunt whales will take whales away from the Inuit, Norwegians, Faroese, Icelanders, people in Chukotka Autonomous Oblast (Russia), people from Lamalera and Lamakera (Indonesia), and people from various Caribbean countries and do you want all those people to starve?
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16th May 2012, 02:15 AM | #235 |
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Me either. I suspect some fuzzy-headed Rousseau-esque "noble savage" rubbish or equally foolish cultural relativist ideas influenced the decision to let tribal people kill whales. My view is that they should be made to knock it off just as the Japanese should be made to knock it off. It's 2012, they don't need to kill whales and we shouldn't tolerate them killing whales for fun or for profit.
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16th May 2012, 02:25 AM | #236 |
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What's with the 'don't need to' argument? If we're only going to eat food we really need, we'd all have a very bland diet. There's a lot of stuff out there that we don't need to eat.
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16th May 2012, 02:58 AM | #237 |
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16th May 2012, 03:06 AM | #238 |
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16th May 2012, 03:18 AM | #239 |
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16th May 2012, 03:47 AM | #240 |
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