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Old 10th April 2018, 11:52 AM   #321
tyr_13
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Who gets to speak for women then?

You imply it is those that think like yourself, by what metric did you come to this decision?
Rational examination of the evidence and arguments. Everyone can make contributions to those. The irony is that my argument is to reduce the weight given to identity politics, yet I'm still accused of 'the feeling argument' and 'identity politics'.
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Old 10th April 2018, 11:55 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Well, it looks like this link is needed again.

The science tells us that it is not just 'in their heads'.
Actually it does. They just define it as "their brains", but you can perfectly well replace "brain" with "head" if you wanna use a more informal wording. But that's essentially what Gender Dysphoria is.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, by the way (Though a lot of people take this description as offensive) But that's where the "conflict" of the man who feels like a woman "trapped inside a man's body" originates. In fact, the very wording "woman trapped inside a man's body" is literally describing the process of a brain that feels like a female, while inside a man's body.
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Old 10th April 2018, 11:58 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And that is the difference.

At some point being accepted as a man who wants to be a woman wasn't enough. We know have to pretend the very idea that you want to be... changes reality.

And again the irony and tragedy of this is none of this makes a functional difference.

Man: "I would rather be a woman."
Me: "Gotcha. Fully understand and support you."
Man: "I don't want my biological sex to impose unwarranted roles on my life and place in society."
Me: "Completely agree with you 100%."
Man: "And I need you to actually think of me and identify me in your own head as a woman."
Me: "Wait what? I don't understand what you are..."
Progressives: "Transphobe! Bigot! Cisgender Scum!"

This isn't argument about any difference in any objective behavior or action or anything you actually do. It's trying to demonize people for not pretending they conceptualize something in a way you do even if it makes no difference.

All so people can feel they are winning the "Lookit at me being more progressive and accepting than you" game.

I don't care if others make poor arguments for thinking of women as women, there are other actually solid arguments for doing so. Don't fall for the fallacy fallacy that just because someone has made a fallacy that the conclusion is therefore wrong.

First of all, it's just easier to think of women as women. Bring in the trans/cis only when it might actually matter. Secondly, "I don't want my biological sex to impose unwarranted roles on my life and place in society." is NOT BEING ANSWERED WITH 100% AGREE. Odin's eye man, why on earth do you think that's what happening? They're often met with discrimination, violence, and hate. Third, they are women. Their bodies tell them so. This is a 'does a vag make you a woman or your brain and other body systems?' question of defining 'women'. If you think it's a vag, then you're saying that outward appearance is more important that other biological factors. I side with the other biological systems. It isn't that I argue against your thinking to be a virtue laiden progressive, but because I honestly disagree based on the evidence.

Not every problem is tribalism, and even when it is a problem it often isn't even within an order of magnitude of being the biggest one on every issue.
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Old 10th April 2018, 11:59 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Outside of sports where the advantages to transwomen vs ciswomen is debatable how is being inclusive hurting women's health and what ever is in the ect?

How is women's health being encroached upon?
Um...don't undercut your entire argument by making such a completely untrue statement. It really isn't debatable...at all. And that's not sexist or transphobic. It's reality about the differences between male and female. It's biology.

I have a very hard time with this particular type of discussion. I'm a pretty liberal republican and, also, an atheist. I have a hard time agreeing with most right-wing social ideas and most left-wing fiscal policies. However, I absolutely detest the right-wing views as they pertain to science 99% of the time. This particular subject rattles my cage, though. The progressives are arguing against science - THERE ARE MALES AND FEMALES (and a small group of intersex). But to make a statement like that, PT, is completely ignoring the science of biology. 99% of regular men will out-throw a ball compared to 99% of regular females. Are we to stick our heads into holes to just ignore this basic fact?

None of this has anything to do with self-identified gender. But ignoring science seems ridiculous. I've never considered you a far-right science denier, Ponderingturtle, but if you want to come out of the closet as one now, please clarify your position.

Or you can admit to making claims that are ridiculous interpretations of what others are saying and then grandstanding for your own personal ***** and giggles. Whatever makes you happy, I guess.
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Old 10th April 2018, 11:59 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Actually it does. They just define it as "their brains", but you can perfectly well replace "brain" with "head" if you wanna use a more informal wording. But that's essentially what Gender Dysphoria is.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, by the way (Though a lot of people take this description as offensive) But that's where the "conflict" of the man who feels like a woman "trapped inside a man's body" originates. In fact, the very wording "woman trapped inside a man's body" is literally describing the process of a brain that feels like a female, while inside a man's body.
Please actually go through the link and it's citations, because it isn't actually all in the brain either. Hormonal reactions differ, as in how the body reacts to certain chemicals.
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Old 10th April 2018, 12:04 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Secondly, "I don't want my biological sex to impose unwarranted roles on my life and place in society." is NOT BEING ANSWERED WITH 100% AGREE.
Just because we haven't won the war yet doesn't allow you to write the battle field as you see fit and doesn't make everything any proposes to help the battle automatically either factually correct or the best way to move forward.

This and your previous post bring up this air of "Transgenderism is a stop gap put into place until gender roles are removed" which A) is pure B.S. revisionism and not what transgenderism is being promoted as a B) makes zero logical sense.
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Old 10th April 2018, 12:12 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The science tells us that it is not just 'in their heads'. There are multiple body systems telling them this. When your body systems are telling you you're a woman, what are you supposed to be? That makes you a woman.
Again, that depends on how you define "woman", but apparently the definition's kept secret, for obvious reasons.
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Old 10th April 2018, 12:13 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
It's biology.
I have it on good authority that biology is sexist.
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Old 10th April 2018, 12:14 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Just because we haven't won the war yet doesn't allow you to write the battle field as you see fit and doesn't make everything any proposes to help the battle automatically either factually correct or the best way to move forward.

This and your previous post bring up this air of "Transgenderism is a stop gap put into place until gender roles are removed" which A) is pure B.S. revisionism and not what transgenderism is being promoted as a B) makes zero logical sense.
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Again, that depends on how you define "woman", but apparently the definition's kept secret, for obvious reasons.
Well you could both read all of my posts to have answers to both of these.
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Old 10th April 2018, 12:14 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Please actually go through the link and it's citations, because it isn't actually all in the brain either. Hormonal reactions differ, as in how the body reacts to certain chemicals.
Okay. So gender equality doesn't exist.

The idea that men and women are functionally different in meaningful ways now has to go back on the table whether you like it or not. The very idea that men and women should just be assumed to be equal and appropriate for all jobs and roles in society just got shelved. The entire last... century of gender equality has to go out the window or at least be top down reviewed now if that's "the facts."

Because the dynamic you are trying to create is that Cis-Men/Cis-Women are the same as Trans-Men/Trans-Women without acknowledge any difference between men and women in the first place to give that any context.

You have can't have it both ways. There can't be a distinction that doesn't have a difference.

If a man who identifies as a woman is meaningfully different from a Cis-male that difference by definition has to also exist between cis-males and cis-women or the entire thing collapses into pointlessness.

You're undoing gender equality as a concept in order to put the difference between cis and trans into the equation but refusing to acknowledge that.

So what do we get? Transgender rights and acceptance or the base social concept of a general assumption that outside of purely biological distinctions and some demographic minutiae that the genders are equal?

Because... you... can't... do... both. You're creating a bloody paradox.

You have to choose one or the other. And I don't think you're going to.
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Old 10th April 2018, 12:17 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Well you could both read all of my posts to have answers to both of these.
I may have missed one or five. Would it have been a pain to just link to it?
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Old 10th April 2018, 12:19 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay. So gender equality doesn't exist.

The idea that men and women are different in meaningful ways and all that got put back on the table whether you like it or not. The very idea that men and women should just be assumed to be equal and appropriate for all jobs and roles in society got shelved. The entire last... century of gender equality has to go out the window or at least be top down reviewed now if that's "the facts."

Because the dynamic you are trying to create is that Cis-Men/Cis-Women are the same as Trans-Men/Trans-Women without acknowledge any difference between men and women in the first place to give that any context.

You have can't have it both ways. There can't be a distinction that doesn't have a difference.

If a Trans-male is meaningfully different from a Cis-male that difference by definition has to also exist between cis-males and cis-women or the entire thing collapses into pointlessness.

You're undoing gender equality as a concept in order to put the difference between cis and trans into the equation but refusing to acknowledge that.

So what do we get? Transgender rights and acceptance or the base social concept of a general assumption that outside of purely biological distinctions and some demographic minutiae that the genders are equal?

Because... you... can't... do... both. You're creating a bloody paradox.

You have to choose one or the other. And I don't think you're going to.

No paradox. Society treats genders differently. That's the truth. To acknowledge that truth simply doesn't have the implications you're making. It doesn't mean you are endorsing that treatment. If you think through what I'm saying about treating women as women, does that endorse any specific treatment of women? Is that prescribing having women not wear pants? Of course not.

And those biological differences do exist, and they exist in varying degrees with trans people too.

EDIT: Maybe this is more clear, when I say, 'treat women as women', that means that once we treat women and men equally outside of biological differences, that would still be treating women as women. Nothing about that means not also changing how we treat women, just not to exclude trans women.
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Old 10th April 2018, 12:20 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I may have missed one or five. Would it have been a pain to just link to it?
You actually quoted it. Remember, I explicitly said I sided with the other biological systems. You're asking how I define a woman after quoting how I define a woman.
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Old 10th April 2018, 12:21 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
You actually quoted it. Remember, I explicitly said I sided with the other biological systems. You're asking how I define a woman after quoting how I define a woman.
Are you refering to post 321? I don't see a definition there.
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Old 10th April 2018, 12:24 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Are you refering to post 321? I don't see a definition there.
I'm so confused right now. I said, "When your body systems are telling you you're a woman, what are you supposed to be? That makes you a woman."


What part of, 'that makes you a woman' is unclear?
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Old 10th April 2018, 12:30 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
"Transvestite" is Latin for cross-dresser (more or less). I wonder why the shift occurred?

I have vague memories of people on daytime TV during the early 90's claiming that their crossdressing was more than some fun, kinky thing, and there was a "woman trapped in a man's body" aspect going on.
The most excellent comedian Eddie Izzard is a "tranny" (his word). He explained his particular feelings - he feels like a woman, but a woman who wants to have sex with other women. A lesbian in a man's body, in other words.

I seriously doubt that this observation will illuminate the discussion here, so please carry on
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Old 10th April 2018, 12:39 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I'm so confused right now. I said, "When your body systems are telling you you're a woman, what are you supposed to be? That makes you a woman."


What part of, 'that makes you a woman' is unclear?
When your 'body's systems tell you' you are a woman, you are a woman?
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Old 10th April 2018, 12:40 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Wut?


Anytime. Some people modify themselves to look like alligators. But they don't think they are alligators. Many transgender think they are the opposite sex, not playing at it. Big difference.
I could point you to many blogs by furries that state in no uncertain terms they believe their soul is that of an animal and they were born the wrong species.

But I'm going to guess you will ignore them as statistically insignificant, the exact same thing you complain people are doing to trans folks.

The take away should be , how willing would you be to treat that person as a tiger? That is how the other side feels about trans folKS.

Maybe the issue isn't what people should be unchallenged, but rather how we can challange and set boundaries in a sensitive and productive way.
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Old 10th April 2018, 12:43 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Rational examination of the evidence and arguments. Everyone can make contributions to those. The irony is that my argument is to reduce the weight given to identity politics, yet I'm still accused of 'the feeling argument' and 'identity politics'.
Problem being in the identity politics paradigm I cannot make this decision myself as I'm neither a woman nor trans. I have to seek the experiences of those people.

When I do I see diametrically opposed views from the people that I'm supposed to listen to.

This is the end result of this kind of identity politics.
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Old 10th April 2018, 12:47 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
I could point you to many blogs by furries that state in no uncertain terms they believe their soul is that of an animal and they were born the wrong species.

But I'm going to guess you will ignore them as statistically insignificant, the exact same thing you complain people are doing to trans folks.
No, I'd call the furry-souls nuts. Or more accurately, playing around.

Quote:
The take away should be , how willing would you be to treat that person as a tiger? That is how the other side feels about trans folKS.

Maybe the issue isn't what people should be unchallenged, but rather how we can challange and set boundaries in a sensitive and productive way.
I'm happy to treat a trans as the sex they identify with. The comment you replied to was talking about the distinction between modifying your body for fun vs genuinely believing you are something else.

Eta: I said before, I think feeling like you are in the wrong body must be brutal, and lo siento babe, I feel for them

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Old 10th April 2018, 12:56 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
Um...don't undercut your entire argument by making such a completely untrue statement. It really isn't debatable...at all. And that's not sexist or transphobic. It's reality about the differences between male and female. It's biology.

I have a very hard time with this particular type of discussion. I'm a pretty liberal republican and, also, an atheist. I have a hard time agreeing with most right-wing social ideas and most left-wing fiscal policies. However, I absolutely detest the right-wing views as they pertain to science 99% of the time. This particular subject rattles my cage, though. The progressives are arguing against science - THERE ARE MALES AND FEMALES (and a small group of intersex). But to make a statement like that, PT, is completely ignoring the science of biology. 99% of regular men will out-throw a ball compared to 99% of regular females. Are we to stick our heads into holes to just ignore this basic fact?
And of course the women in question are on testosterone blockers and estrogen and so on. That is why I was talking about trans women, not men. Then of course there are the freaks that fake it as women but fail the medical screenings to compete in womens sports, they shouldn't be labeled as women on their ID's either or some such.
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Old 10th April 2018, 01:01 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay. So gender equality doesn't exist.

The idea that men and women are functionally different in meaningful ways now has to go back on the table whether you like it or not. The very idea that men and women should just be assumed to be equal and appropriate for all jobs and roles in society just got shelved. The entire last... century of gender equality has to go out the window or at least be top down reviewed now if that's "the facts."

Because the dynamic you are trying to create is that Cis-Men/Cis-Women are the same as Trans-Men/Trans-Women without acknowledge any difference between men and women in the first place to give that any context.

You have can't have it both ways. There can't be a distinction that doesn't have a difference.

If a man who identifies as a woman is meaningfully different from a Cis-male that difference by definition has to also exist between cis-males and cis-women or the entire thing collapses into pointlessness.

You're undoing gender equality as a concept in order to put the difference between cis and trans into the equation but refusing to acknowledge that.

So what do we get? Transgender rights and acceptance or the base social concept of a general assumption that outside of purely biological distinctions and some demographic minutiae that the genders are equal?

Because... you... can't... do... both. You're creating a bloody paradox.

You have to choose one or the other. And I don't think you're going to.
You do realize all the trans people I know are solidly in favor of equal rights, what kind of step back are you asserting this is?

And I have certainly not seen a lot of people proposing a truly gender free society.
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Old 10th April 2018, 01:03 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
The most excellent comedian Eddie Izzard is a "tranny" (his word). He explained his particular feelings - he feels like a woman, but a woman who wants to have sex with other women. A lesbian in a man's body, in other words.

I seriously doubt that this observation will illuminate the discussion here, so please carry on
That is rather outdated information about Eddie. And the quote I remember was not a lesbian in a mans body but a male lesbian.
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Old 10th April 2018, 01:27 PM   #344
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Every reliable dictionary I have seen has a similar definition of "woman"

eg Oxford English

"An adult human female."

Unless someone can point out to me they are all wrong or that trans can somehow magically turn into females, there is no need for "cis"
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Old 10th April 2018, 01:29 PM   #345
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PT: How do you feel about Mack Begg's then?

Or for that matter, Fallon Fox?

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Old 10th April 2018, 02:13 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I don't believe you.
And that still doesn't make what I said wrong.

Quote:
Isn't the latter "trans-male"?
No. Don't care how you got there, if you're male you're male.

Quote:
And again, you're missing the point, which seems to indicate that you're doing it deliberately.
Or it could mean your argument is wrong.
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Old 10th April 2018, 02:52 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Well, it looks like this link is needed again.

The science tells us that it is not just 'in their heads'. There are multiple body systems telling them this.
First, I'd like to point out how much of that link is uncited ideology about gender and orientation:

Quote:
So, where do we stand on transgender issues? Science tells us that gender is certainly not binary; it may not even be a linear spectrum. Like many other facets of identity, it can operate on a broad range of levels and operate outside of many definitions. And it also appears that gender may not be as static as we assume. At the forefront of this, transgender identity is complex – it’s unlikely we’ll ever be able to attribute it to one neat, contained set of causes, and there is still much to be learned. But we know now that several of those causes are biological. These individuals are not suffering a mental illness, or capriciously “choosing” a different identity. The transgender identity is multi-dimensional – but it deserves no less recognition or respect than any other facet of humankind.
"Science tells us", and you have to take the author's word.

Second, for the biological basis, it contradicts their rhetoric because the studies it references paint a picture of gendered traits and binary genders. You'll find that this has fallen out of favor and labels you as "truscum" and "gender essentialist" if you bring it up in the current movement, as I have found. These are the arguments of an older trans movement, to establish that there is a biological basis for dysphoria.

Third, the findings themselves are cherry picked and the conclusions highly speculative and controversial as well. Here is a more balanced article looking at studies on this matter, and here is a long article on gender in general putting the "brainsex" debate in context.

Quote:
When your body systems are telling you you're a woman, what are you supposed to be? That makes you a woman.
Begging the question. Even if we assumed strict biological determination, which again is controversial at best, this seems to be assuming the definition: Woman - one who identifies as a woman because of brain development.
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Old 10th April 2018, 03:12 PM   #348
Belz...
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I'm so confused right now.
Maybe our double confusion will lead to clarity at some point!

Quote:
I said, "When your body systems are telling you you're a woman, what are you supposed to be? That makes you a woman."

What part of, 'that makes you a woman' is unclear?
All of it. It's not a definition, first of all. And second, how do you determine what tells whom what they are? How do you know that someone suffering from gender dysphoria feels that way because of hormones, or brain structure, or whatever? And what about the rest of that person's biolgical systems which scream the opposite?

So that's why I'm asking: what is the definition of "woman"?



Also, what about people's body systems telling them they're Napoleon?
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Old 10th April 2018, 03:14 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
And that still doesn't make what I said wrong.
All you need to do is present evidence.

I think you misinterpreted something you read.

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No. Don't care how you got there, if you're male you're male.
Fair enough. How do you define "male"?

Quote:
Or it could mean your argument is wrong.
No, me being wrong cannot follow from you missing the point. You'd have to understand and address the point first.
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Old 10th April 2018, 03:20 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
Begging the question. Even if we assumed strict biological determination, which no one does, this seems to be assuming the definition: Woman - one who identifies as a woman.
Well, that's the end result of the validation culture of our time. Whatever you feel is true. Whatever you want to be, you are. It makes difficult the differentiation of people with actual dysphoria and those who are just riding the oppression-is-cool fad. It also helps no one.
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Old 10th April 2018, 03:32 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, that's the end result of the validation culture of our time. Whatever you feel is true. Whatever you want to be, you are. It makes difficult the differentiation of people with actual dysphoria and those who are just riding the oppression-is-cool fad. It also helps no one.
It also has the potential of messing with how funding allocation is sorted if you happen to be in a country with a free universal health system.
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Old 10th April 2018, 03:39 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
First, I'd like to point out how much of that link is uncited ideology about gender and orientation:



"Science tells us", and you have to take the author's word.
No you don't. That paragraph is the conclusion, and the support is cited and link to throughout the article, and the further reading links.

Quote:
Second, for the biological basis, it contradicts their rhetoric because the studies it references paint a picture of gendered traits and binary genders. You'll find that this has fallen out of favor and labels you as "truscum" and "gender essentialist" if you bring it up in the current movement, as I have found. These are the arguments of an older trans movement, to establish that there is a biological basis for dysphoria.
How is that a contradiction? Reexamining old data in light of new information doesn't mean one accepts the old conclusions, let alone verbiage.

Quote:
Third, the findings themselves are cherry picked and the conclusions highly speculative and controversial as well. Here is a more balanced article looking at studies on this matter, and here is a long article on gender in general putting the "brainsex" debate in context.
Am I missing something important, because the 'more balanced article' looks to be almost completely in agreement? Is it because it spends more time talking about the limitations? You quoted the article stressing the unknowns and limitations.

Your article doesn't contradict the conclusion that it's very complex without easy answers, but that there are biological factors. It is not 'they just think it'.



Quote:
Begging the question. Even if we assumed strict biological determination, which again is controversial at best, this seems to be assuming the definition: Woman - one who identifies as a woman because of brain development.
Is that a bad definition? It fits the best we know so far.
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Old 10th April 2018, 03:49 PM   #353
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I think the questions about identifying as dolphins or Napoleon are too far off the beaten trail for much, outside of the specific semantic question and self-identification alone. In the general trans debate, the most relevant and closest to another condition I would say would be the people who identify as amputees and seek to have limbs amputated.

We have plenty of research showing transition leads to the best outcomes. But again, this is the old framework of transitioning between binary genders due to dysphoria with adult patients.
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Old 10th April 2018, 03:52 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Maybe our double confusion will lead to clarity at some point!



All of it. It's not a definition, first of all. And second, how do you determine what tells whom what they are? How do you know that someone suffering from gender dysphoria feels that way because of hormones, or brain structure, or whatever? And what about the rest of that person's biolgical systems which scream the opposite?

So that's why I'm asking: what is the definition of "woman"?



Also, what about people's body systems telling them they're Napoleon?
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, that's the end result of the validation culture of our time. Whatever you feel is true. Whatever you want to be, you are. It makes difficult the differentiation of people with actual dysphoria and those who are just riding the oppression-is-cool fad. It also helps no one.

What about people who think they're Napoleon? Did you have research that could show any relation to transgender issues, or did it just sound like a valid argument?

It helps no one? What do you even mean by that? No one is helped by accepting transgender people as more than 'just wanting to be the other sex'?

All this information on it being more than 'just feelings', yet you fall right back to that.

It's difficult to determine who actually is transgender. It takes time, professionals, and lots of effort on behalf of the person. There is absolutely no obligation for it to be 'simple' to be true.
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Old 10th April 2018, 04:06 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
No you don't. That paragraph is the conclusion, and the support is cited and link to throughout the article, and the further reading links.



How is that a contradiction? Reexamining old data in light of new information doesn't mean one accepts the old conclusions, let alone verbiage.



Am I missing something important, because the 'more balanced article' looks to be almost completely in agreement? Is it because it spends more time talking about the limitations? You quoted the article stressing the unknowns and limitations.

Your article doesn't contradict the conclusion that it's very complex without easy answers, but that there are biological factors. It is not 'they just think it'.





Is that a bad definition? It fits the best we know so far.
Going to be honest, I don't think any of this addressed what I wrote and you didn't really add to any of what you wrote, so I would just be repeating myself in response. So... Good times?
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Old 10th April 2018, 04:57 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
What about people who think they're Napoleon?
Well, are they Napoleon by the simple fact that their "bodies" tell them that they are?

Quote:
Did you have research that could show any relation to transgender issues, or did it just sound like a valid argument?
I want to understand how you define what makes someone the thing they claim to be. I'm still not sure how you define "man" and "woman" outside of "they feel like they are so".

Quote:
It helps no one? What do you even mean by that? No one is helped by accepting transgender people as more than 'just wanting to be the other sex'?
If you look back at the post you quoted, and presumably read, I was talking about the culture of validation.

Quote:
It's difficult to determine who actually is transgender.
That's at least one thing we agree on.

Quote:
It takes time, professionals, and lots of effort on behalf of the person. There is absolutely no obligation for it to be 'simple' to be true.
Who said it had to be simple?
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Old 10th April 2018, 05:00 PM   #357
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Okay let's try a more grounded comparison.

Rachel Dolezal. Remember her? The white lady (German, Swedish, and Czech ancestory) that "identified" as black and headed a chapter of the NAACP?

Is she black? "Race" is certainly a near totally social construct.
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Old 10th April 2018, 05:26 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Well, it looks like this link is needed again.

The science tells us that it is not just 'in their heads'. There are multiple body systems telling them this.
Which multiple body systems? All I'm seeing is brain/mind.
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Old 10th April 2018, 05:40 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It's difficult to determine who actually is transgender. It takes time, professionals, and lots of effort on behalf of the person. There is absolutely no obligation for it to be 'simple' to be true.
This is the old framework. The current movement is against medical gate-keeping and outside determination. Only self-identification is required.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2...treatment.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7855381.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/19/u...alifornia.html
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Old 10th April 2018, 05:50 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Well, it looks like this link is needed again.

From the first paragraph in the link:

Quote:
Think of your most noticeable feature. ... But whatever it is, for better or worse, it is probably not your most salient feature to the world around you. To others, our most salient feature is one that doesn’t make any of us very salient at all – a feature in which none of us had any say in, which was assigned at, or prior to, birth: are you male or female?
In the first paragraph, she correctly identifies the problem. Your most noticeable feature is your sex, and when you "notice" someone's sex, you notice it based on appearance.


So, if you happen to be in a situation, like a locker room, where you might notice what is normally hidden behind a zipper, you're going to judge their maleness or femaleness based on what you can see, not based on what they might be thinking at the time, or the shape of something that is hidden inside the cranium.

If someone has one of those things that can make a woman pregnant, I'm not going to tell a woman that it's ok for that other person to see her undress on the grounds that "she" identifies as a woman.
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