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Old 7th April 2018, 07:15 PM   #41
Elagabalus
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
There's a number (I don't know it qualifies as "a lot" or whatever) of people on the internet who are or claim to be transwomen, who are real jerks and some say some really outrageously nutty things. They seem to operate in cliques and like dog-piling people over nothing. I'm not sure what all's going on there, but I guess it's safe to say they're probably psychologically broken in some way, and it results in attention-seeking, dramatic behavior.
Be sure to check out pharyngula blog started by the Lord God Peezus himself. I'm sure they'll be some guest blogger on there who's a lesbian and ultra-feminist who doesn't believe that transgenderism is actually a "thing". Or maybe that's on Butterflies and Wheels blog? I get those two mixed up sometimes.
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Old 7th April 2018, 07:19 PM   #42
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Myers would never allow such a thing and Benson was kicked off FtB for being a TERF.
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Old 7th April 2018, 07:20 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm looking for the screen grab of the post where the man in a dress claiming to be a lesbian described his date freaking out when she discovered he had a penis, but so far I can't find it. I saw it twice yesterday but people may be wary of sharing it if they think it might be faked.
Every discussion is a battle against such misunderstandings. If we can just accept the socially constructed nature of these concepts and that our lables do not define real fixed in stone real-world-objects, or Platanic ideal forms, things would be a lot better. The person with male genetalia identifying as a woman and lesbian is ignoring this and knowingly playing a different language game than the surprised party.
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Old 7th April 2018, 07:23 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Be sure to check out pharyngula blog started by the Lord God Peezus himself. I'm sure they'll be some guest blogger on there who's a lesbian and ultra-feminist who doesn't believe that transgenderism is actually a "thing". Or maybe that's on Butterflies and Wheels blog? I get those two mixed up sometimes.
I'm sure there are.

Honestly, I try to stay away from leftwing internet circles that aren't primarily focused on economics or local politics, because it's such a minefield of people looking for a fight and hoping someone says something that can be attacked furiously. I mean, the whole internet has that problem to some degree, but the "identity politics" left is the worst (outside of the alt-right, I'd assume, but I've never been tempted to put in my 2 cents with them, or even lurk, for that matter.)
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Old 7th April 2018, 07:25 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Myers would never allow such a thing and Benson was kicked off FtB for being a TERF.
They went cannibal on Benson? Makes you wonder if "peak id-pol" might be a thing overall.
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Old 7th April 2018, 07:31 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'm sure there are.

Honestly, I try to stay away from leftwing internet circles that aren't primarily focused on economics or local politics, because it's such a minefield of people looking for a fight and hoping someone says something that can be attacked furiously. I mean, the whole internet has that problem to some degree, but the "identity politics" left is the worst (outside of the alt-right, I'd assume, but I've never been tempted to put in my 2 cents with them, or even lurk, for that matter.)
It's not really a leftwing thing. It's more like the soft white underbelly of the skeptic/rationalist movement that nobody wants to talk about (like that crazy uncle/aunt in the family) because they're all bat crap crazy.
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Old 7th April 2018, 07:40 PM   #47
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Yep. FtB went full intersectional, terfed Benson, then a bunch of bloggers split off and formed THe Orbit, which rapidly decayed.

Oh, A+ luminary Great American Satan has a spot over at FtB
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Old 7th April 2018, 07:45 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Yep. FtB went full intersectional, terfed Benson, then a bunch of bloggers split off and formed THe Orbit, which rapidly decayed.

Nice one!
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Old 7th April 2018, 07:45 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
It's not really a leftwing thing. It's more like the soft white underbelly of the skeptic/rationalist movement that nobody wants to talk about (like that crazy uncle/aunt in the family) because they're all bat crap crazy.
Ha.
I've see it on facebook in non-skeptic/atheist/rationalist circles, too. A lot of the people who are like that are pagan, unitarian universalist and left-christian.

And then, of course, Richard Spencer is an atheist, and he's buddies with the religious KKK and wanna-be "respectable" religious neoconfederate crowd.

Sigh.
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Last edited by kellyb; 7th April 2018 at 07:56 PM.
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Old 7th April 2018, 07:49 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
There's a number (I don't know it qualifies as "a lot" or whatever) of people on the internet who are or claim to be transwomen, who are real jerks and some say some really outrageously nutty things. They seem to operate in cliques and like dog-piling people over nothing. I'm not sure what all's going on there, but I guess it's safe to say they're probably psychologically broken in some way, and it results in attention-seeking, dramatic behavior.
So in other words, they just behave like people generally do on the internet?
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Old 7th April 2018, 07:55 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
So in other words, they just behave like people generally do on the internet?
Maybe. I've never encountered it before with that exact MO and to such and extreme, and I've been on the net since 2003, but maybe it is "everywhere" and I've just never noticed it before?
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Old 7th April 2018, 08:03 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Maybe. I've never encountered it before with that exact MO and to such and extreme, and I've been on the net since 2003, but maybe it is "everywhere" and I've just never noticed it before?
I don't know, you may be correct. I'm just saying that people forming cliques and taking out their personal issues on others is not exactly a new internet thing.

It's hardly unique to the trans (fake or otherwise) community.
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Old 7th April 2018, 08:15 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
I don't know, you may be correct. I'm just saying that people forming cliques and taking out their personal issues on others is not exactly a new internet thing.

It's hardly unique to the trans (fake or otherwise) community.
I've only seen this specific thing on facebook, and pretty recently, where you're commenting on a friend's wall like always, and out of the blue over the course of 30 minutes 5 transwomen show up, frothing at the mouth with rage over some pretty benign position on a topic.
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Old 7th April 2018, 08:22 PM   #54
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https://www.facebook.com/ABCCOMEDY/v...9599247426488/

This little video is relevant for this thread.
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Old 7th April 2018, 08:30 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I've only seen this specific thing on facebook, and pretty recently, where you're commenting on a friend's wall like always, and out of the blue over the course of 30 minutes 5 transwomen show up, frothing at the mouth with rage over some pretty benign position on a topic.
I'm not on facebook, so I honestly don't know. But that does sound like something out of the ordinary though. I wonder what brought it on?

Last edited by Lambchops; 7th April 2018 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 7th April 2018, 08:38 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
https://www.facebook.com/ABCCOMEDY/v...9599247426488/

This little video is relevant for this thread.
I love that video. The narrator seems really nice, and she's absolutely right about respecting people's dignity. I disagree with her about the difference between dogs and cats being purely semantic, tho.
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Old 7th April 2018, 08:43 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I love that video. The narrator seems really nice, and she's absolutely right about respecting people's dignity. I disagree with her about the difference between dogs and cats being purely semantic, tho.
Cats are objectively better than dogs. I'm just saying.
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Old 7th April 2018, 08:44 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Cats are objecively better than dogs. I'm just saying.
Wash your mouth out with soap! Dogs rule and cats drool!
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Old 7th April 2018, 08:49 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Wash your mouth out with soap! Dogs rule and cats drool!
That's crazy talk.
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Old 7th April 2018, 08:51 PM   #60
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Both cats and dogs have their uses..in broths, stews...bbq....
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Old 7th April 2018, 08:56 PM   #61
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I prefer beef. Bovine flesh. Or bacon.
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Old 8th April 2018, 04:51 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
I don't know, you may be correct. I'm just saying that people forming cliques and taking out their personal issues on others is not exactly a new internet thing.

It's hardly unique to the trans (fake or otherwise) community.

If this was just a bunch of people being jerks on the internet it wouldn't even be worth a mention. But these jerks are organised in the real world. They've persuaded politicians and authorities that they are the oppressed, vulnerable victims who are always in the right, and anyone who questions their agenda is a "hater".

This example is a bit extreme, in fact I think they've jumped the shark, but it's not untypical of the sort of thing that is now informing public debate on the topic - if you can call it debate, when one side insists that "there is no debate" and has meetings called to allow women to talk about the issues closed down amid accusations of transphobia and hate speech.

https://edinburghath.tumblr.com/post...alth-manifesto

Their agenda is being written into public policy. Children are being harmed, women are losing their designated female-only spaces, and a freaking man is favourite to win the gold medal in the women's weightlifting at the Commonweath Games.

All on account of teh feelz, man.
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Old 8th April 2018, 09:23 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's a huge subject and I'm not sure I want to get into a long discussion of it on the forum.

Since nobody can change what actual sex they are, everyone has to find the best way of living with the personality they have. However, actual body modification to mimic the characteristics of the opposite sex is a huge undertaking with a lot of downsides that aren't usually talked about. I don't think this is something that children should be encouraged to pursue when studies done before such encouragement was mandatory show that 80% to 90% of "non gender conforming" children grow out of it and become contented adults of the sex they were born as - although often same-sex-attracted.

Adults, of course, are free to do what they like to their own bodies, from the clothes and make-up they wear to the hormones they take or the cosmetic surgery they have. However, when the desires of a small number of (often vocal and aggressive) men who want to occupy female-designated spaces comes up against the right of actual women to have the female-designated spaces their grandmothers fought for, I'm on the side of the actual women.

I don't see any particular reason to celebrate autogynaephilia, any more than we would celebrate a rubber fetish or a shoe fetish. If men who exhibit that particular paraphilia want to get on with it without harming anyone else or infringing on anyone else's rights, that's fine, but why would I celebrate it? The problem is that there is a cohort of these men currently making extremely strident demands that they should be allowed to infringe women's rights, and they have succeeded in getting the politicians on their side.

I struggle to understand why you would imagine I think that the recent extremely alarming increase in minors presenting to "gender clinics" is due to an increase in awareness. In the case of pre-puberty children it's due to the massive promotion in schools and youth organisations that "what gender you are" is a choice everyone has to make, and the subsequent fuss over those who make an unconventional choice as "brave" and special. Parties and cake, for God's sake! And then the embarkation on a life of permanent medicalisation, sterility and disfiguring surgery. Because of something that's almost always a passing phase.

The enormous rise in adolescent girls presenting as transgender without any history of earlier tomboy behaviour is, as I said, a social contagion. It has replaced dieting yourself to a shadow as the self-harm craze du jour for self-hating teenage girls. (Although cutting and extreme dieting also seem to feature in this presentation, partly because a very thin girl looks more boyish.) At least they tried to get anorectic girls to eat, but the ROGD ones are being feted as "brave", offered testosterone at their first clinical encounter, and scheduled for mastectomy.

Wait for the bubble to burst and the law-suits to start.
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Old 8th April 2018, 12:38 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Yes. I was about to retweet it but it was so outrageous I wondered if it was actually real, and then I saw some people in the thread claiming it was a fake. But others maintained it was genuine. I'll see if I can find it.

I found another tweet of the same screen grab.

https://twitter.com/LeaningLeft46/st...81686533783553

The replies in this one don't question the veracity of the post, but in the version I saw originally there were several people who thought it was a spoof or at the very least a gross exaggeration.

I do know that a trans-identifying man I have known slightly for many years is prominent on the internet bad-mouthing lesbians who don't want to sleep with him as "transphobes", and that is not a fake or an exaggeration because I know the person involved in real life. In fact I was at the same event as he was last weekend.
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Old 8th April 2018, 12:53 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I found another tweet of the same screen grab.

https://twitter.com/LeaningLeft46/st...81686533783553

The replies in this one don't question the veracity of the post, but in the version I saw originally there were several people who thought it was a spoof or at the very least a gross exaggeration.

I do know that a trans-identifying man I have known slightly for many years is prominent on the internet bad-mouthing lesbians who don't want to sleep with him as "transphobes", and that is not a fake or an exaggeration because I know the person involved in real life. In fact I was at the same event as he was last weekend.
The tweeter claims to be hitting her, and evidently believes she deserved it. Also acts as if there is no reason that a lesbian woman might be shocked to find the genitals of the sex she has no interest in attached to her 'lesbian' partner. Too over the top, can't swallow all this in one shot.
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Old 8th April 2018, 01:35 PM   #66
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The thing is, similar things are actually happening. The main incredulity in the first set of replies was that a man in a dress got close enough to a lesbian for this to happen, without her rumbling that he was actually a man.

There's a more credible story around from a young lesbian who was seeking out sex partners using the internet in her early sexual explorations. (This seems like a very bad idea to me but apparently young people these days do it quite often.) She was contacted by a trans-identifying man who admitted he was male, but laid it on her that it was transphobic of her to reject him because of his genitals. She was a lesbian, he had a lady brain or soul or something, and that should be the criterion. She gave into this pressure and had sex with him but hated it.

There's no doubt that autogynaephilic trans-identifying men want to have sex with women, and that to validate their conviction that they're women they believe themselves to be lesbian, so it's lesbian women they go after. They then get all hurt and offended if they are rejected because of their male genitalia. There are numerous examples all over the internet. Particularly prominent are men who transitioned in middle-age or later, dressing up like dolly-birds and then being all surprised that nobody finds them attractive. Try googling "incel" and "cotton ceiling".

As I said, I know one of these guys in real life. When I first started reading up about this I thought I'd google him to see what his stance was on the controversy, and immediately discovered a blog page written by him vilifying lesbians for keeping him out of their knickers. (Honestly, he's elderly and very unattractive by the standards of either sex, I don't know what the hell he expects.) I've since seen him named as one of the trans activists who piles on women arguing against self-ID to get them banned from twitter.

It's absolutely crazy, but many autogynaephilic men are seriously delusional and that does lead to crazy.
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Old 8th April 2018, 01:39 PM   #67
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How could these autogynaphaelic folks be prevented from entering ladies' rooms if other women don't even know they are men until genitals appear?

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
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Old 8th April 2018, 01:49 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be

Not responding to your posts (or even actually reading them most of the time) while that sentence is attached to them.
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Old 8th April 2018, 02:18 PM   #69
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I think a big issue with the "gender" thing is in a lot of places it has always been used as just another word for "sex".

(Yes I know that in certain places it has been used in other ways for a long time)

I have seen both used on forms I have filled out etc and they were inter-changeable

Habits are hard to break

Personally think the people wanting 100s of genders should have just thought up another word and they wouldn't get the push back
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Old 8th April 2018, 02:33 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Not responding to your posts (or even actually reading them most of the time) while that sentence is attached to them.
A statement that properly belongs in a PM rather than trying to publicly bully me.

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Old 8th April 2018, 02:38 PM   #71
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Suit yourself.
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Old 8th April 2018, 02:43 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Suit yourself.
Sad that an opportunity to reach some further insight or work towards a solution fell apart over that.

LOL

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Old 8th April 2018, 02:45 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I think a big issue with the "gender" thing is in a lot of places it has always been used as just another word for "sex".

(Yes I know that in certain places it has been used in other ways for a long time)

I have seen both used on forms I have filled out etc and they were inter-changeable

Habits are hard to break

Personally think the people wanting 100s of genders should have just thought up another word and they wouldn't get the push back

The stuff about people announcing that their gender is the north wind, or a polar bear, or a week last Tuesday, is relatively harmless nuttery. The stuff where people decide that their "gender" is the opposite of their biological sex and then use that as a lever to gain the privileges of the sex they actually aren't, not so harmless.

They're not going to dream up another word for the same reason that they won't accept "third space" bathroom and changing facilities. They are fixated on becoming the sex they aren't. Woman is a performance they do, often their over-sexualised fantasy of what they think a woman should be, but they're deadly serious about wanting absolutely everything with the label "female" on it.

Believe it or not, you can buy prosthetics for a man to wear to make it seem as if he's having a period, using stage blood. Trans-identifying men get all upset if they're not invited for cervical smear tests or mammograms, and react with fury if they are invited for prostate screening. Being a woman is an obsession. So calling this feeling they have something other than gender isn't going to work.
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Old 8th April 2018, 03:05 PM   #74
shuttlt
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Personally think the people wanting 100s of genders should have just thought up another word and they wouldn't get the push back
That plan doesn’t sound like it would generate many clicks.
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Old 8th April 2018, 03:09 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
That plan doesn’t sound like it would generate many clicks.
Lol

Yeah

Wouldn't really work for them
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Old 8th April 2018, 03:10 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
How could these autogynaphaelic folks be prevented from entering ladies' rooms if other women don't even know they are men until genitals appear?
The problem is sorting out the autogynaephilic sex fetish types from the genuine transsexuals. I have no idea what the ratio is but one thin's for sure, there's enough acceptance of the trans "thing" in society now that there's no denying that actual transsexual people exist and are more than just a fetish.

The trans-uber-alles account is a troll account. Look it up on Tumblr. It's so trollish that I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it was TERF run and created solely to discredit transsexuals. There's a bit of a problem with using anonymous blogs as sources, especially Tumblr as we can never know what's satire, and what's not.

I'm sure we can all remember all the hype and paranoia when homosexuality was being decriminalized. All those stories about perverts in change rooms raping the innocent, people being allowed to marry dogs etc.

Trans people are at that stage now and it's rather interesting that the most vocal anti trans group, lesbian identified radical feminists, the people who were demanding acceptance and tolerance only a few decades ago are now strapping on the jackboots to keep "those people" out of "our" spaces.
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Old 8th April 2018, 03:13 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Lol

Yeah

Wouldn't really work for them
I think they're mostly young people struggling to come up with an identity that makes them unique.
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Old 8th April 2018, 03:15 PM   #78
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Hah. Mumsnet are lesbian identified radical feminists now. LOL.
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Old 8th April 2018, 03:24 PM   #79
shuttlt
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Trans people are at that stage now and it's rather interesting that the most vocal anti trans group, lesbian identified radical feminists, the people who were demanding acceptance and tolerance only a few decades ago are now strapping on the jackboots to keep "those people" out of "our" spaces.
Surely every such liberalisation is an individual case? Just because a group has approved of/benefited from some past liberalisation doesn’t obligate them to approve of all future ones.
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Old 8th April 2018, 03:34 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The stuff about people announcing that their gender is the north wind, or a polar bear, or a week last Tuesday, is relatively harmless nuttery. The stuff where people decide that their "gender" is the opposite of their biological sex and then use that as a lever to gain the privileges of the sex they actually aren't, not so harmless...
What privileges would that be? Getting access to the Ladies room so they can tinkle?
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