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17th November 2012, 10:31 AM | #561 |
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You asked for times when you made assumptions. I gave you one. You asked for times you made claims. You were given them. You asked for times you made mistakes you were given them. Yet you still handwave it all away.
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17th November 2012, 11:05 AM | #562 |
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I won't go quite that far
I have not had a bad experience using apple maps so far. It is also rumored that the new google maps app will have turn by turn. If so, then apple has done all iOS users a service, as google has not previously offered turn-by-turn on iOS devices. Competition seems to have worked out in the users favor in this instance. |
17th November 2012, 11:23 AM | #563 |
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I like Tom Tom, so I like the interface for apple maps. But it has been brutal lately outside of big US cities. I'm in a Canadian provincial Capital city, and the iPhone has no clue where anything is. It's consistently a block or more off on urban destinations. I look forward to the google app.
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17th November 2012, 07:30 PM | #564 |
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Wait a second, are you still trying to claim that the original article was shipped VS sold?? Here's the original article that set off Apple fan damage control lo so many pages ago: http://www.reghardware.com/2012/10/2...ery_one_apple/
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If you aren't, then I am wondering why you bring that up. That claim was debunked merely by reading beyond the headline into the first few paragraphs! So after failing at that, you both tried to imply that there is some huge shipped/sold ratio discrepancy. And that Samsung is hoarding them all in some warehouse somewhere instead of actually selling them! I immediately demanded evidence for that claim. Saying that Apple gives sales figures has absolutely nothing to do with you proving that there is some huge difference in the shipped/sold ratio between the two companies. You need the sales and shipped figures from both companies to prove that. Just finding the sales figures from one of the companies doesn't give you the shipped/sold ratio for both companies! If you want to just make claims without backing them up, this is the wrong place to do it. |
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17th November 2012, 07:42 PM | #565 |
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It's pretty sad that you don't even see why that is wrong.
Companies have both Shipped and Sold numbers. I seriously doubt you deny that... The article had the sold numbers. Just because Apple also releases sold numbers doesn't mean the article didn't have the shipped numbers. That is just ridiculous. You finding sold numbers that are close to the shipped numbers only shows how tight these companies keep the shipped/sold ratio. They are right on top of supply and demand. At the same time you want us to believe that Samsung is different. They keep all theirs in a warehouse somewhere!! |
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17th November 2012, 07:49 PM | #566 |
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I quoted it several times. You hope people have missed it I'm sure:
Obviously a claim that if we did a 1 Phone VS 1 Phone comparison then it would be "surprising and/or impressive". That Apple would sell more if we did that comparison. Notice the word "outsell" in your quote. Then you had to damage control your damage control. Which only digs a deeper hole. Showing quite clearly that a 1 Phone VS 1 Phone comparison would not even work as Apple fan damage control. So then you backtracked and said "OH I was just pointing out that the iPhone was one phone and Samsung is 25 PLUS phones to show why Samsung sells more" A hilarious goalpost move that I thoroughly smashed: It's pretty hilarious that the rest of your current post is an exact duplicate of mine. You made the claim first and now you deny it. There is no getting around that fact. You made the claim. You back it up. That's how it works here. So, please, show us how if we did a 1 Phone vs. 1 Phone comparison that it would be Apple on top. Also notice how in the last several posts I was being gracious and not even pointing out that you flat out lied and said Apple only makes 1 phone, when in reality they currently offer 3. |
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17th November 2012, 08:09 PM | #567 |
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What's funny is, after the now famous article was posted (in the very next post after the article in fact!), you tried 2 arguments for damage control in ONE post:
The first claim was easily debunked merely by reading beyond the headline. The second claim was an old Apple fan standby that was thoroughly debunked by a poster here at JREF several months ago. You then went on for pages trying to damage control your failed damage control on both points! The first claim, that it was shipped vs sold. First you said it was not a valid comparison because it was shipped vs sold. Easily debunked. Then you tried to claim it was not a valid comparison because there is some huge difference in the shipped/sold ratio over at Samsung. With no evidence. Evidence of that was demanded, and you floundered. Then you went back to see if you could breathe some life into the first claim. You went and found sold numbers from Apple. You said "see Apple gives sold numbers!! They are similar to the shipped numbers from the article!! The article must have been wrong!!". It never even crossed your mind that maybe companies just keep a tight shipped/sold ratio.... Now on to the second claim. That is that Samsung is only selling more because they have 25 PLUS phones and Apple only has 1. You even clarified the claim here: Everyone can see the world "outsell" in that claim. Clearly you are implying (as your second method of damage control) that, were it not so, Apple would be the one "outselling". With no evidence at all. It was then pointed out that if you do a 1 VS 1 comparison of the 3 Galaxy S phones to their 3 sister iPhones that Apple would still be outsold. First you tried to demand evidence of that claim! Even though it was originally your claim that Apple would be outselling in a fair 1 vs 1 comparison. After you realized that doesn't fly here at the JREF, and that you would be the one that has to present those numbers, you then did this new hilarious dance of trying to claim that that isn't what you were claiming at all!! Funny how you didn't tell us that until after you found out that you would be the one that has to give us the numbers.... Then again you post that you were merely pointing out how one company is selling more. And that you were merely pointing it out for no reason at all!! Which, I might say, is some of the weirdest damage control I have yet to see. |
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18th November 2012, 09:54 AM | #568 |
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18th November 2012, 09:59 AM | #569 |
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Why are you ignoring that fact you said I was lying? Is that another claim you cannot back up?
Lets see where I claimed there was a discrepancy in shipped numbers between the companies? Go on. Just try. It was you who assumed they would be the same. So why are you so averse to get any figures and leave it to the rest of us? Just like assumptions eh? I have even went as far as getting sold versus sold. You just want to throw peanuts it seems. Only seems to be one person lying here. |
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19th November 2012, 01:27 AM | #570 |
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If no one is claiming there is a difference between the shipped/sold ratio of the two companies then why are we even talking about whether a sold vs. sold comparison is valid? Either way, if I at any point attributed claims made by others to you then I apologize. I wouldn't be surprised in dozens of post and thousands of words I made a few mistakes. |
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19th November 2012, 05:08 AM | #571 |
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19th November 2012, 06:30 AM | #572 |
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I'm embarrassed for you.
I made no claims about a 1 phone vs 1 phone comparison. You made that part up. What is obvious is if I had wanted to make that claim, that is what I would have written. Do you really think I could somehow prove how many phones samsung would sell if they they only made one phone ? I don't see how I could, and that's why I wouldn't (and didn't) make such a claim. Stop dishonestly putting words in my mouth. Apple makes 1 moedl, the iphone. It makes a new model once a year. They offer this years model, and the last 2 years models. Which is what I said. I didn't lie. |
19th November 2012, 06:47 AM | #573 |
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19th November 2012, 07:06 AM | #574 |
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no, it wasn't ...
Just for giggles, here are apples sales figuers for FY2012: q1 fy 2102: 37.04 million q2 fy 2012: 35.1 million q3 fy 2012 26 million q4 fy 2012: 26.9 million * ------------------------- That's roughly 125 million iphones. The best I can find for samsung is this: http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/tech...02300320F.HTML For the whole of 2012, sales of the smartphone that runs on the Android latest 4.0.4 "Ice Cream Sandwich" operating system, and features a 4.8-inch screen with Samsung's Exynos 4 quad core processor, could top the 40 million mark, making it an all time high for phones made by the South Korean tech giant. http://blogs.strategyanalytics.com/H...n-Q3-2012.aspx Samsung’s Galaxy S3 smartphone model shipped 18.0 million units worldwide during the third quarter of 2012....However, the Galaxy S3’s position as the world’s best-selling smartphone model is likely to be short-lived. The Apple iPhone 5 has gotten off to a solid start already with an estimated 6.0 million units shipped globally during Q3 2012. We expect the new iPhone 5 to out-ship Samsung’s Galaxy S3 in the coming fourth quarter of 2012 It's clear however you slice it - Samsungs high end iphone equivalent, the new Galaxy S III barely beat Apples 1 year old iphone 4s. The majority of smartphones Samsung sells are no more than feature phones. * http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2012...r-Results.html http://bgr.com/2012/04/24/apple-crus...timates-in-q2/ http://www.zdnet.com/apple-q4-2012-h...rs-7000006435/ http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2012...r-Results.html |
19th November 2012, 07:59 AM | #575 |
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I have posted some of this before; maybe you missed it.
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45.6 million > 26.9 million And no need to worry about ships vs. sales:
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19th November 2012, 08:34 AM | #576 |
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I understand they are technically smartphones. But in actual usage, based on ad revenue, mobile browser tracking, etc, they appear to be practically no different than featurephones.
Just to be clear, though, yes, they are smartphones. ETA: that's why I worded it: "no more than featurphones", but was not specific enough in my wording |
19th November 2012, 08:42 AM | #577 |
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No True Smartphone?
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19th November 2012, 08:50 AM | #578 |
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Sure. But to try to make it less fallacious ...
Companies are trying to make money from the smartphone experience, through mobile ads, etc. For example: http://www.economistgroup.com/leanba...phone-content/ If a large portion of the android smartphone market actually consists of handsets that are not updated and are not used for mobile web, etc, then the share of the market is less important then the percentage of that share that can be monetized. I think this is a separate topic, and we can move it to a new thread if you want to discuss it, but I hope that explains where I was coming from with the comment. |
19th November 2012, 09:14 AM | #579 |
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I read somewhere that Android users were more likely to use mobile web vs. Apple users. IIRC, the vast majority of bandwidth consumed by Apple users is via WiFi. One theory proposed for why was how the different OS prompts you to find WiFi networks.
As of May, global pageviews for Android and iOS are exactly the same, at around 23-24% share. http://mobithinking.com/mobile-marke...mobile-stats/b |
19th November 2012, 09:35 AM | #580 |
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I consider gadgets to be my major vice, and keep a very close and keen eye on the latest tech developments, so I make a point of looking out for mobile phones in the wild to see who is using what.
There are 10 people who work in our offices on a permanent basis, and every single one of them has an iPhone 4 or 4S. Of the 8 or so people who work in our Sister Offices at the other end of the corridor, 6 of them have iPhones, again the 4/4S. One person has the Galaxy S3, and he is the other owner of the two S3's I have seen in the wild. I'd guess that about 70% of the people I see in and out of our office during the day own an iPhone. All my close friends, and the vast majority of my friends own iPhones. If I look at my FB friends, I'd say about 80% of them own iPhones. I can't speak for the rest of the world, but everywhere I've ever been in the UK I see more people with iPhones than any other kind. I have the iPhone 5 myself, and I am extremely happy with it. It's just large enough while being comfortable to use, slim and light and extremely fast and smooth. |
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19th November 2012, 10:07 AM | #581 |
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Yes, that's my point - exactly the same browsing share, but with android having a 3-1 market share advantage.
This link tells a bit of a different story, though: http://www.netmarketshare.com/browse...=1&qpcustomb=1 |
19th November 2012, 10:43 AM | #582 |
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Actually it's pretty much the same story. You linked US-only numbers, and you included tablets. On the link that I posted above, you can see Apple far and away leading North America web pageviews via mobile devices. Adding iPads and focusing on the US would increase that share.
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19th November 2012, 10:59 AM | #583 |
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You are correct that the volume of Android smartphone browsing is comparable to the volume of iPhone browsing; however, given a 3-1 unit share advantage for Android, the data still strongly supports the point that iPhone users browse the web vastly more than Android smartphone users.
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19th November 2012, 11:36 AM | #584 |
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Broadly, your point is correct, but not based on the data you're replying to. You are conflating US and global figures, which seems to be the pattern in this discussion. There isn't a 3-1 unit share advantage for Android in the USA. That's the global figure. USA, it's probably 50% to 30%, or not even 2:1.
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19th November 2012, 12:43 PM | #585 |
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19th November 2012, 12:50 PM | #586 |
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Ah. Gotcha.
There's another factor, of which I was just reminded while traveling in Canada. In the US, unlimited data plans and cheap pricing per gig is more common than elsewhere. I have had unlimited data plans for 3 years plus. So American iPhone users can use more data without worrying about it. And again, they use a lot more WiFi too. Which jacks up the percent of bandwidth used by iOS. |
19th November 2012, 12:55 PM | #587 |
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19th November 2012, 01:02 PM | #588 |
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No, I'm pointing out that, in the US, where iOS has a higher market share vs. Android, the huge market size of internet-happy iOS users is disproportionately jacking up the global web usage share of iOS. I'm completely agreeing that iOS users use more internet.
More succinctly, you can't judge the market share of iOS vs. Android by looking at usage numbers like pageviews. |
19th November 2012, 02:40 PM | #589 |
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Wouldn't those unlimited plans similarly jack up the Android numbers, where it enjoys a 5-3 unit share advantage over iPhone? I just don't see an explanation that favors iPhone usage numbers.
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19th November 2012, 03:36 PM | #590 |
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Interesting. I'll have to think about it.
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19th November 2012, 05:00 PM | #591 |
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I'm not sure why this distinction is useful or important. If people are choosing to buy smartphones as opposed to a less expensive alternative (whatever the difference between a 'smartphone' and a 'feature phone' may be), whether or not they use all of the device's capabilities to their full potential, it is still a smartphone which they are choosing to buy instead of a less expensive alternative. Isn't that what is being discussed in this thread, how many of which kind of smartphone people are buying? I think TheL8Elvis is right about one thing. What people are doing with them probably deserves its own thread, since it isn't very relevant to this one. |
20th November 2012, 04:57 AM | #592 |
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20th November 2012, 07:20 AM | #593 |
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Jeez, do I really want to dip my toes in this thread? Many of the posts sound like someone defending their own mother. The above has been my experience as well - just about everyone I know or know of has an iPhone of some vintage. Reading through this head-scratchingly contentious thread I can only assume that Samsung phones are hugely popular "somewhere else". Possibly they are ubiquitous in China, Korea, Europe, etc. Possibly there are concentrations of buying patterns in the US as well. I don't really care which phone is leading in sales - but I must admit to some surprise at the fact that the Samsung phones hold a big lead. This would seem to be counter-intuitive from daily life. I guess what I am saying is that I would be curious to see if the sales numbers (which appear to be some elusive moving target) are skewed by heavy regional buying patterns - ie, almost everyone in Chine is buying Samsung phones. |
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20th November 2012, 08:08 AM | #594 |
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It matters a great deal to some people, like software developers. If you want to look at the potential market of smartphone users then you need to refine the raw unit sales numbers using the usage numbers. It's the reason iOS is still the first choice platform for new development.
But I'll let this tangent lie to avoid further derail. |
20th November 2012, 08:25 AM | #595 |
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Perhaps I should have been more explicit. (Always important in discussions of this nature, where some people seem inclined to seize on the least opportunity to misinterpret.) "I'm not sure why this distinction is useful or important as far as the subject of this discussion is concerned." Oh, wait. I did make that point. It was several sentences down, so I can understand how difficult it would be to catch. "Isn't that what is being discussed in this thread, how many of which kind of smartphone people are buying?" Certainly there are many areas of data which can be more or less significant to different interests for different reasons. My question was about why this particular metric was significant to the topic at hand, i.e. whether or not people are buying more iPhones or more Samsungs. Yes, what they subsequently choose to use them for is of vital interest to some developers and advertisers, but by that point the purchase choice has already been made. I'm not disputing anything. I'm wondering why it was brought up in this context in the first place. |
20th November 2012, 08:32 AM | #596 |
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20th November 2012, 10:06 AM | #597 |
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"Snarky self-righteousness"? Exaggerate much? I'm guessing you resort to this ad hom because you don't have any explanation as to why the this metric is significant to the discussion at hand. This started when TheL8Elvis was questioning comparative sales volumes on the basis that a smartphone wasn't really a smartphone if it wasn't used appropriately, and therefore shouldn't count ... somehow. Are you defending this position? 'Cause that's the torch you picked up. |
20th November 2012, 11:50 AM | #598 |
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I do not.
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20th November 2012, 02:02 PM | #599 |
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My point was a large portion of those 'smartphone sales' won't be easily monetized because they won't really be used any differently than a 'dumbphone' or 'featurephone'.
Do you disagree ? And it was in the context of : There is more to being in a good position in the smartphone market than simply sheer numbers/volume of sales. Do you disagree ? |
20th November 2012, 03:26 PM | #600 |
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