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Tags police issues , Seattle issues , Seattle politics

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Old 21st September 2020, 08:36 AM   #161
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There's an aphorism among second-amendment nerds that the cops will show up in ten minutes, and you have ten seconds.
Sure, but in my example, I had gone to the police station with a bundle of evidence to make a complaint and was met with a "what do you want us to do about it" type attitude. A cop honestly asked me what crime he thinks was committed by a road rager that came to dead stop in front of me on a 70mph interstate and tried to run me into the shoulder.

I'm not talking about needing a cop in an emergency, I'm talking about cops actually doing there job to take complaints seriously and put forth an effort to solve crimes that people in the community think are serious. Another common example is how many cops take domestic and sexual violence claims from women victims as non-serious and don't even bother doing basic police work.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
One of the most interesting developments of the civil rights era was the Black Panthers promoting the exercise of second amendment rights for black Americans - especially open carry.

Anyway, my prediction is that communities that successfully abolish the police will immediately re-invent police. And, because they are explicitly rejecting hundreds of years of conventional wisdom and baked-in tradition, their version of policing will be very ugly for some time, until they figure out all the pitfalls for themselves from first principles.
Sure, police should actually serve a vital role in the community. The current system we have now is so far from fulfilling that need in a responsible and accountable way that it should be dismantled entirely and started anew.
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Old 21st September 2020, 09:01 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Anyway, my prediction is that communities that successfully abolish the police will immediately re-invent police. And, because they are explicitly rejecting hundreds of years of conventional wisdom and baked-in tradition, their version of policing will be very ugly for some time, until they figure out all the pitfalls for themselves from first principles.


Even assuming for sake of argument that less police means more crime, there is a real question as to if a rise in crime is worse than having a police force act like an occupying power.

I'd rather have a higher chance of being a victim of a crime if in exchange I do not have to worry about the reality and fear of being harassed by police against whom I have no real recourse.
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Old 21st September 2020, 09:34 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The current system we have now is so far from fulfilling that need in a responsible and accountable way that it should be dismantled entirely and started anew.
That's one way to find out if the current system really is so far from fulfilling that need.
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Old 21st September 2020, 09:35 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Even assuming for sake of argument that less police means more crime, there is a real question as to if a rise in crime is worse than having a police force act like an occupying power.

I'd rather have a higher chance of being a victim of a crime if in exchange I do not have to worry about the reality and fear of being harassed by police against whom I have no real recourse.
I'm actually predicting you'll be harassed by the community posse that replaces the police, and against whom you will also have no real recourse.
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Old 21st September 2020, 01:23 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm actually predicting you'll be harassed by the community posse that replaces the police, and against whom you will also have no real recourse.
Posse?

I guess the argument that a specific stupid plan to replace police would be stupid is pretty airtight for what it is worth...
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Old 21st September 2020, 01:58 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Posse?

I guess the argument that a specific stupid plan to replace police would be stupid is pretty airtight for what it is worth...
I couldn't think of a better term for a community-organized police force along libertarian lines.

Whatever you call it, my prediction is that:
- once law enforcement is removed from a community, law and order will promptly go to hell; and that
- once law and order goes to hell, (some) members of the community will band together to bring it back; and that
- the band of community members trying to establish law and order in the absence of institutionalized police will do a terrible job of it, at first and for a while.
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Old 21st September 2020, 02:07 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I couldn't think of a better term for a community-organized police force along libertarian lines.

Whatever you call it, my prediction is that:
- once law enforcement is removed from a community, law and order will promptly go to hell; and that
- once law and order goes to hell, (some) members of the community will band together to bring it back; and that
- the band of community members trying to establish law and order in the absence of institutionalized police will do a terrible job of it, at first and for a while.
No.
What happens is that anyone who is the least bit able to escape the community as law and order goes to hell does so, and those who cannot- lacking even the means to escape- become permanently victimized by the criminal class or choose to join it as a method of bringing a slight improvement to their status.

Elimination of the police does not help those whom its proponents claim to be speaking for.
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Old 21st September 2020, 02:27 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
If they aren't doing their jobs, all the more reason to take the money and use it elsewhere.

Cops not being around when you need them isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of the status quo.
That's not exactly what is going on though. The status quo last year was the police being needed, and the police being wanted, and the police being around when you need them.

This year, the police are still needed, but suddenly they're not wanted, and the change in the numbers shows the results. To my mind it is an endorsement of last year's status quo. This year's numbers are what happens when you need the police, but you make it abundantly clear that you don't want the police.

I wonder how much of the spike in un-policed crime is localized to communities that were very explicit about not wanting police in their communities.
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Old 21st September 2020, 03:32 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Sure, but in my example, I had gone to the police station with a bundle of evidence to make a complaint and was met with a "what do you want us to do about it" type attitude. A cop honestly asked me what crime he thinks was committed by a road rager that came to dead stop in front of me on a 70mph interstate and tried to run me into the shoulder.

I'm not talking about needing a cop in an emergency, I'm talking about cops actually doing there job to take complaints seriously and put forth an effort to solve crimes that people in the community think are serious. Another common example is how many cops take domestic and sexual violence claims from women victims as non-serious and don't even bother doing basic police work.

That's my experience as well. Very good at harassing teenagers looking for weed. No problem having half the force come out and spend an hour tearing apart your car. Call them for a burglary at your house? They can't be arsed to even check if the neighbors saw anything. Someone I know were literally told "well we have a rape case we are working on so we don't really have the time right now".

Small precinct, but they still seem to find the budget for brand new cars and trucks every few years. Apparently not so much to have the manpower for more than one case at a time.

When I see calls for abolish the police, I do take it as nonsense. But reorganizing their budget so they are more effective seems straight forward. If you've got the budget for new toys, unlimited overtime and the wonderful perks in regards to benefits, you should have the ability to actually solve crime as well. Not just deter a portion of it with your presence.
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Old 21st September 2020, 05:23 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's not exactly what is going on though. The status quo last year was the police being needed, and the police being wanted, and the police being around when you need them.

This year, the police are still needed, but suddenly they're not wanted, and the change in the numbers shows the results. To my mind it is an endorsement of last year's status quo. This year's numbers are what happens when you need the police, but you make it abundantly clear that you don't want the police.

I wonder how much of the spike in un-policed crime is localized to communities that were very explicit about not wanting police in their communities.
This "spike" is in comparison to last year I presume. Crime is still at record lows. Lower than it was in the last few decades. I minor increase after over a decade of dropping crime numbers isn't a trend or worrying spike.

I think it's entirely speculative that this small bump has anything to do with anti police animus. Strikes me that the pandemic and the corresponding economic free fall is placing way more pressure on these communities than people chanting ACAB at pigs.
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Old 21st September 2020, 05:37 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
This "spike" is in comparison to last year I presume. Crime is still at record lows. Lower than it was in the last few decades. I minor increase after over a decade of dropping crime numbers isn't a trend or worrying spike.

I think it's entirely speculative that this small bump has anything to do with anti police animus. Strikes me that the pandemic and the corresponding economic free fall is placing way more pressure on these communities than people chanting ACAB at pigs.
In which case, this small bump doesn't actually tell us anything about whether cops are doing their jobs.
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Old 22nd September 2020, 03:02 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm actually predicting you'll be harassed by the community posse that replaces the police, and against whom you will also have no real recourse.
So no change then.
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Old 22nd September 2020, 04:00 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
In which case, this small bump doesn't actually tell us anything about whether cops are doing their jobs.
Cops doing their jobs and responding to complaints is a separate issue to raw crime numbers.
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Old 22nd September 2020, 05:25 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Posse?

I guess the argument that a specific stupid plan to replace police would be stupid is pretty airtight for what it is worth...
Well it's either criminal gangs and mafia families taking over then. Those are the people who are going to try to impose their will on society, if they aren't already doing so.
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Old 22nd September 2020, 08:28 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So no change then.
Well, they might start harassing white people, and we can’t have that.

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Old 22nd September 2020, 08:47 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Well it's either criminal gangs and mafia families taking over then. Those are the people who are going to try to impose their will on society, if they aren't already doing so.
Iím sure the right wing militias that have already been de facto deputized by the police will protect us.
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Old 22nd September 2020, 09:11 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Well it's either criminal gangs and mafia families taking over then. Those are the people who are going to try to impose their will on society, if they aren't already doing so.
When cops act like criminal gangs, well, whatever. Of course, this isn't really the choice.

The vast majority of communities get along just fine with little or no police presence. Which is what this is about: presence. Armed cops as we know them should be "break glass in case of emergency" entities brought into the situation only when absolutely necessary.

There is no reason the public facing people should be armed or have power of arrest. They can be there to render aid, to deescalate situations, gather evidence (body cams, etc.), and to give lawful orders if necessary. If they get crossed, then the armed guys can come out.

Detectives should be separate from the police. Same with the forensic examiners and the prosecutors. The more independent these bodies are the more likely they act as a check on one another.

This stuff can be rethought.
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Old Today, 04:43 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Well it's either criminal gangs and mafia families taking over then. Those are the people who are going to try to impose their will on society, if they aren't already doing so.
The police, from my point of view, usually *are* the criminal gang that took over. Lots of time to take bribes, plant evidence, rob people using "asset forfeiture" and beat the crap out of random young men walking down the street for being a "mutt" or a "******".

Rape victim? You sure she's not just a whore? Whatever - let's just say she is and laugh at her. Witness to a gang shooting? Well, thanks for talking with us, good luck defending yourself and your loved ones against the gang we're probably taking bribes from. And be sure to pull your gun and fire wildly at the drop of a hat - better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6, especially when the 12 are outside your jurisdiction where we treat them kindly and work hard to keep "those people" off of juries.
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Old Today, 04:50 AM   #179
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A minor budget reduction to a massive police force and people describe it like Seattle gonna turn into Mogadishu.

Bootlicker brain at work
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