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Old 6th June 2018, 10:01 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
That is exactly what it is. They are not required to carry their gun at all times while off duty. However, if something happens, they are required to have their firearms with them. So what can they do? Take a chance of no incident that would require them to have their weapon? OK, maybe at a kid's birthday party, but at a Denver nightclub? Um, yeah, you are carrying.

Are they required to have a round in the chamber at all times?
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Old 6th June 2018, 11:39 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Indeed, but they are designed in Austria and also sold in the EU, so the designs must conform to Austrian/EU laws, not just US laws. ETA: and yes I know that didn't prevent VW from cheating. But a Glock has about 1% as many parts as just the engine of a a modern car. And there are no electronics.
So what? How many people in europe carry it as the kind of constant daily concealed carry that it is carried in the US? As a military side arm it might be fine. Hell the french hated the idea of safeties on rifles for the longest time. If you were not shooting at someone you shouldn't have had a round chambered was the idea.
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Old 6th June 2018, 11:40 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Originally, they didn't. Under tremendous public pressure, they finally started making some models with manual safeties. This one, I'm guessing wasn't one such.

As far as the fed is concerned, I sure hope this is investigated as a negligent discharge is a serious issue especially when an actual casualty results. If he had any alcohol in his system (or other drugs) I think he should be fired and consider himself lucky if they don't press formal charges.
All about weapons rights but my opinion can be summed up in a Tony soprano quote. "**** up once lose 2 teeth" metaphorically of course. Any accident that hurts someone or in certain situations could hurt someone should be an automatic pull of a firearms license. If you require one for your job, that sucks find a new one.
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Old 6th June 2018, 05:36 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Are they required to have a round in the chamber at all times?
When I worked for INS when it was part of the DoJ, yes. You loaded the weapon by locking the upper receiver (sometimes called a slide) to the rear, inserting the magazine and letting the slide go forward. Then, you took the magazine out, removed a round from your issued boxes of ammunition and replaced the round that loaded into the chamber. What's in your holster should always be the capacity of the magazine +1.
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Old 6th June 2018, 05:58 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So what? How many people in europe carry it as the kind of constant daily concealed carry that it is carried in the US? As a military side arm it might be fine. Hell the french hated the idea of safeties on rifles for the longest time. If you were not shooting at someone you shouldn't have had a round chambered was the idea.
?? Several European police forces carry it. Are you aware that nearly all cops routinely carry except in the UK and ROI? Having a manual thumb safety doesn't necessarily make it more drop safe.
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Old 6th June 2018, 06:27 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Are they required to have a round in the chamber at all times?
They are only required to respond when needed. I would suggest that not being avle ro fire when needed because there is not a bullet in the chamber would be in violation of that policy.
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Old 6th June 2018, 06:58 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
When I worked for INS when it was part of the DoJ, yes. You loaded the weapon by locking the upper receiver (sometimes called a slide) to the rear, inserting the magazine and letting the slide go forward. Then, you took the magazine out, removed a round from your issued boxes of ammunition and replaced the round that loaded into the chamber. What's in your holster should always be the capacity of the magazine +1.
Do they know that a round can be chambered manually?
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Old 6th June 2018, 10:19 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Do they know that a round can be chambered manually?
You could do it that way too. The key point is that you top off the magazine after you chamber the round.
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Old 7th June 2018, 02:58 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
?? Several European police forces carry it. Are you aware that nearly all cops routinely carry except in the UK and ROI? Having a manual thumb safety doesn't necessarily make it more drop safe.
Except of course in the recovery from being dropped, as seen here.
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Old 7th June 2018, 03:04 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Except of course in the recovery from being dropped, as seen here.
As far as I can make out, the weapon performed impeccably. It was dropped and struck the ground and, despite having a round chambered, did not discharge. Then someone pulled the trigger and the weapon fired. That's all exactly according to design.
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Old 7th June 2018, 03:20 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
As far as I can make out, the weapon performed impeccably. It was dropped and struck the ground and, despite having a round chambered, did not discharge. Then someone pulled the trigger and the weapon fired. That's all exactly according to design.
Yep like how the steering columns and dash boards were very strong and stayed perfectly intact as they speared drivers through the chest and crushed their skulls. Functioning exactly as designed.

Then that crazy guy Nader thinking this was a bad thing. Total nut job, things were functioning perfectly.
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Old 7th June 2018, 03:24 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep like how the steering columns and dash boards were very strong and stayed perfectly intact as they speared drivers through the chest and crushed their skulls. Functioning exactly as designed.
I'm not sure what your point is here. Could you expand?
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Old 7th June 2018, 03:51 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm not sure what your point is here. Could you expand?
That functioning perfectly as designed does not automatically equal adequate safety. The death of Anton Yelchin would be a perfect example of something functioning perfectly and killing someone through bad design.

Safety engineering is very much about overcoming human short comings. So it passes a minimal standard of not going off when dropped something that isn't that minimal, Sig Sauer got it wrong recently and I thought they were fairly well regarded.

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2018/...320-drop-fire/

But that doesn't mean it is a safe design. Good design takes operator error into account and makes it more difficult for such errors to have catastrophic results. So unlike every other industry the firearms industry is not held to that standard. I disagree with that.
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Old 7th June 2018, 04:16 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That functioning perfectly as designed does not automatically equal adequate safety. The death of Anton Yelchin would be a perfect example of something functioning perfectly and killing someone through bad design.

Safety engineering is very much about overcoming human short comings. So it passes a minimal standard of not going off when dropped something that isn't that minimal, Sig Sauer got it wrong recently and I thought they were fairly well regarded.

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2018/...320-drop-fire/

But that doesn't mean it is a safe design. Good design takes operator error into account and makes it more difficult for such errors to have catastrophic results. So unlike every other industry the firearms industry is not held to that standard. I disagree with that.
Here 'gun fires when the trigger is pulled, with no need to operate any other control' is the requirement. It's not designer's choice.
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Old 7th June 2018, 04:29 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That functioning perfectly as designed does not automatically equal adequate safety. The death of Anton Yelchin would be a perfect example of something functioning perfectly and killing someone through bad design.

Safety engineering is very much about overcoming human short comings. So it passes a minimal standard of not going off when dropped something that isn't that minimal, Sig Sauer got it wrong recently and I thought they were fairly well regarded.

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2018/...320-drop-fire/

But that doesn't mean it is a safe design. Good design takes operator error into account and makes it more difficult for such errors to have catastrophic results. So unlike every other industry the firearms industry is not held to that standard. I disagree with that.
I'm not quite sure what more you can ask of designers and manufacturers. I don't think you'd sell many of a gun that didn't go off when the trigger was pulled.
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Old 7th June 2018, 04:45 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Here 'gun fires when the trigger is pulled, with no need to operate any other control' is the requirement. It's not designer's choice.
Show me those specs then. Then of course the ones who specified that are then partially responsible for this also.

People just don't care about this kind of shooting and don't take it like they do any other form of potential hazard.
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Old 7th June 2018, 04:47 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm not quite sure what more you can ask of designers and manufacturers. I don't think you'd sell many of a gun that didn't go off when the trigger was pulled.
Yet most non handguns meet that total deal killer. But really no one wants guns that don't go off at the slightest mistake. That way you can laugh when someone kills themselves by accident.
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Old 7th June 2018, 04:49 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yet most non handguns meet that total deal killer. But really no one wants guns that don't go off at the slightest mistake. That way you can laugh when someone kills themselves by accident.
Most handguns don't go off when someone pulls the trigger?

I'm clearly missing something again.
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Old 7th June 2018, 05:26 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Most handguns don't go off when someone pulls the trigger?

I'm clearly missing something again.
Most rifles don't when they are dropped and someone grabs them and the trigger gets a little unintentional pressure. Apparently the best option for a handgun is for it to go off at any contract with the trigger.
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Old 7th June 2018, 05:30 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Most rifles don't when they are dropped and someone grabs them and the trigger gets a little unintentional pressure. Apparently the best option for a handgun is for it to go off at any contract with the trigger.

How on earth do you know how much pressure his finger applied to the trigger?
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Old 7th June 2018, 05:37 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
How on earth do you know how much pressure his finger applied to the trigger?
That is simply irrelevant, you are clear that any pulling of the trigger should cause it to discharge. Not "more than 15 newtons of force on the trigger" but simply activating it..
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Old 7th June 2018, 05:40 AM   #102
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I don’t want to post a long and detailed description of various handgun designs...
But generally these days you have “single action” automatic pistols, like the M911, which have a manual safety.
You have “double action” weapons which require a relatively long, heavy trigger pull to cycle the hammer back and fire the weapon.
You have “single/double” action weapons in which the first pull of the trigger raises and then drops the hammer, and thereafter the hammer stays back and the trigger pull is both shorter and lighter (like my current duty pistol)
And....You have “safe action” weapons like the Glock design which has an internal striker and no external safety devices other than a little stud on the trigger. The other safeties are internal and the weapon is “drop safe’.
Essentially the only way to fire the weapon is to pull the trigger.

Most Glock pistols have a comparatively heavy trigger pull for this purpose... But there are all manner of aftermarket trigger devices available which make the trigger action both lighter and “crisper”.
There are also target/competition models that have much lighter trigger pulls.

We don’t know what the agent was carrying, so it’s very difficult to make a call on this.
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Old 7th June 2018, 05:49 AM   #103
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And why is drop safety all that important? If you were practicing proper firearms safety procedures you wouldn't drop it. Clearly that would fall into user error and can be ignored as well.
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Old 7th June 2018, 05:52 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That is simply irrelevant, you are clear that any pulling of the trigger should cause it to discharge.

I don't think I said that. I said he pulled the trigger and the weapon discharged, or words to that effect. I made no comment on the pressure because we just don't know.

Quote:
Not "more than 15 newtons of force on the trigger" but simply activating it..
Again, how do you know how much pressure was applied? The answer is that you don't. Using all the information we have, the weapon performed impeccably. If you can somehow demonstrate that the trigger was merely brushed then I'll consider your position. AS it is, you're assuming some sort of guilt on the part of the manufacturer based on your incomplete knowledge.
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Old 7th June 2018, 06:17 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I don't think I said that. I said he pulled the trigger and the weapon discharged, or words to that effect. I made no comment on the pressure because we just don't know.



Again, how do you know how much pressure was applied? The answer is that you don't. Using all the information we have, the weapon performed impeccably. If you can somehow demonstrate that the trigger was merely brushed then I'll consider your position. AS it is, you're assuming some sort of guilt on the part of the manufacturer based on your incomplete knowledge.
If the trigger pull is an important safety function then it should be included.

And I still don't get why drop safety is a big deal, proper handling wouldn't have drops, just like proper handling wouldn't have resulted in a discharge here. Both are clearly operator error and not design issues.
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Old 7th June 2018, 06:58 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
If the trigger pull is an important safety function then it should be included.

And I still don't get why drop safety is a big deal, proper handling wouldn't have drops, just like proper handling wouldn't have resulted in a discharge here. Both are clearly operator error and not design issues.
Yes. But you can protect gun from firing when dropped. You can't protect gun from firing, when the trigger is pulled.
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Old 7th June 2018, 08:04 AM   #107
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There is something wrong with this kitchen knife. When I moved the edge of the blade across my finger, it produced a painful wound.
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Old 7th June 2018, 08:14 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Yes. But you can protect gun from firing when dropped. You can't protect gun from firing, when the trigger is pulled.
Except for using all the various forms of safeties that do exactly that. But that is crazy talk.
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Old 7th June 2018, 08:15 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
There is something wrong with this kitchen knife. When I moved the edge of the blade across my finger, it produced a painful wound.
There is nothing wrong with this mandolin, only a fool needs a handguard for one.
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Old 7th June 2018, 08:17 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Except for using all the various forms of safeties that do exactly that. But that is crazy talk.
Safety Engaged: Trigger won't pull.
Safety Non Engaged: Trigger pulls.

Madness apparently, at least to many people.
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Old 7th June 2018, 08:29 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Safety Engaged: Trigger won't pull.
Safety Non Engaged: Trigger pulls.

Madness apparently, at least to many people.
Depends entirely on the type of safety, plenty do let you pull the trigger and instead prevent the striker/hammer from falling. Or puts a block in between the striker/hammer and firing pin.

But we just have to accept that these kinds of accidental shootings are the price for the 1/10 of a second when it most likely won't matter. And we will gladly pay it.
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Old 7th June 2018, 08:35 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
I don’t want to post a long and detailed description of various handgun designs...
But generally these days you have “single action” automatic pistols, like the M911, which have a manual safety.
You have “double action” weapons which require a relatively long, heavy trigger pull to cycle the hammer back and fire the weapon.
You have “single/double” action weapons in which the first pull of the trigger raises and then drops the hammer, and thereafter the hammer stays back and the trigger pull is both shorter and lighter (like my current duty pistol)
And....You have “safe action” weapons like the Glock design which has an internal striker and no external safety devices other than a little stud on the trigger. The other safeties are internal and the weapon is “drop safe’.
Essentially the only way to fire the weapon is to pull the trigger.

Most Glock pistols have a comparatively heavy trigger pull for this purpose... But there are all manner of aftermarket trigger devices available which make the trigger action both lighter and “crisper”.
There are also target/competition models that have much lighter trigger pulls.

We don’t know what the agent was carrying, so it’s very difficult to make a call on this.
Good summary.

Having done IPSC/IDPA shooting in my younger years, I would never ever feel safe carrying a cocked and locked 1911. Hell having it on my hip for a minute or two before a stage made me sweat a bit. Of course that gun had about a 1 pound trigger on it, which is less than factory. I'd much prefer to carry a Glock if I did routinely carry, rather than a cocked and locked 1911. If you accidentally take the thumb safety down it takes very little for it to fire.
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Old 7th June 2018, 08:37 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And why is drop safety all that important? If you were practicing proper firearms safety procedures you wouldn't drop it. Clearly that would fall into user error and can be ignored as well.
Because things happen in RL? I wouldn't even want a non drop-safe gun in my general vicinity. ETA: and practicing proper safety procedures would've prevented this incident regardless if the gun had a manual safety or not. Keeping ones finger off the trigger except when ready to fire is IMO an easier feat to accomplish than never ever dropping a pistol.

Last edited by lobosrul5; 7th June 2018 at 08:41 AM.
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Old 7th June 2018, 08:41 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Because things happen in RL? I wouldn't even want a non drop-safe gun in my general vicinity.
And you would with someone carrying a gun with only a trigger safety? You seem uncomfortable with guns with many more safeties on them being carried in that fashion so why is the trigger safety so perfect?

If stuff happens why does it only apply to things like dropping the gun and not grabbing the gun quickly after it is dropped and goes off? The dropping seems like a bigger handling error than rapidly recovering the weapon. But that is the part that needs to be safe while the recovery seems to be totally on him.
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Old 7th June 2018, 08:44 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And you would with someone carrying a gun with only a trigger safety? You seem uncomfortable with guns with many more safeties on them being carried in that fashion so why is the trigger safety so perfect?

If stuff happens why does it only apply to things like dropping the gun and not grabbing the gun quickly after it is dropped and goes off? The dropping seems like a bigger handling error than rapidly recovering the weapon. But that is the part that needs to be safe while the recovery seems to be totally on him.
Lack of safety is design requirement, not design choice. Some people like their guns like that. They may end up shooting someone by mistake. They typically prefer that to gun not going off when they want. I think I would prefer no safety and empty chamber, but that's not the issue here. Issue here is you claim it's unsafe design. It's not. It's unsafe mode of carrying a gun.
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Old 7th June 2018, 08:45 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And you would with someone carrying a gun with only a trigger safety? You seem uncomfortable with guns with many more safeties on them being carried in that fashion so why is the trigger safety so perfect?

If stuff happens why does it only apply to things like dropping the gun and not grabbing the gun quickly after it is dropped and goes off? The dropping seems like a bigger handling error than rapidly recovering the weapon. But that is the part that needs to be safe while the recovery seems to be totally on him.
See my ETA. No, IMO keeping your finger off the trigger is easier to accomplish than never ever dropping a pistol. Being drop safe is more important than a manual safety, which btw can be accidentally disengaged, or forgotten to be engaged in the first place. From what I've seen of police incident video's, honestly having a heavier trigger pull makes me feel just a tiny bit safer than a light SA trigger pull with a manual safety. If they decide you are a threat, that safety is coming off, so all that stopping an unintentional shooting is the trigger pull. But, after seeing all the recent bodycam video etc, really we have to be worried about them wrongly intentionally shooting you. ETA: and really my main point before was, this isn't an American thing. Several police forces in Europe carry Glocks, along with Australian and Canadian police.

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Old 7th June 2018, 08:45 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Lack of safety is design requirement, not design choice. Some people like their guns like that. They may end up shooting someone by mistake. They typically prefer that to gun not going off when they want. I think I would prefer no safety and empty chamber, but that's not the issue here. Issue here is you claim it's unsafe design. It's not. It's unsafe mode of carrying a gun.
Fine whatever gun safety is totally different and special that is why need exemptions from normal safety laws.
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Old 7th June 2018, 09:14 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
If stuff happens why does it only apply to things like dropping the gun and not grabbing the gun quickly after it is dropped and goes off?
Because you want the gun to go off when the trigger is pulled.

I really don't understand your angle here. Dunk man dropped firearm. Drunk man pulled trigger while picking firearm up (I suspect at this point he's broken at least one vital rule of firearm safety) firearm discharged.

Sure, it'd be safer if it didn't discharge when you pull the trigger, but then all you have is a really expensive cosh.
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Old 7th June 2018, 09:31 AM   #119
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My knowledge of handguns is limited and I somehow suspect that there are very few instances where a slight delay would be critical except, perhaps, in preventing accidental and over-hasty shootings. But anyway, I do have a rifle with a safety, and that safety is a simple little sideways button in the trigger guard. If you pick up the gun to shoot it you can disengage the safety nearly instantly with your thumb. It locks the trigger itself. It does require that you actually intend to disengage it, and if you forget it takes very little time to disengage it even after a failure to fire. If it were on a pistol, I think it almost certain that it could be disengaged easily in the time it takes to draw the gun and aim it. It seems like a very simple device that could be operated very quickly with very little training and habit formation.

Although I'm loath to see guns toted and hastily fired in general, I can see the reasoning behind a Law enforcement officer not wanting an empty chamber. In some guns at least, that would require a fairly distinct cocking operation which is not compatible with drawing the gun and firing it in a smooth motion. But I think a well placed safety would be.
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Old 7th June 2018, 09:36 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
There is nothing wrong with this mandolin, only a fool needs a handguard for one.
If your whole point is that every firearm should have a manual safety, then I agree entirely.

If that is not your point, then could you please spell it out?
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