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16th May 2012, 04:14 AM | #241 |
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Just because one opposes whaling doesn't mean that one has to approve of the actions of every jerk who also opposes it.
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16th May 2012, 04:29 AM | #242 |
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I've crewed on boats...
I consider myself careless... That guy is RECKLESS. It's OK to put yourself in harm's way - it is not OK to risk other people's lives (and some of the people on his boat are downright naive). |
16th May 2012, 04:54 AM | #243 |
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So this is where the Usual Suspects have been instead of the other animal thread.
Personally, I think there are more effective/meaningful ways of making progress on this issue. |
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16th May 2012, 05:21 AM | #244 |
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16th May 2012, 05:33 AM | #245 |
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16th May 2012, 05:55 AM | #246 |
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One is commercial and one isn't. One is in international waters and one isn't. One is for personal use and one is for sale to the highest bidder.
If the Japanese want to commercially fish their own waters that's their right I suppose, but if they want to harvest marine mammals in international waters they should get 'international' permission. It just seems right. |
16th May 2012, 06:18 AM | #247 |
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16th May 2012, 06:21 AM | #248 |
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Quote:
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16th May 2012, 06:26 AM | #249 |
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16th May 2012, 06:28 AM | #250 |
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16th May 2012, 06:38 AM | #251 |
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16th May 2012, 08:05 AM | #252 |
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That's not my argument. You are conflating to separate premises but I admit that I have not been clear. I have argued for the position of *Temple Grandin that suffering is on a gradient. While I believe self-awareness is very likely important for how an animals experiences pain I do not hold that only self-aware animals suffer.
Originally Posted by Grandin
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16th May 2012, 08:30 AM | #253 |
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You are laboring under a misconception. I am countering the argument that "pain-is-pain". I posit that not all people experience pain similarly. I note that humans on average have both a sensory and emotional component to pain. The emotional component significantly increases the severity of the pain and the suffering. For some people pain is just an annoying sensation and they can endure pain more easily.
To the extent that inferences from dolphins are made for whales in general, it's not a hasty generalization because much study has been done on both whales and dolphins and they share many things in common including relative brain size, brain complexity, complex social behavior and communication. Scientists must often make these kinds of inferences because studying every species in depth is not possible. The inferences are not unreasonable. Your criticism is more typical of the anti-evolution crowd who seek only to make negative claims. In any event,
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16th May 2012, 08:35 AM | #254 |
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16th May 2012, 08:36 AM | #255 |
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16th May 2012, 08:40 AM | #256 |
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16th May 2012, 08:40 AM | #257 |
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I'm sorry, but if you can't see the Shonan Maru turning HARD towards the Ady Gil, you really need glasses. The captain of the Ady Gil wasn't even piloting the ship. They were idling for chrissake.
I can understand you people not liking them, but to interpret this as anything other than the Japanese ship turning toward the Ady Gil and intentionally ramming it is beyond insane. |
16th May 2012, 08:42 AM | #258 |
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16th May 2012, 08:55 AM | #259 |
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16th May 2012, 09:11 AM | #260 |
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OWS could learn something from the whaling wars. They need some butyric acid.
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16th May 2012, 09:30 AM | #261 |
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Actually I do need glasses, and indeed wear them. And was wearing them when I looked at the footage. Which is how I could see that the Ady Gil accelerated into the side of the whaling ship.
In a broader sense, as the far faster and far more manoeuvrable ship the Ady Gil is responsible for not putting itself into that position in the first place. And of course in an even broader sense the Sea Shepherds are a terrorist organisation that exists to break the law, and they should even have been there in the first place. Any way you look at it, it was their fault. Personally I honestly wish that the Japanese government would send one of those nice little Hayabusa class patrol boats along to protect their ships. Would love to see what one of those 76mm cannon would do. It'll never happen, the Japanese are far too civilised to treat the Clowns of the Sea the way they deserve to be treated. But a man can dream, dammit. A man can dream! |
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16th May 2012, 09:55 AM | #262 |
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16th May 2012, 09:58 AM | #263 |
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The quota is a limit, not a goal, you know.
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16th May 2012, 10:10 AM | #264 | |||
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Oh.
my. GOD. ***Some potty-mouth language and I would recommend turning your volume down due to the LRAD at about 2:00.
Look how far away the Shonan Maru was. There is no way the captain of that ship should have closed to the Ady Gil from that distance. At the beginning, the Ady Gil is underway, at a very slow speed. Then Captain Bethune tells the helmsman to slow down. Around 2:00 it is painfully clear that they are barely even moving. You can also see the Shonan Maru turn hard toward the Ady Gil. There simply is no other way to intepret this. I would think by now I've shown that I can be reasonable, and that I do my research. I'm not a "throw it against the wall and hope it sticks" storyteller like our truthers are. The Shonan Maru intentionally rammed the Ady Gil. That is what happened. Any other interpretation is flat-out false. The only reason you see the Ady Gil increase speed from (from the view of the Japanese ship) is to get out of the way. You can't see this from the Ady Gil view because the cameraman was too busy trying to not be murdered. |
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16th May 2012, 10:13 AM | #265 |
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16th May 2012, 10:20 AM | #266 |
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Quote:
Again, SSCS never said they were anything but an action-oriented organization. They're not pretending to be nice guys. |
16th May 2012, 10:21 AM | #267 |
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Nothing in that changes what I saw happening; the Ady Gil rammed into the side of the whaling ship.
Did the whaling ship manoeuvre up close to them in the first place? Sure. So what? That has nothing to do with anything. In the last ten seconds or so up to the impact, the Ady Gil accelerates forward and into the side of the whaling ship.
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Still, I do concede that the collision might be a result of their utter incompetence rather than a deliberate attempt at martyrdom. |
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16th May 2012, 10:52 AM | #268 |
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Um...what? I'm no mariner, but I think that if your ship is hardly moving, it's difficult to ram a larger ship almost a mile away. Tell me, how do you ram a ship coming at you when you're not moving? The full report makes this quite clear that the Shonan Maru #2 is the ship that was overtaking the Ady Gil, and as such was the ship responsible for safety. Yea, yea, I know.... LINK! (This is a direct link to a PDF. I can't it on a normal website)
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16th May 2012, 10:52 AM | #269 |
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16th May 2012, 11:33 AM | #270 |
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So what about the people of Lamalera and Lamakera in Indonesia? They hunt whales for "personal use", and are legally permitted to do so, but they also trade the meat for other goods. Are they acting in a commercial or non-commercial fashion?
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16th May 2012, 11:56 AM | #271 |
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As someone who has spent a few years at sea I have to say that the SS are at best irresponsible seamen. What's worse is that they know it and are doing it on purpose. They regularly take on a substantial number of crew members who have never been to sea and it shows in some of the boneheaded things that they do (and that's just what we see on a one hour show so you know that there's a lot more boneheaded stuff that we don't see).
Then there's the danger that they seemingly have no problem placing others in. Prop fouling for example. Intentionally causing another ship to lose power in the middle of a notoriously rough ocean is, in my opinion, attempted murder. What's really funny is that in the latest iteration of Whale Wars (in the islands northwest of Scotland) one of their small boats was prop fouled by the "Whalers" and they were crying about that tactic being illegal (and they were in nowhere near as dangerous waters as the Southern Ocean). In the case of the Ady Gil they intentionally created a situation where they stood a good chance of causing a collision (much like how someone looking to collect on car insurance might slam on the brakes in the middle of a highway in order to get rear ended because the other car was following "Too closely"). While they may have been borderline correct in their actions as per the international rules of the road they were still clearly held at least half of the blame in that incident and I believe that's what a few different international courts found as well. I used to listen to whales at sea (in the sonar shack and sometimes I could hear them in my bunk through the pressure hull) and I don't think that they should be hunted yet I too couldn't help but start to root for the whalers only because of the SS actions. I read some of the Animal Planet forums a few years back when Whale Wars was first airing and the overwhelming response was pro whalers (not pro whaling, there is a difference). The following seasons they cut back on the boneheaded stuff being shown but I have no doubt that it was still going on. Idiots like that don't just stop being idiots all of a sudden. In my opinion they are eco-terrorists and I'm not alone in that conclusion. They have a very hard time getting their vessels flagged (several nations have pulled their previously granted flagged status from the Sea Shepards solely due to their illegal actions). |
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16th May 2012, 12:00 PM | #272 |
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(AKA Lying their asses off about it?) |
16th May 2012, 12:05 PM | #273 |
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At the point the Ady Gil accelerates towards it the ship is only about 20 yards away. I think it's quite easy to do it from that distance myself.
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These lunatics openly admit that they want to be out there to get in close and get in the way. What happens as a result is their fault. |
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16th May 2012, 12:12 PM | #274 | |||
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Collision from the Shonan Maru's perspective
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16th May 2012, 12:24 PM | #275 |
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16th May 2012, 12:27 PM | #276 |
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I like how water cannon guy keeps spraying the Andy Gibb even after his ship performs a radical rhinoplasty on it.
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16th May 2012, 12:27 PM | #277 |
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The Shonan Maru was overtaking the Ady Gil, it was their responisibility to steer clear. |
16th May 2012, 12:30 PM | #278 |
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In the very beginning of that video, the Ady Gil is not moving. AT ALL. It's in idle. It was that way more than a minute. Each and every second of that minute the Shonan Maru was turning hard to intercept and ram the Ady Gil. It was the Shonan that closed onto the Ady Gil, not the other way around. Only when it was too late did the helmsman of the Ady Gil figure out what the hell was going on, and that's when you see the propwash of the Ady Gil as they attempt to get out of dodge.
I'd also like to find where Pete Bethune orders the helmsman to ram the Shonan Maru. Where's the order? He's outside the ship, as a matter of fact, all you can hear him say in the video taken from the Ady Gil is an order to slow down. |
16th May 2012, 12:30 PM | #279 |
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And you can clearly see the prop wash from the Ady Gil increase from idle (almost imperceptible) to ahead speed (white foam) just as the bow of the Maru approached them. If they hadn't had done that then they wouldn't have been hit. Like I said, both were held at fault for the collision. The Maru for being so close and the Gil for crossing the path of an approaching ship. The Gil was there to harass and cause problems to the whalers and that's what they did until they forgot that fifty tons of steel will always win over 3 tons of carbon fiber and fiberglass.
There was some speculation at the time by others that the Ady was near the end of her operational cycle due to cracks in her framing and so on and that the repairs were going to cost more than what the ship was originally built for and that's why they took so many risks with her. She was expendable. |
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