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Old 11th June 2018, 03:25 PM   #1
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"Why can't we hate men?"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.b66687601fc3

Quote:
It’s not that Eric Schneiderman (the now-former New York attorney general accused of abuse by multiple women) pushed me over the edge. My edge has been crossed for a long time, before President Trump, before Harvey Weinstein, before “mansplaining” and “incels.” Before live-streaming sexual assaults and red pill men’s groups and rape camps as a tool of war and the deadening banality of male prerogative.

Seen in this indisputably true context, it seems logical to hate men. I can’t lie, I’ve always had a soft spot for the radical feminist smackdown, for naming the problem in no uncertain terms. I’ve rankled at the “but we don’t hate men” protestations of generations of would-be feminists and found the “men are not the problem, this system is” obfuscation too precious by half.
I'm so glad that the patriarchy allows for such publications to exist in mainstream papers, written by an academic, no less!

This article would fit well on r/menkampf

Question to the feminists on this forum: Is the author above one of the "real feminists" I should be working along side if I want to address the issue of gender inequality?
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Old 11th June 2018, 03:55 PM   #2
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If you consider that statement to be too broad to make sense, then why would you do the same thing?
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Old 11th June 2018, 04:04 PM   #3
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Bigots of all kinds use similar arguments against their targets. This stupid twat is no different.
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Old 11th June 2018, 04:43 PM   #4
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This chick has anger issues
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Old 11th June 2018, 04:48 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
If you consider that statement to be too broad to make sense, then why would you do the same thing?
Luckily, he didn’t!
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Old 11th June 2018, 07:22 PM   #6
pharphis
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
If you consider that statement to be too broad to make sense, then why would you do the same thing?
Not sure what you mean
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Old 11th June 2018, 09:23 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
Not sure what you mean
The implication is that you're painting feminists with too broad a brush.

But that isn't what you're actually doing. You're asking feminists how broad a brush they want you to paint with. It's entirely up to them.
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Old 12th June 2018, 12:34 AM   #8
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What does the rest of the article say? It's behind a paywall.

In the lines presented, I think the author makes a case for hatred of men being rational to an extent. It's still bad, but you can see where someone who hates men for what they do to women is coming from.
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Old 12th June 2018, 12:48 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
What does the rest of the article say? It's behind a paywall.

In the lines presented, I think the author makes a case for hatred of men being rational to an extent. It's still bad, but you can see where someone who hates men for what they do to women is coming from.
I can't

But then I'm a bloke so who cares
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Old 12th June 2018, 01:08 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
What does the rest of the article say? It's behind a paywall.
She walks it back a bit by saying criticism of the position is valid, and that focusing on institutional rather than individual power is better. Then she lists global inequalityies in leadership positions, pay, unpaid labor, violence, etc. She also reflects on #MeToo's shortcomings and responds to some criticisms of #MeToo.

Her ending call to action is this:

Quote:
So men, if you really are #WithUs and would like us to not hate you for all the millennia of woe you have produced and benefited from, start with this: Lean out so we can actually just stand up without being beaten down. Pledge to vote for feminist women only. Don’t run for office. Don’t be in charge of anything. Step away from the power. We got this. And please know that your crocodile tears won’t be wiped away by us anymore. We have every right to hate you. You have done us wrong. #BecausePatriarchy. It is long past time to play hard for Team Feminism. And win.
The cheap response to this is that this is a White woman writing. She should be quiet and leave leadership positions open for People of Color. The only people in power should be disabled, Black, queer, fat, trans, Non-Binary, etc.

A response article:

Quote:
Still, the core question warrants a dispassionate, substantive answer.

“Is it really so illogical to hate men?”

Yes, it is.

It is always illogical to hate an entire group of people for behavior perpetrated by a subset of its members and actively opposed or renounced by literally millions of them. It is every bit as easy, and more just, to assign collective rhetorical blame to groups that deserve it, like “murderers” or “rapists” or “domestic abusers” or “sexists.”

Indulging in collective hate validates hatred itself and the flawed premise of group rather than individual responsibility. It puts all groups at greater risk of suffering hatred, for there are bad individuals in any group and folks ready to hate every group. What’s more, any hate tends to harm the individual who harbors it.

Finally, group hate tends to make those who harbor it less able to see clearly, less likely to acknowledge nuance, and less able to improve the world, even as their wrongheaded ideas risk leading others into destructive errors.

For example, some of Walters’s less thoughtful readers might draw the conclusion that bad behavior by men damages women exclusively, and erroneously conclude that half the population—maybe their own half—has no strictly selfish interest in tackling the sundry forms violence that are mostly caused by men. But (for instance) men are wildly overrepresented among both homicide perpetrators and homicide victims—according to the UN, 78 percent of homicide victims are male. Even the most self-interested man has a stake in perceiving, studying, and trying to remedy most ills men disproportionately inflict.

Little wonder so many have tried so mightily to do so.

Less-thoughtful readers might mistakenly draw the conclusion, as well, that women need play no part in remedying the problem that Walters calls toxic masculinity. But insofar as socialization helps create some gendered ills, insofar as women participate in the socialization of infant and adolescent boys, and insofar as some of those women as surely as some men socialize them into “toxic” patterns of behavior, advising men, “don’t be in charge of anything” is inadequate.

Indeed, in the realm of fatherhood, where too much abdication of responsibility is a catastrophic societal problem, it would be deeply counterproductive. (If there’s a particular man out there really excelling at heading a cancer research lab or a project on carbon capture, perhaps he ought to stay on the job, too?) The overwhelming majority of feminists want equality, not male abdication of power and responsibility. In the name of feminism, Walters advocates for a future that few women want within a framework that mistakenly treats their project as zero sum.

There is much more to be said about the folly of hatred, and none of it best said by me. Martin Luther King Jr. believed that “darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that,” and that “hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.”
Linky.
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Old 12th June 2018, 01:09 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
What does the rest of the article say? It's behind a paywall.

In the lines presented, I think the author makes a case for hatred of men being rational to an extent. It's still bad, but you can see where someone who hates men for what they do to women is coming from.
It sort of gets more reasonable in the middle, and then less so toward the end.
The last two paragraphs sum up the thrust of the piece:
Quote:
The world has little place for feminist anger. Women are supposed to support, not condemn, offer succor not dismissal. We’re supposed to feel more empathy for your fear of being called a harasser than we are for the women harassed. We are told he’s with us and #NotHim. But, truly, if he were with us, wouldn’t this all have ended a long time ago? If he really were with us, wouldn’t he reckon that one good way to change structural violence and inequity would be to refuse the power that comes with it?

So men, if you really are #WithUs and would like us to not hate you for all the millennia of woe you have produced and benefited from, start with this: Lean out so we can actually just stand up without being beaten down. Pledge to vote for feminist women only. Don’t run for office. Don’t be in charge of anything. Step away from the power. We got this. And please know that your crocodile tears won’t be wiped away by us anymore. We have every right to hate you. You have done us wrong. #BecausePatriarchy. It is long past time to play hard for Team Feminism. And win.
So if you happen to have been born male, you are collectively responsible for all of the male violence and patriarchy that has been going on for millennia, got it? The only way to atone is to step aside and put feminist women in charge of all the important stuff.
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Old 12th June 2018, 01:12 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
It sort of gets more reasonable in the middle, and then less so toward the end.
The last two paragraphs sum up the thrust of the piece:


So if you happen to have been born male, you are collectively responsible for all of the male violence and patriarchy that has been going on for millennia, got it? The only way to atone is to step aside and put feminist women in charge of all the important stuff.
Seems kind of harsh. Maybe we should discuss how we can assuage her issues while aiming for equality instead of matriarchy?

Do you think the article might be a bit over the top on purpose?
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Old 12th June 2018, 02:00 AM   #13
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I do love that the pic atop the article is the least flattering picture of Harvey Weinstein that I have ever seen, and he is not a handsome man. But there he looks like one of the brothers from The Hills Have Eyes. It's like the OJ cover of Newsweek all over again.

But all I really needed to read was the bio of the writer:

Quote:
Suzanna Danuta Walters, a professor of sociology and director of the Women’s, Gender, and Sexuality Studies Program at Northeastern University, is the editor of the gender studies journal Signs.
Yeah, let me guess the article is not about how hard she struggled against the idea of hating men. I'm going out on a limb here and predicting it's more of a call to (metaphorical of) course arms.

Wow, bingo:

Quote:
I love Michelle Obama as much as the next woman, but when they have gone low for all of human history, maybe it’s time for us to go all Thelma and Louise and Foxy Brown on their collective butts.
It's amusing that her ideals of female empowerment come from movies that were released 27 years ago and 44 (!) years ago.

My take? Basic clickbait journalism.
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Old 12th June 2018, 02:42 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I do love that the pic atop the article is the least flattering picture of Harvey Weinstein that I have ever seen, and he is not a handsome man. But there he looks like one of the brothers from The Hills Have Eyes. It's like the OJ cover of Newsweek all over again.

But all I really needed to read was the bio of the writer:



Yeah, let me guess the article is not about how hard she struggled against the idea of hating men. I'm going out on a limb here and predicting it's more of a call to (metaphorical of) course arms.

Wow, bingo:



It's amusing that her ideals of female empowerment come from movies that were released 27 years ago and 44 (!) years ago.

My take? Basic clickbait journalism.
It's even more primitive, in my view, than the thinking of 27 or 44 years ago. Imagine that you lived in the Middle Ages under the rule of a tyrant king. You wish to escape from his rule, but how? Well the simplest idea you could possibly have is to imagine that you are now the king, and fantasise about all the things you would do if ever that came to pass. But apart from the change of person in power, everything else remains exactly the same.

You have no way to envisage a different society. You've never seen or experienced one. That's hard to imagine - no tyrant king at all. Governments chosen by ballot of the entire population. So faced with oppression, the uninformed mind at first responds by imagining not the abolition of oppression, but vengeful exercise of tyrannical powers by the formerly oppressed part of the population.

"Ah, I know what I would do to King Eric Bloodaxe if I was on his throne, and he was here in my cottage. No more forelock-tugging obsequiousness from me! I'd know how to make him suffer!"

But this primitive mindset provides no solution to social problems. It has been tested in practice only too often, invariably with lamentable results.
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Old 12th June 2018, 02:45 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
It's even more primitive, in my view, than the thinking of 27 or 44 years ago. Imagine that you lived in the Middle Ages under the rule of a tyrant king. You wish to escape from his rule, but how? Well the simplest idea you could possibly have is to imagine that you are now the king, and fantasise about all the things you would do if ever that came to pass. But apart from the change of person in power, everything else remains exactly the same.

You have no way to envisage a different society. You've never seen or experienced one. That's hard to imagine - no tyrant king at all. Governments chosen by ballot of the entire population. So faced with oppression, the uninformed mind at first responds by imagining not the abolition of oppression, but vengeful exercise of tyrannical powers by the formerly oppressed part of the population.

"Ah, I know what I would do to King Eric Bloodaxe if I was on his throne, and he was here in my cottage. No more forelock-tugging obsequiousness from me! I'd know how to make him suffer!"

But this primitive mindset provides no solution to social problems. It has been tested in practice only too often, invariably with lamentable results.
I tend to think this is sort of the point. Feminists are scaring men by claiming that they want what men has at the expense of men. Does that not tell you something about the situation we're in?
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Old 12th June 2018, 02:59 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I tend to think this is sort of the point. Feminists are scaring men by claiming that they want what men has at the expense of men. Does that not tell you something about the situation we're in?
So you don't think that it's intended to be taken seriously? The author doesn't believe what she says? I hope you're right.
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Old 12th June 2018, 03:38 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
Her ending call to action is this:
The logical conclusion of Privilege Theory is that if you're a dude you'd be insane to go along with any that.
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Old 12th June 2018, 03:53 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I tend to think this is sort of the point. Feminists are scaring men by claiming that they want what men has at the expense of men. Does that not tell you something about the situation we're in?
No. Feminists are scaring men by claiming they want what they imagine men have at the expense of men.
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Old 12th June 2018, 03:57 AM   #19
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Courtesy of TedX


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoUZ929qoLk


And a response by a non-Cis White Male...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZwkiI7VePo
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Old 12th June 2018, 04:27 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
So you don't think that it's intended to be taken seriously? The author doesn't believe what she says? I hope you're right.
I think it was cathartic for the author and many of the intended readers. I don't think it's a statement of intent.
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Old 12th June 2018, 04:29 AM   #21
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Old 12th June 2018, 05:12 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
This stupid twat
Please tell me you meant to write "twit".
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Old 12th June 2018, 05:32 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I think it was cathartic for the author and many of the intended readers. I don't think it's a statement of intent.
She doesn't intend for men to cede power and privilege, and let women run things? You don't think she intends for that concession to be the price of her giving up her hatred of men?

Also, catharsis has downsides, too.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl...-vices-venting
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Old 12th June 2018, 06:35 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post

Her ending call to action is this:

Quote:
So men, if you really are #WithUs and would like us to not hate you for all the millennia of woe you have produced and benefited from, start with this: Lean out so we can actually just stand up without being beaten down. Pledge to vote for feminist women only. Don’t run for office. Don’t be in charge of anything. Step away from the power. We got this. And please know that your crocodile tears won’t be wiped away by us anymore. We have every right to hate you. You have done us wrong. #BecausePatriarchy.
The time has come for men who truly believe in women's rights to step away from their roles in leadership, government, and public policy. Men who aren't #WithUs may feel free to stay on and do their thing #BecausePatriarchy.

What could possibly go wrong?
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Old 12th June 2018, 06:38 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
What does the rest of the article say? It's behind a paywall.

In the lines presented, I think the author makes a case for hatred of men being rational to an extent. It's still bad, but you can see where someone who hates men for what they do to women is coming from.
So it’s rational to hate all members of a group due to the actions of a few? (Sounds like a terrible idea - just think for a moment if it was a group other than white men being indicted).
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Old 12th June 2018, 06:43 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
So it’s rational to hate all members of a group due to the actions of a few? (Sounds like a terrible idea - just think for a moment if it was a group other than white men being indicted).
If you believe that men as a group have the power in society and are working to keep it I'd say it could be rational to an extent. As much as the emotion is ever rational.
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Old 12th June 2018, 06:53 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
If you believe that men as a group have the power in society and are working to keep it I'd say it could be rational to an extent. As much as the emotion is ever rational.
That is... blinkered and focused at the 1%. Do garbagemen, sanitation workers, and all other blue collar workers (who vastly outnumber those “in charge” of society) deserve hate?
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Old 12th June 2018, 06:54 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
That is... blinkered and focused at the 1%. Do garbagemen, sanitation workers, and all other blue collar workers (who vastly outnumber those “in charge” of society) deserve hate?
I don't think they do. Not for this anyway. But I'm not a woman, so I can't really answer for one.

I believe and certainly hope that the number of women who genuinely hate men is fairly small. I am well aware however, that there exist many problems that need to be solved before we acheive equality between the sexes, and that there are many men who would work against any such solutions.
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"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

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Old 12th June 2018, 07:16 AM   #29
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
Quote:
all the millennia of woe you have produced
There's a very common rhetorical trick here that should be recognized for its dishonesty. No human has ever lived for millennia. There is no "you" to whom she can actually address this accusation.

Deliberately confusing this point is a trademark of identity politics, and it is toxic.
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Old 12th June 2018, 07:50 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.b66687601fc3



I'm so glad that the patriarchy allows for such publications to exist in mainstream papers, written by an academic, no less!

This article would fit well on r/menkampf

Question to the feminists on this forum: Is the author above one of the "real feminists" I should be working along side if I want to address the issue of gender inequality?
No you should not work alongside her. She’s part of the problem, not the solution
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Old 12th June 2018, 07:54 AM   #31
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Carbon-based lifeforms are the worst, they are responsible for all the world's ills and should be removed from all positions of power. You can't deny it: every sin ever committed, every evil ever perpetrated, every horrible act ever executed were all by carbon-based lifeforms.
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Old 12th June 2018, 08:02 AM   #32
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Carbon-based lifeforms are the worst, they are responsible for all the world's ills and should be removed from all positions of power. You can't deny it: every sin ever committed, every evil ever perpetrated, every horrible act ever executed were all by carbon-based lifeforms.
#NotAllCarbonBasedLifeforms
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Old 12th June 2018, 08:19 AM   #33
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
But all I really needed to read was the bio of the writer:
When it comes to most high offices, I usually vote Democrat. However, for any education related offices (here in Michigan we vote for regents of state universities) I always vote Republican, on the theory that Republicans are less likely to fund departments such as hers.
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Old 12th June 2018, 08:33 AM   #34
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It's still OK to hate all investment bankers though, right?
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Old 12th June 2018, 08:36 AM   #35
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
When it comes to most high offices, I usually vote Democrat. However, for any education related offices (here in Michigan we vote for regents of state universities) I always vote Republican, on the theory that Republicans are less likely to fund departments such as hers.
Well at least you can be happy with what your fellow Michigander Devos has one with the DoE.
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Old 12th June 2018, 08:36 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
It's still OK to hate all investment bankers though, right?
Its legal, at least in the USA, to hate whomever you want. Whether its OK or not is a question of morality.
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Old 12th June 2018, 08:55 AM   #37
Craig B
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Its legal, at least in the USA, to hate whomever you want. Whether its OK or not is a question of morality.
These is a distinction which is probably worth stating explicitly. Merchant banking is an activity which came into being in a certain historical period. There was a time - the bulk of humanity's time on earth in fact - before such persons as merchant bankers existed. Thus it is not irrational, though it may or may not be practical in a complex society, to envisage the disappearance of that profession. Slave owning has disappeared from the recognised professional scene, and is now everywhere regarded as an abuse and a crime.

It is not insane to consider merchant banking to belong to that sort of category, although that may not be a correct understanding, as I have noted.

But men, or women, are part of the human species. They are not a possibly optional extra that might be dispensed with, like chimney sweeps in a street of all-electric houses.

If adverse social conditions have produced the oppression of one gender by another, the solution must be to remove these conditions, and therewith the oppression. The alternatives are

- That the oppression should continue, but with changes to the identity of the perps and victims, or
- that one of the gender groups, which has participated in reproduction in our lineage literally for hundreds of millions of years, should be eliminated.

These options look unattractive or even unfeasible, from my viewpoint.
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Old 12th June 2018, 08:59 AM   #38
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
...one of the gender groups, which has participated in reproduction in our lineage literally for hundreds of millions of years, should be eliminated.
This solution seems feasible, so long as the sperm banks remain solvent.
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Old 12th June 2018, 09:00 AM   #39
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
It's still OK to hate all investment bankers though, right?
a good friend of mine is an investment banker who has literally spent his whole career putting together deals to build, expand or equip children's hospitals.

so......
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Old 12th June 2018, 09:03 AM   #40
Craig B
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
This solution seems feasible, so long as the sperm banks remain solvent.
Merchant bankers can retrain as merchant sperm bankers. Good solution.
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