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Tags protest incidents , protest issues , sports incidents

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Old 24th May 2018, 09:05 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
That is a good point.

Playing the national anthem before a football game, a baseball game, a car race, etc. is not compulsory. At least not in the USA.
It is if the DOJ DOD is a major advertiser that has paid you millions to have these little patriot theaters before your game.
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Last edited by Dr. Keith; 24th May 2018 at 09:38 AM. Reason: Wrong Department, mea culpa.
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Old 24th May 2018, 09:07 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Well I doubt that it is really that simple since it is expected that the players are also being paid to represent the NFL when they are playing one of the NFL games.

Therefore, if the players are using their NFL sponsored screen time to make their their protests visible, then it can appear as if it is the NFL itself that is making the protest.
The NFL executives pierced the issue by adding their protest in at the start of games.
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Old 24th May 2018, 09:12 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
It is if the DOJ is a major advertiser that has paid you millions to have these little patriot theaters before your game.
The NFL could've done the right thing and canceled that contract, since it clearly creates a conflict of interest. I think I saw they are being paid around $6 million from the DOJ, for the length of contract not even per year. For a league that pays its commissioner some $32 million a year you'd think they could rather easily afford to do so.
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Old 24th May 2018, 09:16 AM   #84
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I remember there was a player who got fined because he wore Beats headphones in public and not Bose, which the NFL has some kind of deal with.

I think the issue more than anything else is representing the league publicly. If they can fine you for wearing the wrong headphones, I don't see any difference in fining you for making the league look bad in any other way. Players have the option of staying in the locker room so they don't have to be patriotic.
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Old 24th May 2018, 09:18 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
It is if the DOJ is a major advertiser that has paid you millions to have these little patriot theaters before your game.
Are there any details of this deal?
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Old 24th May 2018, 09:22 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Are there any details of this deal?
Its... complicated. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/nfl-sideline-anthem/

Flake and fellow Arizona Republican Sen. John McCain issued a report stating that the Defense Department had been paying for patriotic displays in football and other sports between 2011 and 2014:

Contrary to the public statements made by DOD and the NFL, the majority of the contracts — 72 of the 122 contracts we analyzed — clearly show that DOD paid for patriotic tributes at professional football, baseball, basketball, hockey, and soccer games. These paid tributes included on-field color guard, enlistment and reenlistment ceremonies, performances of the national anthem, full-field flag details, ceremonial first pitches͕ and puck drops. The National Guard paid teams for the “opportunity” to sponsor military appreciation nights and to recognize its birthday. It paid the Buffalo Bills to sponsor its Salute to the Service game. DOD even paid teams for the “opportunity” to perform surprise welcome home promotions for troops returning from deployments and to recognize wounded warriors. While well intentioned, we wonder just how many of these displays included a disclaimer that these events were in fact sponsored by the DOD at taxpayer expense. Even with that disclosure, it is hard to understand how a team accepting taxpayer funds to sponsor a military appreciation game, or to recognize wounded warriors or returning troops, can be construed as anything other than paid patriotism.


ETA: DOJ is definitely not right. DOD.

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Old 24th May 2018, 09:23 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Are there any details of this deal?
Here is a general discussion of the issue: Snopes

ETA: ninja'd
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Old 24th May 2018, 09:36 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
It is if the DOJ is a major advertiser that has paid you millions to have these little patriot theaters before your game.
Wow!

I knew that DOD did sponsor things like race cars and such, but I had no idea that they were so involved.

Ugh! Another good example of our tax dollars at work.
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Old 24th May 2018, 09:55 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Option 3: It was about a group of domestic elitists who objected to a "foreign" group of elitists being in charge when THEY wanted to be in charge.

Never forget that under the Founders' vision for America:
  • slavery was legal
  • only men could vote
  • only property owning men could vote
  • primogeniture was legal
  • married women were treated as if property of their husbands
Your post certainly is illustrative of what the left thinks of this country.

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Old 24th May 2018, 09:59 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
With the vast amounts of money that those players are paid, if they really want to protest things, then they can definitely find all sorts of way to do so.
Most players don't make "vast amounts of money", and their careers don't last too long. I had a student whose dad was a former Raiders lineman. Nice guy, but very poor and his knees were all shot to hell.
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Old 24th May 2018, 10:02 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
No, it is rather about whether the pre-game anthem is the appropriate forum for players to protest police violence.

As I said, I think the kneeling protests were respectful and reasonable. But the league thinks otherwise. It does not entail that the league denies police violence is a problem, but simply that this is not the time and place for political protests..
If that were the case, the NFL would simply not play the anthem at all. Since they're choosing to keep it in place AND trying to prevent kneeling, they're sending a rather strong message. Couple this with the fact the owners of the teams are almost all white, the players are mostly black, and they're protesting police treatment of blacks, and the racial overtones are hard to ignore.
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Old 24th May 2018, 10:04 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Most players don't make "vast amounts of money", and their careers don't last too long. I had a student whose dad was a former Raiders lineman. Nice guy, but very poor and his knees were all shot to hell.
Not vast sums, but the rookie minimum is now $480,000. Even a 3 year career should just about set someone up for life if they make good investments. But it wasn't that way even in the 1990's. Until about 1980 it wasn't uncommon for some players to get an off-season job.
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Old 24th May 2018, 10:08 AM   #93
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Surely the point is to pretend the problem is football players respectfully taking a knee and not the issues with the treatment of minorities in the USA?
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Old 24th May 2018, 10:13 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Not vast sums, but the rookie minimum is now $480,000. Even a 3 year career should just about set someone up for life if they make good investments. But it wasn't that way even in the 1990's. Until about 1980 it wasn't uncommon for some players to get an off-season job.
You realize those players don't actually see $480,000 if they make that, right? State and local taxes at that bracket are what? Almost 50%? And agent fees are another 3%. So after a three year career, a player has made about $600,000, and of course has had living expenses they've had to pay for. That's not exactly a fortune. They also are likely to have serious health issues the rest of their lives.
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Old 24th May 2018, 10:19 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
You realize those players don't actually see $480,000 if they make that, right? State and local taxes at that bracket are what? Almost 50%? And agent fees are another 3%. So after a three year career, a player has made about $600,000, and of course has had living expenses they've had to pay for. That's not exactly a fortune. They also are likely to have serious health issues the rest of their lives.
Take home pay would be $280,000 even in Cali. Live cheap, and you could have 500,000 after 3 years. Set for life, OK maybe not, but thats a huge headstart for a 25 year old. The NFL now covers players for life as far as healthcare. They chose to be greedy and didn't do that for past players before a certain point though.

https://www.taxformcalculator.com/tax/480000.html
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Old 24th May 2018, 10:24 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Most players don't make "vast amounts of money", and their careers don't last too long. I had a student whose dad was a former Raiders lineman. Nice guy, but very poor and his knees were all shot to hell.
If money is an issue for any of these players, there are many other things that can do besides making money donations.

I did volunteer work when I was in college and I barely made $6,000 per year.
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Old 24th May 2018, 10:32 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Take home pay would be $280,000 even in Cali. Live cheap, and you could have 500,000 after 3 years. Set for life, OK maybe not, but thats a huge headstart for a 25 year old. The NFL now covers players for life as far as healthcare. They chose to be greedy and didn't do that for past players before a certain point though.

https://www.taxformcalculator.com/tax/480000.html
There are other paycheck deductions, of course. FICA is going to take almost 10%. I don't know what other fees there are specific to the NFL, except the 3% agent fee I mentioned. And you're pretending these guys simply pocket their salaries without having any other expenses. Life is expensive, and it isn't any cheaper for NFL players.

And it's nice the NFL pays for healthcare, but that still doesn't change the fact that a lot of players are going to suffer from health problems the rest of their lives.

It's not the glamorous job most people think it is.
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Old 24th May 2018, 10:36 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
There are other paycheck deductions, of course. FICA is going to take almost 10%. I don't know what other fees there are specific to the NFL, except the 3% agent fee I mentioned. And you're pretending these guys simply pocket their salaries without having any other expenses. Life is expensive, and it isn't any cheaper for NFL players.

And it's nice the NFL pays for healthcare, but that still doesn't change the fact that a lot of players are going to suffer from health problems the rest of their lives.

It's not the glamorous job most people think it is.
That calculator is already including FICA which BTW is only 1.5% on income above $127,000. And anyone, even in if they play in LA or SF can live off way, way less than $280,000 a year if they choose to do so.

I've watched some of the training camp behind the scenes stuff that has been done. No its not as glamorous is people seem to think for the low level players. Especially linemen.

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Old 24th May 2018, 10:36 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
If money is an issue for any of these players, there are many other things that can do besides making money donations.

I did volunteer work when I was in college and I barely made $6,000 per year.
That doesn't seem to have anything to do with my point that most players don't have "vast amounts of wealth". They make good money for a short time, and then are on their own, and often have to deal with debilitating health problems.

"CTE found in 99% of studied brains from deceased NFL players"
https://www.cnn.com/2017/07/25/healt...udy/index.html
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Old 24th May 2018, 10:43 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
That calculator is already including FICA which BTW is only 1.5% on income above $127,000.

I've watched some of the training camp behind the scenes stuff that has been done. No its not as glamorous is people seem to think for the low level players. Especially linemen.
FICA is 6% for the first $128,000. Anything above that, you don't pay. Medicare is 1.5% for the first $200,000 and then 2.4% for anything above that.
https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc751

If these players have healthcare for life now, I don't know if they're still paying into Medicare. And from what I've read, the NFL covers health care for five years after the person stops playing. Do you have a link?

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Old 24th May 2018, 11:00 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
That doesn't seem to have anything to do with my point that most players don't have "vast amounts of wealth". They make good money for a short time, and then are on their own, and often have to deal with debilitating health problems.

"CTE found in 99% of studied brains from deceased NFL players"
https://www.cnn.com/2017/07/25/healt...udy/index.html
Oh well then!

I guess you will just have to live with a disappointment.
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Old 24th May 2018, 11:01 AM   #102
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Under Stalin in the USSR, forced patriotism was good enough for the people (and for cultural icons in particular), so why isn’t it good enough for American football players under the current leader?!

Quote:
under Communist leadership patriotism became a duty, a necessary prerequisite for success, with an obligatory component of praising the CPSU specifically, or at least Lenin and the current leader. (…) No one felt the pressure more than cultural icons of the day: writers, singers, directors, actors, etc.
Patriotism: A USSR Story (Russian Life, Sep. 11, 2013)

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Old 24th May 2018, 11:10 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Option 3: It was about a group of domestic elitists who objected to a "foreign" group of elitists being in charge when THEY wanted to be in charge.

Never forget that under the Founders' vision for America:
  • primogeniture was legal
Woo! Thank goodness we have banned primogeniture!
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Old 24th May 2018, 11:18 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Gender pronouns is a recent one. But basically the entire concept of political correctness is about policing speech.
In keeping with your position, it is incumbent upon you to ignore ISF membership rules entirely. Or make a nice argument about how "OMG, that's different." Either one, lotsa fun.
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Old 24th May 2018, 11:21 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Woo! Thank goodness we have banned primogeniture!
Err, have we? Is it illegal to leave all your belongings to your oldest son in the USA?
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Old 24th May 2018, 11:23 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Well, ...

I expect that if the NFL can be used by the players to make political protests, then the NFL will soon be expected to let the players make all sorts of other protests as well. And since the NFL makes it money from football games, as opposed to player protests, then I m sure that the NFL executives would prefer that the players do the job that they are paid to do instead of distract things from what they are being paid to do.
It sure would be awful if a group of workers (well-paid workers, but still workers) had the power to actually protest, wouldn't it?

Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
As for the protests being effective, I really do not think that is the case.
Which is why nobody is talking about the NFL protests right now.

Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
But in any event, if these players really want to protest things, then they are quite at liberty to do so.
Like bending the knee at the anthem?
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Old 24th May 2018, 11:36 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It sure would be awful if a group of workers (well-paid workers, but still workers) had the power to actually protest, wouldn't it?



Which is why nobody is talking about the NFL protests right now.



Like bending the knee at the anthem?
Please clarify:

Are you actually asking me anything?

Thanks.
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Old 24th May 2018, 01:13 PM   #108
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What is the point of forced patriotism?

I'm going to say a bayonet. Because nothing says "I love this country!" like the shiver that cold steel sends up your spine.
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Old 24th May 2018, 01:16 PM   #109
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Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori!
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Old 24th May 2018, 01:29 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Please clarify:

Are you actually asking me anything?

Thanks.
Could you at least answer the last question?
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Old 24th May 2018, 01:43 PM   #111
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Interesting that the conservatives in this thread (mostly) feel the move by the NFL was bad. Makes me wonder what the audience for this move is actually like.
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Old 24th May 2018, 01:58 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
That is a good point.

Playing the national anthem before a football game, a baseball game, a car race, etc. is not compulsory. At least not in the USA.
It is if you signed a contract to do it in exchange for a lot of cash.
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Old 24th May 2018, 02:13 PM   #113
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Thoughts and Prayers are the best you can do to stop killing children in schools but the moment a black person peacefully protest police brutality it's bans, fines, & demands to get out of the country.
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Old 24th May 2018, 02:15 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Interesting that the conservatives in this thread (mostly) feel the move by the NFL was bad. Makes me wonder what the audience for this move is actually like.
How are you counting conservatives?

In any case, this is a very unrepresentative sample.
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Old 24th May 2018, 05:06 PM   #115
LSSBB
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Will they follow the NASCAR lead and ban the Confederate Flag?

Flying the Confederate Flag is much more disrespectful than taking a knee.
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Old 24th May 2018, 05:24 PM   #116
Myles
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Wow!

I knew that DOD did sponsor things like race cars and such, but I had no idea that they were so involved.

Ugh! Another good example of our tax dollars at work.
Are they getting a good return for our money spent and what were they expecting anyway?
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Old 24th May 2018, 05:46 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Myles View Post
Are they getting a good return for our money spent and what were they expecting anyway?
It's advertising, which is important for recruitment.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
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Old 24th May 2018, 06:23 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
In keeping with your position, it is incumbent upon you to ignore ISF membership rules entirely. Or make a nice argument about how "OMG, that's different." Either one, lotsa fun.
Did I say that such attempts at control were a bad thing?

No, actually, I did not. I took no position in that regard. I only pointed out that both sides do it, which is true. Does recognizing this somehow bother you? It seems that way, else why straw man me?
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
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Old 24th May 2018, 07:36 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Could you at least answer the last question?
If you would please clarify that question, then I will do my best to answer it.
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Old 24th May 2018, 07:48 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
The anthem fetish is about small-minded people exerting dominance over others who they feel are inferior. In the case of the NFL it is racists, as someone else already said, showing those n-words who is boss. In the case of schools it is mainly about racists worried that immigrant and minority children won't be as patriotic as good ole white adults.
I say the Pledge every morning, so I'm more patriotic than you!

I say the Pledge TWICE every morning, and sing the national anthem, so I'm more patriotic than you!

Oh, yeah? I sign a loyalty oath, say the Pledge, wear red & white striped underwear and sing the national anthem before every meal, so I'm much more patriotic than you!!!
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