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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:12 AM   #321
paximperium
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
It has been asked countless times for me to put up or shut up and the E in JREF stands for education.....you know of course that I have no formal education in physics - non what so ever [ not even completed highschool]. You know of course that that can actually be a blessing because I am not stuck in the dogma and belief system that is obviously so precious to some as displayed in this thread.
Sure it is. Keep telling yourself that. Someone without even a basic foundation of knowledge is claiming that the knowledge he knows nothing about is flawed.

Quote:
so why not explore the issue in a professional way?
because you can't maybe... excuse internet anonymity maybe....
The irony of this post is not lost to anyone.

You are not exploring, you are asserting and when ask repeatedly to defend said claim, you run away and spew garbage.
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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:14 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by Mashuna View Post
I guess it could be a blessing. If you want to progress any further with your ideas though, it's going to be a large hinderance.
of course if I wish to take on the cape of a qualified person but I have no intention of doing that.
It's not going to be my theory in the end never was goiing to be.....as it belongs to who ever offers appropriate input into it...

I have a very good idea of how long it would take just to learn the math needed to get even close to publishing. The various approaches and counter approaches and also the incredible amount of rigourous testing that would be needed....a huge undertaking.

nope not a chance, not from me any way, too busy doing other stuff.

I just wished to show that there is reason to doubt that the proof that photon actually travells from point a. point b. is possibly misapplied.

and if that generates enough suspicion/curiocity the rest is history.
I don't think I would get an award for just showing or enquiring about ambiguity now would I?

Last edited by ozziemate; 3rd October 2008 at 05:18 AM.
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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:18 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by paximperium View Post
Sure it is. Keep telling yourself that. Someone without even a basic foundation of knowledge is claiming that the knowledge he knows nothing about is flawed.


The irony of this post is not lost to anyone.

You are not exploring, you are asserting and when ask repeatedly to defend said claim, you run away and spew garbage.
I am asserting exactly what?
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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:22 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by paximperium View Post
Sure it is. Keep telling yourself that. Someone without even a basic foundation of knowledge is claiming that the knowledge he knows nothing about is flawed.


The irony of this post is not lost to anyone.

You are not exploring, you are asserting and when ask repeatedly to defend said claim, you run away and spew garbage.
Science has not got the answers it needs yet.
And probably no ability to find them using the current light model.
The issue of universal constants is hanging there like a dead cat on a rope.
stinking the place up.... and that claim stands up to testing with out a problemo...

and you say that science isn't flawed....ha...you are kidding me!

with all due respect of course....

Last edited by ozziemate; 3rd October 2008 at 05:25 AM.
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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:25 AM   #325
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Ozzie, you really have education all wrong. It doesn't close you mind off. It opens your eyes.


The heroes of science are the ones that came created new paradigms. The beauty of their ideas is that they stand up to scientific rigor. That's how we can say with confidence that they were right. Also, I can't think of a single great scientist that had no formal education in what was known before his/her time.
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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:29 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
of course if I wish to take on the cape of a qualified person but I have no intention of doing that.
It's not going to be my theory in the end never was goiing to be.....as it belongs to who ever offers appropriate input into it...

I have a very good idea of how long it would take just to learn the math needed to get even close to publishing. The various approaches and counter approaches and also the incredible amount of rigourous testing that would be needed....a huge undertaking.

nope not a chance, not from me any way, too busy doing other stuff.

I just wished to show that there is reason to doubt that the proof that photon actually travells from point a. point b. is possibly misapplied.

and if that generates enough suspicion/curiocity the rest is history.
I don't think I would get an award for just showing or enquiring about ambiguity now would I?
Ozziemate, meet Mr Francis Gatti. Like you, he has no qualifications in maths, physics, or science in general, but he's sure his "research" will make the "physics of the 3rd millenary" happen, should closed-minded skeptics finally decide to consider his "data" instead of wasting their time with conventional physics ...
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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:31 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by PingOfPong View Post
Ozzie, you really have education all wrong. It doesn't close you mind off. It opens your eyes.


The heroes of science are the ones that came created new paradigms. The beauty of their ideas is that they stand up to scientific rigor. That's how we can say with confidence that they were right. Also, I can't think of a single great scientist that had no formal education in what was known before his/her time.
I agree I really do but necessity was and currently is what it is...
one famous person I can think of straight way was:
Leonardo da Vinci,
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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:32 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
Science has not got the answers it needs yet.
And probably no ability to find them using the current light model.
How can you make this statement with your lack of knowledge on the matter?

Quote:
The issue of universal constants is hanging there like a dead cat on a rope.
stinking the place up.... and that claim stands up to testing with out a problemo...
Why?

Quote:
and you say that science isn't flawed....ha...you are kidding me!

with all due respect of course....
Who has said that science isn't flawed? Ooops, you did, that's your ignorance speaking again.
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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:33 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Flo View Post
Ozziemate, meet Mr Francis Gatti. Like you, he has no qualifications in maths, physics, or science in general, but he's sure his "research" will make the "physics of the 3rd millenary" happen, should closed-minded skeptics finally decide to consider his "data" instead of wasting their time with conventional physics ...
ha...maybe he should attend to his web design instead.

another example of poor taste
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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:35 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
ha...maybe he should attend to his web design instead.

another example of poor taste

His web design is every bit as good as your scientific qualifications
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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:35 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by paximperium View Post
How can you make this statement with your lack of knowledge on the matter?


Why?


Who has said that science isn't flawed? Ooops, you did, that's your ignorance speaking again.
you did by stating what you now declare is obvious.
show me the logic of the constants and I will gladly recant.
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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:37 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Flo View Post
His web design is every bit as good as your scientific qualifications
well given I have none his is better at least he got a design up [if one could use the word design.....
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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:38 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
you did by stating what you now declare is obvious.
I have no idea what you're talking about. Please rephrase in english.
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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:40 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by paximperium View Post
I have no idea what you're talking about. Please rephrase in english.
actually paxi...I am getting to like you.....
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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:41 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
sorry but you must have not read the post fully:

I stated:

So how do we prove that a photon travels?
or that a travelling photon even exists, when it could simply be an effect within and on the surface of the mass used to measure it or detect it?

see in bold the bit you seem to have missed.
I don't know why I do this, because reading the thread, I see you are clearly not interested, but:

1) We detect an effect from the mass that intercepts the light.

2) This effect coincides precisely with the emitting of light energy from another place (allowing for the speed of light).

3) Thus, something must be travelling between the emitter and the detector.

We call this something "photons".

Every part of this message was brought to you by photons travelling from an emitter to a detector.

Hans
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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:42 AM   #336
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Quote:
I agree I really do but necessity was and currently is what it is...
one famous person I can think of straight way was:
Leonardo da Vinci,

Ahh, but Da Dinci went away as a child to study under Verochio where he had access to all the great minds of the Medici court. Da Vinci didn't go off into isolation and become a great thinker without any instruction.
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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:43 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
actually paxi...I am getting to like you.....
Irrelevant to your original statement.
What were you claiming I said and what were you demanding?
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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:47 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by paximperium View Post
Irrelevant to your original statement.
What were you claiming I said and what were you demanding?
when cooking use cast iron pots or at least stainles, aluminium and teflon coated pots and pans have been reported to affect short term memory of persons exposed to the dust and vapour.

did you know that teflon when over heated actually exudes a poisonous vapour...unbelievable....!!! and they sell the stuff in the billions of units per year
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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:48 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
when cooking use cast iron pots or at least stainles, aluminium and teflon coated pots and pans have been reported to affect short term memory of persons exposed to the dust and vapour.

did you know that teflon when over heated actually exudes a poisonous vapour...unbelievable....!!! and they sell the stuff in the billions of units per year
Another red herring and dodge. As expected from a coward when backed into a corner.
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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:48 AM   #340
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Ozzie, thank you , I will try to be patient but please pack a carton of salt with you.

Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
To get my informal ideas across you would have to be open to the following issues:
Open does not mean agree, we can't agree on anything at the JREF without having to define the term 'agree'.
Quote:
1] That distance is an illusion generated by the presense of mass/ matter.
Hmmm, now that for openers might be an issue. here is what my mama taught me. Expand your ideas , develop them ,see what they agree with and disagree with. try to find evidence to back your argument. Do not assume you are right. Except in debate clubs. Most importantly write everything down and try to make it clear.

I will say this, why would it matter? The universe behaves as though there is distance between objects. It doesn't matter if it is dead particles or the Mind of God, it looks as though it has distance.

We can not look beyond the stage and curtain, we got what we got.
The universe acts as though there are discrete objects that are separated by distance, it doesn't matter why, and the models explain the what.
Quote:
2] To draw the distinction between relative zero and absolute zero.
Well this is where working by yourself doesn't help. You know what you think these terms mean, but communication requires consensual idiomatic symbols that parties clarify. By avoiding the traditional us and terminology of science, you have made communicating your ideas to other very hard.

there is no absolute frame of reference, all frames of reference having meaning through their interconnectedness with other frames of reference.

there are no absolutes.
Quote:
3] accept that absoute nothing ness is the opposite pole of something ness which grants you a governed self justifying "singularity". [ which this universe is ] [ yes, your lingo means that the term governed singularity is a contradiction.
Again this has private self referential meaning to you , but it is hard to understand what you mean.

there is no absolute anything in the universe. that is why I love QM, the universe refuses to act the way I expect it to. there is no place where nothing resides in the universe.
Quote:
4] Be prepared to learn new words and definitions.
be prepared to understand that there are hundreds of years of clarification and distinction in the tool box. You can not communicate if you insist on the private derivation of words. That is why people study and read, to learn to communicate.
Quote:

5] Be prepared to find out just how ingrained this photon model is in your mind set and how difficult it is to change that...in other words expect some pain in the process as I had to accept some pain.
Be prepared to explain the chocolate in the microwave, you should start by throwing out all your preconceived notions as well, the blank slate as it were.

How do explain the chocolate in the microwave?

Pain is a personalization of a process of reconciliation to the universe. it is unneeded if the egoic involvement is set aside.
Quote:
6] take absolutely nothing, any law of physics, for granted.
Again you are preaching to the choir, most of us here already hold that belief. Did you know that?
Do you know why the models work the way they do?
Quote:
7] to dump notions of linea time when discusing big bang or other exnihilo concepts.
Some education might help you here, the BBE (big bang event) is not ex nihilio it is ex occultum, we can not see beyond the universe. We can not know what is beyond or before it. We are closed in.

There are questions which can not be answered.

Now in kindness to you, I will say that this is a common misconception about the BBE.
Quote:
8] to look for light effect data that would contradict the hypothesis when understood.
Becasue the pre-existiing data even though I believe acquired with incorrect interpreatation will actuall provide part of the evidencial support needed for the hypotheis to be accepted.
Again that is the nature of science, but you should learn how the framework works, it makes it easier to communicate.
Quote:

9] learn to work out how a univesre goes from zero dimension to two and then to three and four dimensions.
Some things come as a package, like the universe. It has what it has.
Quote:


My physics is self developed in isolation from mainstream, due to many reasons but in the main it is to avoid the mind set that closes of possibility.
That is a severe mistake. how can you communicate when you won't learn what is already there and why it is there. How do you know what you think you know, and how can you express it is isolation.

Communication is two hands washing each other, one hand is lonely.
Quote:
My actual forte is philosophy and even that has developed away from mainstream.

With a little translation effort the ideas could make sense to you but that woud take a little patience and certainly an ability to see value in what you are doing.
You assume you know what you know, but until you can communicate it clearly you really don't know what you think you know.

Or as my mama put it bluntly dear "If you can't write clearly, you can't think clearly."
Quote:

At the end of the period of understanding you would then be able to make a value judgement as to worth.
two way street, you want others to do your work for you, it is not as helpful to demand that we learn your private meaning.
Quote:
There is one key element missing for the hypotheiss and I guess in some ways this is what I am fishing for.
See that is what doing this by yourself has done for you. You need to learn the language mate. You will then have more concepts than you will ever have in isolation. A priori is not a good method.
Quote:

Reputation means nothng to me nor does ego nor does Randis millions as the net result of success goes way beyond anything you probably could imagine.
If your ego doesn't matter then why insist on isolation. Why not take the time to read up on the people I listed, I left out a bunch too. But Feynman, Bohr, Pauli, Heisenberg are good places to start.

I challenge you, you are protecting your ego.
Quote:
And to be frank I personally don't need it for my own benfit as I have already got the answer but not the detail.
how do you know you have the answer, you think you have the answer, but you are isolated, so you deny your interconnected nature, to what end?
Quote:

It is in the detail and the ability to explain the processes in your language that you need, for you to be able to understand the solution.
I do not carry your burden, stop trying to make us pick it up.
Quote:


Again it is not something I need but I can be certain it is something you need if you want to travel the stars or get past the obstacle that a multiple time dimesional universe inflicts.
Currently it is possible to build a worm hole or better still a 2 dimensional gate and certainly to enter hyper spacial dimensions.
But the down side is that it also enables you to vapourise a planet sized object in less than a blink of the eye.
that is what you think you know, but that does not mean you actually do. how do you know what you think?
Learn the language of science, then you will know what you think.

isolation is bad.
Quote:

So yes it is difficult to know how to find my missing piece to the puzzle with out revealing too much detail along the way.
I say this to you gently and with great sincerity.

that is very unhealthy, it is not good for you, that way lies madness. You need to be part of the universe and share with other people.
Quote:
The information woud develop into public property so and award granted for a successful hypothesis / theory is not available.
this is the cart before the horse, this is the chicken before it is hatched. Edison said it is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration.
Quote:
why do it in this forum JERF because it is the most hostile, and intolerant to new ideas. And if it can be done here then it can be done any where.

Is it likely to happen?
Maybe you are seeing your own intolerance and egoic attachment by dealing with other. No person is an island, you need to share. Your isolation and inward looking are unhealthy and not good for you.



You need the language, you can't do it by yourself. start with a history of science, then QM and modern physics. Your isolation is very bad for you, in terms of being able to learn what you want and your health.

Get out, take a walk, love people, puppies and others. be a part of something.
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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:49 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
well given I have none his is better at least he got a design up [if one could use the word design.....
You should contact him, you'd get together like a house on fire. You both lack any kind of scientific qualifications, but nevertheless pretend you can tell scientists what they should do and how they should do it. Inbetween complaints about the science establishment and skeptiks' closed minds, you might give him some tips about web design, and he'll teach you everything about making forum threads last for years ...

Last edited by Flo; 3rd October 2008 at 05:52 AM.
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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:49 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by PingOfPong View Post
Ahh, but Da Dinci went away as a child to study under Verochio where he had access to all the great minds of the Medici court. Da Vinci didn't go off into isolation and become a great thinker without any instruction.
I stand corrected however given the level of education available to him his ideas apear to be way beyond.

It's a bit like leaving primary school and inventing the atomic bomb by comparison IMO
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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:52 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by Flo View Post
You should contact him, you'd get together like a house on fire. You both lack any kind of scientific qualifications, but nevertheless pretend you can tell scientists what they should do and how they should do it. Inbetween complaints about the science establishment and skeptiks' closed minds, you might give him some tips about web design, and he'll teach you everything about making forum threads last for years ...
well if you have a constant or two in your back pocket I aint wrong
as to web design, I had to teach my self basic HTML and php/ mySQL ages ago so maybe I coudl offer and get paid to help him...


Try http://eruditegreen.com

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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:53 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
I stand corrected however given the level of education available to him his ideas apear to be way beyond.

It's a bit like leaving primary school and inventing the atomic bomb by comparison IMO
Nope. It is equivalent to leaving Primary School to go to University and apprenticing under Einstein. His work was groundbreaking but not fantastic.

So no. You are no Da Vinci, not even a shadow of someone who actually worked hard and is actually intelligent.
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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:58 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
Science has not got the answers it needs yet.
And probably no ability to find them using the current light model.
The issue of universal constants is hanging there like a dead cat on a rope.
stinking the place up.... and that claim stands up to testing with out a problemo...
But without a proper understanding of what the current light model is, how can you make this claim?
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Old 3rd October 2008, 05:58 AM   #346
ozziemate
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Originally Posted by paximperium View Post
Nope. It is equivalent to leaving Primary School to go to University and apprenticing under Einstein. His work was groundbreaking but not fantastic.

So no. You are no Da Vinci, not even a shadow of someone who actually worked hard and is actually intelligent.
ha you are amazing paxi...I love it...classic, I'll keep a copy for my friends if you don't mind...

so you think I think i am any thing near da vinci, boy where did you dig that up.

or maybe you can't follow posts properly

Last edited by ozziemate; 3rd October 2008 at 06:27 AM.
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Old 3rd October 2008, 06:00 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Mashuna View Post
But without a proper understanding of what the current light model is, how can you make this claim?
simply becasue you can ot differnetiate from travelling photon and the mass that absorbs and emits it.
any way it is more a question than a claim....

can you differentiate between light and mass?
after all why would I claim such a thing if I have no math to back it up...

Last edited by ozziemate; 3rd October 2008 at 06:02 AM.
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Old 3rd October 2008, 06:02 AM   #348
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I think we should get Pixie of Key in here. That would make things much more interesting. Of course, we'd have to make sure Doronshadmi didn't notice this thread to avoid having it collapse into a black hole of stupid.
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Old 3rd October 2008, 06:08 AM   #349
ozziemate
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
ha you are amazing paxi...I love it...classic, I'll keep a copy from my friends if you don't mind...

so you think I think i am any thing near da vinci, boy where did you dig that up.

or maybe you can't follow posts properly
if you can differentiate between a travlling photon and the obejct of mass tha absorbs and emits it then you have solved the problem and the proof then becomes unambiguous.

If you can't then it is ambiguous....pretty simple really
don't need to be qualified to ask that question now do I
a brick layer could ask that question and it would still be valid.
so whats the problem?
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Old 3rd October 2008, 06:12 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
you know of course that I have no formal education in physics - non what so ever [ not even completed highschool]. You know of course that that can actually be a blessing because I am not stuck in the dogma and belief system that is obviously so precious to some as displayed in this thread.
This statement is far beyond just "wrong". Yes, there's a microscopic chance that not knowing the details of specific theories could help you see something more clearly, but not understanding what a theory is can't possibly be an advantage.

Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
Effect is not proof of cause it is simply proof of something happening....and it is in the happening that needs to be validated and proved and that is where the ambiguity of proof of the modelled travelling photon comes into question.
This is a good example of something that someone who understands what physics is would never say. A theory predicts the outcome of experiments. Actual experiments test those predictions. If the results agree, it's a good theory. There's no such thing as "validating the happening" in physics.
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Old 3rd October 2008, 06:19 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post
This statement is far beyond just "wrong". Yes, there's a microscopic chance that not knowing the details of specific theories could help you see something more clearly, but not understanding what a theory is can't possibly be an advantage.


This is a good example of something that someone who understands what physics is would never say. A theory predicts the outcome of experiments. Actual experiments test those predictions. If the results agree, it's a good theory. There's no such thing as "validating the happening" in physics.
so I am talking in a laymans toungue is that so hard to appreciate?

does it effect the question? I don't think so....do you understand the question?
I think you do but are too busy trying to teach me something rather than deal with the question or issue.

I am a bricklayer say and I happened to see what could be a major glitch if I am wrong it should be real easy to solve, but as yet no one has been able to solve it.
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Old 3rd October 2008, 06:25 AM   #352
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Ok Fredrik I'll take your lead:

What do you think I need to learn about the model in question to ask this question?
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Old 3rd October 2008, 06:27 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
if you can differentiate between a travlling photon and the obejct of mass tha absorbs and emits it then you have solved the problem and the proof then becomes unambiguous.
More nonsensical garbage from someone who is proud of his smug ignorance. Bravo.

Quote:
If you can't then it is ambiguous....pretty simple really
don't need to be qualified to ask that question now do I
a brick layer could ask that question and it would still be valid.
so whats the problem?
Your lack of knowledge prevents you from asking relevant questions.

An irrelevant question is still irrelevant no matter how much you demand others give you an answer for it.
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Old 3rd October 2008, 06:27 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
so I am talking in a laymans toungue is that so hard to appreciate?

does it effect the question? I don't think so....do you understand the question?

I am a bricklayer say and I happened to see what could be a major glitch if I am wrong it should be real easy to solve, but as yet no one has been able to solve it.
But you've not managed to persuade anyone else that you've found a problem at all. Maybe if you used specific or technical language, rather than layman's terms, you'd have more luck.
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Old 3rd October 2008, 06:28 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
if you can differentiate between a travlling photon and the obejct of mass tha absorbs and emits it then you have solved the problem and the proof then becomes unambiguous.
What in the world are you babbling about? You're making no sense at all.

How could we possibly fail to distinguish? If I turn on a flashlight it makes light. If I turn it off, it doesn't. So the light isn't the same thing as the flashlight, or the stuff it reflects off, or my eyes.

If you're fixated on the speed, it's very easy to measure - I did it at about age 19 using a laser, a photodiode some distance away from the laser down a long hallway, and a fancy stopwatch (aka an oscilloscope).
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Old 3rd October 2008, 06:29 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by Cuddles View Post
I think we should get Pixie of Key in here. That would make things much more interesting. Of course, we'd have to make sure Doronshadmi didn't notice this thread to avoid having it collapse into a black hole of stupid.
It collapsed into the black hole of stupid a long time ago.

I'm bored. I'm waiting for my patient's test results to come back and am passing the time. I should have brought one of my journals to read.
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Old 3rd October 2008, 06:30 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by Mashuna View Post
But you've not managed to persuade anyone else that you've found a problem at all. Maybe if you used specific or technical language, rather than layman's terms, you'd have more luck.
yeah obviously you are correct...ok tell you what I'll come back in 4 years or so and start it over....deal?
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Old 3rd October 2008, 06:33 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
yeah obviously you are correct...ok tell you what I'll come back in 4 years or so and start it over....deal?
Deal.
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Old 3rd October 2008, 06:35 AM   #359
ozziemate
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Originally Posted by sol invictus View Post
What in the world are you babbling about? You're making no sense at all.

How could we possibly fail to distinguish? If I turn on a flashlight it makes light. If I turn it off, it doesn't. So the light isn't the same thing as the flashlight, or the stuff it reflects off, or my eyes.

If you're fixated on the speed, it's very easy to measure - I did it at about age 19 using a laser, a photodiode some distance away from the laser down a long hallway, and a fancy stopwatch (aka an oscilloscope).
ok I'll try this:
explore the possibility that light does not have to travel to the mass to cause exactly the same effects.
That as far as the photon is concerned the distance betweeen source point a. and mass point b. is zero.
And that the effects we witness and observe are in fact inherant within the mass in question
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Old 3rd October 2008, 06:53 AM   #360
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You know, this is a very instructional thread.

I mean, if you skip Ozziemate's gobbledygook posts.
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