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Tags Venezuela incidents , Venezuela issues , Venezuela politics

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Old 6th June 2018, 09:55 AM   #41
3point14
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
The US has allies?
It used to.

Now it has tariffs.
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Old 6th June 2018, 05:08 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Or even two factors of ten
See?
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Old 9th June 2018, 02:31 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Where did it all go wrong for Venezuela? It used to be one of the strongest economies in South America.
Broadly, corruption, poor institutions, authoritarian politics and abundant, but unpredictable natural resources combined into a classic resource curse. Boom-bust cycle from Hell with terrible magament of currency/capital as oil prices fluctuated in 1973 and onward.

It's debatable how much of the current disaster is due to Chavez and his goons - certainly their policies did nothing to help (and probably made things a good bit worse), but his rise to prominence was a symptom of an ongoing disaster.

It's not a phenomenon unique to Venezuela, especially not in Latin America. It's basically the banana republic phenomenon.
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Old 9th June 2018, 09:54 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Where did it all go wrong for Venezuela? It used to be one of the strongest economies in South America.
When? In the 1960s and '70s.
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Old 11th June 2018, 01:55 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
When? In the 1960s and '70s.
And then again in the 80's and 90's and again in the 00's and 10's...
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Old 11th June 2018, 05:30 AM   #46
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Yes, again and again. You can't help wondering about the the kind of evil genius that it must have required of the young Chavez to accomplish that.
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Old 11th June 2018, 12:26 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
When? In the 1960s and '70s.
Whenever oil prices were high. Low oil prices always led to an economic crisis in Venezuela, but now they're in such a mess that even rising prices will not help.
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Old 11th June 2018, 12:31 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
The US has allies?
North Korea and Russia...
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Old 11th June 2018, 12:33 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Whenever oil prices were high. Low oil prices always led to an economic crisis in Venezuela, but now they're in such a mess that even rising prices will not help.
ANd Chavez wrecked Venzuela's economy when Oil prices were at a high point.
The attempts of the True Beleivers to get CHavez off the hook are pretty amusing.
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Old 11th June 2018, 02:51 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
ANd Chavez wrecked Venzuela's economy when Oil prices were at a high point.
The attempts of the True Beleivers to get CHavez off the hook are pretty amusing.
What attempts are these?
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Old 11th June 2018, 09:24 PM   #51
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Some people seem to think that if Chavez hadn't tried to redistribute the revenue from oil so the poor also got a share, for instance in the form of health care, the former beneficiaries, the upper classes, would have invested it wisely and in the current situation would have used it to feed the poor. You know, the Venezuelan version of the myth of trickle-down economics. When something goes wrong with an economy, blame the socialists and the poor! The latter are always much too greedy (they want health care, for instance), and the former don't do what leaders of state are supposed to do: restrict the greed of the poor!
Some people also don't seem to notice that Chavez has died. You can't be more off the hook than that. (Not that Venezula's situation would have been any different if he were still alive.)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th June 2018, 09:17 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Some people seem to think that if Chavez hadn't tried to redistribute the revenue from oil so the poor also got a share, for instance in the form of health care, the former beneficiaries, the upper classes, would have invested it wisely and in the current situation would have used it to feed the poor. You know, the Venezuelan version of the myth of trickle-down economics. When something goes wrong with an economy, blame the socialists and the poor!
Are you suggesting the socialists are not to blame here?

Quote:
The latter are always much too greedy (they want health care, for instance), and the former don't do what leaders of state are supposed to do: restrict the greed of the poor!
That's... not what socialists do wrong.

Quote:
Some people also don't seem to notice that Chavez has died. You can't be more off the hook than that. (Not that Venezula's situation would have been any different if he were still alive.)
Chavez screwed things up completely before he died. Maduro is his hand-picked successor, and is continuing Chavez's disastrous policies. It's entirely appropriate to blame Chavez, though he is certainly not the only one deserving blame.
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Old 12th June 2018, 01:20 PM   #53
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"... things ... completely ...". Yeah, right!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th June 2018, 02:20 PM   #54
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"There are two models, the neoliberal model which destroys everything, and the Chavista model which is centered around people." --Nicolas Maduro. Maduro is keeping his promise to the Venezuelan people: never give in to neoliberalism.
The Working class of Venezuela have to work more hours of labor to put food on the table, clothes and their backs, and shelter over their heads or to extract a barrel of oil out of the ground. It also is an inefficient use of natural resources requiring more land to grow the same amount of food.
Chavista socialism uses the language of providing for the poor but fails to deliver.
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Old 12th June 2018, 07:09 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Chavista socialism uses the language of providing for the poor but fails to deliver.
FTFY.
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Old 12th June 2018, 11:12 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Chavista socialism uses the language of providing for the poor but fails to deliver.

No, it was actually more than language. They. did improve conditions for the poor - otherwise they wouldn't have retained the support they did. The mistake they made was to rely too much on oil. When the price of oil fell, they had no way of maintaining for instance the improvements in health care they had achieved.
This is in contrast to Cuba's ability to survive the (far worse) Special Period in the early 1990s when
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The dissolution of the Soviet Union hit the Cuban economy severely. The country lost approximately 80% of its imports, 80% of its exports and its Gross Domestic Product dropped by 34%. Food and medicine imports stopped or severely slowed. The largest immediate impact was the loss of nearly all of the petroleum imports from the USSR; Cuba's oil imports dropped to 10% of pre-1990 amounts.
The extent of the crisis of the Special Period and how the Cubans managed it is also described in the American documentary The Power of Community: How Cuba Survived Peak Oil] (Wikipedia).
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However, Cubans had much more experience with self-organized community solutions to various problems, and I doubt that Cuba has the strength to help its ally in the current crisis.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th June 2018, 05:29 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, it was actually more than language. They. did improve conditions for the poor - otherwise they wouldn't have retained the support they did. The mistake they made was to rely too much on oil. When the price of oil fell, they had no way of maintaining for instance the improvements in health care they had achieved.
The collapse was hastened by the drop in oil prices, but it was always inevitable. The Chavistas can't even keep oil production from collapsing. It's like the joke about the Soviets invading the Sahara. Everything was going fine until 5 years later, they ran out of sand. Well how do you run out of oil in Venezuela? Put the socialists in charge.
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Old 13th June 2018, 08:32 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The Chavistas can't even keep oil production from collapsing.

No, that can be hard to do when prices drop. That and an old joke confirming your prejudice seems to be your only arguments.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th June 2018, 09:58 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, that can be hard to do when prices drop. That and an old joke confirming your prejudice seems to be your only arguments.
Oil production has been decreasing since 2005. Oil prices were still increasing at that point, and went quite a bit higher.

It's your own prejudices you're trying to confirm by ignoring the actual facts.
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Old 13th June 2018, 11:35 AM   #60
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They are having food shortages despite having plenty of arable land and they have resorted to slave farm labor:
https://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/29/vene...rm-sector.html

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/ne...forced-labour/
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Old 13th June 2018, 11:51 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
They are having food shortages despite having plenty of arable land and they have resorted to slave farm labor:
https://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/29/vene...rm-sector.html

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/ne...forced-labour/
Who would have thought that socialism could ever produce food shortages?
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Old 13th June 2018, 01:10 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Who would have thought that socialism could ever produce food shortages?
Or a mass exodus of farmers, and collapse of collectivization efforts?
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Old 13th June 2018, 01:44 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Who would have thought that socialism could ever produce food shortages?
Or capitalism, for that matter
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Old 13th June 2018, 02:11 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Or capitalism, for that matter
Yeah, no, that wasn't capitalism, that was mercantilism.
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:33 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yeah, no, that wasn't capitalism, that was mercantilism.
Oh, yeah, they just thought they were doing capitalism, implementing capitalist theories, based on capitalist ideologies, and worship of the free market. They just didn't get it right. I guess it's one of those theory and practice things, huh? Like how Venezuela is obviously state capitalism, not real socialism.
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Old 13th June 2018, 07:50 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Oh, yeah, they just thought they were doing capitalism, implementing capitalist theories, based on capitalist ideologies, and worship of the free market.
No, they did not think they were doing capitalism. They didn't want to do capitalism. Their agenda was explicitly colonialist and mercantilist. Free trade was the last thing on their minds.
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Old 14th June 2018, 12:29 AM   #67
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TubbaBlubba, you ought to know by now that things like hunger are never caused by capitalism. The market economy is basically God's way of providing food for everybody:

Quote:
In The Medieval History JournalVinita Damodaran cites Mike Davies who argues that colonized territories, such as India and Ireland, were used as experiments to understand the impacts of free market economics. The results were famine and devastation for the people.
The Great Bengal famine of 1770 (Wikipedia)
Great famine (Ireland) 1845-49 (Wikipedia) (See also: Irish food exports during Famine)
Bengal famine of 1943 (Wikipedia)
Bangladesh famine of 1974 (Wikipedia)
Old Hunger, New Hunger (GegenStandpunkt)
The "World Hunger Problem" (Ruthless Criticism)
Globalized hunger, hunger riots and imperialist order problems (Ruthless Criticism)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 14th June 2018, 02:24 AM   #68
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Socialism might in some cases work, but the only experiment was terminated prematurely. (ČSSR in 1960s)
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Old 14th June 2018, 05:26 AM   #69
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I should have included this quotation about the superiority of capitalism in my reference to the Great Famine above:

Quote:
Throughout the entire period of the Famine, Ireland was exporting enormous quantities of food. (...) The problem in Ireland was not lack of food, which was plentiful, but the price of it, which was beyond the reach of the poor.
Great Famine (Ireland): Irish food exports during Famine (Wikipedia)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th June 2018, 05:54 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Mercantilism again. Not even close to a free market.

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Both due largely to war. War is pretty much the ultimate in government interference in markets.

This attempt to equate capitalism with socialism is getting pathetic.
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Old 14th June 2018, 06:02 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, they did not think they were doing capitalism. They didn't want to do capitalism. Their agenda was explicitly colonialist and mercantilist. Free trade was the last thing on their minds.
I suggest reading Late Victorian Holocausts. It might widen your understanding of what they thought they were doing. What you call mercantilism is how free trade and free markets were understood at the time.
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Old 14th June 2018, 06:27 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
I suggest reading Late Victorian Holocausts. It might widen your understanding of what they thought they were doing. What you call mercantilism is how free trade and free markets were understood at the time.
No. This is how they thought trade and markets worked. But it was explicitly NOT free trade or free markets. Not by accident, but by design. And it was mercantilism, not capitalism, regardless of what they thought.
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Old 14th June 2018, 07:14 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But it was explicitly NOT free trade or free markets.

The Great Famine in Ireland obviously was!
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Old 14th June 2018, 07:37 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Or capitalism, for that matter
One of many. About 48 million died in the various famines during British rule.
The notable exception was the Bihar famine in 1873–74 where extensive relief efforts kept fatalities very low.
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Old 14th June 2018, 09:21 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The Great Famine in Ireland obviously was!
Uh, no. No, it was not. There were a number of laws which interfered with the economy in significant ways. The British Corn laws, for example, prohibited importation of grains to Ireland. They were repealed part-way into the famine, but their existence meant that the infrastructure to properly handle that grain (such as mills to grind corn from America) was not in place, significantly reducing the effectiveness of imports in alleviating the famine. The legal requirement to break up farms into sub-plots for inheritance reduced Catholic land ownership and made farmers more vulnerable to crop failure. Various other anti-Catholic regulations also helped stifle local economic development of non-agrarian industries. Ireland was definitely not a free market.
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Old 14th June 2018, 09:44 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Uh, no. No, it was not. There were a number of laws which interfered with the economy in significant ways.
That's not in dispute. The British, however, still very much understood those regulations as setting up a free market that would take care of itself by means of the invisiible hand and which they were best off not intervening in.

While most economists would disagree that it qualifies as a free market today, that doesn't change the fact that ideological stubbornness was a huge contributor to the famine.
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Old 14th June 2018, 09:55 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
I suggest reading Late Victorian Holocausts.

This one?! Looks interesting! I just Kindled it!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th June 2018, 09:57 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Uh, no. No, it was not. There were a number of laws which interfered with the economy in significant ways.
That's not in dispute. The British, however, still very much understood those regulations as setting up a free market that would take care of itself by means of the invisiible hand and which they were best off not intervening in.

While most economists would disagree that it qualifies as a free market today, that doesn't change the fact that ideological stubbornness was a huge contributor to the famine.

There are always a number of laws that interfere with the economy in significant ways.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th June 2018, 10:33 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
That's not in dispute. The British, however, still very much understood those regulations as setting up a free market that would take care of itself by means of the invisiible hand and which they were best off not intervening in.

While most economists would disagree that it qualifies as a free market today, that doesn't change the fact that ideological stubbornness was a huge contributor to the famine.
You claimed capitalism was to blame, not ideological stubbornness. You have moved the goalpost.
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Old 14th June 2018, 12:31 PM   #80
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Roughly 80 percent of people that died of starvation last century was as a direct result of deprivatization of agriculture (according to Steven Pinker in his latest book). The other 20 percent were due to famine, drought, pestilence, war, flooding, etc.
To blame starvation on the voluntary exchange of goods and services in the private sector is ridiculous. Look at what happened to food production in China after they begun dabbling with voluntary exchange in Deng Xiaoping.
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