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Tags Germany history , Russia history

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Old 12th June 2018, 01:54 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
And in how many of those wars did Russia invade Finland? You're referring to a list where at least 90% of the listed items simply do not apply.

Besides that, a war does not automatically mean the ethnic makeup of the place changed.

In quite a few. The churches were ransacked and towns vandalised quite a few times.
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Old 12th June 2018, 02:24 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
In quite a few. The churches were ransacked and towns vandalised quite a few times.
When a church is ransacked, the churchgoers magically turn Russian from Finnish?

Please stop this nonsense.
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Old 12th June 2018, 02:26 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
The same paras in that wiki article say that in Estonia 1,065 estates were expropriated and in Latvia 1,300 estates. Now with the figures there, calculate how much those 50 ha per estate is as percentage of the total land that was owned by the German nobility. Show us for once that you can do highschool math.
Bump.

If only someone on this thread had a dayjob of crunching numbers (say, an accountant) and would provide the percentage of land the Baltic nobility was allowed to keep after the land reforms of 1918-1920.
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Old 12th June 2018, 03:04 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
And in how many of those wars did Russia invade Finland? You're referring to a list where at least 90% of the listed items simply do not apply.

Besides that, a war does not automatically mean the ethnic makeup of the place changed.
You do seem to have it in for Finland.....
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Old 12th June 2018, 03:30 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You do seem to have it in for Finland.....
No I don't. I'm just countering yet another historical falsification by the OP that the Finns would have been overrun (and displaced) countless times by Slavic hordes. She's been continuously distorting Finnish history, specifically what Finland did during the Continuation War. FTR, I think Finland was fully justified in defending itself and its territorial integrity during the Winter War, that is not up to debate.
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Old 12th June 2018, 03:33 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Bump.

If only someone on this thread had a dayjob of crunching numbers (say, an accountant) and would provide the percentage of land the Baltic nobility was allowed to keep after the land reforms of 1918-1920.
From wiki:

Quote:
The reforms expropriated 1065 manors (96.6% of large landowners were affected) of which only 57 manors came from Estonian owners with the rest owned mainly by Baltic Germans along with land from the Russian state and church land. The amount of land in total nationalised came to over 2.34 million hectares of land which accounted for 58% of the total agricultural land in Estonia. Manorial industrial enterprises were also nationalised by the state and sold (this included 225 vodka factories, 344 mills, 74 sawmills, 64 stone and clay industries, 18 dairies and 7 breweries). Overall about 53,000 Estonian settlers received expropriated land with 1.2mn hectares going to the 23,000 individuals affected by the land reform (though just 3.6% of land was given back to the former owner)
So Estonia and Latvia need to recompense the Baltic Germans they expropriated land from.

One family by the 1500's had estates in 50 different locations in Courland and Livonia during different periods of time and had over 56,000 hectares of land under its control.

In practical terms, it is far too late, and realistically it ain't never gonna happen, but in theory the principal is sound.

It's politics of envy which prevent some people from acknowledging this.
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Old 12th June 2018, 03:37 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
No I don't. I'm just countering yet another historical falsification by the OP that the Finns would have been overrun (and displaced) countless times by Slavic hordes. She's been continuously distorting Finnish history, specifically what Finland did during the Continuation War. FTR, I think Finland was fully justified in defending itself and its territorial integrity during the Winter War, that is not up to debate.

Whoa! I didn't say displaced. I said overrun.

The Russians are totally different in language, culture, cuisine and church.

There is a common love of beetroot, dill, summer cottages/dachas, polkas and vodka but no, there is no displacement.
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Old 12th June 2018, 10:31 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
From wiki:



So Estonia and Latvia need to recompense the Baltic Germans they expropriated land from.

One family by the 1500's had estates in 50 different locations in Courland and Livonia during different periods of time and had over 56,000 hectares of land under its control.

In practical terms, it is far too late, and realistically it ain't never gonna happen, but in theory the principal is sound.

It's politics of envy which prevent some people from acknowledging this.
Truly we must lament the plight faced by large landowners How about recompensating the descendants of the peasants and commoners they abused?
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Old 12th June 2018, 11:17 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Truly we must lament the plight faced by large landowners How about recompensating the descendants of the peasants and commoners they abused?
I believe that was done in 1919. So that's alright then, I guess.
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Old 12th June 2018, 11:30 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
From wiki:



So Estonia and Latvia need to recompense the Baltic Germans they expropriated land from.

One family by the 1500's had estates in 50 different locations in Courland and Livonia during different periods of time and had over 56,000 hectares of land under its control.

In practical terms, it is far too late, and realistically it ain't never gonna happen, but in theory the principal is sound.

It's politics of envy which prevent some people from acknowledging this.
A "principal" is the head of a school (*). Perhaps you mean "principle"?

(*) ETA: or the main sum, in contrast to the interest due/accrued over it.

I see you're still evading the question. What percentage of their land was expropriated by the Estonian and Latvian governments in these reforms? Previously, you said "some", then "most". I want to see you calculate the actual percentage.

Or are you not really an accountant?
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Old 12th June 2018, 11:32 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Whoa! I didn't say displaced. I said overrun.

The Russians are totally different in language, culture, cuisine and church.

There is a common love of beetroot, dill, summer cottages/dachas, polkas and vodka but no, there is no displacement.
So what was the point with your claim about being overrun? And why did you post a totally irrelevant list of wars about that - most of which were not about Finland nor fought there?
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:13 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Truly we must lament the plight faced by large landowners How about recompensating the descendants of the peasants and commoners they abused?
Being a serf is not necessarily being "abused", any more than someone having to go out and earn a wage (oh, is that the time...?)
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:15 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
A "principal" is the head of a school (*). Perhaps you mean "principle"?

(*) ETA: or the main sum, in contrast to the interest due/accrued over it.

I see you're still evading the question. What percentage of their land was expropriated by the Estonian and Latvian governments in these reforms? Previously, you said "some", then "most". I want to see you calculate the actual percentage.

Or are you not really an accountant?
I don't need to do any calculations, as it is spelt out in the wiki article.

Well done, you spotted a typo!
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:17 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
So what was the point with your claim about being overrun? And why did you post a totally irrelevant list of wars about that - most of which were not about Finland nor fought there?
Finland has suffered Russian troops tramping over it and vandalising it many many times. Just because you didn't know that, doesn't make it not so.
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:19 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
I believe that was done in 1919. So that's alright then, I guess.
Was the despatch of the Romanovs good or bad?
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:22 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Being a serf is not necessarily being "abused", any more than someone having to go out and earn a wage (oh, is that the time...?)
So now you're also advocating in favour of slavery?
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:25 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I don't need to do any calculations, as it is spelt out in the wiki article.
The necessary ingredients are there, but the wiki article doesn't give the percentage. Why don't you show us that you can do at least primary school arithmetic?
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:26 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Finland has suffered Russian troops tramping over it and vandalising it many many times. Just because you didn't know that, doesn't make it not so.
Why don't you give us that list? That wiki article included lots of wars that didn't come close to Finland.
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:27 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Was the despatch of the Romanovs good or bad?
Removing the Romanovs from government was good. they had made a true mess of the county when they were in charge and simply had to go. Even though they had been in charge for some 300 years.

Now killing them was bad. But that's a civil war for you. Usually very uncivil indeed.
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:43 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Why don't you give us that list? That wiki article included lots of wars that didn't come close to Finland.
And even those that did included wars in which Sweden attacked Russia.
For most of them Finland was a sideshow.
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Old 13th June 2018, 06:25 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
Now killing them was bad. But that's a civil war for you. Usually very uncivil indeed.
There's a family photo of my 2x-great-grandmother with a glass eye and scars on her face, courtesy of the Tsar's pogroms.

The execution probably wasn't the most just thing (especially the kids), but I'm not too upset about it.
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Old 13th June 2018, 08:01 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Being a serf is not necessarily being "abused", any more than someone having to go out and earn a wage (oh, is that the time...?)
Are... are you defending serfdom?

I... wow. Shall we do the "most masters treated their slaves well" tango as well?
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Old 13th June 2018, 08:25 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Are... are you defending serfdom?

I... wow. Shall we do the "most masters treated their slaves well" tango as well?
I've stopped being surprised.
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Old 13th June 2018, 09:34 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Being a serf is not necessarily being "abused", any more than someone having to go out and earn a wage (oh, is that the time...?)
Are you conflating the need to provide an income to support yourself with a social status whereby you:

a. Are prohibited from seeking employment other than that authorized by your master;
b. Are prohibited from seeking better opportunities elsewhere;
c. Are not allowed to make significant life choices without consulting your master;
d. Have different legal rights than your master;
e. Have no right of recourse for wrongs committed against you by your master; and
f. Are considered to be a semi-sentient part of the estate (ie. you and your services can be sold off to pay your master's debts)
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Old 13th June 2018, 10:12 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
So now you're also advocating in favour of slavery?
Now you are being very, very silly.
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Old 13th June 2018, 10:17 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Are... are you defending serfdom?

I... wow. Shall we do the "most masters treated their slaves well" tango as well?
It's economic evolution. It only became obsolete because of the industrial revolution. Serfs were needed as workers, instead.


Do most bosses treat their employees well? If you look at history, workers had to fight for every right: the right to sick pay, holidays, maternity leave, paternity leave, pensions, job security, right not to be sacked without a proper reason, etc.etc.
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Old 13th June 2018, 10:28 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Are you conflating the need to provide an income to support yourself with a social status whereby you:

a. Are prohibited from seeking employment other than that authorized by your master;
b. Are prohibited from seeking better opportunities elsewhere;
c. Are not allowed to make significant life choices without consulting your master;
d. Have different legal rights than your master;
e. Have no right of recourse for wrongs committed against you by your master; and
f. Are considered to be a semi-sentient part of the estate (ie. you and your services can be sold off to pay your master's debts)
a. Many companies have a clause in their small print that you cannot work for a rival within X no. of months/years of leaving.

b. Many trainee professionals get study support on the condition they stay with the employer up to three years (I heard this was the case in Australia for student accountants) after qualifying, or you have to pay it all back.

c. Depends what you mean by this. It probably applies to both landowner and serf. For example, my grandmother had to get permission from her parents to marry my grandfather. They refused permission for a prior suitor. Harry had to get permission from the Queen to marry Meghan.

d. In any contract the interests of the contractor and contractee are bound to be differentiated.

e. I am sure your master could not get away with crimes against your person, even under feudalism. One of my forebears was subjected to canon law for having a dispute during a church service, with another member of the congregation. She was fined X amount. She was a noblewoman. Had she been one of the commoners, she would have been made to sit by the door in penance.

f. Have you heard of TUPE? In the UK, this refers to your employers changing because the company you work for has been taken over by another company. You can decline, but then you are out of work.
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Old 13th June 2018, 10:37 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Why don't you give us that list? That wiki article included lots of wars that didn't come close to Finland.

This is something you can easily find for yourself.

As an example, my sixth great-grandfather is said to have married just in time before the Russians arrived, making him and his bride flee.

Quote:
Kosken Tl historian mukaan "Nyhässä asunut kornetti Christian Bergin rouva ehti ennen venäläisten tuloa lähteä pakoon" (venäläiset olivat marssineet 28.8.1713 Turkuun ja ryöstelivät viikon verran lähipitäjiä ja palasivat sitten Helsinkiin).
This would have been during the Great Northern War (he was a major).
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Old 13th June 2018, 10:56 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's economic evolution. It only became obsolete because of the industrial revolution. Serfs were needed as workers, instead.
No, that's a bunch of determinist hogwash. Serfdom in Russia ended for political reasons. Similarly, the industrial revolution didn't simply create a demand for workers - farmers increasingly moved into cities when working the land wasn't profitable enough, and the mechanics surrounding that were incredibly complex and still hotly debated. Industrialization took a long, long time to pay off and was incredibly costly in terms of the human toll.

Economics do not just fix things. That's a comforting neoliberal mythology that devalues protest and activism.

Quote:
Do most bosses treat their employees well? If you look at history, workers had to fight for every right: the right to sick pay, holidays, maternity leave, paternity leave, pensions, job security, right not to be sacked without a proper reason, etc.etc.
"Robber barons were terrible too, so slavery and serfdom weren't too bad"? Is that your argument?
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Old 13th June 2018, 01:56 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
No, that's a bunch of determinist hogwash. Serfdom in Russia ended for political reasons. Similarly, the industrial revolution didn't simply create a demand for workers - farmers increasingly moved into cities when working the land wasn't profitable enough, and the mechanics surrounding that were incredibly complex and still hotly debated. Industrialization took a long, long time to pay off and was incredibly costly in terms of the human toll.

Economics do not just fix things. That's a comforting neoliberal mythology that devalues protest and activism.



"Robber barons were terrible too, so slavery and serfdom weren't too bad"? Is that your argument?
Be that as it may. It wasn't always the fault of the landowner that people turned up on their land as serfs:

Quote:
Russian Serfs. Serfdom was not the original status of the Russian peasant. It was one of the consequences of the Tartar devastation during the 13th century when peasants became homeless and settled on the land of wealthy Russians
http://spartacus-educational.com/RUSserfs.htm

I should make it clear, I in no way condone serfdom or slavery. I cannot believe four in five Russians were once serfs. I dare say there is an historical reason for this development.

However, just as being a serf is an accident of birth, so is the land holder.
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Old 13th June 2018, 01:56 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Now you are being very, very silly.
Well someone is, but its not ddt. You have repeatedly dodged facts to try and hold Russia to blame for the fate of the Baltic Germans as well as ignoring the fact that the pre 1918 status of the Baltic Germans was essentially feudal and oppressive.

ETA: Oh and the answer to your OP is still no, modern Russia has no liability for the actions of the independent Baltic republics, Nazi Germany or the USSR.
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Old 13th June 2018, 02:14 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Well someone is, but its not ddt. You have repeatedly dodged facts to try and hold Russia to blame for the fate of the Baltic Germans as well as ignoring the fact that the pre 1918 status of the Baltic Germans was essentially feudal and oppressive.

ETA: Oh and the answer to your OP is still no, modern Russia has no liability for the actions of the independent Baltic republics, Nazi Germany or the USSR.
And no doubt you don't believe Russians have any responsibility for the assassination of the Czar and his family.
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Old 13th June 2018, 02:28 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
And no doubt you don't believe Russians have any responsibility for the assassination of the Czar and his family.
A complete non-sequitur. The Baltic Republics took the Baltic Germans privileges away and 96% of their land, Hitler evacuated the majority of them prior to 1941 and Russia is not the same entity as the USSR. The facts you provided prove your suggestion is a nonsense, but you are apparently intent on throwing up endless irrelevances to avoid accepting that fact.
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:13 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
A complete non-sequitur. The Baltic Republics took the Baltic Germans privileges away and 96% of their land, Hitler evacuated the majority of them prior to 1941 and Russia is not the same entity as the USSR. The facts you provided prove your suggestion is a nonsense, but you are apparently intent on throwing up endless irrelevances to avoid accepting that fact.
You have ignored my later posts.

But do keep harping on.
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:22 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
And no doubt you don't believe Russians have any responsibility for the assassination of the Czar and his family.
Ah, the Wookie Defence.

I don't see it as being "harping on" by Garrison to point out the facts that you seem reluctant to acknowledge.
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:39 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Ah, the Wookie Defence.

I don't see it as being "harping on" by Garrison to point out the facts that you seem reluctant to acknowledge.
I have since said that Estonia and Latvia should recompense them in principle (not that it will ever happen). If that isn't 'acknowledging the facts', then what is?

I disagree that today's Russia has nothing to do with the USSR.

Heck, Putin has said he is a staunch Stalinist.
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:46 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Now you are being very, very silly.
It's the first time I see someone speak of themself in the second person.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
a. Many companies have a clause in their small print that you cannot work for a rival within X no. of months/years of leaving.
Which still leaves an awful lot of other companies they can go work for.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
b. Many trainee professionals get study support on the condition they stay with the employer up to three years (I heard this was the case in Australia for student accountants) after qualifying, or you have to pay it all back.
... and such companies damn well justify before a judge the amounts they demand as payback.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
c. Depends what you mean by this. It probably applies to both landowner and serf.
Really?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
For example, my grandmother had to get permission from her parents to marry my grandfather. They refused permission for a prior suitor.
You carefully avoid mentioning the reason. I can make a guess. Under the Dutch Civil Code, art. 99, of 1838 - which was valid until 1970 - children under 30 years needed parental permission for a marriage. My grandmother didn't get permission either, hence my grandparents eloped to France and got married there. (France also had a requirement for parental permission beyond adulthood, but to a lesser age).
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Harry had to get permission from the Queen to marry Meghan.
He could also not have gotten it and given up his right to become British Monarch. And that's really the only job where such an anomaly exists.

Really, you compare this extended parental permission - you know, permission from the two people who raised you and are responsible for your well-being - to serfdom where serfs lifelong had to get permission to marry from their masters?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
d. In any contract the interests of the contractor and contractee are bound to be differentiated.
Way to misinterpret. Employers and employees are equal under the law. Serfs and their masters were not.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
e. I am sure your master could not get away with crimes against your person, even under feudalism. One of my forebears was subjected to canon law for having a dispute during a church service, with another member of the congregation. She was fined X amount. She was a noblewoman. Had she been one of the commoners, she would have been made to sit by the door in penance.
You have no way to prove that hypothetical, and anyway, your example is canon law, and the infraction of the dispute is not against another person but against the church.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
f. Have you heard of TUPE? In the UK, this refers to your employers changing because the company you work for has been taken over by another company. You can decline, but then you are out of work.
TUPE requires the acquiring company to honour the job contracts with the employees that the acquired company had signed. That's quite another thing than a master who can dispose of serfs as he sees fit and sell them to someone else as if they're property.

Really, every single one of your counter arguments is a fallacy.
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:48 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Ah, the Wookie Defence.

I don't see it as being "harping on" by Garrison to point out the facts that you seem reluctant to acknowledge.
After how much effort is it reasonable to change "reluctant to acknowledge" into "deny"?
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:55 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I have since said that Estonia and Latvia should recompense them in principle (not that it will ever happen). If that isn't 'acknowledging the facts', then what is?
Oh wow, you did in post #126, whereas Garrison was so late to the party that he only pointed out the fatal flaw in your OP in post #2.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I disagree that today's Russia has nothing to do with the USSR.

Heck, Putin has said he is a staunch Stalinist.
<citation required>
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:58 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
And even those that did included wars in which Sweden attacked Russia.
For most of them Finland was a sideshow.
I can only guess that Vixen counts Poltava among the "ancient Finnish homelands".

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This is something you can easily find for yourself.
Your claim, the onus of proof is on you.
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