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Tags internet issues , net neutrality

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Old 17th December 2017, 12:23 PM   #41
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Seems if your not trying to convince anyone you are going about it in the most labor intensive way possible.

Granted you are succeeding, but if success is leaving no footprints there are easier ways.
It is my labor to spend as I wish.
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Old 17th December 2017, 01:24 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Then contact your state Governor, or Senator, or the state Mayor. There's a lot of people to contact and lots of ways to "make noise", and add up to the mass-voice of disscontempt.
Otherwise, don't complain when these rules go into effect and you end up having to pay more to have a decent connection and access to all your services.
None of those people give a ****. I voiced my complaint to the FCC open comments about NN and the chairman made videos mocking what the American people told them.

The fact is that the people in power are going to do this, and they don't give a **** what we think. The American public, most corporations, and most of government has made it crystal clear what we want and the Republicans in charge simply don't give a ****.

If you want to pretend otherwise and blame the victims that's certainly your prerogative.
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Old 17th December 2017, 04:27 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Me not wanting to convert you to my ideas seems like an improvement from everyone else wanting to.
Perhaps that's a recognition that you never have to face the horrors of your ideas comng to fruition. It's easy to advocate for the despicable when you know you'll never have to face the consequences. How brave of you.
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Old 17th December 2017, 04:28 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is my labor to spend as I wish.
And you choose to mildly advocate for the blatantly immoral knowing you'll fail. Way to lean on into the strike zone and take one for the team.
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Old 17th December 2017, 05:00 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
And you choose to mildly advocate for the blatantly immoral knowing you'll fail. Way to lean on into the strike zone and take one for the team.
I don't think my views are immoral.
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Old 17th December 2017, 06:10 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't think my views are immoral.
Few of us do, and fewer still would publicize them if they did. But then again, having made it quite clear that you don't much care anyway, I'm surprised you take the trouble to comment. Maybe you need a more rewarding hobby, like needlepoint or spray painting railroad cars.
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Old 17th December 2017, 06:29 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't think my views are immoral.
An assessment that couldn't be more meaningless.
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Old 17th December 2017, 07:03 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
A post like this without an explanation of why you hold your position is pretty pointless.
All government is bad.
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Old 17th December 2017, 10:07 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I think people have a narrow grasp of what net neutrality actually encompasses. All we talk about is the bandwidth argument. I think you left out just a few possible choices btw

I don't think either solution (NN or not) is particularly good, and rather than take the "well at least we're doing something because something bad that actually hasn't really happened, could happen" route, I'd rather keep the government out as much as possible until an actual good idea is offered, if that can happen.

I don't think that's a strawman either because few people even understand net neutrality at all. They think they are getting what they want and I wonder if that is shortsighted, or flat out wrong.

The ramifications of net neutrality are complicated and I don't understand it all either. The bandwidth argument is just one aspect, but a great bone for the masses to fight over.

Try a search engine and learn both sides of the issue. I can't explain it here because I'm still figuring it out. I don't want to make a case for either side, and that is why my answer is no, I am not going to contact anyone.
Right. That's ok. It just means you fall on category 2, in the 2 categories I listed in the OP
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Old 17th December 2017, 10:10 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
None of those people give a ****. I voiced my complaint to the FCC open comments about NN and the chairman made videos mocking what the American people told them.

The fact is that the people in power are going to do this, and they don't give a **** what we think. The American public, most corporations, and most of government has made it crystal clear what we want and the Republicans in charge simply don't give a ****.

If you want to pretend otherwise and blame the victims that's certainly your prerogative.
No, I'm not "blaming the victims", but it seems that by your "no one in Government cares about us" statement, you have decided that in the vast world of politics, there's not a single human being who cares about these issues. And you would be wrong. There's a lot of people out there fighting for what's right. People like Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders and yes, even Al Franken, who despite having quitting, stated that he will not give up. I understand the current landscape of politics with Trump in the White House and a 100% Republican staff in the House and Senate can be very depressing. But that doesn't mean absolutely no one in the entire Politics Landscape gives a **** about anyone.

Anyway, you've voiced your personal view of the world and why you won't bother to move a finger. That's fine. I know there's a lot of people like you out there with that grim, defeated vision of the world. And yes, sorry to tell you, you are part of the problem with your "Meh, why bother doing anything? No one cares about us" vision of reality.
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Old 18th December 2017, 03:50 AM   #51
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Reality seems to back The_Animus up when he says that "The American public, most corporations, and most of government has made it crystal clear what we want and the Republicans in charge simply don't give a ****."

Quote:
And it marks a significant victory for Republicans who vowed to roll back the efforts of the prior administration, despite a recent survey showing that 83 percent of Americans including 3 out of 4 Republicans opposed the plan.
Washington Post

It's not something that The_Animus has "decided".
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Old 18th December 2017, 07:06 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I have no interest in convincing you.
Don't pick me out in particular. Bland, empty statements don't convince anyone. "Convince" is probably the wrong word, because no-one doubts you hold this position (ie we don't need convincing that you do). An explanation of why you hold the position would assist anyone who was interested in your viewpoint in understanding why you hold that view, and help others to assess whether or not their own view might be incorrect.

On the other hand, you may just be here to wind people up, in which just case carry on with the empty statements and see if it works for you.
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Last edited by MikeG; 18th December 2017 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 18th December 2017, 08:39 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
No, I'm not "blaming the victims", but it seems that by your "no one in Government cares about us" statement, you have decided that in the vast world of politics, there's not a single human being who cares about these issues. And you would be wrong. There's a lot of people out there fighting for what's right. People like Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders and yes, even Al Franken, who despite having quitting, stated that he will not give up. I understand the current landscape of politics with Trump in the White House and a 100% Republican staff in the House and Senate can be very depressing. But that doesn't mean absolutely no one in the entire Politics Landscape gives a **** about anyone.

Anyway, you've voiced your personal view of the world and why you won't bother to move a finger. That's fine. I know there's a lot of people like you out there with that grim, defeated vision of the world. And yes, sorry to tell you, you are part of the problem with your "Meh, why bother doing anything? No one cares about us" vision of reality.
You did victim blame and you did so again. Our fault if we end up with crap internet because we didn't shout uselessly into the wind.

Yes people like Elizabeth Warren, and Sanders care and have publicly come out in support of NN. As I said before, the American people, business, and most of government have already made it known they want NN. Has that stopped the repeal of NN? Will me sending a letter to people who already support NN accomplish anything? It's useless feel good preaching to the choir. Be sure and change your Facebook picture too. That'll show them!

You let us know how your letter writing goes.
I'll be doing the only thing left to do. Vote appropriately come 2018/2020 and encourage friends and family to get out and vote as well.
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Old 18th December 2017, 08:50 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
An explanation of why you hold the position would assist anyone who was interested in your viewpoint in understanding why you hold that view, and help others to assess whether or not their own view might be incorrect.
I have no interest in doing this. I like to say I am the yazidi of political thought.
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Old 18th December 2017, 11:20 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I have no interest in doing this. I like to say I am the yazidi of political thought.
Thought!? Ha ha! Good one!
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Old 18th December 2017, 11:34 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I have no interest in doing this.....
So why bother posting in the first place? I doubt anyone is interested in your view, or anyone else's for that matter. It's how you arrive at that view that counts.
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Old 18th December 2017, 12:25 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
So why bother posting in the first place? I doubt anyone is interested in your view, or anyone else's for that matter. It's how you arrive at that view that counts.
Getting on the record for future reference.
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Old 18th December 2017, 01:49 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Getting on the record for future reference.
When over you bright April shakes out her rain drenched hair?
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Old 18th December 2017, 04:10 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Getting on the record for future reference.
I've seen your "conventions", your ideas have no future. You all are incapable to translating ideas to policies.
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Old 18th December 2017, 06:50 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I've seen your "conventions", your ideas have no future. You all are incapable to translating ideas to policies.
Nearly every one there a better American than the people who have been president in my lifetime.
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Old 19th December 2017, 01:57 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Nearly every one there a better American than the people who have been president in my lifetime.
And yet, ineffectual.
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Old 19th December 2017, 08:49 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
And yet, ineffectual.
Which is better than being bad and effectual.
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Old 19th December 2017, 09:13 AM   #63
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Guys, Bob is declining to infect another thread with his nonsense, and you are all begging him to change his mind.

Let him go.
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Old 19th December 2017, 10:57 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
You did victim blame and you did so again.
Depends. Do you consider yourself (and thus, behave as) a victim? if so, then I guess yes. But that's exactly the quid of the problem.
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Old 20th December 2017, 06:16 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Cause I think you should, unless

1) You don't believe that net neutrality is in danger of disappearing

2) You don't believe losing net neutrality affects you at all
No point: My rep and senators have all taken public stances in support of Net Neutrality as soon as that clown Ajai declared his intention to end it. In addition, my state is joining the lawsuit to stop it's end.
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Old 20th December 2017, 07:14 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
No point: My rep and senators have all taken public stances in support of Net Neutrality as soon as that clown Ajai declared his intention to end it. In addition, my state is joining the lawsuit to stop it's end.
Yeah, that is a good thing. I just hope the rest of the states will join the lawsuit. It is really insulting how the FCC made this decision, completely ignoring the polls which show that most Americans, both Republicans and Democrats, oppose the decision. It is even more insulting how Ajit Pai literally treats us as if we were a bunch of idiots, making those crappy videos of him trying to pass out as just another kewl geeky dude who loves the internet and memes lol roflmao lolz . What a *********** dickhead.

By the way, did you see this? This really made my day
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Old 24th December 2017, 07:44 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Which is better than being bad and effectual.
How would you know?
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Old 24th December 2017, 10:40 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
How would you know?
For that matter, why would one care? If you're ineffectual it doesn't matter whether you're bad, good, right or wrong. The only thing that ends up mattering is whether one feels good about whatever it is he believes, but a fool believes that as much as a wise man does.

Somehow I picture a car that is bedecked with bumper stickers, some faded to illegibility, some undecipherably obscure, but all really special. We smile putting them on. That will show them!
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Old 16th May 2018, 12:46 PM   #69
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The US Senate has just voted in FAVOR of rolling back the Net Neutrality rollback
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Old 16th May 2018, 09:26 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
The US Senate has just voted in FAVOR of rolling back the Net Neutrality rollback
It's excellent news, however saddening it is to see the bulk of the Republicans favoring special interests over the general public, yet again. There's apparently a lot of pessimism about what the House will do, unfortunately, but that does remain to be seen. Hopefully, we'll have the surprising sight of enough Republicans acting in the interest of the people to repeal the change.
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Old 12th June 2018, 01:12 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
It's excellent news, however saddening it is to see the bulk of the Republicans favoring special interests over the general public, yet again. There's apparently a lot of pessimism about what the House will do, unfortunately, but that does remain to be seen. Hopefully, we'll have the surprising sight of enough Republicans acting in the interest of the people to repeal the change.
And... yup.

Net neutrality's repealed now. The rollback died in the House.
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Old 12th June 2018, 06:53 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by paulhutch View Post
Actually I tried to contact one last week that wasn't my specific congress person and they would not accept electronic contact except from their constituents (had to provide your zip code to get through). Which frankly makes sense he should not care what I think only what his constituents think. I could have snail mailed but he would rightly through it away and if I called I assume the office staff would not be interested.
One wonders if he only accepts political donations from his constituents, too. And if not, why not.
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Old 12th June 2018, 09:43 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
2) You don't believe losing net neutrality affects you at all
Well I am not in the US so it doesn't.

I am in the EU which has had a "digital single market" rule since two years ago that includes fairly strong prohibition against differentially slowing down service. But I might sometime be back outside the EU and the UK doesn't have the same, beyond a minimum speed (which is quite low at 10 megabits). But the UK had already achieved the trick of separating the wire (infrastructure) from the data carriers and making the former a utility, so the UK already had a lot of carrier competition which (in my view) renders network neutrality laws unnecessary, and actually unhelpful.

There is no network neutrality in mobile data services here, and I think that infrastructure sharing is also voluntary. I'm not aware of a critical mass of consumer complaints about this. To the extent that it influences buying choice an argument could be made that it is superior

(Reinstatement of roaming charges by UK providers outside the EU would be a bummer, but it's far from a foregone conclusion that this will happen)

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Old 12th June 2018, 09:49 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
so the UK already had a lot of carrier competition which (in my view) renders network neutrality laws unnecessary, and actually unhelpful.
It'd be nice if it were the same in the US... but unfortunately, it's really, really not. Lots of large areas only really have one or two viable competitors, and smaller ones tend to be afraid of getting crushed if they try to expand into them.
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Old 13th June 2018, 07:15 AM   #75
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It's not just a few viable competitors, large swathes of the US have been formally divided up between the largest companies to ensure they aren't competing with each other at all. Live in the San Luis Valley? You get Comcast. Prefer Time Warner? Move somewhere that they'll provide service. It seems wide open for smaller competitors to nibble their way in, but so far that's happened only on a very small scale or with the assistance of a much larger company (Viaero with Verizon).
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Old 13th June 2018, 07:46 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
It's not just a few viable competitors, large swathes of the US have been formally divided up between the largest companies to ensure they aren't competing with each other at all. Live in the San Luis Valley? You get Comcast. Prefer Time Warner? Move somewhere that they'll provide service. It seems wide open for smaller competitors to nibble their way in, but so far that's happened only on a very small scale or with the assistance of a much larger company (Viaero with Verizon).
Yeah. In short, the "Free Market" cannot meaningfully apply to that market, as things stand, which makes the justification by Pai all the more absurd.
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Old 13th June 2018, 08:51 AM   #77
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"Free market" doesn't really apply to internet data taken as a whole because it is much closer to being a natural monopoly (average cost of supply falls as supply increases). But specifically it is the fixed cost of the infrastructure that makes it that way, like it does for stuff like electricity, and even to an extent gas.

Over many years of discussing this here I have accepted that if (for whatever reason) the US will not separate transmission infrastructure from internet data service, such that the combined thing is an effective natural monopoly, then it should be treated as a utility which should mean at least a minimum speed for all traffic if not full neutrality.

If (as in many countries) infrastructure is separated and "unbundling" (sharing) it is made mandatory, then there are much lower barriers to competitive entry of data service providers. In that case they tend to provide neutrality for those who want it and speed tiered by content for those who don't. Although "labelling" in this regard is not exactly clear. (I suspect many people have little idea if their mobile data is network neutral or not)

In the UK (at least) I think there is emerging but not "hard" regulation on sharing of fibre infrastructure (much of which is built by private operators) right now.

Last edited by Francesca R; 13th June 2018 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 13th June 2018, 02:44 PM   #78
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Where I live the issue is made somewhat more complex by the fact that there is no cable service at all. Our local phone company's long distance service is unbundled, and I think the internet carrying is as well, but there is no financial incentive for competition, since the lines are rural and ordinary DSL is difficult and requires a special modem. Similarly, though there was a rush when long distance service was first unbundled, the independent contractors seem to have disappeared, and the best deal comes from the phone company anyway. I have DSL, but it's slow, and if I were a few hundred feet further from the trunk line, it probably wouldn't work at all.

The issue of natural monopolies is a nasty one at times, and strange at times too. There's no cable TV service here because population density is too low for it to pay but nowadays people who want that kind of service can get satellite service. But of course there's no cable internet. Back in the 80's when I lived in a similarly small town that had no cable service, a group of local leaders proposed setting up a community antenna (we had a big mountain). The State of Connecticut refused to allow this, because according to them, the natural monopoly right to run cable was already given to the company that refused to run cable! There was, at least at the time, no way around this. At least for cable companies, though the right to grant service was a monopoly, there was no rule that said such service must be provided.
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Old 13th June 2018, 04:39 PM   #79
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Now I live in a district where our rep would crawl on his hands and knees over broken glass just to piss in Turmp's diet soda (of course from the Steele Dossier, he may like that so the analogy may need some work). I don't get the feeling he needs my encouragement to destroy anything Trump is for.
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Old 13th June 2018, 04:45 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Now I live in a district where our rep would crawl on his hands and knees over broken glass just to piss in Turmp's diet soda (of course from the Steele Dossier, he may like that so the analogy may need some work). I don't get the feeling he needs my encouragement to destroy anything Trump is for.
Indeed, here in Vermont, it's pretty much preaching to the choir. Even our Republican Governor falls far short of the Trump fan club.
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