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Tags protest incidents , protest issues , sports incidents

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Old 8th June 2018, 08:23 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
They will divide up influence in the world that we would lose. But they are not in a position to invade the US, even after a civil war.
They wouldn't need to "invade". Just infiltrate and indoctrinate, like they've been doing.
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Old 8th June 2018, 08:25 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Kind of like how the winners of the first war were England and France, and they divided up the American corpse in 1886 or thereabouts?
Is that your hope?

No. It wouldn't be like that at all.
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Old 8th June 2018, 09:55 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
Why are you wanting to give half of the country to (at most) 1/3 of the population (or in some considerations, less than 1%)? "Both sides" are not equal, ...or even close.


You're assuming by half I meant land size?

I say go county by county and do the weirdest looking country split in history. It's the future. We can handle the logistics.
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Old 8th June 2018, 10:01 AM   #204
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I'm not sure its forced patriotism but forced nationalism.
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Old 8th June 2018, 10:03 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Doesnít look like weíll ever get rid of people who love this country. Itíd be so much easier if the people who donít even like it would just leave.
"The difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does, and the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does; the first attitude creates a feeling of responsibility, but the second a feeling of blind arrogance that leads to war." - Sydney Harris
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Old 8th June 2018, 10:14 AM   #206
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Someone else put it:
Patriotism is based on love of one country, Nationalism on hatred of other countires.
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Old 8th June 2018, 06:32 PM   #207
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I think the right wing would be surprised that not everyone that comes out of the armed forces is gung ho to shed liberal blood.
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Old 8th June 2018, 10:27 PM   #208
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Here is why we need to fight this

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...rce=reddit.com

Quote:
The moves follow a “law on Islam”, passed in 2015, which banned foreign funding of religious groups and created a duty for Muslim organizations to have “a positive fundamental view towards (Austria’s) state and society”.
There are forces out there that once they achieve ability to demand respect, they will use violence to enforce it.
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Old 8th June 2018, 10:45 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
"The difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does, and the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does; the first attitude creates a feeling of responsibility, but the second a feeling of blind arrogance that leads to war." - Sydney Harris

The similarity between patriotism and nationalism is that they are both proud of their country.
The mistake of patriotism and nationalism is that they are proud of their country.
There is no good version of nationalistic patriotism or patriotic nationalism.
That patriotism is somehow better is The Nationalist's Delusion (The Atlantic).
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Old 9th June 2018, 02:59 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
"The difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does, and the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does; the first attitude creates a feeling of responsibility, but the second a feeling of blind arrogance that leads to war." - Sydney Harris

"My country, right or wrong"? What are you talking about? My country is always right.
Paraphrased from a nationalistic rival to Captain America created in the `80s. Super Patriot/Captain America V/U.S.Agent.
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Old 10th June 2018, 02:16 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I think the right wing would be surprised that not everyone that comes out of the armed forces is gung ho to shed liberal blood.
Certainly but they will defend their right to not be forced into the filth of the left.
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Old 10th June 2018, 03:07 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Certainly but they will defend their right to not be forced into the filth of the left.
Or forcing people to stand for the anthem - it was a veteran who recommended taking the knee to Kapernick. Hundreds more veterans have signalled support through Twitter and Facebook - stating that peaceful protest was exactly the sort of thing they had fought for.
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Old 10th June 2018, 03:37 PM   #213
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'The filth of the left'.

The fascists are so emotional. Fighting against freedoms. The 'Righteous Right'tm really do want to destroy their country.
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Old 10th June 2018, 06:33 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The similarity between patriotism and nationalism is that they are both proud of their country.
The mistake of patriotism and nationalism is that they are proud of their country.
There is no good version of nationalistic patriotism or patriotic nationalism.
That patriotism is somehow better is The Nationalist's Delusion (The Atlantic).
I can imagine that if I lived in some European countries, I would not find much to be proud of in my country's history. Germans don't have a lot to look back proudly on, nor do the French, the Russians and the Spaniards.

The Greeks, Italians (Rome) and Egyptians obviously contributed a great deal to our modern culture.

Now the English clearly have a fair amount to answer for, but at the same time, I think we can safely say that they have much to be proud of. They basically destroyed the slave trade, stopped piracy on the high seas and ended the practice of suttee in India. Magna Carta is the foundational document for constitutions everywhere.

I live in the US. We have a lot to be proud of and a fair amount to be ashamed of. But I will say this; some of my pride is in the fact that we have overcome much of the history for which we deserve shame. Like the English I think the balance overall is positive.

Am I proud of my country? Sure. Am I patriotic? Yes, sir! Would I rather have been born a citizen of another country? No, thanks.
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Old 10th June 2018, 07:07 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Am I proud of my country? Sure. Am I patriotic? Yes, sir! Would I rather have been born a citizen of another country? No, thanks.
Me too! And I'm a veteran to boot. And a liberal. And for some reason, some here think that means I hate America and want to see it fail.
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Old 10th June 2018, 07:23 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I can imagine that if I lived in some European countries, I would not find much to be proud of in my country's history. Germans don't have a lot to look back proudly on, nor do the French, the Russians and the Spaniards.

The Greeks, Italians (Rome) and Egyptians obviously contributed a great deal to our modern culture.

Now the English clearly have a fair amount to answer for, but at the same time, I think we can safely say that they have much to be proud of. They basically destroyed the slave trade, stopped piracy on the high seas and ended the practice of suttee in India. Magna Carta is the foundational document for constitutions everywhere.

I live in the US. We have a lot to be proud of and a fair amount to be ashamed of. But I will say this; some of my pride is in the fact that we have overcome much of the history for which we deserve shame. Like the English I think the balance overall is positive. Well, in all fairness, the French were doing it to.

Am I proud of my country? Sure. Am I patriotic? Yes, sir! Would I rather have been born a citizen of another country? No, thanks.
The English destroyed the slave trade? Surely ye jest. Read about the slave triangle. There NEVER would have been slaves in America if the British hadn't been running the slave trade to the colonies.
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Old 10th June 2018, 08:13 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Me too! And I'm a veteran to boot. And a liberal. And for some reason, some here think that means I hate America and want to see it fail.
I have never fallen for that particular trope on either side. Both liberals and conservatives genuinely desire the same thing--to provide for a better future for America. They disagree on the methods, obviously. Liberals are the gas pedals on the car, and conservatives are the brakes. Without the gas, you don't get anywhere; without the brakes you quickly crash and burn.

But at the same time, both parties have a powerful motivation to demonize the other side. It serves to keep the restive flanks in line, and talking past each other, without ever trying to connect.
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Old 11th June 2018, 12:59 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I have never fallen for that particular trope on either side. Both liberals and conservatives genuinely desire the same thing--to provide for a better future for America. They disagree on the methods, obviously. Liberals are the gas pedals on the car, and conservatives are the brakes. Without the gas, you don't get anywhere; without the brakes you quickly crash and burn.

But at the same time, both parties have a powerful motivation to demonize the other side. It serves to keep the restive flanks in line, and talking past each other, without ever trying to connect.
That's how it used to be. It's not how it is today. At least if you want to call the Republican party "conservative".

Instead you have one party with a "gas" wing and a "break" wing, and another party who have convinced themselves that the car works better without a steering wheel.

You would do well to go back to your old ways. Call me a conservative when it comes to conservative politics.
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Old 11th June 2018, 06:31 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I think the right wing would be surprised that not everyone that comes out of the armed forces is gung ho to shed liberal blood.
Yep.

Originally Posted by logger View Post
Certainly but they will defend their right to not be forced into the filth of the left.
We'll also defend everyone's right not to be disenfranchised by the right. "The people" in that "by the people, for the people" means all the people, not just select groups.

Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Me too! And I'm a veteran to boot. And a liberal. And for some reason, some here think that means I hate America and want to see it fail.
Yep. My twenty years and Bronze Star medal are just part of my leftist cover story to deflect suspicion.
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Old 11th June 2018, 06:42 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The English destroyed the slave trade? Surely ye jest. Read about the slave triangle. There NEVER would have been slaves in America if the British hadn't been running the slave trade to the colonies.
Those two things are not contradictory.
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Old 11th June 2018, 07:04 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Those two things are not contradictory.
Indeed. We should totally give them historical credit for finishing up the rape slightly earlier than some of the other rapists. Truly heroic behavior, monuments earned!
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Old 11th June 2018, 07:34 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The English destroyed the slave trade? Surely ye jest.
No. He is correct. The movement to abolish slavery world-wide was largely led by English abolitionists.

Quote:
Read about the slave triangle. There NEVER would have been slaves in America if the British hadn't been running the slave trade to the colonies.
That isn't true either. First off, there was slavery in America even before Europeans arrived. Various native American tribes would capture slaves from enemy tribes. Second, European settlers also enslaved native Americans. Third, indentured servitude, often of other Europeans, was basically a form of slavery.
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Old 11th June 2018, 08:14 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. He is correct. The movement to abolish slavery world-wide was largely led by English abolitionists.



That isn't true either. First off, there was slavery in America even before Europeans arrived. Various native American tribes would capture slaves from enemy tribes. Second, European settlers also enslaved native Americans. Third, indentured servitude, often of other Europeans, was basically a form of slavery.
Surely, slavery in Native American tribes is irrelevant to slavery in the United States or the colonies?
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Old 11th June 2018, 10:54 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Now the English clearly have a fair amount to answer for, but at the same time, I think we can safely say that they have much to be proud of. They basically destroyed the slave trade, stopped piracy on the high seas and ended the practice of suttee in India. Magna Carta is the foundational document for constitutions everywhere.

I live in the US. We have a lot to be proud of and a fair amount to be ashamed of. But I will say this; some of my pride is in the fact that we have overcome much of the history for which we deserve shame. Like the English I think the balance overall is positive.

Am I proud of my country? Sure. Am I patriotic? Yes, sir! Would I rather have been born a citizen of another country? No, thanks.

Yes, I can see that I ought to be mighty proud of my Danish citizenship:

Quote:
Denmark-Norway was the first European country to ban the slave trade. This happened with a decree issued by king Christian VII of Denmark in 1792, to become fully effective by 1803. Slavery as an institution was not banned until 1848.
History of slavery: Modern era (Wikipedia)

But for some reason, the descendants of enslaved Africans aren’t particularly grateful, and I can see why in the poem Reparations (p. 35 of the anthology: All This Is Love: A Collection of Virgin Islands Poetry, Art & Prose).

So am I proud to be a Danish citizen? No, not at all. Would I have been proud of my nationality if I'd been an American?

Am I ashamed to be a citizen of Denmark? No, not at all. I didn't have much influence on it: It just happens to be the place I was born.
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Old 11th June 2018, 10:58 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Indeed. We should totally give them historical credit for finishing up the rape slightly earlier than some of the other rapists. Truly heroic behavior, monuments earned!

Once again, Daisy Holder Lafond's poem Reparations.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th June 2018, 11:04 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The English destroyed the slave trade? Surely ye jest. Read about the slave triangle. There NEVER would have been slaves in America if the British hadn't been running the slave trade to the colonies.
At one point, yes, the British were involved in the slave trade. But they effectively destroyed the slave trade later, starting in 1808.
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Old 11th June 2018, 11:12 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Surely, slavery in Native American tribes is irrelevant to slavery in the United States or the colonies?
It's not causative, but it's illustrative. Slavery is not an English practice, it's a human practice.
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Old 11th June 2018, 11:13 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
So the NFL is going to start punishing players and teams that don't partake in mandatory political messaging before games. On social media conservatives are hailing the decision with comments that seem to best be summarized as "Yes, make them stand!"

"Make them stand?"

What is the point when the key action in that sentence is the word "make"? As in, take away choice.

All through the NFL protest blowup I never was able to figure out why conservatives want forced patriotism. Is it proper to even still call it "patriotism" at that point. After all we don't call rape "forced sex" because we understand that the "forced" part makes it not even a form of sex at all. Similarly shouldn't there be a new term for when someone stands for the anthem but not because they think America is without fault but because they face punishment if they do not.

And, more to the point, why do so many people love the idea of forced patriotism? Is it a power trip? A way to force someone else to do something you want not what they want?
I see you aren't wearing a flag pin, citizen! What are you, a Muslim terrorist?

I hope your SUV has a magnetic Support Our Troops sticker on it. Otherwise, I might feel compelled to contact DHS. You do have an SUV, right? Right?!?

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Old 11th June 2018, 11:15 AM   #229
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Any negroes who do not stand for the National Anthem should be waterboarded for Jesus.
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Old 11th June 2018, 12:03 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
That's how it used to be. It's not how it is today. At least if you want to call the Republican party "conservative".

Instead you have one party with a "gas" wing and a "break" wing, and another party who have convinced themselves that the car works better without a steering wheel.

You would do well to go back to your old ways. Call me a conservative when it comes to conservative politics.
I am perpetually amused by the nostalgia for old-time conservatives. I suppose it's natural; conservatives used to be known for losing elections. The Democrats controlled the House of Representatives from 1933-1995 with the exception of four years, and the Senate for many of those same years.
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Old 11th June 2018, 12:06 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's not causative, but it's illustrative. Slavery is not an English practice, it's a human practice.
Oh. Well, might as well have mentioned the ancient Greeks, if that was your point.

Yeah, duh. Lotsa people enslaved other people. Thanks for the reminder.
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Old 11th June 2018, 12:09 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I am perpetually amused by the nostalgia for old-time conservatives. I suppose it's natural; conservatives used to be known for losing elections. The Democrats controlled the House of Representatives from 1933-1995 with the exception of four years, and the Senate for many of those same years.
No, the Republicans used to be known for certain principles. Some of those I agreed with, while others I did not, but you knew where the party as a whole stood.

Now they stand with a man who has no principles at all and as a result, the question of where Republicans stand (aside from "with Trump") is utterly unclear. And that's a damned shame. Because consistent principles matter.
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Old 11th June 2018, 12:26 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I am perpetually amused by the nostalgia for old-time conservatives. I suppose it's natural; conservatives used to be known for losing elections. The Democrats controlled the House of Representatives from 1933-1995 with the exception of four years, and the Senate for many of those same years.
Well I am an atheist but this seems appropriate:

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?


The Republican party decided it couldn't win within the system, so it broke the system and then was shocked by the rise of the likes of Trump and the Tea party.
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Old 11th June 2018, 05:12 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
No, the Republicans used to be known for certain principles. Some of those I agreed with, while others I did not, but you knew where the party as a whole stood.

Now they stand with a man who has no principles at all and as a result, the question of where Republicans stand (aside from "with Trump") is utterly unclear. And that's a damned shame. Because consistent principles matter.
Principles. So old fashioned. The New Republicans are all about Winning! Nostalgia for Principles is loser talk!
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Old 11th June 2018, 08:39 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
No, the Republicans used to be known for certain principles. Some of those I agreed with, while others I did not, but you knew where the party as a whole stood.

Now they stand with a man who has no principles at all and as a result, the question of where Republicans stand (aside from "with Trump") is utterly unclear. And that's a damned shame. Because consistent principles matter.
This is so ridiculous! When the GOP had principles your side complained endlessly about it. Now that they donít have principles, your side complains about it. That makes it obvious itís just politics.
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Old 11th June 2018, 08:51 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
...The Democrats controlled the House of Representatives from 1933-1995 with the exception of four years, and the Senate for many of those same years.
Pretty darn good run. #MAGA

Even if that is very misleading. Southern Democrats were conservatives, so much so that that strain of politician now flies the Stars and Bars and votes Trump.
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Old 11th June 2018, 08:56 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm not sure what lies corporations are telling about patriotism Attitudes about patriotism seem to be driven by factors other than what corporations are saying. They follow these attitudes, they don't lead them.

And in general, large corporations are not pro-gun rights, they are pro-abortion rights, and they are indifferent at best to religion. Large corporations are natural constituents of the Democratic party, not the Republican party. It's only small businesses which are natural constituents of the Republican party.

And the GOP routinely screws over small businesses, in spite of all their campaign posturing.
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Old 11th June 2018, 08:59 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Here is why we need to fight this

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...rce=reddit.com



There are forces out there that once they achieve ability to demand respect, they will use violence to enforce it.
I predict we'll see a Trump-Kurz bromance before too long.
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Old 11th June 2018, 09:16 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Here is why we need to fight this

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...rce=reddit.com



There are forces out there that once they achieve ability to demand respect, they will use violence to enforce it.

"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason? Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason."
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Old 11th June 2018, 10:03 PM   #240
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Interesting that logger acknowledges that the GOP "donít have principles."
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