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16th May 2012, 12:51 PM | #281 |
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16th May 2012, 12:55 PM | #282 |
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Ah, okay. I was able to follow you that far. Where you lost me was with the example you gave: "Kind of like how supporting the IRA is american."
I guess since we both agree on the point itself, you probably don't need to explain why your example makes sense to you (and should to me). |
16th May 2012, 12:59 PM | #283 |
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The Gil was a trimaran, and originally designed to attempt a motorized around-the-world speed record (it failed). Captain Dickbeard later bought it. For saving whales it was useless in every sense; but when you've got enough "donations" pouring in, what else are you going to spend the money on but a tiny speedboat full of expensive high-tech gadgetry?
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16th May 2012, 01:00 PM | #284 |
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16th May 2012, 01:00 PM | #285 |
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16th May 2012, 01:03 PM | #286 |
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Hydrodynamics. Catamaran hulls have nearly half the drag of conventional hulls. That not only means more speed but also more distance for the same amount of fuel. It was purpose built for breaking the world record in circumnavigating the globe. From what I saw of her interior she was sorely lacking in crew amenities to help keep the weight down.
The stress on the hull was anticipated and they knew that it probably wouldn't be of much use after the world record attempt. If you watched the season where it was used they spent a lot of time at slower speeds and only sped up in calmer waters which I suspect was due to their knowing the true condition of the ship and how fragile it had become as well as the fact that even a small chunk of ice could easily sink her if struck at speed. |
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16th May 2012, 01:08 PM | #287 |
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The Gil was a trimaran, not a cat IIRC.
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16th May 2012, 01:16 PM | #288 |
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You can disagree all that you want. The New Zealand and Australian maritime courts found that both were at fault for the reasons that I gave. To be fair the Aussies went with inconclusive which is legal-speak for the evidence was against both captains so they couldn't decide who to blame but the NZ courts found both to be at blame.
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16th May 2012, 01:19 PM | #289 |
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16th May 2012, 01:19 PM | #290 |
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Thanks everyone for the info on the Andy Gil.
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16th May 2012, 01:20 PM | #291 |
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Yes it was but in my defense the same hydrodynamic principles still apply. Less wetted hull area means less drag and it's easier to plane up with a shallower draft spread out over a few hulls than it is to plane up on one deeper hull. See the Americas Cup for examples of this in action.
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16th May 2012, 01:24 PM | #292 |
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16th May 2012, 01:24 PM | #293 |
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16th May 2012, 02:17 PM | #294 |
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At least if they're starting to use fiberglass vessels they can't run into anyone again without sinking themselves (unless that's the plan).
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16th May 2012, 02:37 PM | #295 |
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16th May 2012, 02:44 PM | #296 |
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16th May 2012, 02:48 PM | #297 | |||
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..and if you listen closely, you hear them say "**** you, Whale!!!! and a **** you, dolphin!!"
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16th May 2012, 03:30 PM | #298 |
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I don't think there's any question the Japanese vessels are commercial fishing vessels. They even have commercial processing facilities if I'm not mistaken.
The fishing done in Canada, Norway and even in parts of Japan is done with recreational vessels. If that's what they use in Indonesia it's probably not what would typically be considered "commercial". The sale of fish isn't as much a determination as is the capacity to catch fish. If you fish all day with 2 poles and sell your fish you're not considered commercial. Use 3 poles, or a net you start getting into commercial fishing territory. I think the fact the Japanese are fishing in intenational waters and not coastal waters, like all of the other whaling operations, is a defining point. It's not like they're wandering a few miles off shore, they're scouring the globe. That's a level of organization only available to commercial operations. If it's "technically" OK to "research" whales with a harpoon, then it's "technically" OK to park your boat anywhere on the ocean. If chaos ensues because of this, well so be it. This is a political issue that isn't being addressed and maybe a little activism is in order. I mean "technically" Ms. Parks was breaking the law. "Technically" it would have done her some good to walk a few more feet to the back of the bus. "Technically" isn't a good answer when it means turning a blind eye to the underlying condition. |
16th May 2012, 03:44 PM | #299 |
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16th May 2012, 04:15 PM | #300 |
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It was the Maru's legal duty to steer well clear. If the Gill had remained stationary we'd be hearing "Why didn't they move? They were teh awsum speedboat, they could have moved forward out of the way!". They tried to get out of the way so we're hearing "Why did they move? If only they'd held perfectly still the nice Japanese whalers would have just given them a scare! It's the hippies' fault!".
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16th May 2012, 04:24 PM | #301 |
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And nobody is addressing the fact that all marine engines come with this wonderful component called a gearbox. It allows boats to move in reverse as well as ahead. A boat that is not moving has the ability to reverse immediately.
I suspect part of the reason that both vessels were found equally liable is because right-of-way rules dictate that if the stand-on vessel in any situation sees that the give-way vessel is not taking proper steps under the rules to avoid collision, the stand-on vessel then has a duty to maneuver as necessary to prevent the collision. Right-of-way is not a protected right to sit there and allow yourself to be hit if you can in fact prevent it. Even if we are to allow that the Ady really did remain completely still (even though it definitely did not), it was a performance vessel with a powerful engine and there was no single point at which it was not capable of easily backing out of the oncoming vessel's way. If the pilot "did not realize what was going on" until the moment of the collision, that's just more damning, as all vessels are required to keep an active watch at all times. In rough seas surrounded by multiple moving vessels in extreme close proximity is not the time to duck below for a sandwich. |
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16th May 2012, 04:48 PM | #302 |
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16th May 2012, 04:48 PM | #303 |
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16th May 2012, 05:08 PM | #304 |
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16th May 2012, 05:12 PM | #305 |
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I actually did wonder earlier on whether the Ady Gil might not have a reverse. That seemed really unlikely to me, but what with it being built as this highly specialised one trick pony, just maybe...
I googled around and couldn't find out. But even if that were so it would just make them even more to blame for going out with the intention of doing close in manoeuvring to harass other ships, using a boat that is only minimally capable of properly manoeuvring.
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But ultimately, whatever the technicalities of that particular incident might be... if the whalers had everything exactly their way, none of these ships would ever go near one another. The whalers just want to go about their lawful business. It is the Clowns of the Sea that go out and deliberately try to get in as close as possible to other ships. It is they that push the confrontations. It is they that bear the responsibility for the entire situation. I have absolutely no sympathy for them. I honestly don't see any problem with treating them any differently than Somali pirates or any other such scum. |
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16th May 2012, 05:14 PM | #306 |
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16th May 2012, 05:26 PM | #307 |
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It's pretty obvious the Japanese captain tried to ram the other ship. Proving it in court is another story. Arguing about it here is a lesson in futility. All I can suggest to anyone who thinks it was an accident is to watch the entire show, it might change your mind.
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16th May 2012, 06:05 PM | #308 |
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16th May 2012, 06:10 PM | #309 |
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16th May 2012, 06:52 PM | #310 |
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It is, but it's even more obvious we've been to the moon and there are people who question that. There's a slim chance the Japanese captain lost sight of them and veered the wrong way, but it's very slim. If it happened on day one of the hunt I'd probably give him the benefit of the doubt, but this is something like the third week of them pestering the Japanese and the Japanese taking a run at them. You have to watch the entire season to get a feeling for the cat and mouse game that was going on.
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16th May 2012, 06:53 PM | #311 |
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In the end, it all comes down to whether you think whales count as moral entities.
If you don't, if your entire moral universe consists of people and what they want to do, your position makes perfect sense. The Sea Shepherd organisation is annoying humans, the only beings who matter, to protect whales, that don't matter at all. Thus the Sea Shepherd people deserve to be killed... Oh hang on, that doesn't actually follow. You need some additional stupid ideas to make that argument work, including placing a very low value on human life. Oh well. But anyway, they at least deserve something bad for annoying humans to save whales. However if you think that whales actually matter, and that it actually matters whether they are killed inhumanely, then your position is clearly immoral. You have a scientific problem on your hands here, which is that there's no good scientific reason to put humans on a pedestal as the only beings that matter. We're just another species of animal like chimpanzees, dolphins, gorillas and whales. Drawing an arbitrary line between humans and animals is no more intellectually defensible than drawing an arbitrary line between men and women, or white people and brown people. Beings should be judged by the qualities they have, not what arbitrary label you put on them. |
16th May 2012, 06:59 PM | #312 |
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Think simpler, my friend.
Hull designers usually aren't engine designers; boatbuilders tend to use stock mechanical. The Ady Gil is no different in this regard...according to the Wikipedia entry, the boat uses twin 540hp engines fitted with ZF 305A gearboxes. These particular gearboxes can not only reverse, but are engineered to provide the same torque in reverse and ahead modes. Now, the hull shape may easily prevent the boat from doing its alleged 32-knot top speed in reverse; but 1080 combined horses will be able to yank any 13-ton vessel back smartly, especially a multihull with such little wet surface. In fact, I'd wager the Ady Gil might've been able to outrun that fat whaler in reverse in a dead pursuit. |
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16th May 2012, 07:03 PM | #313 |
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Kevin, you're building an argument on straw.
First, it isn't 'annoying' humans, it's putting humans in real danger of injury and death. Second, one need not assume anything about if you think whales are moral entities or not to oppose the tactics of the SS. The comparison to abortion clinic bombers is apt in that regard. You place a lot of emphasis on the ends the SS claims to want, protecting the whales. It's an 'ends justify the means' argument. However, even people who agree with the ends have been very critical of the means. It does not 'come down to whether you think whales count as moral entities'. It comes down to whether you believe the ends justify the means and that the means are actually reaching the ends. |
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16th May 2012, 07:06 PM | #314 |
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tyr 13, you're such a reasonable guy. Whether it's politics, religion or firearms, we can always count on you to post legitimate, well-reasoned ideas why one side or the other might be preferable.
I'm not sure you belong here. |
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16th May 2012, 07:44 PM | #315 |
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I'd have to take that wager. I've seen a lot of boats and I've never seen one go backwards anywhere near what they can go forwards. Not only are the hulls designed to go forwards but so are the props. I don't mean to be rude but your claim is pretty ridiculous IMO.
Plus those Japanese ships are extremely fast for their size. Someone more familiar with the Sea Shepard might chime in, but I believe it was a naval pursuit boat and it was getting lapped by the whaling boats. Sufficed to say despite their size they're no slouches in the water. |
16th May 2012, 07:47 PM | #316 |
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I'm with Howie,
Good post tyr 13. |
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16th May 2012, 07:50 PM | #317 |
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I'm not really that reasonable. After all, I just realized that Kevin's points were in regards to treating the SS people the same as Somali pirates, not in opposing the tactics of them. My post has straw issues of it's own.
Now the Somali pirates do gain a bit of sympathy for being from, you know, Somalia. It is worth considering that at some point to all of us, there are things where we would find violence and such tactics viable. I don't support whaling, but I also don't support the tactics of the SS people. |
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16th May 2012, 08:29 PM | #318 |
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That's pretty questionable. No humans have actually died, but hundreds of whales have (and hundreds more perhaps been saved). So if whale-life counts at all in your moral calculations you can't discount the possibility that the risk to human life is justified by the difference made to whale life.
Depending on your point of view it might or might not matter that the whales are innocent parties, whereas someone who has signed on for a Japanese whaling ship is not.
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Otherwise it's not apt, it's utterly idiotic.
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(I guess they missed the kill markings post, listing the whaling ships that Sea Shepherd have dealt with in the past. Of all the things to criticise Sea Shepherd for, ineffectiveness is clearly a very foolish and ignorant choice). |
16th May 2012, 09:07 PM | #319 |
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If the Gil could only reverse at 15% of its forward speed, that's almost 5 knots. More than enough speed to back out of the way.
1080hp is going to pull that boat back significantly faster than 5 knots, but anyway. You can contest that the Gil wouldn't be a screaming demon in reverse, but it was perfectly able to move out of the way; there's just no question. |
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17th May 2012, 12:34 AM | #320 |
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