ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Brexit

Reply
Old 12th June 2018, 12:51 PM   #3161
P.J. Denyer
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,806
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The key difference is that while general elections are binding, the referendum was non-binding.
Actually, I'd say that the key difference is that general elections are only binding for the next four years. Sadly Brexit comes without an expiry date.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2018, 01:16 PM   #3162
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 5,270
Sadly Remain also came without an expiry date.
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2018, 02:08 PM   #3163
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 24,591
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Boris admitted in January this year that the £350 million a week figure was wrong.


It was too low. He said that UK’s gross EU contribution was already up to £362m per week for 2017-18 and would rise annually to £410m, £431m, and then to £438m by 2020-21 – “theoretically the last year of the transition period”.
Of course it's the net contribution that's the key...
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2018, 03:29 PM   #3164
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 5,270
Boris's argument is that we're "taking back control" of the gross figure.
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2018, 03:50 PM   #3165
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 24,591
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Boris's argument is that we're "taking back control" of the gross figure.
And yet this argument only emerged when his original claim was shown to be garbage...
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2018, 06:12 PM   #3166
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 16,075
In the words of Lord Melchett he twists and turns like a twisty turny thing.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2018, 10:42 PM   #3167
Amazer
Graduate Poster
 
Amazer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,487
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Boris's argument is that we're "taking back control" of the gross figure.
It usually isn't a good sign if you need to start interpreting statements... just saying.

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk
Amazer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2018, 11:46 PM   #3168
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 24,591
In rather disappointing news, parliament no longer has a meaningful say in the Brexit process. Sure there was an alleged compromise offered by the government to potential "rebels", but in true Brexit fashion it turns out to be largely illusory:

Quote:
A group of MPs said on Tuesday they were offered, in a last-minute concession, real "input" if no deal with the EU was done by December.

But a senior minister, Solicitor General Robert Buckland, raised doubts about what had been offered, saying nothing specific had been agreed.
Taken at face value, there are so many holes in this "deal" that it's not funny.

It isn't reassuring when those who have been bought off by the deal immediately express their hopes that the government actually keeps to its side of the deal.

Quote:
Theresa May must honour "assurances" she's given that Parliament will get a bigger say on any final Brexit deal, pro-EU Tory MPs say.
IMO parliamentary oversight will be avoided by announcing that a deal has been made (no matter how unfavourable the terms). So much for the democratic deficit of the EU - our government seems to be deliberately trying to ensure that Parliament is sidelined.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44463199
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 02:05 AM   #3169
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 5,270
What do the rebels really want? The ability to have a veto on Brexit and force us to remain in the EU? Staying in the Customs Union? I don't know if those things are even possible: they would certainly depend on cooperation from the EU, and would be in breach of the manifesto the Conservative party, including rebels, stood on at the last General Election.

Originally Posted by Conservative manifesto
As we leave the European Union, we will no longer be members of the Single Market or the Customs Union but we will seek a deep and special partnership including a free trade and customs agreement.


There seem to be more holes in the rebels' position than there are in the Government's - and that's saying something!

So does anyone have any concrete suggestions for what the rebels are really trying to achieve?

Last edited by ceptimus; 13th June 2018 at 02:14 AM.
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 02:18 AM   #3170
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 24,591
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
What do the rebels really want? The ability to have a veto on Brexit and force us to remain in the EU? Staying in the Customs Union? I don't know if those things are even possible. They would certainly depend on cooperation from the EU, and would be in breach of the manifesto the Conservative party, including rebels, stood on at the last General Election.


There seem to be more holes in the rebels' position than there are in the Governments - and that's saying something!


So does anyone have any concrete suggestions for what the rebels are really trying to achieve?
My understanding is that they want parliamentary scrutiny of whatever Brexit deal is proposed rather than just rubber-stamping whatever the government manages to cobble together. The hope from Remoaners was that they may be able to mitigate some of the damage if the government's deal was a particularly bad one - or indeed no deal whatsoever. While they still have a verbal assurance that parliament will be consulted in the event of "no deal" (though I share Sam Goldwyn's views on the value of a verbal contract), in effect the long term future of the UK has been passed to a deeply divided Conservative Party propped up by the DUP (who, lest we forget is the Protestant Taliban).

Of course this cuts both ways because it would also give parliament the ability to reject a Brexit deal if, for example, it turned out to be a deal involving increased payments to the EU to remain in the EEA and customs union.

I'm still puzzled at the government's "Brexit at any cost" stance. They have committed the UK to a course of action, regardless of the consequences. That doesn't seem very sensible to me.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 02:25 AM   #3171
wobs
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Hull
Posts: 1,654
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
My understanding is that they want parliamentary scrutiny of whatever Brexit deal is proposed rather than just rubber-stamping whatever the government manages to cobble together. The hope from Remoaners was that they may be able to mitigate some of the damage if the government's deal was a particularly bad one - or indeed no deal whatsoever. While they still have a verbal assurance that parliament will be consulted in the event of "no deal" (though I share Sam Goldwyn's views on the value of a verbal contract), in effect the long term future of the UK has been passed to a deeply divided Conservative Party propped up by the DUP (who, lest we forget is the Protestant Taliban).

Of course this cuts both ways because it would also give parliament the ability to reject a Brexit deal if, for example, it turned out to be a deal involving increased payments to the EU to remain in the EEA and customs union.

I'm still puzzled at the government's "Brexit at any cost" stance. They have committed the UK to a course of action, regardless of the consequences. That doesn't seem very sensible to me.
Sounds like many in Parliament know it will be bad for the country, but lack the courage to stop it. Much easier to let it happen, and the blame can then be set on the Tories in power.

Not exactly reassuring for us mere mortals.
__________________
"To vowels. They stop consonants sticking together like boiled sweets in a paper bag."
wobs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 02:27 AM   #3172
Francesca R
Girl
 
Francesca R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London EC1
Posts: 17,769
"Keep a Tory-led government" is rationally a higher objective than "Brexit at any cost".

However completely reneging on the latter would probably torpedo the former, meaning there does have to be some kind of exit. But so would adopting hard brexit, so the endeavour is ever more tortuous methods to keep the ship afloat.

The brexiteers (who are not the ones being called rebels in the current scenario) could force a leadership crisis / change at any time if they want to, and the most likely outcome of that will be more of a hard brexit leader. That they do not is ongoing indication that they also believe it would upset the primary objective, IE it is still the case that nobody can see a viable way though to a Tory led hard brexit (or no deal)
Francesca R is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 02:29 AM   #3173
Francesca R
Girl
 
Francesca R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London EC1
Posts: 17,769
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
does anyone have any concrete suggestions for what the rebels are really trying to achieve?
Maximum likelihood of soft version of exit (customs union) while not toppling PM May
Francesca R is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 02:46 AM   #3174
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 5,270
Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
Maximum likelihood of soft version of exit (customs union) while not toppling PM May
In breach of the manifesto they stood on then. If you're right then rebels show once more that they have no respect for democracy.
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 03:22 AM   #3175
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,021
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
In breach of the manifesto they stood on then. If you're right then rebels show once more that they have no respect for democracy.
Except, of course, that the government's negotiations since that election have shown that their manifesto pledge is actually unachievable.
Tolls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 03:24 AM   #3176
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 5,270
Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Except, of course, that the government's negotiations since that election have shown that their manifesto pledge is actually unachievable.
How so? Please explain why their manifesto pledge is unachievable.
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 03:33 AM   #3177
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 24,591
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
In breach of the manifesto they stood on then. If you're right then rebels show once more that they have no respect for democracy.
Individual MPs often deviate from party policy, even one in the manifesto. Some do it out of a sense of conviction, some do it to represent the interests of their constituents and some do it simply because they are awkward.

IMO slavish adherence to a manifesto pledge IMO is more of an issue w.r.t. democracy IF it puts party above country. That's not to say that rebels shouldn't be criticised by their parliamentary colleagues but then again they shouldn't necessarily be damned especially if the manifesto pledge is a poor one - either because it's bad for the country or because, in the cold light of day, it's unachievable.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 03:42 AM   #3178
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,469
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
How so? Please explain why their manifesto pledge is unachievable.
The self-evident inability to come up with a workable "special partnership including a free trade and customs agreement."
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 03:44 AM   #3179
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,021
Well, there's Northern Ireland for a start.
Tolls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 03:50 AM   #3180
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 24,591
Oh noes, no more champagne in Wetherspoons (possibly a bit of a niche)!

Quote:
Pub chain JD Wetherspoon has said it will replace champagne with sparkling wines from the UK from next month.

The company's founder, Tim Martin, who campaigned for Brexit, said it was part of a transition away from products made in the European Union.

Under the plan, British wheat beer and alcohol-free beer will replace the current beers brewed in Germany.

Mr Martin said the new drinks would be cheaper than the European Union products that they are replacing.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44465657

Ah, but will the quality be as good ?

I know that the best UK-made sparkling wine is as good as mainstream champagnes but it's also pretty pricey. I can easily pick up decent champagne at around £15 a bottle, you'd be hard-pressed to find a British sparkler at that price. If you're more flexible, there's an excellent range of new and old world sparklers available at under half that price.

Likewise with the beers. In my experience UK-made facsimiles of foreign beers are almost always inferior. Whether it's UK-made versions of the original or similar-but-different products, IMO they're nowhere near as good. I don't know whether it's different ingredients (especially water), changes to the process, altering the recipe to suit local tastes, other factors or a combination of all of them but they're not as good*.

At least it's an indication as to our future. Instead of having a range of products from a number of countries, we'll have fewer products made here in the UK. If a better product was already available at a lower price here, surely it would already have a presence in the market.

* - case in point. My local brewery, BaaBrewing, makes a range of excellent bitters and a really nice IPA - I wouldn't drink their pilsner again on a bet. The same is true of the Kingstone Brewery, great beers, really lousy lager. In both cases, they're also a lot more expensive than some pretty decent imported stuff.


*** edited to add ***
Less choice and a reliance on locally-made products feels like a return to the 1970s to me. At the time I was living in a small town in the North East of England. Consumer choice at the time was limited to say the least.

Last edited by The Don; 13th June 2018 at 03:53 AM.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 04:18 AM   #3181
Francesca R
Girl
 
Francesca R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London EC1
Posts: 17,769
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
In breach of the manifesto they stood on then. If you're right then rebels show once more that they have no respect for democracy.
Do you agree what I wrote is what they want to achieve? (Helps to understand your opponent)

Last edited by Francesca R; 13th June 2018 at 04:21 AM.
Francesca R is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 04:55 AM   #3182
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 5,270
Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
Do you agree what I wrote is what they want to achieve? (Helps to understand your opponent)
Yes, I think you're right. If you are, I wonder how they will justify abandoning their manifesto commitments.
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 04:59 AM   #3183
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 5,270
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
The self-evident inability to come up with a workable "special partnership including a free trade and customs agreement."
If they are it's only because the EU won't compromise on that. But this still remains to be seen - you are prejudging the outcome.
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 05:16 AM   #3184
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,469
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Yes, I think you're right. If you are, I wonder how they will justify abandoning their manifesto commitments.
Because obviously that never happens....
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 05:19 AM   #3185
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,469
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
If they are it's only because the EU won't compromise on that.
Hardly a one-sided phenomenon. When Leave supporters put pre-conditions they're "red lines," when the EU does the same it's, "the EU won't compromise."

Quote:
But this still remains to be seen - you are prejudging the outcome.
So are you.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 05:20 AM   #3186
Francesca R
Girl
 
Francesca R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London EC1
Posts: 17,769
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Yes, I think you're right. If you are, I wonder how they will justify abandoning their manifesto commitments.
I don't
Francesca R is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 05:52 AM   #3187
Wildy
Adelaidean
 
Wildy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 10,869
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
We had the most meaningful of meaningful votes already. All the voters in the country were entitled to vote in that one, and it's now up to parliament to deliver what was voted for.
Which is only that the UK leaves the EU, not the manner in which it leaves. A solution like that of Norway or Switzerland would be perfectly in line with what was voted for - that the UK leaves the EU.

Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Well tried and tested EU method of subverting democracy. Keep holding extra votes till you get the result you want - and then never hold another vote after that one.
Could you elaborate on these points?

Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
This is because Johnson backed leave as a strategy to become Cameron's successor. Which hasn't worked so far.
Because his succession strategy was based on Cameron being the one to lead the UK out of the EU. Cameron leaving cocked the whole thing up for him.

Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
In breach of the manifesto they stood on then. If you're right then rebels show once more that they have no respect for democracy.
Perhaps the Tories should take a leaf out of their colonial counterparts and label those parts of the manifesto as "non-core promises".
__________________
Wildy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 06:51 AM   #3188
Strawberry
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,544
One of the amendments passed last night requires no hard border between Ireland and NI. Since there is no way to uphold that without staying in the SM and CU, Brexit is effectively dead in the water, or at least a hard Brexit is.

Its no wonder the remain rebels didn't kick up too much of a stink, they didn't really need to with that written into UK law.
Strawberry is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 06:58 AM   #3189
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 24,591
Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
One of the amendments passed last night requires no hard border between Ireland and NI. Since there is no way to uphold that without staying in the SM and CU, Brexit is effectively dead in the water, or at least a hard Brexit is.

Its no wonder the remain rebels didn't kick up too much of a stink, they didn't really need to with that written into UK law.
I suppose it comes down to what is meant by "no hard border" - maybe anything short of a Berlin Wall-style construction could be considered "soft" in the context of a political agreement. Checkpoints and custom posts and airborne patrols are "soft" because the hardened infrastructure is only localised.

Then again, that requirement could be dropped (and the blame laid at the feet of the EU) in order to achieve the version of Brexit that the majority of the Conservative Party seem to be working towards.

Or, the hard border could be between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. The DUP won't be happy with that but the removal of parliamentary oversight over any deal has done away with their ability to do anything about it.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 07:00 AM   #3190
Strawberry
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,544
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I suppose it comes down to what is meant by "no hard border" - maybe anything short of a Berlin Wall-style construction could be considered "soft" in the context of a political agreement. Checkpoints and custom posts and airborne patrols are "soft" because the hardened infrastructure is only localised.

Then again, that requirement could be dropped (and the blame laid at the feet of the EU) in order to achieve the version of Brexit that the majority of the Conservative Party seem to be working towards.

Or, the hard border could be between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. The DUP won't be happy with that but the removal of parliamentary oversight over any deal has done away with their ability to do anything about it.
The amendment specifies no physical infrastructure at the Irish border.

I can't see any British government allowing NI to stay in the SM and CU while the rest of the UK leaves, it would risk half the City of London moving to Belfast.
Strawberry is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 07:13 AM   #3191
Francesca R
Girl
 
Francesca R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London EC1
Posts: 17,769
Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
One of the amendments passed last night requires no hard border between Ireland and NI. Since there is no way to uphold that without staying in the SM and CU, Brexit is effectively dead in the water, or at least a hard Brexit is.
I agree pretty much.
Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
Oh well I have come to regard the north-south Ireland border situation as rather a good thing that will force a soft Brexit outcome. [ . . . ]
. . . . although if some magic tech appeared that required no additional infrastructure then that bet is off.
Francesca R is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 07:14 AM   #3192
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 24,591
Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
The amendment specifies no physical infrastructure at the Irish border.
How about 1 mile away ?

If the amendment is that specific then it'll have to be ignored instead because the Conservative government is hellbent on at least a "firm" Brexit if not a "hard" Brexit

Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
I can't see any British government allowing NI to stay in the SM and CU while the rest of the UK leaves, it would risk half the City of London moving to Belfast.
Better than it moving to Paris or Frankfurt ?
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 07:19 AM   #3193
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 5,270
Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
One of the amendments passed last night requires no hard border between Ireland and NI. Since there is no way to uphold that without staying in the SM and CU, Brexit is effectively dead in the water, or at least a hard Brexit is.

Nonsense. There was no hard border between Ireland and NI before the SM and CU even existed. How was that managed if membership of the SM and CU is a prerequisite?


All it takes for us to be out of the SM and the CU and have no hard border is the agreement of the EU to allow it.

Last edited by ceptimus; 13th June 2018 at 07:20 AM.
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 08:08 AM   #3194
Francesca R
Girl
 
Francesca R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London EC1
Posts: 17,769
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Nonsense. There was no hard border between Ireland and NI before the SM and CU even existed. How was that managed if membership of the SM and CU is a prerequisite?
?

There was a customs border before the single market arose. And a military border during the troubles.
Francesca R is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 08:09 AM   #3195
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,021
It was managed because Ireland was not part of a large bloc with freedom of movement.
It is now, as are we (currently).

Since we decided to leave, that has changed things somewhat.

Or, to put it another way, it is 2018, not 1968.
Tolls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 08:10 AM   #3196
Wildy
Adelaidean
 
Wildy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 10,869
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Or, the hard border could be between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. The DUP won't be happy with that but the removal of parliamentary oversight over any deal has done away with their ability to do anything about it.
The only card they'd have left to play would be to support the opposition in a vote of no confidence. Chances of that happening are slim since Brexit is shaping up to be a massive own goal for the Tories.

Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Nonsense. There was no hard border between Ireland and NI before the SM and CU even existed. How was that managed if membership of the SM and CU is a prerequisite?
Because there was a hard border, specifically for goods. And with The Troubles it was made even worse since the UK was looking for contraband to stop Republican paramilitary groups. Hell even the BBC did a story on the history of the border.

Quote:
All it takes for us to be out of the SM and the CU and have no hard border is the agreement of the EU to allow it.
No. No it does not.
__________________
Wildy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 08:45 AM   #3197
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,469
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Nonsense. There was no hard border between Ireland and NI before the SM and CU even existed. How was that managed if membership of the SM and CU is a prerequisite?
It's bizarre counter-factual claims like this that undermine whatever slim reserves of credibility you may still have left.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 08:50 AM   #3198
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 5,270
Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
?

There was a customs border before the single market arose. And a military border during the troubles.

True. There was always a common travel area so people could move freely across the border without passports. During the troubles the military would request some means of verifying identity - but this didn't have to be by passport - and such checks were sometimes also made at places other than the border.
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 08:55 AM   #3199
Francesca R
Girl
 
Francesca R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London EC1
Posts: 17,769
Then your statement was wrong. There was a customs border. That falls under "hard" as I think almost everyone understands it (referring not to you or this forum but everyone "out there")

The reason why a new customs border is distinctly not wanted (by almost everyone) is because it would "sentimentally" echo the military one, and thereby threaten the peace accord.

In short there are good reasons why this is a significant problem not to be dismissed as tail wagging dog, still less non-existent tail wagging dog.
Francesca R is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 09:00 AM   #3200
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 5,270
Thank you. I admit I was wrong about there being no hard (customs) border between Ireland and NI between 1923 and 1993.
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:13 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.