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Old 7th June 2018, 09:50 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
My knowledge of handguns is limited and I somehow suspect that there are very few instances where a slight delay would be critical except, perhaps, in preventing accidental and over-hasty shootings. But anyway, I do have a rifle with a safety, and that safety is a simple little sideways button in the trigger guard. If you pick up the gun to shoot it you can disengage the safety nearly instantly with your thumb. It locks the trigger itself. It does require that you actually intend to disengage it, and if you forget it takes very little time to disengage it even after a failure to fire. If it were on a pistol, I think it almost certain that it could be disengaged easily in the time it takes to draw the gun and aim it. It seems like a very simple device that could be operated very quickly with very little training and habit formation.

Although I'm loath to see guns toted and hastily fired in general, I can see the reasoning behind a Law enforcement officer not wanting an empty chamber. In some guns at least, that would require a fairly distinct cocking operation which is not compatible with drawing the gun and firing it in a smooth motion. But I think a well placed safety would be.
So a Glock, like all DA only pistols has a relatively long and heavy trigger pull. Have you ever shot a double action revolver? Its comparative. Which BTW are what police carried for most of the 20th century and very few revolvers have a manual safety. Police carrying such a pistol rather than something like a Colt 1911 accomplishes a couple of things. When drawing in an emergency situation they cannot forget to take the safety off. That second or two of pulling the trigger, nothing happening, realizing nothing happened, taking the safety off and firing could very easily be life or death for a cop. And it also helps prevent AD's in high stress situations. Of course rule #1 of gun safety is don't put your finger on the trigger until ready to fire. But cops like everyone else are just human beings and prone to error. Its better to have a long trigger pull than a short one with a manual safety to help prevent that (and I'll even agree with PT that BOTH would be even better, but it doesn't accomplish goal #1). In essence so many police forces have gone with Glocks, or similar pistols, because they are a sort of best of both worlds. They're simple like a revolver, draw pull the trigger, and it goes bang. But also a higher capacity and quicker reloads than a revolver.

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Old 7th June 2018, 10:51 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Because you want the gun to go off when the trigger is pulled.

I really don't understand your angle here. Dunk man dropped firearm. Drunk man pulled trigger while picking firearm up (I suspect at this point he's broken at least one vital rule of firearm safety) firearm discharged.
Evidence he was drunk? Look even if he killed someone I get it no one cares because this is what should happen.
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Old 7th June 2018, 10:54 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
If your whole point is that every firearm should have a manual safety, then I agree entirely.

If that is not your point, then could you please spell it out?
It should have safeties that make this form of accidental discharge less likely. If they are grip safeties or manual safeties that can be determined by others. But the trigger safety seems very poorly suited to this form of carry.

And that gun culture will rarely if ever place any blame on manufacturers, even in situations that we hold manufacturers of any other product liable for.
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Old 7th June 2018, 10:58 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
So a Glock, like all DA only pistols has a relatively long and heavy trigger pull. Have you ever shot a double action revolver? Its comparative. Which BTW are what police carried for most of the 20th century and very few revolvers have a manual safety. Police carrying such a pistol rather than something like a Colt 1911 accomplishes a couple of things. When drawing in an emergency situation they cannot forget to take the safety off. That second or two of pulling the trigger, nothing happening, realizing nothing happened, taking the safety off and firing could very easily be life or death for a cop. And it also helps prevent AD's in high stress situations. Of course rule #1 of gun safety is don't put your finger on the trigger until ready to fire. But cops like everyone else are just human beings and prone to error. Its better to have a long trigger pull than a short one with a manual safety to help prevent that (and I'll even agree with PT that BOTH would be even better, but it doesn't accomplish goal #1). In essence so many police forces have gone with Glocks, or similar pistols, because they are a sort of best of both worlds. They're simple like a revolver, draw pull the trigger, and it goes bang. But also a higher capacity and quicker reloads than a revolver.
Which means they are fine with their officers shooting people in situations like this.

Here is another cop shooting(this time only himself) trying to carry such a gun.

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I AGREE


But these kind of things are just minor and not something to ruin someones life over apparently.
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Old 7th June 2018, 11:25 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It should have safeties that make this form of accidental discharge less likely. If they are grip safeties or manual safeties that can be determined by others. But the trigger safety seems very poorly suited to this form of carry.

And that gun culture will rarely if ever place any blame on manufacturers, even in situations that we hold manufacturers of any other product liable for.
Bizarre that you think the manufacturer should be held liable in this sort of case. The police agency made a contract for a pistol without a manual safety. Its not as if they were deceived, or left without an option because of a conspiracy between manufacturers. If anything a lawsuit would be more rational against the police agency.
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Old 7th June 2018, 11:30 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Which means they are fine with their officers shooting people in situations like this.

Here is another cop shooting(this time only himself) trying to carry such a gun.

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I AGREE


But these kind of things are just minor and not something to ruin someones life over apparently.
In that instance he has no one to blame but himself. For one thing that looks like an off-duty conceal carry pistol. Which in most jurisdictions cops can carry whatever they like. All he needed to do was not have his finger in the trigger guard when re-holstering. Oh and not brandish his weapon to show it off would be a good idea too.
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Old 7th June 2018, 12:27 PM   #127
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Thread got ponderingturtled.
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Old 7th June 2018, 01:24 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Bizarre that you think the manufacturer should be held liable in this sort of case. The police agency made a contract for a pistol without a manual safety. Its not as if they were deceived, or left without an option because of a conspiracy between manufacturers. If anything a lawsuit would be more rational against the police agency.
Did they or did they choose one without that from a list of available pistols?

Oh the agency is certainly liable as well, but why not the manufacturer? Why should guns not be held to the same kinds of standards that all other goods are?
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Old 7th June 2018, 01:27 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
In that instance he has no one to blame but himself. For one thing that looks like an off-duty conceal carry pistol. Which in most jurisdictions cops can carry whatever they like. All he needed to do was not have his finger in the trigger guard when re-holstering. Oh and not brandish his weapon to show it off would be a good idea too.
Why do you think he had his finger in the trigger guard? Those catch on clothing easily enough and go off even when the operator does everything right. And of course adjusting things on your body is something you would never do to move around pressure points when the get painful.

We are getting at the issue of it needs to be able to be around people.
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Old 7th June 2018, 01:36 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Did they or did they choose one without that from a list of available pistols?

Oh the agency is certainly liable as well, but why not the manufacturer? Why should guns not be held to the same kinds of standards that all other goods are?
Because the Congress has specifically exempted firearms from such standards and investigations.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/norma...b_3174972.html
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...-t-be-recalled
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Old 7th June 2018, 01:45 PM   #131
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Standard factory Glock trigger pull is 5-7 pounds and fairly short as far as I know.
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Old 7th June 2018, 01:57 PM   #132
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Heavy trigger pulls are safer, I suppose. Often a child can't manage to pull a heavy trigger.

On the other hand, heavy and poor triggers often result in vary bad accuracy, particularly when firing the pistol rapidly, as police officers sometimes do.

IIRC New York has (or had) Glock make their issued pistols with either an 8 pound or 12 pound trigger pull, for different police units.

To me, 12 pounds sounds like a lot of effort that might reduce accuracy.

8 pounds sounds like a reasonable compromise between ease of use and safety.

5 pounds sounds like "BANG"...
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Old 7th June 2018, 02:08 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Standard factory Glock trigger pull is 5-7 pounds and fairly short as far as I know.
Used to be... 5.5 lbs factory stock, with the New York trigger (cops realized it was a tad light, eh) upping that to ~eight pounds, and the NY+ going a bit higher still, IIRC.

Comp trigger groups going the other way (some quite light), but I wouldn't want that on mine, carry or not.
YMMV.

Picking up a pistol safely from above, with a proper grip, is a tough move, the trigger finger wants to fall naturally inside the guard instead of out and alongside. It shouldn't be done rashly or without thinking, like while embarressed at having just dropped the damn thing.

I've done it a few times on stages where you start with the gun on a table/desk or in a drawer (though not from the ground). It's good practice and probably why it gets included so often. ETA... I mean I've had to pick one up, I've never actually dropped a gun. Fingers crossed.

(Also had an IDPA stage that began on your back, head downrange, with three targets to hit upsidedown (watch that muzzle rise, I mean drop)... though I think that was more for grins and sheer ludicrousness. OK... it's actually useful, but still.. )
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Old 7th June 2018, 02:16 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
All about weapons rights but my opinion can be summed up in a Tony soprano quote. "**** up once lose 2 teeth" metaphorically of course. Any accident that hurts someone or in certain situations could hurt someone should be an automatic pull of a firearms license. If you require one for your job, that sucks find a new one.
Exactly.



Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Good summary.

Having done IPSC/IDPA shooting in my younger years, I would never ever feel safe carrying a cocked and locked 1911. Hell having it on my hip for a minute or two before a stage made me sweat a bit. Of course that gun had about a 1 pound trigger on it, which is less than factory. I'd much prefer to carry a Glock if I did routinely carry, rather than a cocked and locked 1911. If you accidentally take the thumb safety down it takes very little for it to fire.
I carried an Auto-Ordinance 1911 model for years and never once felt unsafe. They are designed to carry cocked and locked safely.

I am still shocked to this day that Glocks were ever produced and sold due to the breathlessly idiotic design of the "safety" lever being on top of the firing mechanism whereby the same motion unsafes the pistol. It's literally no safety at all. How it ever passed any kind of test is beyond me, especially after years of watching people with negligent discharges getting to the point of the term "Glock leg" becoming popular.



Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Lack of safety is design requirement, not design choice. Some people like their guns like that. They may end up shooting someone by mistake. They typically prefer that to gun not going off when they want. I think I would prefer no safety and empty chamber, but that's not the issue here. Issue here is you claim it's unsafe design. It's not. It's unsafe mode of carrying a gun.
It's an unsafe design, period.



Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
So a Glock, like all DA only pistols has a relatively long and heavy trigger pull. Have you ever shot a double action revolver? Its comparative. Which BTW are what police carried for most of the 20th century and very few revolvers have a manual safety. Police carrying such a pistol rather than something like a Colt 1911 accomplishes a couple of things. When drawing in an emergency situation they cannot forget to take the safety off. That second or two of pulling the trigger, nothing happening, realizing nothing happened, taking the safety off and firing could very easily be life or death for a cop. And it also helps prevent AD's in high stress situations. Of course rule #1 of gun safety is don't put your finger on the trigger until ready to fire. But cops like everyone else are just human beings and prone to error. Its better to have a long trigger pull than a short one with a manual safety to help prevent that (and I'll even agree with PT that BOTH would be even better, but it doesn't accomplish goal #1). In essence so many police forces have gone with Glocks, or similar pistols, because they are a sort of best of both worlds. They're simple like a revolver, draw pull the trigger, and it goes bang. But also a higher capacity and quicker reloads than a revolver.
This is FUD pure and simple. Any one, cop or other, who forgets to do a small thumb sweep of the safety when clearing a holster or when taking aim is simply untrained to the point of not being competent in carrying a firearm at all.
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Old 7th June 2018, 02:29 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
Picking up a pistol safely from above, with a proper grip, is a tough move, the trigger finger wants to fall naturally inside the guard instead of out and alongside. It shouldn't be done rashly or without thinking, like while embarressed at having just dropped the damn thing.
I still don't understand why this casual pick-up-from-the-floor has to include a finger touching the trigger guard. You can curl all fingers around the grip and have no possibility of an accidental discharge.

In this situation there is no good reason to have any finger touching or spanning across the trigger guard.
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Old 7th June 2018, 02:42 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
This is FUD pure and simple. Any one, cop or other, who forgets to do a small thumb sweep of the safety when clearing a holster or when taking aim is simply untrained to the point of not being competent in carrying a firearm at all.
I did it more than once on drawing. Although understand I stopped shooting competitively at around age 20. I practiced quite a lot, but the pressure of a match did something to my brain. Then again there are rookie cops out there that are barely older than that. I don't think its FUD at all. I've heard it from multiples sources as the reason given that police forces have adopted pistols without a thumb safety. What other plausible explanation is there?

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Old 7th June 2018, 02:45 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Heavy trigger pulls are safer, I suppose. Often a child can't manage to pull a heavy trigger.

On the other hand, heavy and poor triggers often result in vary bad accuracy, particularly when firing the pistol rapidly, as police officers sometimes do.

IIRC New York has (or had) Glock make their issued pistols with either an 8 pound or 12 pound trigger pull, for different police units.

To me, 12 pounds sounds like a lot of effort that might reduce accuracy.

8 pounds sounds like a reasonable compromise between ease of use and safety.

5 pounds sounds like "BANG"...
What the FBI recently adopted the Glock 19M (formerly 19X I think) has a 5.8 lbs trigger pull. The 19 has a .5" pull length, not 100% sure the 19M is the same.
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Old 7th June 2018, 02:49 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Did they or did they choose one without that from a list of available pistols?

Oh the agency is certainly liable as well, but why not the manufacturer? Why should guns not be held to the same kinds of standards that all other goods are?
I'm not sure what you mean on the first sentence. Are you asking if they ordered pistols with a thumb safety and Glock sold them pistols without one??

Why would the manufacturer be liable for something a government agency bought that works exactly as specified. The FBI extensively tested their new duty carry pistol. You can google about how rigidly they did so.
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Old 7th June 2018, 03:12 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
....
Picking up a pistol safely from above, with a proper grip, is a tough move, the trigger finger wants to fall naturally inside the guard instead of out and alongside. It shouldn't be done rashly or without thinking, like while embarressed at having just dropped the damn thing.
.....
Aw, c'mon. If it's on the floor, you don't pick it up "with a proper grip." You pick it up by the barrel and transfer it to your other hand. Maybe you put your fingers around the grip backwards and pick it up upside down before you transfer it. If he tried to pick it up from the floor in a shooter's grip that's a second act of gross negligence.
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Old 7th June 2018, 10:01 PM   #140
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To get back on topic, does anyone here think the guy wouldn't have been immediately arrested had he not been in law enforcement?
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Old 8th June 2018, 07:07 AM   #141
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Arrested? Not unless he was in violation of concealed-carry regulations. I would think most agencies would treat this as an “accident” and the fellow would certainly be civilly liable, but likely not criminally liable.

As to “why should a pistol be drop-safe?” As noted... Real life intrudes at times, but more importantly for a “Combat” pistol... Things can get ugly in close-combat situations.
As this was an FBI agent, we assume he was not carrying a weapon meant for hole-punching at the range.
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Old 8th June 2018, 03:44 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
Arrested? Not unless he was in violation of concealed-carry regulations. I would think most agencies would treat this as an “accident” and the fellow would certainly be civilly liable, but likely not criminally liable.

As to “why should a pistol be drop-safe?” As noted... Real life intrudes at times, but more importantly for a “Combat” pistol... Things can get ugly in close-combat situations.
As this was an FBI agent, we assume he was not carrying a weapon meant for hole-punching at the range.
In Denver, as it most urban jurisdictions, discharging a firearm without good cause is a crime by itself. People have been prosecuted for "accidents" while cleaning their firearms. There's no dispute that he discharged his firearm, and even injured another person. He could be arrested for that, and it would be up to him to prove to the satisfaction of a jury that it was an unavoidable accident.
https://www.omalleylawoffice.com/Fir...-Firearm.shtml
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Old 8th June 2018, 04:35 PM   #143
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Sounds like reckless endangerment to me.
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Old 11th June 2018, 03:03 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Because the Congress has specifically exempted firearms from such standards and investigations.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/norma...b_3174972.html
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...-t-be-recalled
That is why guns are not, but no one is arguing about why that should be the case. I get it gun manufacturers don't want to be held to safety standards like other industries and had the pull to get an exemption but why is that a good thing"?
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Old 11th June 2018, 03:30 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
This is FUD pure and simple. Any one, cop or other, who forgets to do a small thumb sweep of the safety when clearing a holster or when taking aim is simply untrained to the point of not being competent in carrying a firearm at all.
You have to remember exactly how incompetent we like our cops to be. The surest way not to get highered after all is to score to highly on the test. That really might be a bit much to ask of them.
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Old 11th June 2018, 03:54 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
It's an unsafe design, period.
But the mantra of gun advocates is that there is no unsafe design only unsafe practices.
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Old 11th June 2018, 04:02 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
Arrested? Not unless he was in violation of concealed-carry regulations. I would think most agencies would treat this as an “accident” and the fellow would certainly be civilly liable, but likely not criminally liable.

As to “why should a pistol be drop-safe?” As noted... Real life intrudes at times, but more importantly for a “Combat” pistol... Things can get ugly in close-combat situations.
As this was an FBI agent, we assume he was not carrying a weapon meant for hole-punching at the range.
Dropping is a negligent act, and if guns fire in a negligent act it isn't a problem for the designer. That seems to be very clear in how people view guns, so it seems strange that people are that worried about guns going off when dropped as opposed to say when holstered.
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Old 12th June 2018, 02:16 PM   #148
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https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/12/us/da...est/index.html
Quote:
The FBI agent who unintentionally shot someone while dancing in a Denver bar turned himself in to police on Tuesday and is awaiting charges.

The agent, identified as 29-year-old Chad Bishop, is being held at a Denver detention center for investigation of second degree assault, pending formal charges from the District Attorney's Office, according to Denver Police Department spokesman Jay Casillas.

An attorney for the victim told CNN affiliate KMGH that the bullet hit the victim's main artery and that he could have bled to death, if not for a person who applied a tourniquet to the victim's leg.

Authorities did not initially identify the FBI agent because he was not arrested at the time, Denver police community resource officer Marika Putnam said. Denver police said last week that the agent could face possible charges pending the results of lab testing to determine if alcohol was a factor.
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Old 12th June 2018, 03:51 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That is why guns are not, but no one is arguing about why that should be the case. I get it gun manufacturers don't want to be held to safety standards like other industries and had the pull to get an exemption but why is that a good thing"?
Because the gun crowd, heavily influenced by the NRA, sees all restrictions and regulations on firearms as infringements on the 2nd Amendment. 80 percent of Americans don't own any firearms, and a large majority support universal background checks, searchable databases for law enforcement, licensing, registration, etc., etc., but the people on the other side are single-issue voters: "Guns? For me or against me?"
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Old 13th June 2018, 06:18 AM   #150
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He has been charged with second degree assault. More charges may come if tests show that he was drunk.
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Old 13th June 2018, 06:45 AM   #151
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Second degree assault sounds odd to me. It implies, at least to me, intent. This was clearly an extremely stupid accident. Some sort of reckless endangerment would make more sense.
In any case, his FBI career is almost certainly over.
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Old 13th June 2018, 07:02 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Some sort of reckless endangerment would make more sense.
An injury actually occurred so it certainly surpassed endangerment.
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Old 13th June 2018, 07:06 AM   #153
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Laws vary state to state, but my reading of Colorado Revised Statutes Title 18 Criminal Code § 18-3-203 Assault in the second degree seems to qualify. It's a long "or" statement that includes:

(d) He recklessly causes serious bodily injury to another person by means of a deadly weapon;  or

Seems pretty clear cut to me.

https://codes.findlaw.com/co/title-1...-18-3-203.html
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Old 13th June 2018, 10:02 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Aw, c'mon. If it's on the floor, you don't pick it up "with a proper grip." You pick it up by the barrel and transfer it to your other hand. Maybe you put your fingers around the grip backwards and pick it up upside down before you transfer it. If he tried to pick it up from the floor in a shooter's grip that's a second act of gross negligence.
From the video, it doesn't look like he gave any though at all to how to pick it up. It looked like an ,"Oh ****" and a panicked grab at the gun.
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Old 13th June 2018, 11:22 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Laws vary state to state, but my reading of Colorado Revised Statutes Title 18 Criminal Code § 18-3-203 Assault in the second degree seems to qualify. It's a long "or" statement that includes:

(d) He recklessly causes serious bodily injury to another person by means of a deadly weapon;  or

Seems pretty clear cut to me.

https://codes.findlaw.com/co/title-1...-18-3-203.html
I figured it would probably be something like that, thanks for the info.
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Old 14th June 2018, 08:07 AM   #156
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Deputy accidentally fired his gun in North Carolina bowling alley. The bullet injured a kid.

Originally Posted by The Charlotte Observer
An off-duty Iredell sheriff's deputy will not face charges after accidentally shooting his gun in a bowling alley, Mooresville town officials said Wednesday.

The deputy, Craig Scannella, was at the bowling alley on May 25 with his handgun in his front pocket without a holster, according to Mooresville police.

The gun fired when Scannella reached into his pocket, officials said.

The bullet struck the ground and broke into several pieces. One of the pieces struck a 10-year-old child in the back, leaving a 2-inch wound, officials said...
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/lat...213099264.html
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Old 10th July 2018, 04:27 PM   #157
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FBI agent who mistakenly shot man during backflip in Denver bar can carry a gun again, judge rules.

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