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Tags protest incidents , protest issues , sports incidents

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Old 25th May 2018, 10:50 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The controversy has become not about what the protestors are protesting, but the protest itself.
And, frankly, the snide attitude of the left toward any display of patriotism is playing into the hands of the right. This has been a piece of idiocy that has been going on for some time.
George Orwell had some interesting things to say about how in his day the left's sneering on patriotrism was backfiring.

Such as?


Who is doing this?
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Old 25th May 2018, 11:12 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The full on racists don't offend me much. At least it is a conscious choice. I'm really bothered by people that say the millionaires shouldn't be complaining. I can't wrap my head around the fact they can't even make it to a few steps of thought. They can't even speak to the concept that people with money are able and willing to emphasize with the plight of others.
"Others" isn't necessarily correct here.

Here's James Blake being tackled by NYPD out of nowhere.

Thabo Sefolosha's leg was broken by NYPD as well.

After police ordered people to leave a room in a casino that was cleared during an emergency, Seahawks playerMichael Bennet was attacked by the same police for...leaving the room.

And we've been discussing Sterling Brown's recent tasing over a parking ticket on this board.

But yes, this is about people who aren't famous, in addition to these and other cases.
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Old 25th May 2018, 11:30 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
George Orwell had some interesting things to say about how in his day the left's sneering on patriotrism was backfiring.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Patriotism in the US is 99% stupid:instead of actually doing something for your country, you attack whoever you think doesn't praise it enough.
And Bonespurs is the archetype of this phenomenon.

I think that dudalb should take a look at Orwell's distinction between nationalism (bad) and patriotism (good). I don't really agree with his attempt at trying to 'save' nationalism, but it is pretty obvious that US American patriotism is actually what he describes as nationalism.

Orwell on nationalism/patriotism:
The short version
The tl;dr version
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Old 25th May 2018, 11:59 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I think that dudalb should take a look at Orwell's distinction between nationalism (bad) and patriotism (good). I don't really agree with his attempt at trying to 'save' nationalism, but it is pretty obvious that US American patriotism is actually what he describes as nationalism.

Orwell on nationalism/patriotism:
The short version
The tl;dr version
I agree.
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Old 26th May 2018, 12:36 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
They are just doing it because the protests have been hurting their business, and they are only doing it to protect their revenues.

But that is not true. That is just their spin.


They have lost just as many viewers because of their harsh reactions to the protests (and their blackballing of the protesters) than because of the protests.

The former is never talked about by the owners because it wouldn't help what they are actually doing. Which is being rich white racist owners.

IIRC there was a poll that asked people why they quit watching the NFL and only 3% said it was because of protests.

Also, and I'm pretty sure someone already pointed this out earlier, but TV ratings in general are down. And if you account for the average that TV ratings in general are down you find that ratings for NFL were actually up!! And on top of that, revenues in general are up now compared to the 2 years before the protests were a thing.
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Old 26th May 2018, 01:36 AM   #166
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Here's some color photos from Nazi Germany. Note the prominent display of flags everywhere.
https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/col...-nazi-germany/

As a liberal, I don't "sneer" at excessive patriotism, it just scares me. I fully expect one of these days for there to be a military parade, with il Duce- er, Trump- looking on, stuffed in a bemedaled military uniform.

I do, however, sneer at his idiot supporters, which is about 40% of the country these days.

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Old 26th May 2018, 06:33 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
But that is not true. That is just their spin.


They have lost just as many viewers because of their harsh reactions to the protests (and their blackballing of the protesters) than because of the protests.

The former is never talked about by the owners because it wouldn't help what they are actually doing. Which is being rich white racist owners.

IIRC there was a poll that asked people why they quit watching the NFL and only 3% said it was because of protests.

Also, and I'm pretty sure someone already pointed this out earlier, but TV ratings in general are down. And if you account for the average that TV ratings in general are down you find that ratings for NFL were actually up!! And on top of that, revenues in general are up now compared to the 2 years before the protests were a thing.
Oh, make no mistake, the owners are using the "the protests are hurting our ratings and attendance" is mostly a smoke screen from the fact that the ratings and attendance issues are due to the fact that the product has been bad.
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Old 26th May 2018, 07:42 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
When an employee is on the clock, I don't think it's unreasonable for an employer to insist that they not engage in political speech contrary to the interests of the employer. It's much more problematic when employers try to regulate speech of employees outside of work hours, but that's not what's going on here.
Given the funding for this part of the entertainment appears to be from the government surely the government can't dictate a particular political stance can it? Sounds to me as if it is a breach of the USA government 1st amendment to fine someone for making an expression of difference?
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Old 26th May 2018, 11:20 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Given the funding for this part of the entertainment appears to be from the government surely the government can't dictate a particular political stance can it? Sounds to me as if it is a breach of the USA government 1st amendment to fine someone for making an expression of difference?
I'm glad you brought this up, because I have been wondering the same thing.

We know that institutions and businesses that accept government funding are required act in accord with government rules. Could it be argued to apply here as well?

For all those claiming that the NFL is a private business and therefore has the right to do what they want, then they need to stop taking government money.

Oh, I know, it's "advertising" money. But it's still government money being sent to private business. Call it a grant, a contract in exchange for services, or marketing, it's still government funding.
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Old 26th May 2018, 11:45 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
After police ordered people to leave a room in a casino that was cleared during an emergency, Seahawks playerMichael Bennet was attacked by the same police for...leaving the room..
I like this one the police said that the officer who detained Bennett did not have his body camera turned on at the time.

Isn't that always the way?

Even if it is they say it wasn't.
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Old 26th May 2018, 06:52 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Given the funding for this part of the entertainment appears to be from the government surely the government can't dictate a particular political stance can it? Sounds to me as if it is a breach of the USA government 1st amendment to fine someone for making an expression of difference?
The government didn't dictate anything. The NFL itself would levy the fines, and receive the revenue. Government wasn't involved in this decision, and won't be involved in the future except to possibly enforce a contract agreed to between the NFL and the players.
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Old 26th May 2018, 06:57 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
For all those claiming that the NFL is a private business and therefore has the right to do what they want, then they need to stop taking government money.

Oh, I know, it's "advertising" money. But it's still government money being sent to private business. Call it a grant, a contract in exchange for services, or marketing, it's still government funding.
No, they do not need to stop taking government money used to promote the military. There's nothing wrong with that. It is indeed a fee for services. The government sends money to private businesses all the time for goods and services. It's basically unavoidable.

The NFL has a problem with government funding, a massive one, but this isn't it. The real problem is the subsidization of stadiums by local governments. That's where the actual corruption comes in.
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Old 26th May 2018, 10:48 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Oh, make no mistake, the owners are using the "the protests are hurting our ratings and attendance" is mostly a smoke screen... from the fact that the ratings and attendance issues are due to the fact that the product has been bad.

While I don't disagree with your "from", I just want to point out that there are many other "from"s as well.
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Old 26th May 2018, 10:49 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I like this one the police said that the officer who detained Bennett did not have his body camera turned on at the time.

Isn't that always the way?

Even if it is they say it wasn't.

Unless it saves their asses. Then it's always on.
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Old 27th May 2018, 12:35 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
But that is not true. That is just their spin.

They have lost just as many viewers because of their harsh reactions to the protests (and their blackballing of the protesters) than because of the protests.

The former is never talked about by the owners because it wouldn't help what they are actually doing. Which is being rich white racist owners.

IIRC there was a poll that asked people why they quit watching the NFL and only 3% said it was because of protests.

Also, and I'm pretty sure someone already pointed this out earlier, but TV ratings in general are down. And if you account for the average that TV ratings in general are down you find that ratings for NFL were actually up!! And on top of that, revenues in general are up now compared to the 2 years before the protests were a thing.
The NFL is facing a variety of problems, and it is hard to determine which is responsible for their current situation. No matter how you slice it, there are fewer eyeballs watching the NFL on TV these days, and that is definitely a problem, as in the past the number of eyeballs always went up year over year.

Obviously the league is also dealing with another public relations disaster these days with the CTE issue, and I don't mind admitting that is as big or even more a factor in my decision to watch less football (both college and pro) than the kneeling for the anthem.

But I do suspect that the kneeling is hurting the league. You mention revenues; how much of the increase was built into the existing contracts with the TV networks? Because right now the NFL is looking squarely at lower rights fees in the future, and this at a time when there is likely to be labor strife over the medical issues.
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Old 27th May 2018, 01:25 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Your post certainly is illustrative of what the left thinks of this country.

The founders loved Jesus too!
Indeed, that is why they wrote a book about a human Jesus which eliminated any mention of a divine nature of the man. They loved the reality of a man called Jesus of Nazerene.

The Jefferson Bible(otherwise known as "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazerene"
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Old 27th May 2018, 01:35 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
... The NFL wants their dollars and Trump wants their votes.

Don't kid yourself, the only reason Trump wants their votes is because he's hand over fisting it transferring their dollars to his bank accounts.
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Old 27th May 2018, 09:27 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I like this one the police said that the officer who detained Bennett did not have his body camera turned on at the time.

Isn't that always the way?

Even if it is they say it wasn't.
Of course, and that's one reason why "body cams" alone aren't going to solve the issue, although they sometimes help individual cases. And neither will dashboard cameras.

(The other, as we've seen, is that man are happy to demonize anyone caught on camera being beaten or shot by police, so long as they have the wrong outfit/skin color/whatever, and many police unions are quite happy to help them along I'd argue the the DoJ should be involved, but I'm pretty sure Sessions dances with glee whenever a cop attacks a nonwhite person, and federal power is limited here anyway.)
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Old 27th May 2018, 10:29 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post

Obviously the league is also dealing with another public relations disaster these days with the CTE issue, and I don't mind admitting that is as big or even more a factor in my decision to watch less football (both college and pro) than the kneeling for the anthem.
I definitely agree with this. I like football (occasionally, 3 or 4 games a year and then playoffs) but knowing that their brains are being scrambled to an extent way past what I expected is sobering.

If I had a son, I would put him in chains before letting him play. Hell, just look at the non-head injuries in football. I have friends with knee, back, and neck issues just from high school football.

It won't end in my lifetime, obviously. Hopefully, it will slowly lose it's sheen.

ETA: This was a slight derail, but I think it is worth pointing out that the NFL is losing support for multiple reasons.
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Old 29th May 2018, 05:17 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
When an employee is on the clock, I don't think it's unreasonable for an employer to insist that they not engage in political speech contrary to the interests of the employer. It's much more problematic when employers try to regulate speech of employees outside of work hours, but that's not what's going on here.
And of course are required to back the political statements of their employer at all times and in all ways.

When will people learn that the NFL's "patriotism" is a fake as a testimonial on an infomercial?
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Old 29th May 2018, 05:19 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The controversy has become not about what the protestors are protesting, but the protest itself.
And, frankly, the snide attitude of the left toward any display of patriotism is playing into the hands of the right. This has been a piece of idiocy that has been going on for some time.
George Orwell had some interesting things to say about how in his day the left's sneering on patriotrism was backfiring.
Yep there is no way to fight nationalism, so embrace the nationalist fervor!
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Old 29th May 2018, 05:32 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The controversy has become not about what the protestors are protesting, but the protest itself.
And, frankly, the snide attitude of the left toward any display of patriotism is playing into the hands of the right. This has been a piece of idiocy that has been going on for some time.
George Orwell had some interesting things to say about how in his day the left's sneering on patriotrism was backfiring.
Of course that's what the controversy has become. It's not controversial that it's bad that black men are being murdered by police after all. And because that's actually still a norm, the wingnuts instead chose to focus on the means of protest. In turn, because the media is driven by profit, they play up the protest rather than the issue. That's just how it works.

But, we are still talking about it, and every time some tv-wingnut complains about uppity negroes bending the knee at the holy national anthem, everyone still recalls - however slightly - that all over the US, black men are being murdered by police.
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Old 30th May 2018, 10:11 AM   #183
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It occurred to me this morning that it would be awesome if there's a Jehovah Witness player somewhere in the NFL.
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Old 30th May 2018, 10:27 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
When an employee is on the clock, I don't think it's unreasonable for an employer to insist that they not engage in political speech contrary to the interests of the employer. It's much more problematic when employers try to regulate speech of employees outside of work hours, but that's not what's going on here.

Or political speech at all. The NFL isn't paying for TV coverage so idiot players can go out there and start their own talk show. Play football or get the F out. Why does this have to be so nefarious?

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course are required to back the political statements of their employer at all times and in all ways.

When will people learn that the NFL's "patriotism" is a fake as a testimonial on an infomercial?
In post #2, if I remember correctly. It's about money and has nothing at all to do with patriotism or racist team owners.

Money. Money Money. The end. Only the news media and people here are making it about social justice and politics. That's why it took them so long to do anything. They had to test the wind and see which way it was blowing, and as I said in the first post, the wind was blowing profits out of their pockets.
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Old 30th May 2018, 10:28 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Or political speech at all. The NFL isn't paying for TV coverage so idiot players can go out there and start their own talk show. Play football or get the F out. .
What does standing for the national anthem have to do with playing football?

I don't know any player who has shirked any responsibility to play football.
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Old 30th May 2018, 10:38 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
What does standing for the national anthem have to do with playing football?
For an answer this question, please refer to the below posting that was issued in this thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post12304088

Quote:
I don't know any player who has shirked any responsibility to play football.
Well, I know of several who have shirked their responsibility to play football.

After all, there have been some football strikes where football players have refused to play football.

I hope this helps.
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Old 30th May 2018, 10:43 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The full on racists don't offend me much. At least it is a conscious choice. I'm really bothered by people that say the millionaires shouldn't be complaining. I can't wrap my head around the fact they can't even make it to a few steps of thought. They can't even speak to the concept that people with money are able and willing to emphasize with the plight of others.
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Old 30th May 2018, 12:35 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
It occurred to me this morning that it would be awesome if there's a Jehovah Witness player somewhere in the NFL.
It would have to be secret. And Jehovah's Witness' are called that for a reason. They talk.

The film "Chariots of Fire" was about two English sprinters in the (1908?) Olympics. I forget what religion was discussed, but the slower sprinter wasn't, ran the 100m, and won. The other sprinter wouldn't run on a Sunday, though he was clearly the leader.

I'm not a fan of religion, (at all) but I do respect people who maintain their convictions. Religious hypocrites bother me far more than people who disagree.

ETA: I know this is kind of a derail, but I think religion and patriotism are connected. We train young kids from a young age to adhere to certain beliefs, without questioning it.
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Old 30th May 2018, 01:46 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I don't know any player who has shirked any responsibility to play football.
I'll have to assume you weren't watching the Cowboys. Good choice.
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Old 30th May 2018, 01:51 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The controversy has become not about what the protestors are protesting, but the protest itself.
No, it isn't. Reread this post:

Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I can't find the original video, and all I can find is twitter, but here's the link

https://twitter.com/TheLoveBel0w/sta...28452812427276

The question is: What are you angry about?

If they were taking a knee to protest the poor treatment of veterans, would you be mad?

Quote:
And, frankly, the snide attitude of the left toward any display of patriotism is playing into the hands of the right. This has been a piece of idiocy that has been going on for some time.
George Orwell had some interesting things to say about how in his day the left's sneering on patriotrism was backfiring.
I was buying a swimsuit for the upcoming hellferno we call summer and picked out an American flag one. Didn't really like it that much until my daughter asked if it came with a MAGA hat. I said hell no and got the flag swimsuit. I love my country. I love my flag. It is great and it doesn't need to be "made great again."
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Old 2nd June 2018, 12:27 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
...I was buying a swimsuit for the upcoming hellferno we call summer and picked out an American flag one. Didn't really like it that much until my daughter asked if it came with a MAGA hat. I said hell no and got the flag swimsuit. I love my country. I love my flag. It is great and it doesn't need to be "made great again."
I, personally, have no problem with anyone wearing a U.S. Flag emblem, design or pattern. That said, I'm sure you would agree with me that there is a difference, between wearing such as a symbol of the wearer's feelings regarding the United States, and somehow pretending that wearing that design or symbol should in any way confer upon the wearer any measure of respect or deference for themselves much less their personal behavior, actions or expressed opinions while wearing those images.

IOW, I have no problem with people showing their pride in being American (or who just like to style US Flag patterns and colors), as long as they aren't wrapping their personal or group prejudices in the flag as a way to shield themselves or their opinions from critical examination or reproach.
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Old 7th June 2018, 10:50 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
But that is not true. That is just their spin.


They have lost just as many viewers because of their harsh reactions to the protests (and their blackballing of the protesters) than because of the protests.

The former is never talked about by the owners because it wouldn't help what they are actually doing. Which is being rich white racist owners.

IIRC there was a poll that asked people why they quit watching the NFL and only 3% said it was because of protests.

Also, and I'm pretty sure someone already pointed this out earlier, but TV ratings in general are down. And if you account for the average that TV ratings in general are down you find that ratings for NFL were actually up!! And on top of that, revenues in general are up now compared to the 2 years before the protests were a thing.


The results from a large poll pretty much confirm all of that. (As anyone looking at the entire issue without bias would guess.)

Here's the funny part (paraphrased from a tweet, this BB does not support tweets):


The majority of Republicans say the kneeling players are unpatriotic. ALL OTHER party, gender, education, age, racial, etc. groups say it is not unpatriotic.


https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...-anthem-630380

Quote:
By a 58 percent to 35 percent margin, those surveyed in a Quinnipiac University poll voiced disagreement with the notion that players who, during games, protest police shootings of unarmed black men are disrespectful of America. A majority of voters, 53 percent, also offered support for athletes’ right to protest on their playing fields and courts, while 43 percent expressed opposition.

**** Republicans and their lying. I'm sick of it. And it's worse than lying. They try and rewrite history.

The only way corporations can stay in power is by lying to people about patriotism, guns, abortion, and religion.

We really need to divide this country in half. **** them. It is unfixable.
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Old 8th June 2018, 02:23 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
The results from a large poll pretty much confirm all of that. (As anyone looking at the entire issue without bias would guess.)

Here's the funny part (paraphrased from a tweet, this BB does not support tweets):


The majority of Republicans say the kneeling players are unpatriotic. ALL OTHER party, gender, education, age, racial, etc. groups say it is not unpatriotic.


https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...-anthem-630380




**** Republicans and their lying. I'm sick of it. And it's worse than lying. They try and rewrite history.

The only way corporations can stay in power is by lying to people about patriotism, guns, abortion, and religion.

We really need to divide this country in half. **** them. It is unfixable.
Why are you wanting to give half of the country to (at most) 1/3 of the population (or in some considerations, less than 1%)? "Both sides" are not equal, ...or even close.
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Old 8th June 2018, 03:27 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
The results from a large poll pretty much confirm all of that. (As anyone looking at the entire issue without bias would guess.)

Here's the funny part (paraphrased from a tweet, this BB does not support tweets):


The majority of Republicans say the kneeling players are unpatriotic. ALL OTHER party, gender, education, age, racial, etc. groups say it is not unpatriotic.


https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...-anthem-630380




**** Republicans and their lying. I'm sick of it. And it's worse than lying. They try and rewrite history.

The only way corporations can stay in power is by lying to people about patriotism, guns, abortion, and religion.

We really need to divide this country in half. **** them. It is unfixable.
Agreed, it’s going to end very badly.
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Old 8th June 2018, 04:46 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
The only way corporations can stay in power is by lying to people about patriotism, guns, abortion, and religion.
I'm not sure what lies corporations are telling about patriotism Attitudes about patriotism seem to be driven by factors other than what corporations are saying. They follow these attitudes, they don't lead them.

And in general, large corporations are not pro-gun rights, they are pro-abortion rights, and they are indifferent at best to religion. Large corporations are natural constituents of the Democratic party, not the Republican party. It's only small businesses which are natural constituents of the Republican party.
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Old 8th June 2018, 05:42 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Agreed, it’s going to end very badly.
How typical. You know you're coming to a bad end, yet you refuse to change course.
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Old 8th June 2018, 06:07 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
How typical. You know you're coming to a bad end, yet you refuse to change course.
Who should have changed course prior to the American Civil War? The North or the South? Most people would probably say the South, based on either the North being right on the issue or the North being the ultimate victor in the conflict.

But everybody thinks they are right, and if there were another civil war, it's not clear logger's side would lose. So he can say with equal justification that you should change course.
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Old 8th June 2018, 06:12 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Who should have changed course prior to the American Civil War? The North or the South? Most people would probably say the South, based on either the North being right on the issue or the North being the ultimate victor in the conflict.

But everybody thinks they are right, and if there were another civil war, it's not clear logger's side would lose. So he can say with equal justification that you should change course.
The winners of a second American civil war would be Russia and China.

They will divide up the corpse.
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Old 8th June 2018, 06:42 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
The winners of a second American civil war would be Russia and China.

They will divide up the corpse.
They will divide up influence in the world that we would lose. But they are not in a position to invade the US, even after a civil war.
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Old 8th June 2018, 06:45 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
The winners of a second American civil war would be Russia and China.

They will divide up the corpse.
Kind of like how the winners of the first war were England and France, and they divided up the American corpse in 1886 or thereabouts?
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