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Tags Germany history , Russia history

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Old 8th June 2018, 02:11 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Anyway, I think we can all conclude that the Viking Age Swedes are to blame, as always, and Roslagen should be ceded to the Baltic states as reparations.
You totally misunderstand the thrust of the OP. The Varangians came to educate and build the strong state of the Kievan Rus' for the poor, illiterate, uncultured hicks of East Slavs that lived there. Because of that, Sweden is entitled to regain overlordship over Belarus, Ukraine and Russia and to rule over the local peasants. The name "slavs" really already says what their intended station in life is, isn't it?
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Old 8th June 2018, 08:06 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Since she says "always", she must clearly mean Руси, being that the Rurikid "Velikyi Knyaz Vseya Rus", and later "Tsar Vseya Rus" predates the Romanov use of "Rossiskaya". (I am not sure when "Rus" got turned into Russkiy - are you? My feeling is that it is a 19th century attempt at creating a distinct Russian - not Great Russian - national identity, but I'm not certain.)

Anyway, I think we can all conclude that the Viking Age Swedes are to blame, as always, and Roslagen should be ceded to the Baltic states as reparations.
My impression is that it was a gradual process that culminated during the reign of Pyotr.
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Old 8th June 2018, 08:48 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
My impression is that it was a gradual process that culminated during the reign of Pyotr.
My impression from reading this wiki page is that the forms Русь (Rus') as demonym and русский (russkiy) as adjective have always existed next to each other, like in English "Swede" is the demonym and "Swedish" the adjective. As to the alternative form российский (rossiyskiy), that seems to have come up in the 15th Century - as a backformation from the Greek Ρωσσια which has an "o" in it? This paragraph from that wiki page is interesting:

Quote:
Different from other Slavic languages, in the specific case of the Russian language, russkij (русский) refers to both the Rus' people and modern day Russians, rossijskij (российский), with no distinction (deliberately implying[original research?] both to be the same people with the same language — see Russification). In modern Polish the words being ruski (adj. of Rus', Ruthenian, the East Slavs from the historic Kievan Rus') which may equally refer to modern Belarusians, Ukrainians or both, or in a historical context to the people of Kievan Rus'; contrasted to rosyjski (Russian, native to what became of the Grand Duchy of Moscow, developed after the disintegration of the Kievan Rus'). Similarly in other Slavic languages, including modern Ukrainian: rus’kyj (руський) refers to Rus’ (Ruthenian), whereas rosijs’kyj (російський) refers to Russia.
So, depending on whom you ask, the word ruskiy may mean:
1) for an Ukrainian, it means "ruthenian", i.e., it refers nowadays Ukrainians or Belarusian or their ancestors;
2) for an average Russian, it means Russian;
3) for a Russian irredentist, it refers to the triune, all-Russian nation (after all, Ukrainians Little Russians and Belarusians White Russsians are not really separate ethnicities from Great-Russians to them).
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Old 8th June 2018, 09:16 AM   #84
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What about Sweden, which is named Ruotsi in Finnish?
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Old 8th June 2018, 09:39 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
That's nice, doesn't change the fact the USSR was not Russia, oh and of course neither was Stalin Russian. Are you ever going to deal with hard facts or just keep blundering on repeating your false claims?
I guess it's time for another bump:

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
The same paras in that wiki article say that in Estonia 1,065 estates were expropriated and in Latvia 1,300 estates. Now with the figures there, calculate how much those 50 ha per estate is as percentage of the total land that was owned by the German nobility. Show us for once that you can do highschool math.
I should make one correction: the math required there is primary school math. Vixen claims to be an accountant, and for any accountant, from the most lowly bookkeeper to a partner at a Big Four company, it should be a breeze to do those calculations. I'm beginning to doubt her claims about her profession.
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Old 8th June 2018, 01:13 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
You totally misunderstand the thrust of the OP. The Varangians came to educate and build the strong state of the Kievan Rus' for the poor, illiterate, uncultured hicks of East Slavs that lived there. Because of that, Sweden is entitled to regain overlordship over Belarus, Ukraine and Russia and to rule over the local peasants. The name "slavs" really already says what their intended station in life is, isn't it?
Don't forget Poland. Gustavus Adlophus Lives!
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Old 8th June 2018, 01:18 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Don't forget Poland. Gustavus Adlophus Lives!
But fortunately Adloph Hitler is dead
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Old 8th June 2018, 06:09 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
By "Russian," do you mean russkiy, or do you mean rossiskiy, and do you know the difference without googling?
Would it be to do with the different dynasties? I understand the Rurik dynasty gave way to the Romanov.

"Between 1609 and 17, the Russian War was held. In the wake of the war Russia was the last Rurik-related Tsar Vasili Suiski, who had murdered the first Vale-Dimitri and came to power. However, he was unable to return the order to the ground. Russia had a time of confusion (smutnoje vremja). Vasili Suiski had to seek help from the king of Sweden. As a reward for assistance, Vasili promised Käkisalmi County." [from http://www.paltta.fi]
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Old 8th June 2018, 06:13 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I guess it's time for another bump:


I should make one correction: the math required there is primary school math. Vixen claims to be an accountant, and for any accountant, from the most lowly bookkeeper to a partner at a Big Four company, it should be a breeze to do those calculations. I'm beginning to doubt her claims about her profession.
OK, fair enough, most was removed before Stalin came along.
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Old 8th June 2018, 06:35 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
You totally misunderstand the thrust of the OP. The Varangians came to educate and build the strong state of the Kievan Rus' for the poor, illiterate, uncultured hicks of East Slavs that lived there. Because of that, Sweden is entitled to regain overlordship over Belarus, Ukraine and Russia and to rule over the local peasants. The name "slavs" really already says what their intended station in life is, isn't it?

This is all very droll. However, your constant references to an oppressive force occupying or invading someone else's country, as per your ridiculous analogy to white supremacist South African farmers shows either soneone who hasn't a clue about the history of the Baltic region, or is so screwed up with the politics of envy, you can only see peasants as heroes.

FYI pre 1300's the population of Europe was tiny. In the the Baltic region there was probably only a few hundred thousand. There were no passport controls or borders. People could roam and settle wherever they liked.

The early Germans who migrated to the area were initially crusaders keen to establish Christianity across Europe, secondly, they were simple tradesmen who set up a trading post various ports along the way (Vyborg, Riga) setting up the Hanseatic league.

There was a lot of conflict. As the spoils of war, the victorious generals got to divide the land up, with one third each.

As for the South African farmers, the apartheid regime was abhorrent and wrong, a disgusting and repugnant blot on their copy book. However, if they and their families have been living there for generations, then it is their home, just as much as any other South African.

There is no analogy to the Baltic Germans who have occupied the Baltic region for over seven hundred years.
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Old 8th June 2018, 11:28 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post

FYI pre 1300's the population of Europe was tiny. In the the Baltic region there was probably only a few hundred thousand. There were no passport controls or borders. People could roam and settle wherever they liked.
And if they found pagan Baltic peoples already there they could remove them, as you now proceed to describe.
Quote:
There was a lot of conflict. As the spoils of war, the victorious generals got to divide the land up, with one third each.
That's the "feudal crusader" land grab, and their descendants deserve no compensation for losing it. This is different
Quote:
As for the South African farmers, the apartheid regime was abhorrent and wrong, a disgusting and repugnant blot on their copy book. However, if they and their families have been living there for generations, then it is their home, just as much as any other South African.
So descendants of German Balts have a right to apply for citizenship of the Baltic Republics on the same basis as any other applicants descending from former residents. But no right, as you claim on their behalf, to restitution of estates or ethnic privilege or aristocratic social status.
Quote:
There is no analogy to the Baltic Germans who have occupied the Baltic region for over seven hundred years.
There are many analogies and similarities, including land tenure originating as "spoils of war".

ETA See wiki.
For centuries Baltic GermansWP and the Baltic nobility constituted a ruling class over native non-German serfs ... After the Livonian Crusade, they assumed control of government, politics, economics, education and culture of these lands, ruling for more than 700 years until 1918.

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Old 9th June 2018, 06:36 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
And if they found pagan Baltic peoples already there they could remove them, as you now proceed to describe. That's the "feudal crusader" land grab, and their descendants deserve no compensation for losing it. This is different So descendants of German Balts have a right to apply for citizenship of the Baltic Republics on the same basis as any other applicants descending from former residents. But no right, as you claim on their behalf, to restitution of estates or ethnic privilege or aristocratic social status. There are many analogies and similarities, including land tenure originating as "spoils of war".

ETA See wiki.
For centuries Baltic GermansWP and the Baltic nobility constituted a ruling class over native non-German serfs ... After the Livonian Crusade, they assumed control of government, politics, economics, education and culture of these lands, ruling for more than 700 years until 1918.
They were already citizens before they were thrown out by Hitler/Stalin.

What do you think England's founded on. If you knew what percentage of total land is in the hands of landed individuals, the Crown and huge conglomerates you would realise your idealistic vision is not a realistic one.

So, you come along and take it away from the Duke of Bedford, because of some change of government. And you are not going to compensate him or his family who have been there for generations for hundreds of years?

Yes, they were a ruling class but so are the titled English, French, Swedish, etc.

Even you yourself, if you are a home owner, would expect to be able to leave your wealth and assets to your children, or whoever. Do you want your property to go to the state? If the answer is, no, then you are a hypcocrite.
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Old 9th June 2018, 10:11 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
They were already citizens before they were thrown out by Hitler/Stalin.
As pointed out it was Hitler who removed them and the Baltic states who took away the overwhelming majority of their land. So the answer to your OP is still, no.

Quote:
What do you think England's founded on. If you knew what percentage of total land is in the hands of landed individuals, the Crown and huge conglomerates you would realise your idealistic vision is not a realistic one.
And yet this has nothing to do with your claims about the Baltic Germans being wrong, which is doubtless why you want to focus on it.

Quote:
So, you come along and take it away from the Duke of Bedford, because of some change of government. And you are not going to compensate him or his family who have been there for generations for hundreds of years?
And should they be compensated by the state that actually appropriated the lands or one you've decided should be responsible in contrast to all the facts?

Quote:
Yes, they were a ruling class but so are the titled English, French, Swedish, etc.
There's this little thing called democracy, perhaps you've heard of it? Quite popular in the above countries.
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Old 10th June 2018, 02:59 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Even you yourself, if you are a home owner, would expect to be able to leave your wealth and assets to your children, or whoever. Do you want your property to go to the state? If the answer is, no, then you are a hypcocrite.
I earned the money and bought my home. That is different from being a feudal superior of the property, a category of entitlement that was abolished in Scotland only in 2004, as I have shown. This is one country where feudal relations disappeared from law only a decade ago, so I am aware of the difference between owner occupancy and feudal superiority. The second of these can be abolished without removing the first. That is not hypocrisy, it is common sense. People can still buy homes, live in them and leave them to their children. They can't hold feudal superiority over them. People still work in agriculture, but they are no longer serfs.

Parliaments exist, but they are not now dominated by "titled" aristocrats. Instead, members are elected by universal suffrage. The hereditary monarch is no longer effective head of the government. Do you not know these things?

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Old 10th June 2018, 05:04 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Be careful what you say, you might end up in a Finnish concentration camp.

(and for clarity: these camps were in Eastern Karelia, a region that never was Finnish but that Finland conquered during WW2, something that Vixen also has been denying).
You can't get away with this. I researched the issue of Finnish supposed atrocities in great detail, seeking out original accounts as of the time from deep within the British Library archives.

Virtually all the claims of cruelty at the Finnish POW camps in Karelia were by Communist Soviets, their usual style of propaganda and masters at spin. The truth is, yes, some camp guards were brutal. However, most of the Soviet POW who died did so because of infectious diseases, rampant in such camps, or because they tried to abscond. The number killed due to murder was probably less than 5K in all, which is 5K too many, but compare and contrast the figures for Stalin and Hitler's abominable concentration camps and appalling death marches. British POWs from Dunkirk were fed poisonous ground acorn, starved and made to go on death marches of many miles after the Allied Forces victory.

Look at the greater evil. Had Stalin succeeded in over-running Finland, or the Red rising in Finland succeeded, we, too, would have had our lands expropriated. Communism would then have spread into Sweden, Norway and ultimately Germany (the Baltic States and Poland having succumbed) and down to Italy, which had a strong communist counter movement against their Black Shirts.

Under your politics of envy, all land would belong to the state, as happened in Livonia, Kurland, and surrounding areas.

And Karelia did belong to Finland, via the Swedish Empire, of which it was a part, from circa 1560 - 1720, as did the the areas along the Baltic coastline. How do you think the Baltic German nobility found their way into Finland during that era?
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Old 10th June 2018, 05:11 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I earned the money and bought my home. That is different from being a feudal superior of the property, a category of entitlement that was abolished in Scotland only in 2004, as I have shown. This is one country where feudal relations disappeared from law only a decade ago, so I am aware of the difference between owner occupancy and feudal superiority. The second of these can be abolished without removing the first. That is not hypocrisy, it is common sense. People can still buy homes, live in them and leave them to their children. They can't hold feudal superiority over them. People still work in agriculture, but they are no longer serfs.

Parliaments exist, but they are not now dominated by "titled" aristocrats. Instead, members are elected by universal suffrage. The hereditary monarch is no longer effective head of the government. Do you not know these things?

Yours and Garrison's belief that capital and ownership thereof is under the auspices of 'democracy' is a misapprehension.

Truth is, the House of Lords is made up of peers of the realm (the titled mob, whom you despise) who are not subject to democratic election. Likewise, the army, the monarchy and the police are not governed by democracy.

Democracy is only a tiny part of our constitution, if truth be told.

Incidentally, feudalism was abolished by Russia in 1836 (under whom the Baltic states in question were governed from 1721 to about 1917). So, they weren't feudal lords, but common or garden landowners, no different from the landowning class in the UK or elsewhere.

BTW landowner farmers in England, anyway, can, and do, charge a premium for the yield of crops grown by the tenants who work them, in addition to the rent from letting the fields or pastureland out.
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Old 10th June 2018, 05:13 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You can't get away with this. I researched the issue of Finnish supposed atrocities in great detail, seeking out original accounts as of the time from deep within the British Library archives.
And yet as you have demonstrated in this thread you will ignore any facts that don't fit your theory. What value can anyone here put on your research when you display your prejudices and intellectual dishonesty so clearly?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yours and Garrison's belief that capital and ownership thereof is under the auspices of 'democracy' is a misapprehension.
And amazingly this latest misrepresentation does nothing to change the answer to your OP, which is still no.
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Old 10th June 2018, 05:17 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
And yet as you have demonstrated in this thread you will ignore any facts that don't fit your theory. What value can anyone here put on your research when you display your prejudices and intellectual dishonesty so clearly?
Heavy on grandstanding, light on content.

Nice.
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Old 10th June 2018, 05:20 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Heavy on grandstanding, light on content.

Nice.
Well no it's not nice, if you stopped doing it and dealt with the facts that would be nice.

You posted a link in the OP to facts that refuted your position and everything since has been your attempt to ignore those facts with a wealth of inaccurate or irrelevant material, grandstanding at its best.
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Old 10th June 2018, 05:31 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Well no it's not nice, if you stopped doing it and dealt with the facts that would be nice.

You posted a link in the OP to facts that refuted your position and everything since has been your attempt to ignore those facts with a wealth of inaccurate or irrelevant material, grandstanding at its best.
The thrust holds. They were removed by Hitler ahead of Operation Barbarossa, and then the remainder by Stalin.

They never got their land back, nor adequate recompense for the loss of their home of >700 years.
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Old 10th June 2018, 06:13 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The thrust holds. They were removed by Hitler ahead of Operation Barbarossa, and then the remainder by Stalin.

They never got their land back, nor adequate recompense for the loss of their home of >700 years.
95% of which was taken by the Baltic Republics long before WWII, a fact you seem incapable of acknowledging.
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Old 10th June 2018, 06:42 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes, they were a ruling class but so are the titled English, French, Swedish, etc.
French nobility??? You may have heard of this little spat called the French Revolution. It expropriated their possessions, stripped them of their titles and (political) privileges, and made many of them also part with their heads.

For the rest, the present tense in that sentence is ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Truth is, the House of Lords is made up of peers of the realm (the titled mob, whom you despise) who are not subject to democratic election. Likewise, the army, the monarchy and the police are not governed by democracy.
Nowadays, only 90 members of the Lords are hereditary peers, on a total of (now) 779 seats. Apart from them and the 26 Spiritual Lords, all members of the Lords are life peers who have been appointed by the Monarch on suggestion of the PM, typically due to their past merit to country and/or party. The hereditary peers are a relic of history, due to British/English fondness of tradition, and such an institution is not found elsewhere in the democratic first world.
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Old 10th June 2018, 06:48 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It was only some of it. Stalin expropriated the remainder.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
OK, fair enough, most was removed
So you already moved from "some" to "most". But I didn't ask for vague words, I asked for an actual calculation. Show us the math what percentage that "most" was that the Latvian and Estonian governments expropriated in 1918-1920.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
before Stalin came along.
And stop lying. It was Hitler's idea to have the Baltic Germans relocated to the Wartheland. If anywhere, they should complain with the German government that they gave them property that was not theirs to give.
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Old 10th June 2018, 07:03 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You can't get away with this. I researched the issue of Finnish supposed atrocities in great detail, seeking out original accounts as of the time from deep within the British Library archives.

Virtually all the claims of cruelty at the Finnish POW camps in Karelia were by Communist Soviets, their usual style of propaganda and masters at spin. The truth is, yes, some camp guards were brutal. However, most of the Soviet POW who died did so because of infectious diseases, rampant in such camps, or because they tried to abscond. The number killed due to murder was probably less than 5K in all, which is 5K too many, but compare and contrast the figures for Stalin and Hitler's abominable concentration camps and appalling death marches. British POWs from Dunkirk were fed poisonous ground acorn, starved and made to go on death marches of many miles after the Allied Forces victory.

Look at the greater evil. Had Stalin succeeded in over-running Finland, or the Red rising in Finland succeeded, we, too, would have had our lands expropriated. Communism would then have spread into Sweden, Norway and ultimately Germany (the Baltic States and Poland having succumbed) and down to Italy, which had a strong communist counter movement against their Black Shirts.

Under your politics of envy, all land would belong to the state, as happened in Livonia, Kurland, and surrounding areas.

And Karelia did belong to Finland, via the Swedish Empire, of which it was a part, from circa 1560 - 1720, as did the the areas along the Baltic coastline. How do you think the Baltic German nobility found their way into Finland during that era?
Stop lying.

I'm talking about East Karelia, which has been part of Novgorod/Muscovy/Russia at least since the Treaty of Nöteborg in 1323. It was not part of Sweden when Finland became a Russian duchy in 1808, and it was not part of Finland when it became independent in 1918. It was conquered by Finland 1941-1944 during the Continuation war, and the Russian inhabitants - not POW - were interned in concentration camps with a mortality rate of around 30%.

So, stop lying that Finland never went beyond the borders before the Winter War during the Continuation War. And stop speaking about POW when I'm discussing civilian internees.
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Old 10th June 2018, 07:06 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The thrust holds. They were removed by Hitler ahead of Operation Barbarossa,
No, after the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and the invasion of Poland.
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Old 10th June 2018, 07:41 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Incidentally, feudalism was abolished by Russia in 1836 (under whom the Baltic states in question were governed from 1721 to about 1917). So, they weren't feudal lords, but common or garden landowners, no different from the landowning class in the UK or elsewhere.
Another fail.

The abolition of serfdom in the Baltics came a bit earlier, but it came with a snag:
Quote:
In 1816, 1817, and 1819 serfdom was abolished in Estland, Courland, and Livonia respectively.[20] However all the land stayed in noble hands and labor rent lasted till 1868. It was replaced with landless laborers and sharecropping (halbkörner). Landless workers had to ask permission to leave an estate.
Being bound to the estate is the core property of serfdom. So, after this "abolition", the formerly de-jure serfs were still landless and thus still bound to the estate, and thus still de-facto serfs.

The Russia-wide abolition of serfdom only occurred in 1861. The year 1836 doesn't figure in the story, you seem to have wholly invented that year.
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Old 10th June 2018, 07:47 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You can't get away with this. I researched the issue of Finnish supposed atrocities in great detail, seeking out original accounts as of the time from deep within the British Library archives.
I am really dumbfounded why you keep trotting out these grandiose claims that you "researched" something. You post an OP with obvious contradictions to the source you cite. You refuse to do a simple calculation even though it's your everyday's job. The share of even simple facts you claim is lower than the share of their lands the Baltic Germans got to keep after independence of the Baltic republics.

As I said in the "100 years Finland" thread, a bit more bluntly than Garrison did above, if you did any research at all, it seems to have been supervised by Willis Carto. And that also applies to this thread, because, again, you make apologetics for Hitler's actions.
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Old 10th June 2018, 08:33 AM   #108
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And anyway, I don't see the problem. Per the wiki article in the OP:
Quote:
In spring of 1918 Baltic Germans announced restoration of independent Duchy of Courland and Semigallia and pursued plans for uniting it with the Kingdom of Prussia. On April 12, 1918 Baltic German representatives from all Baltic provinces met in Riga and called on the German Emperor to annex Baltic lands.
So, in 1918 the Baltic-German nobility wanted to live in Germany. In 1945, they got their wish. What really is the problem?
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Old 10th June 2018, 03:20 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Stop lying.

I'm talking about East Karelia, which has been part of Novgorod/Muscovy/Russia at least since the Treaty of Nöteborg in 1323. It was not part of Sweden when Finland became a Russian duchy in 1808, and it was not part of Finland when it became independent in 1918. It was conquered by Finland 1941-1944 during the Continuation war, and the Russian inhabitants - not POW - were interned in concentration camps with a mortality rate of around 30%.

So, stop lying that Finland never went beyond the borders before the Winter War during the Continuation War. And stop speaking about POW when I'm discussing civilian internees.
Stop lying. Finland became independent in 1917.

From having been regularly overrun by swathes of Slavs over the centuries, it was only apposite that Finland should try to reclaim ancient Finnish homelands.

The mayors of the Karelian regions asked the Finns to rescue them from the Soviet yoke.
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Old 10th June 2018, 03:28 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
And anyway, I don't see the problem. Per the wiki article in the OP:

So, in 1918 the Baltic-German nobility wanted to live in Germany. In 1945, they got their wish. What really is the problem?
No. In 1939 Germany made a secret pact with the Soviet Union to repatriate Baltic Germans so that the USSR could take over the Estonia-Latvia-Lithuania countries, which came into being in 1920. The Baltic Germans were not consulted. By 1944 the 'repatriation' was forcible. Those who refused to leave their homeland of over 700 years were sent to the Gulags by the Soviets.

How you can condone this treatment?
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Old 10th June 2018, 03:37 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I am really dumbfounded why you keep trotting out these grandiose claims that you "researched" something. You post an OP with obvious contradictions to the source you cite. You refuse to do a simple calculation even though it's your everyday's job. The share of even simple facts you claim is lower than the share of their lands the Baltic Germans got to keep after independence of the Baltic republics.

As I said in the "100 years Finland" thread, a bit more bluntly than Garrison did above, if you did any research at all, it seems to have been supervised by Willis Carto. And that also applies to this thread, because, again, you make apologetics for Hitler's actions.
What a disgraceful comment. I have nothing but repugnance and disgust for Hitler and his actions, and his supporters. I have never said anything in support of his regime.

Yad Vashem quotes exactly the same figures as me.

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
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Old 12th June 2018, 05:40 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
There's this little thing called democracy, perhaps you've heard of it? Quite popular in the above countries.
Vixen doesn't like democracy:
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There was more to it than land. There were voting privileges and the right to be a member of the Landrat.
See, she complains that the Baltic-German nobility lost its political privileges.
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Old 12th June 2018, 06:03 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Stop lying. Finland became independent in 1917.
No, Finland declared independence in 1917. Soviet Russia only recognized it on 4 January 1918.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
From having been regularly overrun by swathes of Slavs over the centuries,
<citation required>
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
it was only apposite that Finland should try to reclaim ancient Finnish homelands.
Finland never having been an independent state before 1918, it's a bit tenuous to what "ancient Finnish homelands" are. What's your opinion on Kosovo?

Besides, Karelians are not Finns, they're a people of their own.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The mayors of the Karelian regions asked the Finns to rescue them from the Soviet yoke.
Yeah right. That's always the excuse of patriotic scoundrels with an expansionist agenda. I note the complete lack of citations for this claim.
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Old 12th June 2018, 06:11 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What a disgraceful comment. I have nothing but repugnance and disgust for Hitler and his actions, and his supporters. I have never said anything in support of his regime.
You keep assigning blame on the relocation of the Baltic Germans primarily on Stalin, and when you mention Hitler, it's "he moved them out ahead of Barbarossa", as if he's moving them out of harm's way. Yes, your verbiage is quite apologetic of Hitler.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yad Vashem quotes exactly the same figures as me.
What grandstanding. You say that as if you're the authority and not Yad Vashem.

Besides, you've repeatedly ignored and denied, when pressed multiple times, to acknowledge the figures Yad Vashem quotes on Polish, Belarus, Ukranian, and Russian victims of the Nazi regime.
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Old 12th June 2018, 07:20 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No. In 1939 Germany made a secret pact with the Soviet Union to repatriate Baltic Germans so that the USSR could take over the Estonia-Latvia-Lithuania countries, which came into being in 1920. The Baltic Germans were not consulted. By 1944 the 'repatriation' was forcible.
Shall we look at (the translation of) the actual text of the confidential protocol annexed to the German-Soviet Boundary and Friendship Treaty of 28 September 1939:
Quote:
The Government of the U.S.S.R. shall place no obstacles in the way of Reich nationals and other persons of German descent residing in the territories under its jurisdiction, if they desire to migrate to Germany or to the territories under German jurisdiction. It agrees that such removals shall be carried out by agents of the Government of the Reich in cooperation with the competent local authorities and that the property rights of the emigrants shall be protected. A corresponding obligation is assumed by the Government of the German Reich in respect to the persons of Ukrainian or White Russian descent residing in the territories under its jurisdiction.
There are several factual errors in your post:
1) the role of the Soviet Union was a passive one, not active one.
2) it was not a precondition for the USSR to take over the Baltic republics, the protocol applied as well to Germans living in the then-USSR.
3) relocation was not compulsory, it says literally "if they desire"
4) of course, the Baltic Germans didn't have to be consulted to be granted the right to go "Heim ins Reich".

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Those who refused to leave their homeland of over 700 years were sent to the Gulags by the Soviets.
Some of those, not all. Why don't you quote some actual numbers? It's odd that you, as an accountant, haven't posted a single number in this thread. How do the balance and revenue sheets you prepare or check look like? Do they contain words like "a lot", "some", or, you know, actual figures?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How you can condone this treatment?
Where did I do that?
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Old 12th June 2018, 12:51 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
No, Finland declared independence in 1917. Soviet Russia only recognized it on 4 January 1918.


<citation required>

Finland never having been an independent state before 1918, it's a bit tenuous to what "ancient Finnish homelands" are. What's your opinion on Kosovo?

Besides, Karelians are not Finns, they're a people of their own.


Yeah right. That's always the excuse of patriotic scoundrels with an expansionist agenda. I note the complete lack of citations for this claim.

Who cares when the Soviets recognised it. It is official. The date of independence is 6 Dec 1917, as commemorated every year.

from wiki:

Quote:
Independence Day was first celebrated in 1917. However, during the first years of independence, 6 December in some parts of Finland was only a minor holiday compared to 16 May, the Whites' day of celebration for prevailing in the Finnish Civil War.
Date‎: ‎6 December
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Old 12th June 2018, 12:53 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
No, Finland declared independence in 1917. Soviet Russia only recognized it on 4 January 1918.


<citation required>

Finland never having been an independent state before 1918, it's a bit tenuous to what "ancient Finnish homelands" are. What's your opinion on Kosovo?

Besides, Karelians are not Finns, they're a people of their own.


Yeah right. That's always the excuse of patriotic scoundrels with an expansionist agenda. I note the complete lack of citations for this claim.
You're kidding right? You are unaware of just how many times the Russians have invaded Finland?

Part list here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...sia_and_Sweden
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Old 12th June 2018, 01:17 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Shall we look at (the translation of) the actual text of the confidential protocol annexed to the German-Soviet Boundary and Friendship Treaty of 28 September 1939:

There are several factual errors in your post:
1) the role of the Soviet Union was a passive one, not active one.
2) it was not a precondition for the USSR to take over the Baltic republics, the protocol applied as well to Germans living in the then-USSR.
3) relocation was not compulsory, it says literally "if they desire"
4) of course, the Baltic Germans didn't have to be consulted to be granted the right to go "Heim ins Reich".


Some of those, not all. Why don't you quote some actual numbers? It's odd that you, as an accountant, haven't posted a single number in this thread. How do the balance and revenue sheets you prepare or check look like? Do they contain words like "a lot", "some", or, you know, actual figures?


Where did I do that?
Whilst officially, it was indeed a voluntary repatriation, in reality, when your compatriots are being executed and carted off to the Gulag, or you are having your property confiscated by the state with no recompense, I would say that was forceful removal.
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Old 12th June 2018, 01:30 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Who cares when the Soviets recognised it.
Apparently, everybody did. From wiki:
Quote:
Svinhufvud immediately asked Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Germany and France to recognise Finland's independence. The West, however, said they would wait until the former ruler, Russia, recognised the declaration. They told Svinhufvud to talk to Lenin's Bolshevik Government.
And so he did, and when the Bolsheviks recognized it, those countries followed suit.
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Old 12th June 2018, 01:36 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You're kidding right? You are unaware of just how many times the Russians have invaded Finland?

Part list here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...sia_and_Sweden
And in how many of those wars did Russia invade Finland? You're referring to a list where at least 90% of the listed items simply do not apply.

Besides that, a war does not automatically mean the ethnic makeup of the place changed.
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