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Tags donald trump , Trump controversies

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Old 11th June 2018, 06:08 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
To recycle an old joke, the Trump Presidential Library will contain two books, and one of them won't be fully colored-in.
Nope. Trump is opposed to recycling.
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Old 11th June 2018, 06:55 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
US law prevents government officials destroying any and all records, period.
I doubt that. Rather, it probably requires a destruction schedule with minimum retention periods for certain types of documents. Keep indefinitely is undoubtedly one schedule, 2 years 5 years and 7 years are probably also common.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It was the whole basis of the Clinton email BS.
The above is why most of the complaints re Clinton were complete BS. There was a legal retention/destruction policy in place and it was largely followed. Apparently there was an issue where staffers failed to properly destroy some documents on it’s schedule and then destroyed it after it was requested, which is a no-no but AFIK there is no evidence of this being anything but a staffer not doing their job properly.
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Old 11th June 2018, 07:02 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The bigger scandal is that the White House still uses paper. I can understand it for documents that require signatures. No doubt they have embossing and raised seals for authentication purposes. But I mean, seriously, every memo, every newspaper clipping, etc, that crosses his desk has to be saved?
Destruction and archiving policy for electronic records is a major PITA. They can proliferate and find their way into tape backups that are kept for decades past their scheduled destruction, they can also be “archived” in formats that are obsolete and no longer readable and all forms of electronic media have lifespans that are frequently much shorter than the required life of the document. With paper based records you can much more easily have an official authoritative version of a document and keep it for centuries if required.
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Old 11th June 2018, 08:18 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Do we? There is no penalty for the president violating the law in the law. It's totally silent on the issue. The best you could do is impeach, if you consider this either a high crime or misdemeanor. It's not like a FOIA violation, which actually has a penalty in the law. But the president is not covered by that act.
Destruction of evidence is a criminal act, above and beyond the specific records law violation.

And we (as in the American people), can do more than wait for Congress to impeach. A couple million people surrounding the WH demanding Trump's surrender to them would be a good start.

The problem is that the American Left loves process too much and won't accept that we are under the rule of an illegitimate government that refuses to place itself subject to the law.
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Old 11th June 2018, 08:20 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
And here I was under the impression that this point in history was going to be a time everyone wanted to forget.
Only once we've undone it all, and to do that we need to know what all he has done.
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Old 11th June 2018, 08:24 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
But the idea that everything needs to be on paper is wrong. It increases global warming, results in the needless slaughter of many trees, not to mention the price of ink these days.
E-documents are too easy to "memory hole", and retrieval many years later after system changes becomes problematic.
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Old 11th June 2018, 08:31 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
But the idea that everything needs to be on paper is wrong.
I don't think everything NEEDS to be on paper, but there are some times when using paper is the preferred method.

When something is on paper you can easily write little notes in the margin. Circle things of importance. No need to worry about having your computer around and either charged or with an electrical outlet nearby. Paper also tends to be better in brighter lighting conditions.

I work with computers. You would think that I'd be the most likely to want to go paperless. But my desk has several printouts of code and database tables with various lines crossed out, highlighted, and annotated.
Quote:
It increases global warming...
Chinese hoax!
Quote:
results in the needless slaughter of many trees...
Many of the trees are grown specifically with the purpose of harvesting them. Plus, the paper can either be recycled, or burned (which can be used to generate electricity).

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...gy-make-sense/
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Old 11th June 2018, 08:59 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I wouldn't say everything Trump does is about secrecy.

I mean, put him in a room with some Russian reporters and he'll start to give away classified information. Not much secrecy there.
Good point. Put him in a room for a national television interview and he'll confess to obstruction of justice.
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Old 11th June 2018, 09:38 AM   #49
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Old 11th June 2018, 10:12 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
To recycle an old joke, the Trump Presidential Library will contain two books, and one of them won't be fully colored-in.

You know, it's a joke, but when reading that article, I did wonder, "What is this going to look like if these documents are ever used for historical purposes, or put on display in his Presidential library?" Can you imagine a display in which half the important documents are ripped up and then taped back together? How tacky and unprofessional would that look?


But it's nice to see that, once again, the people who hounded Obama and Clinton for every perceived slip are okay with Trump just deliberately, and continuously, violating the law.
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Old 11th June 2018, 10:28 AM   #51
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I wonder if there is a connection between Republicans' infatuation with their favorite knee-jerk response "but her emails!!" and it being a homophone with "buttery males!!"?
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Old 11th June 2018, 10:43 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
You know, it's a joke, but when reading that article, I did wonder, "What is this going to look like if these documents are ever used for historical purposes, or put on display in his Presidential library?" Can you imagine a display in which half the important documents are ripped up and then taped back together? How tacky and unprofessional would that look?

It seems like that would be an accurate representation of the administration.
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Old 11th June 2018, 11:07 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm betting this will be the One Thing that brings Trump down.
Do you approve of the President destroying documents that are legally required to be kept?

Do you approve of staffers being let go for trying to retain these documents?

Do you approve of not providing required documents on white house expenses?
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Old 11th June 2018, 11:23 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
It is so pervasive that staffers have to retrieve them and tape them back together again to comply with Federal law...

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...-system-635164

And the staffers that did this were forced to resign for no given reason.

Usurper Trump's criminal habits know no end.
Does it strike you as odd that a lifetime government employee would sign a resignation letter against their will with no cause and not go to Human Resources about it? It is possible this is true but it looks fishy also.
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Old 11th June 2018, 11:32 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Does it strike you as odd that a lifetime government employee would sign a resignation letter against their will with no cause and not go to Human Resources about it? It is possible this is true but it looks fishy also.
Not really, given what I've heard of Trump's habit of gathering (and using) potential blackmail material on everyone who works around him.

Also, forced resignation is an old old corporate trick designed to keep people from potential compensation or legal recourse.
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Old 11th June 2018, 11:37 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Not really, given what I've heard of Trump's habit of gathering (and using) potential blackmail material on everyone who works around him.

Also, forced resignation is an old old corporate trick designed to keep people from potential compensation or legal recourse.
This is a lifetime government employee we are talking about. Do you think it is easy to fire without cause.
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Old 11th June 2018, 11:39 AM   #57
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Old 11th June 2018, 11:40 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post

And the staffers that did this were forced to resign for no given reason.
(Edited)
Odd that the article first says:
Quote:
Lartey, 54, and Young, 48, were career government officials who worked together in records management until this spring, when both were abruptly terminated from their jobs. Both are now unemployed and still full of questions about why they were stripped of their badges with no explanation and marched off of the White House grounds by Secret Service.
then later says they were forced to resign, which is not the same thing at all. How do you force someone to resign, anyway?
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Old 11th June 2018, 11:42 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
It's only wrong if Loser Libs do it.
Libs do it?
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Old 11th June 2018, 11:46 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
This is a lifetime government employee we are talking about. Do you think it is easy to fire without cause.
With a normal administration? No. Nothing is normal about the Trump regime though...

Again, this is an old old corporation HR ploy.
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Old 11th June 2018, 11:48 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
(Edited)
Odd that the article first says:


then later says they were forced to resign, which is not the same thing at all. How do you force someone to resign, anyway?
The article talks about that. They were later forced to sign letters of resignation.
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Old 11th June 2018, 11:57 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
With a normal administration? No. Nothing is normal about the Trump regime though...

Again, this is an old old corporation HR ploy.
Do you have any experience in the government sector? I have been a federal employee.
Do you think (I suspect you do) Trump has gathered blackmail information on low level employees from records management?
Do you think there is a possibility these are two employees who were fired for just cause?

Last edited by eeyore1954; 11th June 2018 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 11th June 2018, 02:47 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
It seems like that would be an accurate representation of the administration.
Okay, I'll have to give you that.



Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
(Edited)
Odd that the article first says:


then later says they were forced to resign, which is not the same thing at all. How do you force someone to resign, anyway?

Sometimes people don't know their rights, and can get bamboozled in stressful situations, which this sounded like. Being escorted out of the building, having their top secret clearances revoked, all that? I could see someone getting spooked, and thinking that if they don't sign, they'll be in even more trouble.

We recently had something like that where I work: Management wanted to change some of the working conditions for people in my job, which a lot of us were unhappy with. They offered to let us keep our current arrangements if we voluntarily accepted a demotion (and pay cut), and several people took that option before the Union got involved, and told them they didn't have to do that. Even if the new plan stands, and management demotes anyone who won't comply, they still have to be paid at their old rate, according to the union contract.

But some people didn't know that, and panicked trying to avoid the changes.
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Old 11th June 2018, 02:51 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Destruction of evidence is a criminal act, above and beyond the specific records law violation.

And we (as in the American people), can do more than wait for Congress to impeach. A couple million people surrounding the WH demanding Trump's surrender to them would be a good start.

The problem is that the American Left loves process too much and won't accept that we are under the rule of an illegitimate government that refuses to place itself subject to the law.
Destruction of evidence is only a crime when there is a crime that the evidence speaks to. Records, and that is what these are, government records, are not evidence in and of themselves.

Trump surrendering to a mob is not something he would do. It would be also horrible precedent to set. Surrender to them? Yes, because justice is always best served by a lynch mob. It's not just a process, it's the rule of law. It's important.
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Old 11th June 2018, 03:13 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Destruction of evidence is only a crime when there is a crime that the evidence speaks to. Records, and that is what these are, government records, are not evidence in and of themselves.

Trump surrendering to a mob is not something he would do. It would be also horrible precedent to set. Surrender to them? Yes, because justice is always best served by a lynch mob. It's not just a process, it's the rule of law. It's important.
I read it as a surrendering to their demands, not physically into their hands for summary justice.
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Old 11th June 2018, 03:24 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
This is a lifetime government employee we are talking about. Do you think it is easy to fire without cause.
It depends on their specific jobs. Some government jobs, particularly in the White House, do not carry civil service protections. Many WH employees serve at the pleasure of the President. And for some government employees, being "fired" might really just mean getting transferred to some other government job. Either way, you don't get to say "I refuse to leave the White House."
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Old 11th June 2018, 03:29 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
(Edited)
Odd that the article first says:


then later says they were forced to resign, which is not the same thing at all. How do you force someone to resign, anyway?
Any organization will give someone the option of resigning, maybe in exchange for severance pay or a good reference, vs. firing them and maybe dealing with a wrongful termination suit. And if you resign, you can give future prospective employers vague excuses about "bad fit," "exploring other options," "reorganization," etc., rather than admitting you were fired for cause."Resign or be fired" is a powerful incentive.
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Old 11th June 2018, 03:53 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Destruction of evidence is only a crime when there is a crime that the evidence speaks to. Records, and that is what these are, government records, are not evidence in and of themselves.

Trump surrendering to a mob is not something he would do. It would be also horrible precedent to set. Surrender to them? Yes, because justice is always best served by a lynch mob. It's not just a process, it's the rule of law. It's important.
A agree with EVERYTHING you just said.

I would just like to add.
Trump destroying records is in itself evidence not of a crime per se although it is illegal. (There is a difference) It does however demonstrate the mind of a criminal. It is a leave no evidence behind and to do it in such a way that one cannot point to the selective destruction of records or documents that are possibly incriminating.
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Old 11th June 2018, 05:31 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Do you have any experience in the government sector?
No, but I have experience and have read about with how corporations work.

Quote:
I have been a federal employee.
Under Trump?

Quote:
Do you think (I suspect you do) Trump has gathered blackmail information on low level employees from records management?
Do I know that? No. Do I think it possible? Yes.

What I do know is the Trump has a history of mafia strong-arming tactics like that...

Quote:
Do you think there is a possibility these are two employees who were fired for just cause?
If they had a legit cause, the regime would trumpet that as loud as they could. That's how Trump operates.
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Old 11th June 2018, 05:36 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Destruction of evidence is only a crime when there is a crime that the evidence speaks to. Records, and that is what these are, government records, are not evidence in and of themselves.
Not where positive record keeping laws apply (and they do to govt officials while in office).

Quote:
Trump surrendering to a mob is not something he would do. It would be also horrible precedent to set. Surrender to them? Yes, because justice is always best served by a lynch mob. It's not just a process, it's the rule of law. It's important.
If those enforcing the law refuse to hold themselves subject to that law, the people are released from their obligation to do so as well.

Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
I read it as a surrendering to their demands, not physically into their hands for summary justice.
Depends on how far the regime takes things. It wouldn't be the first time the people physically kicked out a tyrant.
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Old 12th June 2018, 06:32 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Not where positive record keeping laws apply (and they do to govt officials while in office).
You don't get to turn government records into "evidence" Yes, he has a positive responsibility to turn them over to the archives. But it's not a crime if he doesn't do it. It's specifically not a crime and you can't turn it into one.

Quote:
If those enforcing the law refuse to hold themselves subject to that law, the people are released from their obligation to do so as well.
Pro 2nd amendment?

Keep in mind, there is no crime that in punishable being committed here. None. Congress specifically wrote one for FOIA but not the PRA. So what punishment should they hold themselves to?

Quote:
Depends on how far the regime takes things. It wouldn't be the first time the people physically kicked out a tyrant.
Yes, because a crowd of morons shouting "lock her up" should be our metric for justice.

How many presidents do you think we'd have if all it too was less than 1% of the population protesting outside the whitehouse? We have elections for a reason, and as bad as you think Trump is, your ideas are guaranteed to destroy the country faster than Trump could do. Your idea is worse that President Trump.

Last edited by Leftus; 12th June 2018 at 06:34 AM. Reason: Quote tags without enogh coffee
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Old 12th June 2018, 06:42 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Under Trump?
How do you think life as a federal employee has changed between Obama and Trump?
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Old 12th June 2018, 07:12 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
How do you think life as a federal employee has changed between Obama and Trump?
Ask the good folks at the EPA.
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Old 12th June 2018, 07:48 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Ask the good folks at the EPA.
That's not an answer. Asking how someone thinks it has changed and deflecting to "ask someone else" is not addressing statement that working under Trump has fundamentally changed vs. working under Obama.

Focuses change with any administration.

If you think it's fundamentally changed, then explain why, and try to not make assumptions as to how or why.
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Old 12th June 2018, 08:24 PM   #75
Bob001
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
That's not an answer. Asking how someone thinks it has changed and deflecting to "ask someone else" is not addressing statement that working under Trump has fundamentally changed vs. working under Obama.

Focuses change with any administration.

If you think it's fundamentally changed, then explain why, and try to not make assumptions as to how or why.

I think he was assuming you read the papers. The disasters at EPA have been covered extensively. Scott Pruitt has always had close ties to the energy industry, and he is actively dismantling the EPA's (Environmental Protection Agency) regulatory framework. He also has restricted the information regarding matters like climate change and pollution that federal workers can make public. And that's all apart from him using federal employees as his personal servants, in contravention of federal law.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/topof...406-story.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/26/o...ience-epa.html
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...llution-rules/

Etc., etc.
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Old 12th June 2018, 08:33 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
You don't get to turn government records into "evidence" Yes, he has a positive responsibility to turn them over to the archives. But it's not a crime if he doesn't do it. It's specifically not a crime and you can't turn it into one.
......
It is a regulation that past presidents have honored. Trump's behavior illustrates the larger problem: every previous President has come to the White House after substantial experience in public service in lower (usually multiple) levels of government or the military or often both. They have understood and embraced their public responsibilities and have been committed to the processes of good government. They are constrained by custom, tradition and respect for the office. Trump sees the world entirely in terms of what's good for him, including feeding his base, and approaches the Presidency as if it was an extension of his sleazy real estate business. Literally nothing else matters to him. And that's one reason why he feels free to insult, demean and threaten our closest allies, and cozy up to a bloodthirsty tyrant. The primary question on his mind is who's telling him how wonderful he is today?

Last edited by Bob001; 12th June 2018 at 08:35 PM.
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Old 12th June 2018, 10:48 PM   #77
autumn1971
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It is a regulation that past presidents have honored. Trump's behavior illustrates the larger problem: every previous President has come to the White House after substantial experience in public service in lower (usually multiple) levels of government or the military or often both. They have understood and embraced their public responsibilities and have been committed to the processes of good government. They are constrained by custom, tradition and respect for the office. Trump sees the world entirely in terms of what's good for him, including feeding his base, and approaches the Presidency as if it was an extension of his sleazy real estate business. Literally nothing else matters to him. And that's one reason why he feels free to insult, demean and threaten our closest allies, and cozy up to a bloodthirsty tyrant. The primary question on his mind is who's telling him how wonderful he is today?
That would be representatives of the DPRK.

South Korea's only hope is that Trump learns that the "D" stands for "Democratic" and assumes they're an enemy.

And yes, I really do think that the name would change Trump's opinion; either of the North Koreans or Democrats.
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Old 13th June 2018, 07:10 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I think he was assuming you read the papers. The disasters at EPA have been covered extensively. Scott Pruitt has always had close ties to the energy industry, and he is actively dismantling the EPA's (Environmental Protection Agency) regulatory framework. He also has restricted the information regarding matters like climate change and pollution that federal workers can make public. And that's all apart from him using federal employees as his personal servants, in contravention of federal law.
Etc., etc.
None of your links addressed the last point.

Pruitt should be in jail. His misuse of federal funds to build a top secret phone booth was criminal, and questionable. But everything you listed is nothing more than agency focus which changes with every administration.

Keep in mind, the discussion was based on the hiring and firing practices, working or getting fired under Trump vs. Obama.
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Old 13th June 2018, 07:13 AM   #79
Leftus
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It is a regulation that past presidents have honored. Trump's behavior illustrates the larger problem: every previous President has come to the White House after substantial experience in public service in lower (usually multiple) levels of government or the military or often both. They have understood and embraced their public responsibilities and have been committed to the processes of good government. They are constrained by custom, tradition and respect for the office. Trump sees the world entirely in terms of what's good for him, including feeding his base, and approaches the Presidency as if it was an extension of his sleazy real estate business. Literally nothing else matters to him. And that's one reason why he feels free to insult, demean and threaten our closest allies, and cozy up to a bloodthirsty tyrant. The primary question on his mind is who's telling him how wonderful he is today?
I've got no love for the man. I'm not sure, as far as transparency goes, the alternate would have been any better.

I do think that he might be, in the long run, good for the country. We have, for far too long, ceded power to the office. It's time for Congress to take back some of their constitutional power and, well, do their damn job. His horribleness might bring some balance back to the checks and balances equation.
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Old 13th June 2018, 07:37 AM   #80
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It's perfectly nice and reasonable to complain about "gubm'nt waste hurr durr" yet have to employ people only to save your boss from breaking the law because of one of his many tics.
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