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Old 12th June 2018, 09:21 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
It is not that the law is complicated; it is a matter of interpretation. The crux of the matter is: how a State can determine whether a voter may have moved? When can they kick off the steps in subsection (d)? Ohio argues that a person not voting for two years can be used as a indicator that a person may have moved.

Subsection (c) says the State "may" use Postal Service information. Not "may only" or even "shall". I think Congress used "may" intentionally so that a State could use other information to indicate that a person may have moved. An example in the majority opinion is a person who has turned in a driver's license.

The question then is whether a State can use non-voting as a means to determine that a person may have moved, or whether that is invalid because it relies solely on non-voting. The majority opinion is that it is allowed because the the person is not being removed "solely" for non-voting because they are sent the card.
What does postal information mean? If I'm not mistaken. Supposedly a non-returned post card qualifies as 'postal information'.
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Old 12th June 2018, 11:38 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What does postal information mean? If I'm not mistaken. Supposedly a non-returned post card qualifies as 'postal information'.
I would expect that "postal information" might include mail forwarding instructions, mail returned to post office, etc.
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Old 12th June 2018, 11:59 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
That's a very partisan way of looking at this.

What I see when I look at it is a party finding loopholes in law that allows them to gain an unfair advantage on their opponents, thus cementing their rule. This is a mortal blow to democracy. The Supreme court should serve as a counter-weight to partisan power grabs, but as it has been thoroughly politicized, it clearly doesn't.

I expect the US to drop further in the democracy index. A flawed democracy right now, swiftly sliding towards authoritarianism.
Are you prepared to do something about it other then just moan and cry about it?
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Old 12th June 2018, 12:01 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What does postal information mean? If I'm not mistaken. Supposedly a non-returned post card qualifies as 'postal information'.
You are putting the cart before the horse there. The postal information is used to send the notice.

But you have a good question. It says “change-of-address information supplied by the Postal Service through its licensees is used to identify registrants whose addresses may have changed.” I’m not sure, but looking into it more it appears that only means people who have filed a change of address with the Postal Service. That means it would not include mail returned as undeliverable, because then there is no new address. That would make this type of registration purging very limited.

This same law is echoed in 52 USC 21083(a)(4) under the title “Minimum standard for accuracy of State voter registration records.”

If I am now reading it correctly, using the Postal Service change-of-address information is just the minimum requirement. A State is required to remove ineligible borrower. At the very minimum it could meet that requirement by just getting the Postal Service data and sending notices to those people.

But that is just the minimum it needs to do to meet Federal law. The State can do other things beyond that to update its voter registrations. That is where Ohio’s “supplemental” process of sending notices to people who have not voted for two years comes in. The majority opinion says it is reasonable to assume that people who have not voted for a certain number of years may have moved because subsection (d) itself uses non-voting as a criteria that indicates a voter has moved (no voting in the next two Federal elections after the notice has been not returned.)
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Old 12th June 2018, 12:02 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
There is an argument there, but it is not relevant to determining what the law is. Congress said thou shalt not unless you do x, y and z. Ohio did x, y and z, and opened the door to thou mayest.

And honestly, the courts should not be looking at the potential partisan impacts of the decisions they make. Remember, Ginsburg will probably have to retire sometime soon and odds are good that Trump will get to name her successor.

Look at the Ohio law in terms of the federal one, and the decision seems really clear. The majority of the Supremes were reading the law and the minority were reading the tea leaves of the argument that this disproportionately impacts the Democrats. Oddly enough they are not yet a protected class.
One party authoratrian rule is fine if it's the right party
The Party of Lincoln has become the Party of One Party Dictatorship.
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Old 12th June 2018, 12:22 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What? No. This is wrong. It is bad, immoral.

This is the most literally fascist thing I have read on this forum. I denounce it, and I denounce you.

I want to make it absolutely clear that you do not represent my politics in any way, shape, or form.
I mostly disagree with your politics, but they are founded on consistent principles and sound reasoning. I commend you for staying true to your politics and making the only worthy reply anyone should ever post in response to that particular poster.

Thank you.
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Old 12th June 2018, 12:32 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
There are some legitimate problems with allowing the homeless to vote, but I agree that dependence on society should not be one. In federal elections it's not much of an issue, but in local and House of Representatives elections how do you determine which district the person belongs to? Last known address? The current place they are camping?

As a practical matter it's not a significant issue; I assume very very few homeless vote. ...
Also, very few homeless move from jurisduction to jurisdiction. They are not that mobile and often depend on the official and inofficial local networks they already have found for themselves. Have them register with social workers, for example, to establish which jurisdiction's resources they actually use, and make that their voting district. (I understand that gerrymandering and other ******** tradition may cut up organic communities such that it may become difficult to assign a homeless person to a district, but that is a problem in itself and not a problem that should be visited upon the weakest)
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Old 12th June 2018, 02:47 PM   #88
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If Ohio could do it, so can other states. Did any? Perhaps one from the other side of the aisle?
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Old 12th June 2018, 02:55 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
One party authoratrian rule is fine if it's the right party
The Party of Lincoln has become the Party of One Party Dictatorship.
Seriously, you think purging voters from the voting rolls after they have failed to vote in 3 consecutive federal elections and failed to respond to a mailer that just requires them to return a prepaid postage card in the mail is some sort of step to one party dictatorship?

Democrats act like making somebody show ID proving they have the right to vote is a horrific injustice. Removing people from the rolls for failing to vote? It's another Selma! It's almost like there were never crooked politicians who found a way to get the dead to vote.
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Old 12th June 2018, 03:07 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Seriously, you think purging voters from the voting rolls after they have failed to vote in 3 consecutive federal elections and failed to respond to a mailer that just requires them to return a prepaid postage card in the mail is some sort of step to one party dictatorship?

Democrats act like making somebody show ID proving they have the right to vote is a horrific injustice. Removing people from the rolls for failing to vote? It's another Selma! It's almost like there were never crooked politicians who found a way to get the dead to vote.
Question is what do you have to do to get back on the rolls. It's the stories about some officials putting almost impossible barriers of proof to get back on the roles that worry me. And if there is a pattern of Democratic districts being targeted....
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Old 12th June 2018, 03:19 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
If Ohio could do it, so can other states. Did any? Perhaps one from the other side of the aisle?
Georgia, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin.
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Old 12th June 2018, 03:33 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Seriously, you think purging voters from the voting rolls after they have failed to vote in 3 consecutive federal elections and failed to respond to a mailer that just requires them to return a prepaid postage card in the mail is some sort of step to one party dictatorship?

Democrats act like making somebody show ID proving they have the right to vote is a horrific injustice. Removing people from the rolls for failing to vote? It's another Selma! It's almost like there were never crooked politicians who found a way to get the dead to vote.
Whether or not you purge the dead from the rolls, you need a solution for the problems of making sure a) that the person voting is identitcal to the person on the roll and b) that no person votes more than once.

The dead do not attempt to vote, and anyone feigning to be a person who is actually dead already is not identical with the dead person and should fail test a).

So the whole purging cannot seriously be about vote fraud abusing dead but enrolled voters.

Also, the whole process of waiting for an enrolled citizen to not vote for two election cycles and/or failing to respond to a mailing for such and such time creates lots and lots of dead people who are not yet purged because of that process - certainly enough to make dead voting fraud a significant thread if it isn't prevented by other means anyway.
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Old 12th June 2018, 03:37 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Question is what do you have to do to get back on the rolls. It's the stories about some officials putting almost impossible barriers of proof to get back on the roles that worry me. And if there is a pattern of Democratic districts being targeted....
I see what you mean! In Ohio you have to mark two boxes "YES" and fill in your name, address, DOB, & Ohio Drivers License number or last four digits of your SSN. Impossible barriers indeed.
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Old 12th June 2018, 07:11 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Metullus View Post
It might be hard to check those boxes if the mail never gets to you. Are they sending these forms certified mail?
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Old 12th June 2018, 08:34 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
It might be hard to check those boxes if the mail never gets to you. Are they sending these forms certified mail?
dudalb suggested that re-registering to vote involved "almost impossible barriers of proof to get back on the roles". The fact is that in Ohio, at least, the process is hardly onerous. They can do it online. They can get the form at any DMV, courthouse, and, I suspect, public library. They can mail them or hand deliver them; there is no requirement that they be sent by certified mail. They can download the PDF form at home or at any public library. They can fill out and submit the form online at their public library.
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Old 12th June 2018, 09:26 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
Georgia, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin.
And a quick scan shows that Pennsylvania has a Democrat Governor. Which kind of lessens all the partisan griping about how "Repubs want to disenfranchise all them poor little Democrats".
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Old 12th June 2018, 09:41 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
And a quick scan shows that Pennsylvania has a Democrat Governor. Which kind of lessens all the partisan griping about how "Repubs want to disenfranchise all them poor little Democrats".
Not necessarily. In our system of government, the governor is just the executive. The legislature decides what will be done.
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Old 12th June 2018, 10:02 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
In federal elections it's not much of an issue, but in local and House of Representatives elections how do you determine which district the person belongs to? Last known address? The current place they are camping?

The solution to that is easy. Just make sure they are only voting once per election (or once per election cycle) and if you do that it doesn't really matter where they chose to set up camp during any particular election.

And to do that, we need a federal ID system like every single other first world country has. Or consolidate the state ID systems.
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Old 12th June 2018, 10:12 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
The Supreme court should serve as a counter-weight to partisan power grabs, but as it has been thoroughly politicized, it clearly doesn't.

I wouldn't actually mind that... if The Supreme Court wasn't, like you said, politicized and, on top of that, completely illegitimate.

The Republicans refused for 15 months to allow President Obama's rightful turn to fill an empty seat. Something that should definitely be illegal if it was not.

And then 10 days before the Presidential election Comey announced a reopening of an investigation into the Democrat candidate dropping her average poll numbers by 8 points in one day. The largest change there had been in a year. And then 10 days later the election was lost by 3 counties. Not 3 states. But 3 counties. There are 3 counties, 2 in Florida, and 1 in Michigan that if they had went Democrat would have flipped those 2 states.

So now 2 years later we have that illegitimate Supreme Court seat deciding a voter purge case by 5-4.

********
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Old 12th June 2018, 10:12 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Metullus View Post
dudalb suggested that re-registering to vote involved "almost impossible barriers of proof to get back on the roles". The fact is that in Ohio, at least, the process is hardly onerous. They can do it online. They can get the form at any DMV, courthouse, and, I suspect, public library. They can mail them or hand deliver them; there is no requirement that they be sent by certified mail. They can download the PDF form at home or at any public library. They can fill out and submit the form online at their public library.
It is a large barrier to not be notified that you've been purged.

Why should it be the person's responsibility to ensure that they haven't been purged?

Why are Republicans constantly trying to make it harder for citizens to vote?
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Old 12th June 2018, 10:16 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep non drivers shouldn't be allowed to vote. If you can't afford a car your opinion doesn't matter.

To be fair, most states also offer a non-driving ID, usually called a State ID, that is much cheaper than a Driver's License. It's almost always basically the cost of printing it, around $10 to $20 max. And if we finally get a consolidated federal version that cost could be subsidized for poor people.
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Old 12th June 2018, 10:59 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
I wouldn't actually mind that... if The Supreme Court wasn't, like you said, politicized and, on top of that, completely illegitimate.

The Republicans refused for 15 months to allow President Obama's rightful turn to fill an empty seat. Something that should definitely be illegal if it was not.

And then 10 days before the Presidential election Comey announced a reopening of an investigation into the Democrat candidate dropping her average poll numbers by 8 points in one day. The largest change there had been in a year. And then 10 days later the election was lost by 3 counties. Not 3 states. But 3 counties. There are 3 counties, 2 in Florida, and 1 in Michigan that if they had went Democrat would have flipped those 2 states.

So now 2 years later we have that illegitimate Supreme Court seat deciding a voter purge case by 5-4.

********
None of those things seem to intrinsically create illegitimacy.
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Old 13th June 2018, 12:32 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Whether or not you purge the dead from the rolls, you need a solution for the problems of making sure a) that the person voting is identitcal to the person on the roll and b) that no person votes more than once.
Yes, this is indeed the key. However, when it comes to a), the Democrats are arguing that any form of ID is an undue burden. Apparently lots of people do not have any form of ID, which amazes me. And of course if you do not have a), you don't have any way of guaranteeing b).
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Old 13th June 2018, 12:36 AM   #104
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I haven't seen any evidence that "b" is happening in any significant way. VoterID laws are a solution looking to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
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Old 13th June 2018, 01:20 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Are you prepared to do something about it other then just moan and cry about it?
I would be if it happened in my country.
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Old 13th June 2018, 01:24 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Yes, this is indeed the key. However, when it comes to a), the Democrats are arguing that any form of ID is an undue burden. Apparently lots of people do not have any form of ID, which amazes me. And of course if you do not have a), you don't have any way of guaranteeing b).
As for a) it wouldn't be a problem if a valid ID was as easy to obtain for any citizen in any part of the country. It isn't, and that's the problem with a).

Of course, you know this and deliberately leave it out of your argument.
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:07 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Yes, this is indeed the key. However, when it comes to a), the Democrats are arguing that any form of ID is an undue burden. Apparently lots of people do not have any form of ID, which amazes me. And of course if you do not have a), you don't have any way of guaranteeing b).
Fully agreed. Proper identification is key. Should be a national requirement and federally funded.
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:09 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
To be fair, most states also offer a non-driving ID, usually called a State ID, that is much cheaper than a Driver's License. It's almost always basically the cost of printing it, around $10 to $20 max. And if we finally get a consolidated federal version that cost could be subsidized for poor people.
And of course they don't necessarily make those easy to get, limited hours for people mostly working multiple jobs is a wonderful hurdle to being able to vote.

For example states have offered free ID's so that there isn't a poll tax on their requirement of ID's to vote. BUt they don't exactly need to make them easily available to people who don't drive. Limited times and locations of these are wonderful things.

After all the goal of most of these is to block poor people from voting, it wouldn't make sense to make it too easy for them to get the ID they need to vote now would it?
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:10 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Yes, this is indeed the key. However, when it comes to a), the Democrats are arguing that any form of ID is an undue burden. Apparently lots of people do not have any form of ID, which amazes me. And of course if you do not have a), you don't have any way of guaranteeing b).
And of course we can just assume B with no actual evidence, because evidence is for suckers and liberals.
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:13 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Fully agreed. Proper identification is key. Should be a national requirement and federally funded.
We can have people like poll workers getting out into the community to get people registered to vote and make sure they have ID. That will clearly go over well with the republicans I am sure.

It is almost as if they pick things that are easy for the middle class and such but not so easy for the poor intentionally to make it seem like the burden of their requirements isn't a big deal.
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:30 AM   #111
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National ID won't happen this century.
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:47 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
National ID won't happen this century.
Is that an indictment or gloating?

81.5 years left to go in this century; a fair time in which to realize some progress.
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:57 AM   #113
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We know that there is very little voter fraud in the USA - or at least very little detectable fraud so there really isn't a need to worry too much about how accurate the voter lists are. It's good policy to try and keep them up to date but considering it will all computerised now there's no great savings to be made by expending a lot of resources on the lists.

What's the cost of implementing the various schemes?
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Old 13th June 2018, 04:12 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
We know that there is very little voter fraud in the USA - or at least very little detectable fraud so there really isn't a need to worry too much about how accurate the voter lists are. It's good policy to try and keep them up to date but considering it will all computerised now there's no great savings to be made by expending a lot of resources on the lists.

What's the cost of implementing the various schemes?
Mostly disenfranchising those you want to disenfranchise.
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Old 13th June 2018, 06:46 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
And why is it that in some jurisdictions an NRA card is acceptable but a student ID card is not?
That is not the case anywhere.

In some places, a CCW permit (not an NRA card) is acceptable but a student ID is not. The reason is quite straightforward, though: a CCW permit is a state-issued identification which establishes residency, a student ID does not.
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Old 13th June 2018, 06:47 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
We know that there is very little voter fraud in the USA - or at least very little detectable fraud so there really isn't a need to worry too much about how accurate the voter lists are.
That doesn't follow. The system is very poor at detecting voter fraud, so the fact that little is detected is insufficient to conclude that there is little of it.
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Old 13th June 2018, 06:55 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That doesn't follow. The system is very poor at detecting voter fraud, so the fact that little is detected is insufficient to conclude that there is little of it.
Additional efforts to detect extensive voter fraud have also failed.
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Old 13th June 2018, 06:57 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Additional efforts to detect extensive voter fraud have also failed.
After-the-fact efforts are doomed to failure. They have to be baked into the system to work well, and they aren't.
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Old 13th June 2018, 06:57 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That doesn't follow. The system is very poor at detecting voter fraud, so the fact that little is detected is insufficient to conclude that there is little of it.
How do you know the system is poor?
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Old 13th June 2018, 07:00 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
After-the-fact efforts are doomed to failure. They have to be baked into the system to work well, and they aren't.
I don't necessarily agree with this but assuming it is true....

Then these are proposed rules that knowingly hurt people to fix a problem the lawmaker had no knowledge of it exists. The logical step is to measure the problem.
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