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Old 4th June 2018, 07:12 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Sorry, but I really cannot follow what it is that you are trying to say.

So if you want me to respond, then please clarify your question.

Thanks much.
That the kind of concerns over negligent shooting are unimportant to most gun buyers, the focus in on every tenth of a second in getting the first shot off. So it makes no sense to carry with out a round chambered. That is why no one wants guns with safeties on them anymore.

So by classifying this as solely personal negligence with out accepting the kind of common safety mechanisms to counter act personal negligence in all other consumer goods that firearms are exempted from it takes away discussion of engineering solutions to these kinds of discharges, like safeties.

Guns are specifically exempted from the law that lets the government issue mandatory recalls after all.
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Old 4th June 2018, 07:13 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
I have watched the video and I suggest that you do so as well.

From what I can tell, is that the agent did a back-flip and while he was upside-down, the weapon flopped out of the holster and fell to the ground very near the agent.

Then when upright, the agent quickly recovered the weapon and during this time his finger pressed the trigger and the one shot was fired.
The video shows him grabbing it and it firing, the assumption is that he hit the trigger. The video is not clear enough that I have seen to gauge finger position on it.
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Old 4th June 2018, 07:47 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Can you see the gun recoil when it fires?
Yes, the gun does recoil when it is fired.

But then again, all guns recoil when they are fired, so I am not sure what your question is.
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Old 4th June 2018, 07:55 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That the kind of concerns over negligent shooting are unimportant to most gun buyers, the focus in on every tenth of a second in getting the first shot off. So it makes no sense to carry with out a round chambered. That is why no one wants guns with safeties on them anymore.

So by classifying this as solely personal negligence with out accepting the kind of common safety mechanisms to counter act personal negligence in all other consumer goods that firearms are exempted from it takes away discussion of engineering solutions to these kinds of discharges, like safeties.

Guns are specifically exempted from the law that lets the government issue mandatory recalls after all.
Sorry if I sound dense, but I still do not follow what you are trying to say.

I think that all commercial guns which have been made for the last several decades have some sort of safety mechanism incorporated into them. Therefore, when you start discussing why no one wants a gun that does not have a safety, that really makes no sense at all.

As for me, all of the guns that I have purchased have safety mechanisms incorporated into them and I have known many other people who have purchased guns with safety mechanisms into them as well.
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Old 4th June 2018, 07:57 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The video shows him grabbing it and it firing, the assumption is that he hit the trigger. The video is not clear enough that I have seen to gauge finger position on it.
I agree the video is not of high quality, but it sure looked to me as if the gun was fired due to the agent pressing the trigger with his trigger finger.

But in any case, the gun was clearly fired after he took the gun into his hand, therefore it is quite safe to say that the gun was fired as a result of how the agent handled the gun after he recovered it.
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Old 4th June 2018, 08:30 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Yes, the gun does recoil when it is fired.

But then again, all guns recoil when they are fired, so I am not sure what your question is.
The laws of physics cannot be put on suspension.

FBI agents, on the other hand...
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Old 4th June 2018, 08:45 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Sorry if I sound dense, but I still do not follow what you are trying to say.

I think that all commercial guns which have been made for the last several decades have some sort of safety mechanism incorporated into them. Therefore, when you start discussing why no one wants a gun that does not have a safety, that really makes no sense at all.

As for me, all of the guns that I have purchased have safety mechanisms incorporated into them and I have known many other people who have purchased guns with safety mechanisms into them as well.
Glocks for example, only a trigger safety. With the prevalence of glock leg it is clear that safety is not a huge concern relative to getting that half second of speed from not having any other kind of safety. Like a grip safety or a lever or button.

And that is ignoring that sometimes guns even with those safeties go off when the safeties are engaged.

"Haney kept Googling. He learned that the repair-or-replace offer was the result of the 2016 settlement of a class-action lawsuit brought by Chris Carter, a deputy in the Scott County, Iowa, sheriff’s department, against Brazilian gunmaker Forjas Taurus SA and two of its Florida-based units. In July 2013, Carter’s suit claimed, he was running down a suspected drug dealer when his Taurus PT-140 Millennium Pro pistol fell out of the holster at his hip, hit the ground, and fired, sending a slug into a nearby car...

Two days later, Wheeles and another Birmingham lawyer, David Selby, were sitting at the Browns’ kitchen table. Wheeles showed them how the Taurus gun that killed Jarred would fire, even with the safety on. “In about 10 seconds he showed us three different ways that gun could go off on its own,” Sonie says."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...-t-be-recalled
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Old 4th June 2018, 08:47 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
I agree the video is not of high quality, but it sure looked to me as if the gun was fired due to the agent pressing the trigger with his trigger finger.

But in any case, the gun was clearly fired after he took the gun into his hand, therefore it is quite safe to say that the gun was fired as a result of how the agent handled the gun after he recovered it.
Yes it was something about the way he grabbed it that caused the gun to go off. It also means the gun was apt to fire when grabbed.
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Old 4th June 2018, 09:48 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Glocks for example, only a trigger safety. With the prevalence of glock leg it is clear that safety is not a huge concern relative to getting that half second of speed from not having any other kind of safety. Like a grip safety or a lever or button.
.....

Question: Why would anyone, and particularly any civilian, feel the need to carry a semi-auto with a round in the chamber? Under what circumstances would it be necessary to open fire before you had time to rack the slide? How often do such circumstances occur?

Here's someone who contends that chamber-empty carry was the standard for most of the history of semi-autos:
Quote:
Chamber empty carry was the dominant method of carry for military, police, and civilians for most of the 20th Century. Toward the end of the century the rise of double-action autoloaders and the influence of Jeff Cooper’s Modern Technique made significant inroads, although chamber empty is still the dominant method of carry worldwide.
https://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot....ry-or-why.html
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Old 4th June 2018, 10:13 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
The laws of physics cannot be put on suspension.

FBI agents, on the other hand...
Quite true!

I am sure that this agent is having to deal with some very serious problems right now.
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Old 4th June 2018, 10:14 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Glocks for example, only a trigger safety. With the prevalence of glock leg it is clear that safety is not a huge concern relative to getting that half second of speed from not having any other kind of safety. Like a grip safety or a lever or button.

And that is ignoring that sometimes guns even with those safeties go off when the safeties are engaged.

"Haney kept Googling. He learned that the repair-or-replace offer was the result of the 2016 settlement of a class-action lawsuit brought by Chris Carter, a deputy in the Scott County, Iowa, sheriff’s department, against Brazilian gunmaker Forjas Taurus SA and two of its Florida-based units. In July 2013, Carter’s suit claimed, he was running down a suspected drug dealer when his Taurus PT-140 Millennium Pro pistol fell out of the holster at his hip, hit the ground, and fired, sending a slug into a nearby car...

Two days later, Wheeles and another Birmingham lawyer, David Selby, were sitting at the Browns’ kitchen table. Wheeles showed them how the Taurus gun that killed Jarred would fire, even with the safety on. “In about 10 seconds he showed us three different ways that gun could go off on its own,” Sonie says."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...-t-be-recalled
OK. Thanks for the clarification.

It sounds to me as if you are saying that there may be a problem with the trigger safety system that is used on the Glocks (which are often used by law enforcement) as opposed to the guns not having a safety system at all (which is what you were originally saying).

If so, then you may be right.

But then again, I am sure that you are aware that people constantly have bad accidents with guns which have a more conventional safety system.
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Old 4th June 2018, 10:19 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yes it was something about the way he grabbed it that caused the gun to go off. It also means the gun was apt to fire when grabbed.
I am not surprised that the gun fired when the trigger was pulled. After all, that is just what guns are supposed to do.

However, considering that the agent in question was off-duty at the time, then I am surprised that he was carrying his service weapon in such a way that it was ready to fire by a trigger pull. I did not expect an off-duty agent to carry his service weapon in such a state.
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Old 4th June 2018, 10:23 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Question: Why would anyone, and particularly any civilian, feel the need to carry a semi-auto with a round in the chamber? Under what circumstances would it be necessary to open fire before you had time to rack the slide? How often do such circumstances occur?

Here's someone who contends that chamber-empty carry was the standard for most of the history of semi-autos:

https://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot....ry-or-why.html
It's a crap article making several historical mistakes the biggest being his comments on Browning's model 1911 pistol. Despite what the blogger says, the 1911 was specifically designed to carry "cocked and locked" meaning, a round in the chamber and the single-action hammer back. It was designed with a grip safety which did not activate until the pistol was held correctly, and a manual thumb safety. Over a hundred years later and it's still the safest pistol design around, IMO.
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Old 4th June 2018, 10:39 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Question: Why would anyone, and particularly any civilian, feel the need to carry a semi-auto with a round in the chamber? Under what circumstances would it be necessary to open fire before you had time to rack the slide? How often do such circumstances occur?
Come on nothing about american gun culture is based remotely on statistics about what makes you safer. It is fear driven and with the idea that you know what you are doing and so your behavior will make you safe, these "negligent" discharges only happen to other people, or you are better now and it won't happen to you.
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Old 4th June 2018, 10:47 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
It's a crap article making several historical mistakes the biggest being his comments on Browning's model 1911 pistol. Despite what the blogger says, the 1911 was specifically designed to carry "cocked and locked" meaning, a round in the chamber and the single-action hammer back. It was designed with a grip safety which did not activate until the pistol was held correctly, and a manual thumb safety. Over a hundred years later and it's still the safest pistol design around, IMO.
Great. He's a sloppy historian (although he seems to be correct about the "Israeli carry" doctrine). What about the larger question: Why carry with a loaded chamber? How often does a quick-draw shootout scenario occur, vs. an accidental/negligent shooting?
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Old 4th June 2018, 11:30 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
OK. Thanks for the clarification.

It sounds to me as if you are saying that there may be a problem with the trigger safety system that is used on the Glocks (which are often used by law enforcement) as opposed to the guns not having a safety system at all (which is what you were originally saying).

If so, then you may be right.

But then again, I am sure that you are aware that people constantly have bad accidents with guns which have a more conventional safety system.
Maybe but of course being exempt to recalls and such even when the safeties fail and are a danger there isn't anything the government can do, they are exempt from government mandated recalls.

The general impression I have is that safety isn't a serious selling point in hand guns.
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Old 4th June 2018, 11:32 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
I am not surprised that the gun fired when the trigger was pulled. After all, that is just what guns are supposed to do.

However, considering that the agent in question was off-duty at the time, then I am surprised that he was carrying his service weapon in such a way that it was ready to fire by a trigger pull. I did not expect an off-duty agent to carry his service weapon in such a state.
I am surprised that it fired in that situation, at the least I would have expected a heavy initial DA trigger pull as some kind of safety effect. I wouldn't have expected that to go off by being just grabbed.

How careful are you when you pick up a gun you drop in a crowd, vs getting the weapon under control as fast as possible?
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Old 4th June 2018, 11:35 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Great. He's a sloppy historian (although he seems to be correct about the "Israeli carry" doctrine). What about the larger question: Why carry with a loaded chamber? How often does a quick-draw shootout scenario occur, vs. an accidental/negligent shooting?
Look the gun is always far more likely to be negligently discharged and hit an innocent or used in a domestic violence situation rather than protect against the random stranger people carry them for. If you start bringing in statistics into the debate the whole thing looks silly fast, like claiming it is better to be thrown clear from a car accident so you don't burn alive.

Sure it happens but isn't statistically a good reason not to wear your seatbelt.
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Old 4th June 2018, 12:18 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Great. He's a sloppy historian (although he seems to be correct about the "Israeli carry" doctrine). What about the larger question: Why carry with a loaded chamber? How often does a quick-draw shootout scenario occur, vs. an accidental/negligent shooting?
If the pistol is designed safely, then any time that there are fewer conscious/physical steps between fully holstered/concealed, presenting and possibly firing, the better. Glocks and a huge percentage of pistols nowadays are striker-fired pistols which are not a very safe design; I would therefore agree that the extra conscious/physical step of racking the slide before firing is a good thing.
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Old 4th June 2018, 12:56 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I haven't watched the video. When the gun fires do we see it recoil in an expected way? Or, does he have it held (as if intentionally firing) so that there is no uncontrolled recoil?

Maybe it fell out of the holster because a strap had been unsnapped?
He pulls the trigger when he picks it up.

It's likely a Glock, that has no affirmative safety, and is widely advertised as being safe to carry with a round in the chamber.

But it's really not safe.

Here's another Glock going off unexpectedly, this guy doesn't pull the trigger, though. Some part of his clothing, belt, or the holster pushes on the trigger as he bends over.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...t-or-accident/
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Old 4th June 2018, 12:59 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Yes, the gun does recoil when it is fired.

But then again, all guns recoil when they are fired, so I am not sure what your question is.
Not if they are loaded with a blank round for a fake video, which this could have been.

However, to me the gun appears to recoil as it normally would with a live round.
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Old 4th June 2018, 01:59 PM   #62
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I asked about seeing the recoil because I wondered what kind of hold he had when it was picked up and fired. It seems like you could just use a few fingers on the grip to lift it to your holster - you don't need to have any finger even touching the trigger guard. The thing is, if you pick it up lightly from only the grip and it goes off unexpectedly (because your index finger is nowheres near the trigger) then the unexpected recoil might send the gun flying from your hand. Does this guy grab the gun with a "shooting grip"?
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Old 4th June 2018, 02:21 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Question: Why would anyone, and particularly any civilian, feel the need to carry a semi-auto with a round in the chamber? Under what circumstances would it be necessary to open fire before you had time to rack the slide? How often do such circumstances occur?
Presumably it depends on the kind of threat you envision.

- if you are worried about being in the vicinity, but not the immediate target, of a mass terror attack, then the israeli carry method seems optimal (you will have time to rack the slide, and you have an extra safety margin while carrying)

- if you are worried about personal assault/mugging/rape etc where you are the immediate target and the perp gets close to you before you realize what is happening, then you probably don’t have an extra couple of seconds to rack the slide. Which means you have to carry with a round in the chamber.
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Old 4th June 2018, 02:27 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I asked about seeing the recoil because I wondered what kind of hold he had when it was picked up and fired. It seems like you could just use a few fingers on the grip to lift it to your holster - you don't need to have any finger even touching the trigger guard. The thing is, if you pick it up lightly from only the grip and it goes off unexpectedly (because your index finger is nowheres near the trigger) then the unexpected recoil might send the gun flying from your hand. Does this guy grab the gun with a "shooting grip"?
He was shocked that it fell out on the ground and simply failed to follow safe procedures regarding a loaded striker fired pistol without an affirmative safety.

He forgot proper procedures and just quickly grabbed for it and pulled the trigger.

In this video, there's really no chance at all that the gun went off for any other reason, imo.
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Old 4th June 2018, 02:30 PM   #65
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For all we know, he's required to carry the pistol at all times that way.

He's just not supposed to party that hard while carrying.
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Old 4th June 2018, 02:47 PM   #66
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Has this clown been charged by the local LEO's yet? And why not?
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Old 4th June 2018, 03:20 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Has this clown been charged by the local LEO's yet? And why not?
He should be charged with something career ending, but I doubt they will charge an FBI agent with anything over this.

They will call it an accident.

The lawsuits will still be a problem, though.

Especially if it's FBI policy to carry a Glock all the time with a round in the chamber. "You're always on duty."

The guy who picked up a gun and shot and killed killed Kate Steinle was acquitted of all possible charges related to her death by Cali jurors. Her death was just an accident in California.

All this FBI guy did was shoot someone in the leg. Shirley an FBI agent gets the same courtesy as the other guy?

But the FBI guy has deeper pockets for civil lawsuits.
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Old 5th June 2018, 02:58 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
He should be charged with something career ending, but I doubt they will charge an FBI agent with anything over this.

They will call it an accident.

The lawsuits will still be a problem, though.

Especially if it's FBI policy to carry a Glock all the time with a round in the chamber. "You're always on duty."

The guy who picked up a gun and shot and killed killed Kate Steinle was acquitted of all possible charges related to her death by Cali jurors. Her death was just an accident in California.
Though he was charged with second degree murder, manslaughter might well have gotten a conviction. That seems to be a case of prosecutor over reach.
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Old 5th June 2018, 02:48 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Not if they are loaded with a blank round for a fake video, which this could have been.

However, to me the gun appears to recoil as it normally would with a live round.
There was not a blank round involved.

Perhaps you missed the bit in the article which clearly stated that someone was actually shot in the leg and had to go to the hospital as a result. Accordingly, an actual live round was fired.
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Old 5th June 2018, 03:21 PM   #70
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As an update:

The Denver police say they are waiting on toxicology results before deciding whether or not to press charges. It is understandable that the FBI has not named the agent, but I am surprised that the Denver police have not either - this clearly didn't happen in the "line of duty" so to speak, the agent was just another member of the public there.

The victim hopes that the agent does not get fired.

The victim now gets free drinks for life at that bar.

Man shot by dancing off-duty FBI officer is “seriously hurt,” attorney says, but hopes agent doesn’t lose his job
Attorney Frank Azar said the shooting comes during a bad time for the FBI because of President Trump’s attacks on the federal agency


The victim's attorney, Frank Azar, is one of those who advertises on TV and billboards about how he'll get you scads of money from your workplace accident or car crash. They have not explicitly said so, but the involvement of Azar suggests that the agent will be looking at an expensive civil suit, whether or not criminal charges are also filed.
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Old 5th June 2018, 05:45 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The victim's attorney, Frank Azar, is one of those who advertises on TV and billboards about how he'll get you scads of money from your workplace accident or car crash. They have not explicitly said so, but the involvement of Azar suggests that the agent will be looking at an expensive civil suit, whether or not criminal charges are also filed.
The big fish is the FBI, if the attorney can find some way to blame them for this accident. It is a much harder case, but there are deeper pockets.

He will likely settle with the agent for whatever liability insurance he has. Assuming the FBI advises their agents to get umbrella policies.

Question for LEOs on the board: do you have a personal umbrella policy?
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Old 6th June 2018, 02:03 AM   #72
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If one is "always on duty" and therefore required to be armed at all times, is one required then never to drink to excess?
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Old 6th June 2018, 05:37 AM   #73
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Just a few things. When this story first broke, my first thought was “what is an FBI agent doing with a gun that isn’t drop-safe?”
Then, on seeing the video, it’s apparent that the firearm went off when the guy made a panicky grab for it.... Likely embarrassed.

To my knowledge, FBI agents are not required to be armed at all times, but they are required to have their firearm if needed.... So go figure.
This is pretty typical with police agencies these days. It’s understood that there are circumstances where carrying a gun is... Difficult.

Most modern handguns intended for “carry” either have manual safeties or internal safeties, and sometimes both. Most simply will not discharge if dropped.
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Old 6th June 2018, 06:29 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
To my knowledge, FBI agents are not required to be armed at all times, but they are required to have their firearm if needed....
That is exactly what it is. They are not required to carry their gun at all times while off duty. However, if something happens, they are required to have their firearms with them. So what can they do? Take a chance of no incident that would require them to have their weapon? OK, maybe at a kid's birthday party, but at a Denver nightclub? Um, yeah, you are carrying.
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Old 6th June 2018, 07:57 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why incredibly rare? it isn't like guns are covered by consumer safety laws. It is up to the individuals who have negligent discharge to sue the companies themselves and the companies to determine if they are getting too many lawsuits so that a recall is justified.
Assuming it was a Glock I'd bet my bottom dollar that it went off due to pressure on the trigger. The design is such that its pretty much impossible for it to go off by dropping, I won't boor you with details. It doesn't matter how poor US gun manufacturing laws are, Glock is an Austrian company.
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Old 6th June 2018, 08:01 AM   #76
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What would have happened if the gun didn't go off? Would management or patrons have called the police saying that there's a guy here with a gun?
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Old 6th June 2018, 08:04 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
There was not a blank round involved.

Perhaps you missed the bit in the article which clearly stated that someone was actually shot in the leg and had to go to the hospital as a result. Accordingly, an actual live round was fired.
Clearly a crisis actor.
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Old 6th June 2018, 08:07 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The victim's attorney, Frank Azar, is one of those who advertises on TV and billboards about how he'll get you scads of money from your workplace accident or car crash. They have not explicitly said so, but the involvement of Azar suggests that the agent will be looking at an expensive civil suit, whether or not criminal charges are also filed.

Better call Saul!
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Old 6th June 2018, 08:07 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Assuming it was a Glock I'd bet my bottom dollar that it went off due to pressure on the trigger. The design is such that its pretty much impossible for it to go off by dropping, I won't boor you with details. It doesn't matter how poor US gun manufacturing laws are, Glock is an Austrian company.
And volkswagon is a german company, to sell cars they still have to abide by american laws. Same thing here.
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Old 6th June 2018, 08:14 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And volkswagon is a german company, to sell cars they still have to abide by american laws. Same thing here.
Indeed, but they are designed in Austria and also sold in the EU, so the designs must conform to Austrian/EU laws, not just US laws. ETA: and yes I know that didn't prevent VW from cheating. But a Glock has about 1% as many parts as just the engine of a a modern car. And there are no electronics.

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