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Old 14th September 2020, 08:48 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Why would that be a problem? Upgrading the cell phone is only really needed if you want to use some new app that doesn't work on the old one. If you're just using the existing apps, you can keep the same phone pretty much for ever.
You can, provided you don't need the upgrades.

As I mentioned up thread, I've had a notification from Norton that they will soon stop supporting the version of Android which is the most recent one that still supports my tablet. They continually upgrade to cope with new viruses, but those updates will no longer be downloaded. So my tablet will no longer be protected from malware.
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Old 14th September 2020, 08:56 AM   #42
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That still falls under the category of whether you need a newer app. In your case, a newer version of Norton. But either way you want to classify that, I don't think the same applies to the on-board computer of a car. Any upgrades you need to keep the car running are provided by the manufacturer.
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Old 14th September 2020, 09:14 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
You can, provided you don't need the upgrades.



As I mentioned up thread, I've had a notification from Norton that they will soon stop supporting the version of Android which is the most recent one that still supports my tablet. They continually upgrade to cope with new viruses, but those updates will no longer be downloaded. So my tablet will no longer be protected from malware.
From new malware.
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Old 14th September 2020, 09:26 AM   #44
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Bitdefender for Android does very well in tests. It does require Android 5 so not sure if that would have been available for your device via updates.
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Old 14th September 2020, 10:23 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Any upgrades you need to keep the car running are provided by the manufacturer.
As long as the new owner agrees to keep up the old manufacturer's tech, yeah. I'm already stuck with a DVD navigation system that you can't update ever. Anything built in the last 10 years just isn't there.
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Old 14th September 2020, 10:48 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
I admit my complaint is difficult to parse because I'm split on the issue myself.
Which is fair and I'm glad you recognize it.

Quote:
First, my smartphone at seven years old is becoming obsolete, yet I'm getting razzed for complaining about it. I want to ask you people, what other $600-plus things do you have in your home that are considered obsolete and in need of a replacement after only seven years? (I chose $600 because that's about the price of a new phone, and I realize I can get a used one for much less money. ) Your fancy amplifier? Your dining room suite? TV set? Refrigerator? Dishwasher? Laundry washer and dryer? Bed and mattress? The fancy BBQ on your deck?
I got rid of an old amp because it didn't support any of the modern surround sound standards. It was way more than 7 years old, but then that tech has been developing more slowly. I didn't need to replace it, HK made good stuff back then, but I wanted to play in those fields. I feel like that is about the same as your phone. It still works, but doesn't let you do "cool new thing".

And I think it is important to remember that your $600 phone could be replaced by a $100 phone that is better in every measurable way. I don't think that applies to the rest of the things you mention.
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Old 14th September 2020, 06:36 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
You can, provided you don't need the upgrades.

As I mentioned up thread, I've had a notification from Norton that they will soon stop supporting the version of Android which is the most recent one that still supports my tablet. They continually upgrade to cope with new viruses, but those updates will no longer be downloaded. So my tablet will no longer be protected from malware.

No. That is incorrect. It just won't be protected from whatever Norton may have been protecting it from in later updates.

Android devices in general are not as vulnerable to malware as, say PCs. Most vulnerabilities come from user actions, and even Norton won't necessarily be a great help in preventing that.

But if you feel the need for a third-party anti-malware app for your device then Norton is certainly not your only alternative. It is not, arguably, even the best.
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Old 14th September 2020, 07:39 PM   #48
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Just got another notice of an Adobe Flash Update. But this one came with a popup that says End-of-Life is December 2020. I visit a few sites that use it, but as far as I know I don't need it for any of my laptop apps. I didn't read the info box because it froze when I clicked on it.

Often I can tell when it's doing its download because my computer freezes up for no apparent reason. I still leave that option on, but I don't let it install until I'm ready to tell it to. I'd also think the existing cookie would be able to tell it I don't want the optional PC-freezing McAfee update, but I have to remember to opt out every time.

I wonder what the apps or sites that use Flash will have to migrate to, and if they're just finding out about the deprecation?
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Old 15th September 2020, 04:48 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by grmcdorman View Post
That shouldn't happen, there may have been something else going on. I have never seen that on any of the phones I have had.
Well it can happen - earlier versions of Android were rather untidy when it came to configurations, leaving behind dross when uninstalling apps, lots of memory leaks that could add up and so on. (Especially with people who never switch their phones off.) Then you had all the extra stuff manufacturers shoved in - often because of lack of features in the basic android OS and not just for the sake of it. And these weren't necessarily very well written extensions and since they would be hooked into the core system of the phone they often used quick and dirty hacks which all added up to provide another path for "performance" problems. Add in the much lower cost of many Android handsets and the cutting of corners to get the price lower and you had phones with barely enough RAM to run apps and the OS on day one, never mind when apps were updated with more and more features.

Apple was the company that did for certain and quite deliberately reduce the performance of your phone depending on the health of your phone's battery and didn't tell you that was what it was doing So many Apple phone owners who complained about phones deliberately getting slower as they aged were often right.

Thankfully for about the last 3 years or so companies have got much better and even Apple is now honest and shows you when they are reducing your phone's performance.
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Old 15th September 2020, 04:51 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Just got another notice of an Adobe Flash Update. But this one came with a popup that says End-of-Life is December 2020. I visit a few sites that use it, but as far as I know I don't need it for any of my laptop apps. I didn't read the info box because it froze when I clicked on it.

Often I can tell when it's doing its download because my computer freezes up for no apparent reason. I still leave that option on, but I don't let it install until I'm ready to tell it to. I'd also think the existing cookie would be able to tell it I don't want the optional PC-freezing McAfee update, but I have to remember to opt out every time.

I wonder what the apps or sites that use Flash will have to migrate to, and if they're just finding out about the deprecation?
Flash has been dying on all platforms, and invites to its funeral and its tombstone has been ready for some time, no one can say they have been taken by surprise about it going the way of the Dodo.
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Old 15th September 2020, 05:16 AM   #51
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To borrow a line I've borrowed before "Flash isn't dead. It's always smelled like that."
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Old 15th September 2020, 06:24 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
...
Apple was the company that did for certain and quite deliberately reduce the performance of your phone depending on the health of your phone's battery and didn't tell you that was what it was doing So many Apple phone owners who complained about phones deliberately getting slower as they aged were often right.

Thankfully for about the last 3 years or so companies have got much better and even Apple is now honest and shows you when they are reducing your phone's performance.
I've been using my old iPhone 4GS strictly for wi-fi connection to radio stations in the back yard. I found my battery was draining rapidly, and found a battery replacement kit from iFixit for about $17 that included the battery, tools and instructions. Amazing deal, and very simple to do. Works a lot better now!

Sometimes I think I'd like to go back to using it for phone service because it's about half the size and weight of my newest Samsung Galaxy A51 (with case).
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Old 15th September 2020, 06:50 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Just got another notice of an Adobe Flash Update. But this one came with a popup that says End-of-Life is December 2020. I visit a few sites that use it, but as far as I know I don't need it for any of my laptop apps. I didn't read the info box because it froze when I clicked on it.

They're just reminding people. Adobe made the announcement about that more than three years ago.

Quote:
Often I can tell when it's doing its download because my computer freezes up for no apparent reason. I still leave that option on, but I don't let it install until I'm ready to tell it to. I'd also think the existing cookie would be able to tell it I don't want the optional PC-freezing McAfee update, but I have to remember to opt out every time.

I wonder what the apps or sites that use Flash will have to migrate to, and if they're just finding out about the deprecation?

If they're just finding out then they need to be in a different business. It shouldn't come as a surprise.

Apple quit supporting Flash on any of their devices a decade ago. Chrome and Firefox have been steadily reducing any support for years. From requiring explicit permission for a Flash served object to play to refusing to play them at all.

Sites out there that require Flash probably haven't been maintained by anyone for a long time.
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:07 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Bitdefender for Android does very well in tests. It does require Android 5 so not sure if that would have been available for your device via updates.
I started using my first smartphone last year in the form of an old Samsung. And I'm writing this on an older Lenovo tablet. Both of those devices have Bitdefender installed. No problems at all with either, although I admit to knowing next to nothing about this stuff.
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Old 16th September 2020, 01:53 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Which is fair and I'm glad you recognize it.

I got rid of an old amp because it didn't support any of the modern surround sound standards. It was way more than 7 years old, but then that tech has been developing more slowly. I didn't need to replace it, HK made good stuff back then, but I wanted to play in those fields. I feel like that is about the same as your phone. It still works, but doesn't let you do "cool new thing".

And I think it is important to remember that your $600 phone could be replaced by a $100 phone that is better in every measurable way. I don't think that applies to the rest of the things you mention.
For only $100? I'm assuming you're talking used, not new. And better how? Support for 5G, perhaps. Likely a faster processor and more RAM, which are needed to run the more bloated up-to-date Android. My current smartphone makes and receives telephone calls and SMS text messages, takes pictures at 4128x3096 resolution, can see both GPS and GLONASS satellites, and has more sensors than you can shake a stick at.

Again, it's an expensive device that some consider obsolete because it's seven years old! So is my home server: it's nowhere near obsolete, and will likely continue doing its job for another seven years.

I probably should try updating it to the latest Lineage OS. At the very least it would be an interesting little project.
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Old 16th September 2020, 02:17 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
For only $100? I'm assuming you're talking used, not new. And better how? Support for 5G, perhaps. Likely a faster processor and more RAM, which are needed to run the more bloated up-to-date Android. My current smartphone makes and receives telephone calls and SMS text messages, takes pictures at 4128x3096 resolution, can see both GPS and GLONASS satellites, and has more sensors than you can shake a stick at.

Again, it's an expensive device that some consider obsolete because it's seven years old! So is my home server: it's nowhere near obsolete, and will likely continue doing its job for another seven years.

I probably should try updating it to the latest Lineage OS. At the very least it would be an interesting little project.
You're current issue is an inability to run the latest software. Any current phone, even the cheaper ones, will run the current software. They will also make calls and such. That is "better" for your use case.

You may think the current software is bloated, but it is the software you wish to run.
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Old 16th September 2020, 03:05 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
The latest apple OS works on my wife's iPhone 7 as well as my iPod touch. So - 4-5 years or so.
ios14 launched today, and can be installed on everything back to the iPhone 6, which launched in 2014. So that's exactly 6 years of support. I wouldn't be surprised if ios15 next year only went as far back as the iPhone 7, but it's certainly feasible it'll still be viable on the 6.

I think it's not just that they want people to buy new products (although they certainly do), but the changing technology allows them to do more. If you've got more processing power and more memory, etc., then your OS can use more processing power and more memory, etc.. And there comes a point where supporting old devices means compromising the abilities of new devices which, even with the best will in the world, wouldn't be a good move for a tech company.
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Old 16th September 2020, 03:06 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
For only $100? I'm assuming you're talking used, not new. And better how? Support for 5G, perhaps. Likely a faster processor and more RAM, which are needed to run the more bloated up-to-date Android. My current smartphone makes and receives telephone calls and SMS text messages, takes pictures at 4128x3096 resolution, can see both GPS and GLONASS satellites, and has more sensors than you can shake a stick at.

Again, it's an expensive device that some consider obsolete because it's seven years old! So is my home server: it's nowhere near obsolete, and will likely continue doing its job for another seven years.

I probably should try updating it to the latest Lineage OS. At the very least it would be an interesting little project.
You might want to stick to talking about things you know something about. Google has gone to significant effort to keep the size of Android manageable while upgrading its functionality. Android's size is so manageable, in fact, that you can likely run version 10 (I'd recommend sticking with 9 to be on the safe side in terms of stability) on your 7-year-old device.

Also, FWIW, exactly two people in this thread have used the word "obsolete" with regard to your phone: You and theprestige. You've used it quite liberally (perhaps to [mis]characterize the arguments of others) and theprestige used it once and only said that your phone is "becoming" obsolete. Since there will almost certainly be a time when a version of Android requires a minimum of 4GB RAM, your phone will indeed become obsolete in terms of compatibility with the latest operating systems but we're not there yet.

Now, maybe Samsung and other manufacturers should be supporting their phones with OS updates longer. We'd all love for the market to stabilize. I would note, however, that you bought the Galaxy S4 in 2013. Not only have you gotten 7 years of use out of a portable electronics product (which is a lot) but there's really no good excuse for not knowing what was up in the smartphone world when you bought it. You were buying the fourth iteration of Galaxy S phones, the first of which had only been released 3 years before.
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Old 16th September 2020, 04:21 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
You're current issue is an inability to run the latest software. Any current phone, even the cheaper ones, will run the current software. They will also make calls and such. That is "better" for your use case.

You may think the current software is bloated, but it is the software you wish to run.

If someone were to be concerned about software bloat then buying a Samsung phone would have been a remarkably inappropriate choice. Although less so now, perhaps, they are still pretty well known for loading lots of extras on their devices that users may or may not want. And can't get rid of if they don't.

I expect that you (Dr. Keith) know most of this, but it does require a bit of familiarity with the Android smartphone market.

Even (perhaps especially) back as far as the S4 Samsung, among all of the many phone manufacturers, was notorious for stuffing unneeded and often unwanted apps on their phones. Apps which often could not be removed without rooting the phone and installing third-party file management apps that could delete system files. The base model shipped with 16GB and, depending on the provider, you'd be lucky if 9GB of that was available to you when you took it out of the box.

That's software bloat, and it didn't all come from the Android 5 the phone shipped with. Samsung gifted their customers with a large fraction of it.
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Old 16th September 2020, 04:49 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
For only $100? I'm assuming you're talking used, not new. And better how? Support for 5G, perhaps. Likely a faster processor and more RAM, which are needed to run the more bloated up-to-date Android. My current smartphone makes and receives telephone calls and SMS text messages, takes pictures at 4128x3096 resolution, can see both GPS and GLONASS satellites, and has more sensors than you can shake a stick at.

Again, it's an expensive device that some consider obsolete because it's seven years old! So is my home server: it's nowhere near obsolete, and will likely continue doing its job for another seven years.

You might be surprised what is out there.

Consider the Motorola Moto G6. When it first shipped two years ago it was $250. Now you can find them, unlocked, for $150 (yeah, I know, not $100) with 4GB of RAM and 32 GB of storage. All day long. Sometimes you can get the 64GB model at that price. Better CPU. Screen resolution far better than the S4. Cameras comparable to, if not better than the S4. Dual SIM (or SIM/microSD up to 128GB, which is twice what the S4 could manage.)

There is literally no spec for the S4 which it can't exceed. Usually by quite a bit. Often by a factor of 2. For $150. Less, mebbe, if you shop around and/or are willing to settle for the 32GB version.

Quote:
I probably should try updating it to the latest Lineage OS. At the very least it would be an interesting little project.

Yeah. About that.

You got me interested, so I took some time looking around XDA, and it seems that being the Canadian version of the phone 'may' (and I reiterate 'may') throw a Spaniard in the works. There appear to be a number of variables, depending on factors such as which Canadian provider you got the phone from, but it is nowhere nearly as straightforward as if it were a U.S. model, or even one from some other sources. Some of the people reported success to varying degrees with different ROMs, but others also reported a number of issues.

Also, there are definite signs that the latest Lineage OS (17) for the S4, even the U.S. model, is not quite ready for prime time anyway. Again, were it me, I'd do the Lineage 16, and wait for 17 to get a bit more stable.

I'd be willing to go for it if it were my phone, but not if it were my only phone.
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Old 16th September 2020, 05:21 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
You might be surprised what is out there.

Consider the Motorola Moto G6. When it first shipped two years ago it was $250. Now you can find them, unlocked, for $150 (yeah, I know, not $100) with 4GB of RAM and 32 GB of storage. All day long. Sometimes you can get the 64GB model at that price. Better CPU. Screen resolution far better than the S4. Cameras comparable to, if not better than the S4. Dual SIM (or SIM/microSD up to 128GB, which is twice what the S4 could manage.)

There is literally no spec for the S4 which it can't exceed. Usually by quite a bit. Often by a factor of 2. For $150. Less, mebbe, if you shop around and/or are willing to settle for the 32GB version.
I got my G7 for under $200 early this year. There are a ton of options in the low price range these days and you're not sacrificing much unless you're a big phone gamer or obsessed with having the absolute best camera.

I will note that there's one feature missing from the [US] versions of most, if not all, of Motorola's mid-range phones: NFC. It's kind of a bummer because I'd gotten used to paying with a previous phone, but it's not like I'd cut up my cards.
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Old 17th September 2020, 02:42 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
ios14 launched today, and can be installed on everything back to the iPhone 6, which launched in 2014. So that's exactly 6 years of support. I wouldn't be surprised if ios15 next year only went as far back as the iPhone 7, but it's certainly feasible it'll still be viable on the 6.



I think it's not just that they want people to buy new products (although they certainly do), but the changing technology allows them to do more. If you've got more processing power and more memory, etc., then your OS can use more processing power and more memory, etc.. And there comes a point where supporting old devices means compromising the abilities of new devices which, even with the best will in the world, wouldn't be a good move for a tech company.
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Old 17th September 2020, 02:43 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
And I think it is important to remember that your $600 phone could be replaced by a $100 phone that is better in every measurable way. I don't think that applies to the rest of the things you mention.
TVs maybe, I think the acceleration of change in TV standards may be storing up problems for the future, but thechanges in the underlying technology have reduced prices to an incredible degree.
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Old 17th September 2020, 06:28 AM   #64
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
6S.
You're right. The website I checked with yesterday lied to me.

So that's 5 years, then. Although, of course, you can still use older iPhones, just not with the new operating system.
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Old 17th September 2020, 06:42 AM   #65
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My 6 is blocked on 12.4.8 which is fine except, as discussed above, for running certain new apps. Which is a pity. My 6S Plus is running iOS 14 happily enough since this morning, though.
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Old 17th September 2020, 07:58 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I expect that you (Dr. Keith) know most of this, but it does require a bit of familiarity with the Android smartphone market.
Nah, I'm an iPhone user. I had to have a non-iPhone for a few weeks once and I was so confused it was pathetic. The word embarrassing is not enough to capture my complete and utter shame at how hard it was for me to operate this phone. But, I did note that the very cheap phone I had was still quite capable. Really, amazingly capable for the price. If I had needed to rely on it I'm sure I could have gotten used to the interface and it would have done everything I needed it to do at a much cheaper price than my iPhone.

I know I pay extra to maintain an interface that I am comfortable with. But I also know there is fierce competition in the non-iPhone market and there are very capable phones to be had for very reasonable prices. That makes me happy even if I am not a part of that market. I remember tinkering with discarded stereo equipment as a kid an I get the feeling there are lots of kids out there right now learning about the world around them through discarded mobile tech. That is exciting to me, and likely completely off topic.
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Old 17th September 2020, 10:56 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Nah, I'm an iPhone user. I had to have a non-iPhone for a few weeks once and I was so confused it was pathetic. The word embarrassing is not enough to capture my complete and utter shame at how hard it was for me to operate this phone.
There’s no reason at all to feel that way. IOS and Android are very different in the ways the user interacts with anything more complicated than opening an app. I was given an iPad recently and it took a while to figure things out that I could do easily on an Android device (I’ve been on Android almost exclusively for a decade). I’m still slowly learning more. If you’d been committed to a permanent change, you’d probably have had less trouble.
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Old 17th September 2020, 11:00 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
There’s no reason at all to feel that way. IOS and Android are very different in the ways the user interacts with anything more complicated than opening an app. I was given an iPad recently and it took a while to figure things out that I could do easily on an Android device (I’ve been on Android almost exclusively for a decade). I’m still slowly learning more. If you’d been committed to a permanent change, you’d probably have had less trouble.
It was one of those aha moments where I was once again reminded that I am not as technologically literate as I used to be.

As you say, if it were a permanent change I would have thrown myself more into it.
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Old 17th September 2020, 11:08 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
It was one of those aha moments where I was once again reminded that I am not as technologically literate as I used to be.

As you say, if it were a permanent change I would have thrown myself more into it.
On the other hand, why would you want to learn a new way of interacting with what is essentially a convenience device? Your thumbs know where to go to send that message, take that photo, etc and that muscle memory is worth a lot. I swapped to an iPhone for a while as my then phone experienced an unscheduled energy transfer with a gravel road so I bought a used s6 to try. Nice but when the battery started losing longevity I went back to android.
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Old 17th September 2020, 11:21 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
On the other hand, why would you want to learn a new way of interacting with what is essentially a convenience device?
Because I was clinging to an image of myself as someone who was well versed in many technologies and could easily navigate in any consumer interface. Such images are hard to let go of.
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Old 17th September 2020, 01:06 PM   #71
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I did the upgrade on my old iPhone 6GS (yes, I did a full backup first!). Considering I do so little with it, I haven't noticed a superficial difference. But I do see that almost all the apps have the little cloud icon next to them - indicating that a new download needs to be made. The few I need are still active so I doubt I'll bother.

I do see that every app I've made is "No longer available" even though the icons remain. But I knew that would happen when I left the Developer Program. (You can't have your apps for sale on the store unless you're an active subscribing Member. You can't even re-download them if you've had them before. You can't even recompile them for your own use from your own computer!)
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Old 17th September 2020, 04:09 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I did the upgrade on my old iPhone 6GS (yes, I did a full backup first!). Considering I do so little with it, I haven't noticed a superficial difference. But I do see that almost all the apps have the little cloud icon next to them - indicating that a new download needs to be made. The few I need are still active so I doubt I'll bother.

I do see that every app I've made is "No longer available" even though the icons remain. But I knew that would happen when I left the Developer Program. (You can't have your apps for sale on the store unless you're an active subscribing Member. You can't even re-download them if you've had them before. You can't even recompile them for your own use from your own computer!)

They don't call it "a walled garden" for nothin'.
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Old 18th September 2020, 10:17 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Because I was clinging to an image of myself as someone who was well versed in many technologies and could easily navigate in any consumer interface. Such images are hard to let go of.

This is key to what Apple has done so well, made it inconvenient to move from Apple to another provider of hardware and software.
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Old 18th September 2020, 10:17 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
They don't call it "a walled garden" for nothin'.

Yeah, it’s 30%.
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