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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , donald trump , Kim Jong-un , US-North Korea relations

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Old 13th June 2018, 06:34 AM   #1481
Jerrymander
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
It might help you if you can keep Iran and NK seperate, they way they are dealt with couldnít be more different.
Yes, the latter can be trusted with vague promises.
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Old 13th June 2018, 06:43 AM   #1482
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Look, your side wonít even give him the credit for getting this far.
How far has he got? It's really hard to tell. NK have wanted a meeting such as that for years. It's always been turned down because NK refuse to give any concessions. Either Trump has just made a great start on a lasting peace process and will be rightly remembered for it, or, KJU just got lots of easy propaganda and some concessions in return for nothing at all and this meeting will help him to prop up his brutal regime even longer.

We won't know which until NK actually does something tangible, and that's months away most likely.

Quote:
Everyone knows very well this is a long shot. But your side isnít involved, youíre doing your level best to sink it. This certainly will be brought up and hammered away on come election time.
I don't HAVE a side, I'm not in the US. I'm certainly not trying to sink efforts for peace in Korea.

I would say that human rights abuses in North Korea will need to be addressed soon in the next rounds of talks.

Originally Posted by NYTimes
Mr. Kim rules with extreme brutality, making his nation among the worst human rights violators in the world.

In North Korea, these crimes ďentail extermination, murder, enslavement, torture, imprisonment, rape, forced abortions and other sexual violence, persecution on political, religious, racial and gender grounds, the forcible transfer of populations, the enforced disappearance of persons and the inhumane act of knowingly causing prolonged starvation,Ē concluded a 2014 United Nations report that examined North Korea.

Here are some of the atrocities that have happened there.

A network of prison gulags

[...]

People accused of political crimes are arrested and sentenced to prison camps without trials, while their families are often kept in the dark about their whereabouts. Up to 120,000 inmates were in the countryís four major political prisons in 2014 and were subjected to gruesome conditions.

Prisoners are starved, forced to work, tortured and raped. Reproductive rights are denied through forced abortions and infanticide. Some are executed ó sometimes in public. Hundreds of thousands of political prisoners have died in the camps over the past 50 years, the United Nations report found.

[...]
In the first six years as leader, he has ordered the executions of at least 340 people, according to the Institute for National Security Strategy, a think tank arm of the National Intelligence Service.

In 2016, Kim Yong-jin, the deputy premier for education, was killed in front of a firing squad after showing ďdisrespectful postureĒ in a meeting. Hyon Yong-chol, a general over the armed forces, fell asleep in a meeting. He was executed with an antiaircraft gun.

[...]

ĎAn all-encompassing indoctrination machineí
Independent thought is bred out and propaganda glorifying the state is plentiful, the report said, as is propaganda intended to ďincite nationalistic hatred toward official enemiesĒ like Japan and the United States.

[...]

ĎDeliberate starvationí as a play for power
Two million to three million people were believed to have died during an extended famine in North Korea in the 1990s,
At the time, North Korea used food as a tool to enforce political loyalty, prioritizing its distribution based on who was most useful to the nationís political system, the United Nations report stated.

More recently, the inmate population in North Koreaís political prison camps has been culled through ďdeliberate starvation,Ē the report found, adding that suspects are also starved ďto increase the pressure on them to confess and to incriminate other persons.Ē
the article this comes from is a lot longer, I'd recommend reading it.

That's the person Trump just sat down with. He's run North Korea with an iron rod, just how his father did for the past 6 years, he tortures and kills his political opponents, oppresses his people and has single mindedly chased having nuclear missiles above all else since he came to power.

The joint statement is meaningless unless and until North Korea shows that it has changed and actually takes action this time.

When there is action I will give Trump plenty of credit. Until then, notsomuch.
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Old 13th June 2018, 06:47 AM   #1483
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
When there is action I will give Trump plenty of credit. Until then, notsomuch.
And until then, we should properly criticize him for making concessions in return for vague promises.
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Old 13th June 2018, 06:56 AM   #1484
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You need to see this from Trump's perspective. He got fantastic viewing figures for his show "Trump meets the Korean hostages", probably the best ever late night/early morning figures. So Korea is obviously a hot topic at the moment.

I haven't seen anyone yet talk about the viewing figures from the summit and without those we really can't tell if Trump did good or not.
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Old 13th June 2018, 07:07 AM   #1485
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You need to see this from Trump's perspective.
No, I don't.
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Old 13th June 2018, 07:10 AM   #1486
Aridas
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The problem with diplomacy with NK is that when it was done by clinton and W they did not act in good faith. So why would we expect any change in that?

How do you engage in diplomacy with someone who will not negotiate in good faith?
Cautiously. Things can change, after all, and it's hardly a bad thing to be available to take advantage of opportunities, should they arise.

Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
A possible denuclearized North Korea.

A possible long lasting peace in the region.
Would be nice. These things have been on the table for a long time, though, with NK making the cost for them rather unacceptable. SK being under Kim's rule, for example.

Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The US gave up nothing.
Err... yes it did.

Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
We can have military exercises reinstated in weeks.
Sure. That's one of the more reversible of the things that were given up, after all.

Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The Sanctions are still in place. It's like giving away a license plate cover with a new car purchase.
As has been linked to a couple times already, China, the country that is most key to the sanctions working, seems to be trying to take it as a sign that the sanctions will be/are no longer in effect. So this is a really, really shaky claim to make.


Originally Posted by dellarte View Post
The unstoppable force meets an immovable object.
Unstoppable? Are you talking about China? It certainly couldn't be Trump.
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Last edited by Aridas; 13th June 2018 at 07:11 AM.
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Old 13th June 2018, 07:24 AM   #1487
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Interesting.

I wonder how people are going to take it - doesn't this pretty much hose NK's whole founding myth? I thought convincing people a foreign invasion was imminent was a big part of the Kim family's strategy for staying in power.
Comparing it with the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, for all the nice words about peace and whatnot the North Koreans will eventually act as if nothing has changed.

I would not be surprised if they came up with some narrative that the deceitful Americans tried to lure the North Koreans into give up their nuclear weapons and then attack them, only for their sinister imperialist plot to be foiled by the decisive and resolute leadership of the Supreme Leader.
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Last edited by Arcade22; 13th June 2018 at 07:26 AM.
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Old 13th June 2018, 07:28 AM   #1488
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The US gave up nothing.
Except its dignity of course.

Quote:
“I notice some of the people are saying the president has agreed to meet. He has given up so much. I gave up nothing.”

A presidential-level meeting with a rogue regime is generally reserved for the end of a process. With a summit at the front end, Trump conferred legitimacy and status on a leader regarded as one of the world’s worst tyrants. Trump may believe that is unimportant, but most foreign policy experts view it as a significant concession.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...th-korea-deal/

Bah! Foreign policy experts... what the hell do they know?! Nothing! Trump knows foreign policy better than any expert, just like he knows everything better than anyone ever.
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Last edited by Arcade22; 13th June 2018 at 07:37 AM.
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Old 13th June 2018, 07:42 AM   #1489
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https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...37823469735936

Quote:
[...]There is no longer a Nuclear Threat from North Korea.[...]
Good. Glad that's sorted.
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Old 13th June 2018, 07:57 AM   #1490
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Well if the North Koreans are no longer a nuclear threat then surely the sanctions should be lifted now, right? Yes they should.
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Old 13th June 2018, 07:58 AM   #1491
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post

That's the person Trump just sat down with. He's run North Korea with an iron rod, just how his father did for the past 6 years, he tortures and kills his political opponents, oppresses his people and has single mindedly chased having nuclear missiles above all else since he came to power.

The joint statement is meaningless unless and until North Korea shows that it has changed and actually takes action this time.

When there is action I will give Trump plenty of credit. Until then, notsomuch.
Everyone knows what this turd is about. I would have been perfectly fine with bombing but here you have the beginnings of diplomacy and the left can only cry about it. Itís nothing but politics for the left.
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Old 13th June 2018, 07:59 AM   #1492
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
Yes, the latter can be trusted with vague promises.
Bomb them correct?
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Old 13th June 2018, 08:01 AM   #1493
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
"The left" would have actually done something. All Trump is doing is feeding ******** to his willing sycophants.
Lol!!!

Yes, please tell us what the left would have done, more importantly why didnít they do it when they had the chance.
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Old 13th June 2018, 08:02 AM   #1494
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
The one positive result I can see from all this is that Trump is no longer threatening to launch a pre-emptive nuclear attack on North Korea, which means that about 20 million people on the Korean peninsula can sleep a little easier in their beds.
Lol

Iím sure youíd be thanking Kim for that. Canít make this stuff up folks!
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Old 13th June 2018, 08:03 AM   #1495
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Trump can trade the cow for beans because he and his followers will go to their grave convinced that they are magic beans.


The rest of us are stuck in reality where Trump traded the cow for 3 ordinary beans.


>>

"All right, mother," said Donald, "it's market-day today. I'll go into town and sell Bessy."

So Jack took the cow's halter in his hand, walked through the garden gate and headed off toward town. He hadn't gone far when he met a funny-looking, old man who said to him, "Good morning, Donald."

"Good morning to you," said Donald, amazed how the little, old man knew his name, without figuring out that his shirt announced his name.

"Where are you off to this fine morning?" asked the man.

"I'm going to market to sell our cow, Bessy."

"Well what a helpful son you are!" exclaimed the man, "I have a deal for such a good boy like you." and held out his hand to show...

"Beans!!!" shouted Donald, looking extremely excited.

"Three ordinary bean seeds to be exact" said the man and before he could mention that in addition he would pay $1000 because beans are not worth anything.....

"Really?" said Donald, "and you're quite sure they're magical?"

"Magical? Where did you get that idea? These are just plain beans. There is no such thing as magic beans. You do know that right?"

"Three MAGIC BEANS!!" Donald shouted!! "I am the best negotiator ever!!"

"Well no. These are simple...."

Donald snatched the beans, left the cow behind, and ran giddily home....well maybe a slight jog for a couple feet. Bone spurs, you know.

"Back already, Donald?" asked his mother; "I see you haven't got Old Bess -- you've sold her so quickly. How much did you get for her?"

Donald smiled and reached into his pocket, "Just look at these beans, mother; they're magical, plant them over-night and----"

And they starved to death that winter, with Donald convinced the whole time that a giant beanstalk was going to sprout up any second.

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Old 13th June 2018, 08:05 AM   #1496
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
When Kim was testing nuclear missiles. "Fire and fury", remember?

And yes, I did think there was a non zero chance that he would be crazy enough to do it. There still is, come to that, but the likelihood has lessened.
Because Kim was threatening? Any president would have given that same warning. Iím amazed this has to be explained but even more amazed that you blame Trump over it.
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Old 13th June 2018, 08:08 AM   #1497
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Threads on ISF have no ability to sink it.
Yeah I know I have to spell it out. The left is doing their level best.
Quote:
But on the other hand, after the nuclear deal with Iran, when GOP senators threw a hissy fit and wrote to Iran warning them of war, that could have actually sunk the deal. I'm going to go way out on a limb here and assume that you weren't outraged by that letter. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Iím going to say that that same kind of diplomacy that your side used to write that Iran agreement is the same kind of diplomacy that failed with NK time after time. Your side just isnít good at creating peace. Mostly because it is led by weak wimpy men.
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Old 13th June 2018, 09:03 AM   #1498
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Yeah I know I have to spell it out. The left is doing their level best.

Iím going to say that that same kind of diplomacy that your side used to write that Iran agreement is the same kind of diplomacy that failed with NK time after time. Your side just isnít good at creating peace. Mostly because it is led by weak wimpy men.
The "left" isn't trying to sink the deal, people are pointing out that other than vague promises to do something in the future after further talks, that nothing has changed and that we should not be treating this as the greatest feat of diplomacy ever. This is a first step. A potentially significant one, but only a first step, and given the DPRK's track record one that is unlikely to yield any long lasting gains.

You mean the Iran Agreement where Iran gave up most of its refining capability and all its refined fuel, agreed to outside verification processes and monitoring? The one that 45 withdrew from for no better reason than his predessor's name was on it, despite all the other parties saying it was working and his own Defence Secretary telling him it was working and that the US should stay in? That one?

And what have you got in terms of concrete concessions from the DPRK? An agreement to talk at a future time about some things?

Oh, you did agree to cancel this year's Drills with your allies without consulting with said allies, but hey, the South Koreans don't deserve to be treated as valued allies or trading partners despite nearly 70 years of support to the US.
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Old 13th June 2018, 09:12 AM   #1499
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Bomb them correct?
No, get detailed promises. Like allowing weapons inspectors.
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Old 13th June 2018, 09:20 AM   #1500
Aridas
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Lol

Iím sure youíd be thanking Kim for that.


Originally Posted by logger View Post
Canít make this stuff up folks!
You strive to keep doing the impossible, eh?
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Old 13th June 2018, 09:22 AM   #1501
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
No, get detailed promises. Like allowing weapons inspectors.
And you think thatís not going to happen?
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Old 13th June 2018, 09:24 AM   #1502
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This came from a Doug Parsons on Facebook, so I can't take credit. I also haven't fact checked it.

Quote:
.
History Lesson
---------------------
1985: North Korea signs Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty
1992: North Korea signs historic agreement to halt nuclear program!
1994: North Korea signs historic agreement to halt nuclear program!
1999: North Korea signs historic agreement to end missile tests
2000: North Korea signs historic agreement to reunify Korea! Nobel Peace Prize is awarded
2005: North Korea declares support for "denuclearization" of Korean peninsula
2005: North Korea signs historic agreement to halt nuclear program and "denuclearize"!
2006: North Korea declares support for "denuclearization" of Korean peninsula
2006: North Korea again support for "denuclearization" of Korean peninsula
2007: North Korea signs historic agreement to halt nuclear program!
2007: N & S Korea sign agreement on reunification
2010: North Korea commits to ending Korean War
2010: North Korea announces commitment to "denuclearize"
2010: North Korea again announces commitment to "denuclearize"
2011: North Korea announces plan to halt nuclear and missile tests
2012: North Korea announces halt to nuclear program
2015: North Korea offers to halt nuclear tests
2016: North Korea again announces support for "denuclearization"
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Old 13th June 2018, 09:29 AM   #1503
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
The "left" isn't trying to sink the deal, people are pointing out that other than vague promises to do something in the future after further talks, that nothing has changed and that we should not be treating this as the greatest feat of diplomacy ever. This is a first step. A potentially significant one, but only a first step, and given the DPRK's track record one that is unlikely to yield any long lasting gains.
Agreed
Quote:
And what have you got in terms of concrete concessions from the DPRK? An agreement to talk at a future time about some things?
Like you said, itís in the initial stages. Why bitch about it now?
Quote:
Oh, you did agree to cancel this year's Drills with your allies without consulting with said allies, but hey, the South Koreans don't deserve to be treated as valued allies or trading partners despite nearly 70 years of support to the US.
And they could be started back up tomorrow possibly..... those?
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Old 13th June 2018, 09:30 AM   #1504
Aridas
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
This came from a Doug Parsons on Facebook, so I can't take credit. I also haven't fact checked it.



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But this time is different because Trump's doing what all those pansies on the left didn't do! Build Trump branded properties that will make NK's tourist industry yuge!
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Old 13th June 2018, 09:30 AM   #1505
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
This came from a Doug Parsons on Facebook, so I can't take credit. I also haven't fact checked it.



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Yes, yes we know itís all a waste of time. Bomb them correct?
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Old 13th June 2018, 09:30 AM   #1506
Jerrymander
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
And you think thatís not going to happen?
To qoute you, "lol".
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Old 13th June 2018, 09:33 AM   #1507
Aridas
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Yes, yes we know itís all a waste of time. Bomb them correct?
You do the impossible so well!
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Old 13th June 2018, 09:34 AM   #1508
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
But this time is different because Trump's doing what all those pansies on the left didn't do! Build Trump branded properties that will make NK's tourist industry yuge!
It’s always telling when it gets to this point. Trump could appoint Obama to lead from behind. Trump could appoint Hillary to bomb them, since her predator husband was the one to get them started in this whole mess.

Think I’d rather let someone new try.
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Old 13th June 2018, 09:47 AM   #1509
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Agreed
If you believe it's unlikely to yield positive results, why make such a big deal out of it?

Quote:
Like you said, itís in the initial stages. Why bitch about it now?
Why boast about them now?

It's like declaring you've got the Stanley Cup wrapped up after winning the puck drop in Game 1 of the Season....


Quote:
And they could be started back up tomorrow possibly..... those?
Says the person whose likely never planned anything more complicated than a family dinner.

Logistics for large scale events (like say multi-national military drills) once cancelled can't just be spun up again on short notice. Picture the shenanigans that you may have undergone if you cancelled a pick up at your mill for shipment of lumber. The shipper is going to reallocate those trucks to other jobs at a minimum. You can't just call him up a couple of days later and tell him that the shipment's ready for him to pick up and expect that it'll happen the way it always had before.
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Old 13th June 2018, 09:50 AM   #1510
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Because Kim was threatening? Any president would have given that same warning. Iím amazed this has to be explained but even more amazed that you blame Trump over it.
But your boy is the only one that sounded like a petulant child while doing so. So you guys got that going for you.

Toddler in chief! Don't make him mad
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Old 13th June 2018, 09:53 AM   #1511
W.D.Clinger
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Your side just isnít good at creating peace. Mostly because it is led by weak wimpy men.
I've been trying to figure out what logger meant by that last sentence.

I think he's saying Donald Trump is logger's idea of a strong, manly man.

Similarly, Kim Jong Un appears to be Donald Trump's idea of a trustworthy and very talented strongman.
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Old 13th June 2018, 09:59 AM   #1512
varwoche
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Iím going to say that that same kind of diplomacy that your side used to write that Iran agreement is the same kind of diplomacy that failed with NK time after time. Your side just isnít good at creating peace. Mostly because it is led by weak wimpy men.
Unlike you, I'm not impressed at all by his tiny little hands.
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Old 13th June 2018, 10:05 AM   #1513
plague311
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Yes, yes we know it’s all a waste of time. Bomb them correct?
Have I even implied anything close to that? No. I haven't, so quit putting words in my mouth. You and your hyperbole on everything can kick rocks.

Bombing them isn't the answer. The point of it was that just because he (KJU) says something doesn't mean he'll follow through. The last 30 years of history points towards this not meaning a damn thing.
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Old 13th June 2018, 10:06 AM   #1514
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Itís always telling when it gets to this point. Trump could appoint Obama to lead from behind. Trump could appoint Hillary to bomb them, since her predator husband was the one to get them started in this whole mess.

Think Iíd rather let someone new try.
You got into this mess because that notorious leftist Harry Truman didn't let Dugout Doug use nukes on them in the first place. The DPRK hasn't exactly been open to negotiations since it drove back the capitalist running dogs with some assistance from it Chinese brothers.
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Old 13th June 2018, 10:13 AM   #1515
RolandRat
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Yes, yes we know itís all a waste of time. Bomb them correct?
You seem to be under the impression that there is only two options open, what Trump has just done or bomb them.
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Old 13th June 2018, 10:16 AM   #1516
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
And until then, we should properly criticize him for making concessions in return for vague promises.
But, but condos. On the beaches!

Thatís why youíre not a visionary world leader who doesnít prepare and sizes people up in the first minute.
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Old 13th June 2018, 10:16 AM   #1517
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Per Trump, North Korea is no longer a nuclear threat.

Do his supporters really believe that, or is it a question of taking him seriously but not literally?

Also the media is Public Enemy No. 1. Well, them and Canada.

As far as I can tell the media are trying quite conscientiously to give credit where credit is due. But it's also news when the U.S. agrees to call off joint long-standing military exercises, news which was shared with China before Trump even said it publicly.

The guy trashes democracies and democratic institutions and has no end of praise for dictatorships. I don't understand how that doesn't cause just the teensiest bit of unease among his supporters.
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Old 13th June 2018, 10:25 AM   #1518
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Because his supporters are hateful : idiots.
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Old 13th June 2018, 10:42 AM   #1519
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Here's a question for anybody saying that this is an achievement - what has North Korea promised or done that they hadn't promised or done before the meeting?
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Old 13th June 2018, 10:43 AM   #1520
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North Korea most dangerous place in the world to be a Christian

But that was yesterday. It's probably changed by now.
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