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Tags Germany history , Russia history

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Old 5th June 2018, 02:54 PM   #41
Vixen
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
We have the legislation from Estonia and Latvia dating from the 1920s expropriating the estates and we have the date that the USSR reabsorbed those same nations (1940).

What are you basing your doubt on?
It was only some of it. Stalin expropriated the remainder.

It is quite wrong to say the Baltic Germans had no land, buildings or privileges as of the time Stalin came along.

ETA:

Quote:
At the same time, [post 1917] the German minourities realised that Baltic independence would strip the wealthy Baltic German upper class of their power. After Germany quit World War I, the Baltic Germans therefore lost their protection from both the Russians and from Estonian, Latvian, and Lithuanian nationalists. Now liberated from foreign occupation, the Baltic nations fully declared independence. In response, many among the Baltic German elite declared that the United Baltic Duchy and the Duchy of Kurland and Semigallia had full sovereignty over all 3 Baltic republics. The secessionist governments set up paramilitary militias (the baltische Landswehr) with support from former German soldiers (Freikorps) who now had no war to fight. Neither of these would-be nations called for official discrimination and welcomed Baltic peoples as citizens. The government's council included Latvians, Estonians, and Baltic Germans.
<snip>

Quote:
In the regions of the Baltic states that were briefly occupied by Soviet troops during the Baltic Wars of Independence after 1918, the Bolshevik governments particularly targeted the Baltic German minourities because of their historic role as the economic elite and "bourgeoisie." Using emergency decrees, the brief socialist regimes targeting most Baltic Germans for arrest, executions (although rare), or deportation to the Soviet frontier in Central Asia in cooperation with the emerging Soviet Union. All wealthy families were subject to arrest without trial (Eestiajalugu). Tthese ephemeral socialist regimes collapsed along with the eventual Soviet defeat.
http://expelledgermans.org/balticgermans.htm

So, under the protection of the Peter the Great - from 1721- who admired the nobility system based on the Swedish charter and integrated it into the Russian Imperialist system, which was based more on set ranks. Thus, the Baltic Germans continued to enjoy their privileges until circa 1836 when the then Czar (Nicholas_?) began to 'russify things'. The tensions caused led to a lot of unrest, especially in Finland, which was a Grand Duchy of Russia from 1809 - 1917. Things came to a head during 1905-1917 culiminating in WWI and the Bolshevik uprising.

Ahead of Operation Barbarossa, 1941, Hitler made plans to move the Baltic Germans out of the Baltic area and as per the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, gave up their rights to the land.

In the Soviet counter occupation the remaining Baltic Germans were attacked as the enemy bourgeoisie and these received zero compensation, together with being deported to Siberia or being summarily executed. Under the communist regime, all private land was compulsorily handed over to the Soviets.

The Baltic Germans were not responsible for their fate, nor for the fact of dispossessing Poles. You could say they were betrayed by Hitler and Stalin.
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Last edited by Vixen; 5th June 2018 at 04:03 PM.
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Old 5th June 2018, 03:17 PM   #42
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Tons of Junkers lost their holdings when Bismarck united Germany. No recompense. Been only a couple score years longer.

Plenty of Junkers tried to get their East German land back after reunification. German courts said nope.
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Old 5th June 2018, 03:59 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Tons of Junkers lost their holdings when Bismarck united Germany. No recompense. Been only a couple score years longer.

Plenty of Junkers tried to get their East German land back after reunification. German courts said nope.
The Junkers were German nationals. The Baltic Germans are not. In effect, they are being punished along with the Third Reich German nationals.

But why? At least Germany has retained its land and its culture, even if things were tough for a while.
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Old 5th June 2018, 04:34 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Not really a claim for ethnic cleansing, more like bourgeois cleansing.

It was the Baltic Germans' land and culture for nigh on 800 years, they have a claim to it. You could call it their 'Isreal'.
That is a comparison that I don't think Zionists would approve, and they would be right. The Baltic barons established themselves as a feudal ruling class, while the Zionists' evident intent is to replace all non Jews by Jews in this "homeland", in all social classes, as has been done in the Golan,

Nor do I think the Zionists, as Jews, will appreciate being compared with an order of crusading knights, who committed genocide against the Old Prussian indigenes because they were not Christian.

The legitimate claim that the Baltic Germans might promote in former East Prussia is to live there on the same footing as other residents, not to be feudal rulers. That is the most that any ethnic group may rightly claim in a region of such diversity.

Last edited by Craig B; 5th June 2018 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 5th June 2018, 04:59 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That is a comparison that I don't think Zionists would approve, and they would be right. The Baltic barons established themselves as a feudal ruling class, while the Zionists' evident intent is to replace all non Jews by Jews in this "homeland", in all social classes, as has been done in the Golan,

Nor do I think the Zionists, as Jews, will appreciate being compared with an order of crusading knights, who committed genocide against the Old Prussian indigenes because they were not Christian.

The legitimate claim that the Baltic Germans might promote in former East Prussia is to live there on the same footing as other residents, not to be feudal rulers. That is the most that any ethnic group may rightly claim in a region of such diversity.

You do use emotive language. Firstly AIUI the Teutonic Order came to a demise with the onset of Lutheranism (protestant reform). This was a religious upheaval throughout Europe and cannot be blamed on the Baltic Germans.

Yes, feudalism is archaic, obsolete and wrong, so nobody is asking to bring that back.

Just give them back the land and the estates taken away from them.
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Old 5th June 2018, 05:18 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It was only some of it. Stalin expropriated the remainder.
You can keep yelling "it was only some of it", but that's an outright lie. From that wiki page you cited yourself:
Quote:
On October 10, 1919 Estonian parliament expropriated 1,065 estates (96.6% of all estates). March 1, 1926 law set the compensation to the former owners of arable land at about 3% of its market value and no compensation at all for the forests. This almost instantly bankrupted German noble class, even if they were allowed to keep some 50 ha of their lands.[17]
96.6% is not "some", that is "nearly all". For Latvia we have to do a small calculation, which you, as an accountant, apparently are unable to do:
Quote:
At the start of independence Baltic Germans owned 58% of land in Estonia and 48% in Latvia. [...]
On September 16, 1920 Constitutional Assembly of Latvia nationalized 1,300 estates with 3.7 million hectares of land. Former German owners were allowed to keep 50 ha of land and farm equipment. In 1924, Saeima decided that no compensation will be paid to former owners. In 1929, Saeima voted that veterans of the Baltische Landeswehr cannot receive any land.[18]
The area of Latvia is 64,598 sqkm, that is, 6,459,800 ha. The nationalized area of land thus constituted 57% of the land in Latvia. That's actually more than all the German-held land.
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Old 5th June 2018, 05:22 PM   #47
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The thing about nobility:

You get a lot of power compared to the average citizen. You get more money, you get land, you get all sorts of benefits.

The drawback? It can be taken away from you at any point, for almost any reason.

Monarch thinks you looked at him funny? Estates stripped, titles removed.

Mismanage your estate? Your land is almost worthless and your descendants will be dirt farmers like the nearby serfs.

Resisting the will of other nobles? Pack your bags and catch the next ship to America buddy.

Political revolution that your antics helped forment? Be glad if losing all your land is all that happens.

Can’t see why I should be sympathetic. With the title comes the risk. CEOs give that excuse all the time when justifying their immense salaries. Why should I be concerned that it actually applies once in a while?
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Old 5th June 2018, 05:24 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Junkers were German nationals. The Baltic Germans are not. In effect, they are being punished along with the Third Reich German nationals.
No, they're not. They were punished for being an upper class that kept a feudal system going and exploited the native population.

Oh, and yes they were German nationals in the sense that they were entitled to German citizenship. That was also were their allegiance lay: in 1918, they tried to seize power in the Baltics with the ultimate aim that the Baltics became part of Germany.

And in that perspective, I don't see why that Latvians and Estonians, and for that matter anyone else, should feel sorry for their plight.
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Old 5th June 2018, 05:25 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
You can keep yelling "it was only some of it", but that's an outright lie. From that wiki page you cited yourself:

96.6% is not "some", that is "nearly all". For Latvia we have to do a small calculation, which you, as an accountant, apparently are unable to do:

The area of Latvia is 64,598 sqkm, that is, 6,459,800 ha. The nationalized area of land thus constituted 57% of the land in Latvia. That's actually more than all the German-held land.
Do you know how large 50 ha is? It's 124 acres (or, 62 football pitches). Each.
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Old 5th June 2018, 05:28 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
The thing about nobility:

You get a lot of power compared to the average citizen. You get more money, you get land, you get all sorts of benefits.

The drawback? It can be taken away from you at any point, for almost any reason.

Monarch thinks you looked at him funny? Estates stripped, titles removed.

Mismanage your estate? Your land is almost worthless and your descendants will be dirt farmers like the nearby serfs.

Resisting the will of other nobles? Pack your bags and catch the next ship to America buddy.

Political revolution that your antics helped forment? Be glad if losing all your land is all that happens.

Canít see why I should be sympathetic. With the title comes the risk. CEOs give that excuse all the time when justifying their immense salaries. Why should I be concerned that it actually applies once in a while?
This is land awarded for military honours, or through inheritance.

Would you be happy to have your inheritance taken away?

These were brave soldiers who fought for their country. In the medieval ages, a battle could go either way.
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Old 5th June 2018, 05:31 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
No, they're not. They were punished for being an upper class that kept a feudal system going and exploited the native population.

Oh, and yes they were German nationals in the sense that they were entitled to German citizenship. That was also were their allegiance lay: in 1918, they tried to seize power in the Baltics with the ultimate aim that the Baltics became part of Germany.

And in that perspective, I don't see why that Latvians and Estonians, and for that matter anyone else, should feel sorry for their plight.
Feudalism is an economic anachronism and has died a natural death, like slavery.

So you believe in the seizure of property to 'distribute to the poor'?

So people who bring high civilisation to a country should pretend to be semi-literate country bumpkins...?
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Old 5th June 2018, 05:50 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This is land awarded for military honours, or through inheritance.

Would you be happy to have your inheritance taken away?

These were brave soldiers who fought for their country. In the medieval ages, a battle could go either way.
My inheritance was not developed by 30-times-great grandparent glory hounds seeking battle against barely armed peasants, and enslaving them for generations.

Plenty of nobles throughout history have lost their titles for a multitude of reasons. Most of those reasons probably seemed unfair. Too bad. With the title comes the risk.

They took it by the sword, can't say I'm surprised they lost it by the sword...albeit a much less deadly sword.

Again, no sympathy.
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Old 5th June 2018, 11:55 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Do you know how large 50 ha is? It's 124 acres (or, 62 football pitches). Each.
The same paras in that wiki article say that in Estonia 1,065 estates were expropriated and in Latvia 1,300 estates. Now with the figures there, calculate how much those 50 ha per estate is as percentage of the total land that was owned by the German nobility. Show us for once that you can do highschool math.

Oh, and I'm from the continent, it's quite silly for you to convert hectares to acres.
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Old 5th June 2018, 11:59 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Feudalism is an economic anachronism and has died a natural death, like slavery.

So you believe in the seizure of property to 'distribute to the poor'?

So people who bring high civilisation to a country should pretend to be semi-literate country bumpkins...?
Your racism is shining through.

And yes, a century ago land reform and land redistribution was very much a way to address excessive wealth inequities.
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Old 6th June 2018, 02:00 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes, feudalism is archaic, obsolete and wrong, so nobody is asking to bring that back.

Just give them back the land and the estates taken away from them.
Eh, um, well. If feudalism is wrong, then taking feudal estates away is right, isn't it. You're saying the equivalent of "slavery is wrong; all that the plantation owners want from the federal government is to get their labourers back, who were taken away in 1863."

But of course your post is obviously jocular, and I'm doing your sense of humour an injustice by taking it seriously.
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Old 6th June 2018, 08:50 AM   #56
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Wo auch immer wir stehen, ist Deutschland!

Und Gott mit uns! Oder mit Vixen!
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Old 6th June 2018, 09:50 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
But of course your post is obviously jocular, and I'm doing your sense of humour an injustice by taking it seriously.
A couple of days ago I read that Canadian white supremacist Lauren Southern had taken up the mantle of the white South-African farmers. I thought that there was nothing more stupid in today's world than hitch your wagon to the cause of the guys who invented Apartheid. But Vixen has topped it with this inane cause.

I don't think she's jocular in this thread. She just has a hard-on for piling all "evil" in the world on Stalin.

Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I say yes, but let them then compensate in return the ethnic Poles and Jews that they replaced when they moved to Poland.
Vixen denies that the Nazis ever murdered ethnic Poles. Because, you know, Stalin must have murdered more people than Hitler so it's most convenient to deny roughly half of the civilian murders by the Nazi regime.
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Old 6th June 2018, 10:16 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It was only some of it. Stalin expropriated the remainder.

It is quite wrong to say the Baltic Germans had no land, buildings or privileges as of the time Stalin came along.

No what is wrong is you continuing to repeat the same false claim. The Baltic Germans privileges had been removed, and all but a tiny fraction of their land had been seized, by the independent Baltic nations decades before the USSR invaded and BTW current day Russia is not the USSR.
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Old 6th June 2018, 10:32 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
A couple of days ago I read that Canadian white supremacist Lauren Southern had taken up the mantle of the white South-African farmers. I thought that there was nothing more stupid in today's world than hitch your wagon to the cause of the guys who invented Apartheid. But Vixen has topped it with this inane cause.

I don't think she's jocular in this thread. She just has a hard-on for piling all "evil" in the world on Stalin.


Vixen denies that the Nazis ever murdered ethnic Poles. Because, you know, Stalin must have murdered more people than Hitler so it's most convenient to deny roughly half of the civilian murders by the Nazi regime.
SO Vixen never heard of what Henirich Himmler and his "General Plan East"?
Nice.
Poland probably suffered more then any other country in World War 2. It was raped and brutalized by both Hitler and Stalin. Hitler killed a lot more Poles, but Stalin got his share also.
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Old 6th June 2018, 10:38 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Your racism is shining through.

And yes, a century ago land reform and land redistribution was very much a way to address excessive wealth inequities.
A century ago? If only ... but in Scotland we were somewhat belated in taking action against feudalism.
The Act [Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc. (Scotland) Act 2000] officially brought to an end annual feu duties, a vestige of feudal land tenure, on 28 November 2004 ... After that date, the former vassal of an estate was the sole owner of the land, and the former superior's rights were extinguished. For a further two years, the superior had the option of claiming compensation; this was fixed at a single payment of a size that, when invested at an annual rate of 2.5%, it would yield interest equal to the former feu duty. Because inflation had eroded the value of duties, which had been fixed many years before, this payment was in most cases extremely small compared with the current value of the land.
Yes, you read it correctly: 2004.
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Old 6th June 2018, 03:20 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
The same paras in that wiki article say that in Estonia 1,065 estates were expropriated and in Latvia 1,300 estates. Now with the figures there, calculate how much those 50 ha per estate is as percentage of the total land that was owned by the German nobility. Show us for once that you can do highschool math.

Oh, and I'm from the continent, it's quite silly for you to convert hectares to acres.
There was more to it than land. There were voting privileges and the right to be a member of the Landrat.
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Old 6th June 2018, 03:22 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Your racism is shining through.

And yes, a century ago land reform and land redistribution was very much a way to address excessive wealth inequities.
Don't be silly. You always have to go to hysterical extremes.
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Old 6th June 2018, 03:42 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Eh, um, well. If feudalism is wrong, then taking feudal estates away is right, isn't it. You're saying the equivalent of "slavery is wrong; all that the plantation owners want from the federal government is to get their labourers back, who were taken away in 1863."

But of course your post is obviously jocular, and I'm doing your sense of humour an injustice by taking it seriously.
The British plantation owners were given plenty of compensation after the 1824 Manumission Act. It was a very handsome sum of money.

The Baltic Germans have been given nothing, after having lived in the region for almost 800 years. They were blameless for having been caught between the Swedish empire on the one hand and against Russia on the other; Peter the Great's Russia allied with Augustus II 's Saxony - Poland-Lithuania and Frederik's Denmark-Norway seizing control away in the Great Northern War 1700- 1721.

Up until then Sweden had ruled over the Baltics countries, which included Estonia, Livonia, Ingria and Karelia from 1560 and 1658, gaining addition tracts in Germany from the Duchy of Bremen, Wismar, Verden and Western Pomerania from the Thirty Years War.

The Swedish empire never once in its history had feudalism. Neither Sweden or Finland ever had peasants or serfs. Their people were always free men.

It was the Russians who kept up feudalism, and even they abandoned it in 1836. Anyone who claims the Baltic Germans were using ordinary people as serfs are lying to you. The non-landowners paid tithes to them. However, that is hardly different from tenant farmers paying rent and a commission on the yield from farming. Even the Church was taking tithes from local peasants in England, sparking off the Peasants Revolt in C14.

Times have moved on. The displaced Baltic Germans should be compensated for the value of the land stolen from them by the communist, or at least be given the opportunity to move back, once again into their ancient home land.

It was the Baltic Germans who built the fine harbour at Riga, and made it into the town that it is.
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Old 6th June 2018, 03:44 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Wo auch immer wir stehen, ist Deutschland!

Und Gott mit uns! Oder mit Vixen!
Please take your Roman salute elsewhere.
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Old 6th June 2018, 03:46 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
A couple of days ago I read that Canadian white supremacist Lauren Southern had taken up the mantle of the white South-African farmers. I thought that there was nothing more stupid in today's world than hitch your wagon to the cause of the guys who invented Apartheid. But Vixen has topped it with this inane cause.

I don't think she's jocular in this thread. She just has a hard-on for piling all "evil" in the world on Stalin.


Vixen denies that the Nazis ever murdered ethnic Poles. Because, you know, Stalin must have murdered more people than Hitler so it's most convenient to deny roughly half of the civilian murders by the Nazi regime.
I have never denied it.

Stalin is responsible for at least an equal amount of atrocities outside of the Holocaust abomination.
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Old 6th June 2018, 03:47 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
No what is wrong is you continuing to repeat the same false claim. The Baltic Germans privileges had been removed, and all but a tiny fraction of their land had been seized, by the independent Baltic nations decades before the USSR invaded and BTW current day Russia is not the USSR.
The Russians have always seen themselves as Russian.
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Old 6th June 2018, 03:49 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
SO Vixen never heard of what Henirich Himmler and his "General Plan East"?
Nice.
Poland probably suffered more then any other country in World War 2. It was raped and brutalized by both Hitler and Stalin. Hitler killed a lot more Poles, but Stalin got his share also.
You acknowledge that the Poles were raped and brutalised by both Hitler and Stalin, but you can't bring yourself to admit the Baltic Germans were, too?
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Old 6th June 2018, 03:51 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
A century ago? If only ... but in Scotland we were somewhat belated in taking action against feudalism.
The Act [Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc. (Scotland) Act 2000] officially brought to an end annual feu duties, a vestige of feudal land tenure, on 28 November 2004 ... After that date, the former vassal of an estate was the sole owner of the land, and the former superior's rights were extinguished. For a further two years, the superior had the option of claiming compensation; this was fixed at a single payment of a size that, when invested at an annual rate of 2.5%, it would yield interest equal to the former feu duty. Because inflation had eroded the value of duties, which had been fixed many years before, this payment was in most cases extremely small compared with the current value of the land.
Yes, you read it correctly: 2004.
It was shocking the way the Scottish lairds forced the crofters off the land.
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Old 6th June 2018, 09:41 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It was shocking the way the Scottish lairds forced the crofters off the land.
Who then should be compensated? The feudal landowners or the working cultivators of the land? Landowners expelled by reason of ethnicity should be readmitted on the same footing as other residents.

And if you are shocked by the treatment of crofters in the nineteenth century, what of the Old Prussians whose language, culture and most of the population was driven to complete extinction in a crusade?

This Teutonic Knights' activity was the introduction of "High Culture" you tell us? It was religiously motivated imperialist genocide.

The Scottish aristocrats believed they were introducing "high culture" to the ignorant Gaelic speaking natives. The Irish landowners thought they were introducing high culture to the ignorant Catholic Gaelic speaking natives. Their way of doing it, as with the Teutonic Knights, was by expelling the population, obliterating their language and culture, and confiscating their plots of land. For this the aristocrats' descendants merit neither restitution nor compensation.

That the governments of the Baltic Republics should admit the descendants of German speaking Balts, on the same basis as other applicants for citizenship of their Republics, is a reasonable proposal, as long as the idea of cultural dominion, feudal supremacy and possession of large estates is definitively abandoned. That history deserves no admiration, far less restitution.
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Old 7th June 2018, 02:21 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
... Things came to a head during 1905-1917 culiminating in WWI and the Bolshevik uprising.

Ahead of Operation Barbarossa, 1941, Hitler made plans to move the Baltic Germans out of the Baltic area and as per the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, gave up their rights to the land.
Why do you persist in skipping the intervening 20 years?
You know, the 20 years in which the Baltic German landed classes lost their lands almost entirely and also lost their control of the reigns of power in those states?
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Old 7th June 2018, 02:45 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There was more to it than land. There were voting privileges and the right to be a member of the Landrat.
You say that as if it's a bad thing they lost political privileges. What kind of anti-democrat are you?
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Old 7th June 2018, 03:25 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I have never denied it.

Stalin is responsible for at least an equal amount of atrocities outside of the Holocaust abomination.
You've stubbornly refused to admit that the Nazi regime murdered millions of Polish, Belarus, Ukrainian and Russian citizens when repeatedly pressed on the issue by Craig B, TubbaBubba, me, and some other posters in the 100 years Finland thread. That is tantamount to deny it. And in this post in that thread, I collected some quotes of you from an earlier thread where you argued that the Shoah was all hunkydory legal and that all those 6 million Jews were German citizens anyway.

We've also gone repeatedly over the numbers of victims of the Hitler and Stalin regimes, and no, it's a plain lie of yours that Stalin is responsible for more victims than Hitler.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You acknowledge that the Poles were raped and brutalised by both Hitler and Stalin, but you can't bring yourself to admit the Baltic Germans were, too?
Why should he? The plain facts are that the Baltic Germans were not raped and brutalized by Stalin. First of all, their possessions were expropriated and their political privileges abolished by the nationalist governments of independent Latvia and Estonia in 1918-1920. Those governments had nothing to do with the bolsheviks; on the contrary, they had fought against the bolsheviks in their independence wars (and in the Latvian case, they had also fought against the German army and the Baltische Landwehr who wanted to establish a Latvian state where the German upper class still had their political control, or wanted to attach Latvia to Germany).

Second, the "resettlement" of the Baltic Germans didn't occur on the eve of Barbarossa, as you claim in your OP, in direct contradiction of the wiki article you cited, but directly after the invasion and occupation of Poland, on the initiative of Hitler, not of Stalin, and while Latvia and Estonia were still independent republics. "Heim ins Reich" was a Nazi idea, not an idea of Stalin. And the majority of those Baltic Germans were "resettled" in the Warthegau, a region of occupied Poland that the Nazis annexed and was their first target for Germanization. Around 630,000 ethnic Poles and Polish Jews were deported from the region, and Baltic and other Germans were to repopulate it.
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Old 7th June 2018, 03:26 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Please take your Roman salute elsewhere.
Maybe you shouldn't continually engage in denial of Nazi crimes or apologetics for Nazi crimes if you don't want that kind of reactions.
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Old 7th June 2018, 03:31 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
The same paras in that wiki article say that in Estonia 1,065 estates were expropriated and in Latvia 1,300 estates. Now with the figures there, calculate how much those 50 ha per estate is as percentage of the total land that was owned by the German nobility. Show us for once that you can do highschool math.
Bump.

Show us your math. You are an accountant, right? Show us for once that you can do a simple calculation.
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Old 7th June 2018, 04:24 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Times have moved on. The displaced Baltic Germans should be compensated for the value of the land stolen from them by the communist, or at least be given the opportunity to move back, once again into their ancient home land.
You realize that the Estonian and Latvian Republics that confiscated the estates weren't communist right? And why should the great-great grandchildren of the affected persons receive anything? Articulate an actual argument based on current conditions that would justify compensation:

a. Have they been an oppressed minority in either Estonia or Latvia;
b. Other than losing former privileges and estates, did the former Baltic Germans lose civil rights (such as being barred from office or being able to vote);
c. Has this oppression carried on; and
d. Are they disadvantaged in their current states due to continuing efforts by Latvian or Estonian efforts to hamper trade, etc.?

What prevents any descendants of the Baltic Germans from immigrating to either Latvia or Estonia?

Quote:
It was the Baltic Germans who built the fine harbour at Riga, and made it into the town that it is.
So? What have they done lately? Resting on the deeds of an ancestor and expecting to continue to receive privileges for it is antithetical to any merit based society.
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Old 7th June 2018, 07:03 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Please take your Roman salute elsewhere.
Anteeksi, en puhu suomea.
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Old 7th June 2018, 09:29 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Anteeksi, en puhu suomea.
Be careful what you say, you might end up in a Finnish concentration camp.

(and for clarity: these camps were in Eastern Karelia, a region that never was Finnish but that Finland conquered during WW2, something that Vixen also has been denying).
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Old 7th June 2018, 10:28 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Russians have always seen themselves as Russian.
That's nice, doesn't change the fact the USSR was not Russia, oh and of course neither was Stalin Russian. Are you ever going to deal with hard facts or just keep blundering on repeating your false claims?
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Old 7th June 2018, 10:43 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Russians have always seen themselves as Russian.
By "Russian," do you mean russkiy, or do you mean rossiskiy, and do you know the difference without googling?
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Old 8th June 2018, 12:03 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
By "Russian," do you mean russkiy, or do you mean rossiskiy, and do you know the difference without googling?
Since she says "always", she must clearly mean Руси, being that the Rurikid "Velikyi Knyaz Vseya Rus", and later "Tsar Vseya Rus" predates the Romanov use of "Rossiskaya". (I am not sure when "Rus" got turned into Russkiy - are you? My feeling is that it is a 19th century attempt at creating a distinct Russian - not Great Russian - national identity, but I'm not certain.)

Anyway, I think we can all conclude that the Viking Age Swedes are to blame, as always, and Roslagen should be ceded to the Baltic states as reparations.
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