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Old 22nd May 2015, 07:49 AM   #201
Leumas
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Originally Posted by RockNroll View Post
I can't open Cracked on this computer, but yeah, about that, why and when did the whole "whiney misogynistic internet neckbeard" movement become associated with atheism? I constantly see those people smearing their feces all over every part of the internet, but they usually stick to bashing women and feminists (and occasionally gays and minorities). Now, I know atheism is simply lack of belief, and atheists can be as dumb as anyone else, but given those guys' generally far-right views and their obsessive lady hate, I sort of expected the movement as a whole to lean toward religion rather than atheism...

Who cares about what some people say or write on the internet or even in the media.

What matters is the REAL STUFF that is being done in the Supreme Court and in Congress and White House and Local Governments and so on and so forth in REAL WORLD affairs.

Have a look at this post for a litany of not NASTY REAL WORLD activities that theists are doing right now.
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Old 22nd May 2015, 08:00 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
A theist cannot consider evidence which might undermine their belief because doubt and belief are antithetical in the view of most religions, unlike the atheist who lacks a belief to be undermined in the first place and can entertain evidence without fear of repercussion or censure.

Hence the inevitability of "rude" and "dismissive".
While doubt and belief are antithetical to most religions, most theists don't believe that. They can (and will) object to the mere fact that you think they're wrong, because you're probably among the first to actually say so to them, but will generally concede when you point out that they think the same thing about you. Then you have a chance at something like an actual discussion, where all you really need to do is explain how a world view without a big ol' beard in the sky can actually work.

On the other hand, if you lead with "your god is cruel and stupid and you are stupid for believing in it," well, they're going to clam up and you'll both be wasting your respective time, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

You can get some good examples of the latter from most any thread in this forum.
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Old 22nd May 2015, 08:40 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by RockNroll View Post
I can't open Cracked on this computer, but yeah, about that, why and when did the whole "whiney misogynistic internet neckbeard" movement become associated with atheism? I constantly see those people smearing their feces all over every part of the internet, but they usually stick to bashing women and feminists (and occasionally gays and minorities). Now, I know atheism is simply lack of belief, and atheists can be as dumb as anyone else, but given those guys' generally far-right views and their obsessive lady hate, I sort of expected the movement as a whole to lean toward religion rather than atheism...
Anything "nerdy" gets that label, really. So, atheists, gamers, MRAs, libertarians...all that stuff. There's nothing nerdy about religion. Male feminists get the "whiney Internet neckbeard" label, too. (They just leave off the "misogynistic" part.)
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Old 22nd May 2015, 08:42 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I might fail it...
I would just for the fun of it. I actually got to "sit on the other side of the curtain" and talk to some of Eugene Spafford's young men a few years decades back.
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Old 22nd May 2015, 08:45 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy;10666762<snip>

On the other hand, if you lead with "your god is [B
cruel[/b] and stupid and you are stupid for believing in it," well, they're going to clam up and you'll both be wasting your respective time, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

<snip>

Down here in SouthernBaptistLand (a third or more of the U.S.) the simple admission of a lack of belief in their god is sufficient not only to brand you as rude and etc., but also probably a Commie and maybe a prevert (sic).

There's no middle ground to be found.

I've brought this up before, but as an example, in NC when the Liddy Dole Senatorial re-election campaign merely suggested in an ad that her rival Kay Hagen had possibly had fund-raisers who might have associated with atheists it was considered such a despicably low blow that a sure-thing conservative incumbent in a red state was tossed out of office because of the outrage by conservative voters.

Good thing for her she was a Sunday school teacher, or it might have stuck.

And NC is considered one of the more moderate states in the South.
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Old 22nd May 2015, 08:50 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
This is not my experience with any but a very few theists I've ever met. Even those who stop me in the street to try to convert me usually end up conceding points and coming away with a respect for my position after a friendly conversation with me.

Lucky you. Wherever you're living you should be grateful.
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Old 22nd May 2015, 09:09 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Lucky you. Wherever you're living you should be grateful.
I'm grateful for many things about my life.

The point is, though, that it's a mistake to take your own limited experience and extrapolate that out to "most if not all believers".
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Old 22nd May 2015, 09:43 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I'm grateful for many things about my life.

The point is, though, that it's a mistake to take your own limited experience and extrapolate that out to "most if not all believers".
No, you don't get it This is not the International Skeptics Form. This is the "Some Atheists Forum And If You Don't Think/Feel Like Us, You Are Delusional Forum". If you don't get that, you are delusional At least in RP
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Old 22nd May 2015, 09:45 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I'm grateful for many things about my life.

The point is, though, that it's a mistake to take your own limited experience and extrapolate that out to "most if not all believers".

It's a mistake to assume my experience is limited. I haven't always lived down here in SouthernBaptistLand.

I was raised Episcopalian in a church which was progressive enough that the very first rock and roll "Electric Liturgy" in the country (and possibly the world) was held there in 1968. The Mind GarageWP, perhaps the first Christian Rock band, performing. I was an altar server at that church.

Subsequently, over the ensuing more than four and a half decades, I have lived in quite a few different places, with believers ranging from quiet to faith-on-sleeve.

I think I have sufficient experience to make a valid assessment. At least as valid as most other people. Possibly more than most.

On what do you base your assumption that I don't?
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Old 22nd May 2015, 09:53 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
It's a mistake to assume my experience is limited. I haven't always lived down here in SouthernBaptistLand.

I was raised Episcopalian in a church which was progressive enough that the very first rock and roll "Electric Liturgy" in the country (and possibly the world) was held there in 1968. The Mind GarageWP, perhaps the first Christian Rock band, performing. I was an altar server at that church.

Subsequently, over the ensuing more than four and a half decades, I have lived in quite a few different places, with believers ranging from quiet to faith-on-sleeve.

I think I have sufficient experience to make a valid assessment. At least as valid as most other people. Possibly more than most.

On what do you base your assumption that I don't?
You live in the USA. The USA is not the world.
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Old 22nd May 2015, 10:05 AM   #211
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While I was in Bibleland (Tennessee) it was not unusual for office chit chat to include the wonders of last nights bible study. I would say 1 in 7 people had bibles open on their desks.

In some 'if I could change the world' discussion, said "If I were god, I would..." and was immediately pounced on by the group that that was blasphemy. "Evil Atheists" was a topic of conversation at least once a month.

Talking atheism was not in the cards.
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Old 22nd May 2015, 10:13 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
It's a mistake to assume my experience is limited. I haven't always lived down here in SouthernBaptistLand.

I was raised Episcopalian in a church which was progressive enough that the very first rock and roll "Electric Liturgy" in the country (and possibly the world) was held there in 1968. The Mind GarageWP, perhaps the first Christian Rock band, performing. I was an altar server at that church.

Subsequently, over the ensuing more than four and a half decades, I have lived in quite a few different places, with believers ranging from quiet to faith-on-sleeve.

I think I have sufficient experience to make a valid assessment. At least as valid as most other people. Possibly more than most.

On what do you base your assumption that I don't?
There are 7bn people on the surface of this planet. Your experience of what they think will necessarily be limited.
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Old 22nd May 2015, 10:32 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
While I was in Bibleland (Tennessee) it was not unusual for office chit chat to include the wonders of last nights bible study. I would say 1 in 7 people had bibles open on their desks.

In some 'if I could change the world' discussion, said "If I were god, I would..." and was immediately pounced on by the group that that was blasphemy. "Evil Atheists" was a topic of conversation at least once a month.

Talking atheism was not in the cards.
A company I worked for in Kansas had a very interesting rule about these types of discussions. You could talk about anything, nothing was off limit, until someone felt they were being attacked over their point of view.

We actually had some great chats in my team that consisted of fundamental Christians all the way through to practicing pagans, and three atheists. The only time things got weird was when one of fundamentalists and Catholics got into it about dinosaurs.

And if anyone wants to join a faith with a sense of humor I highly recommend Pagans, absolute riot
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Old 22nd May 2015, 10:51 AM   #214
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I think the kind of mindless Rage Against Religon you see an awful lot of on the Internet is totally useless. Religion is a complex subject ,and to simplify it to "RELIGON IT BAD!" is reductionism at it's worst.
And I am a total non believer in religons.
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Old 22nd May 2015, 01:11 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think the kind of mindless Rage Against Religon you see an awful lot of on the Internet is totally useless. Religion is a complex subject ,and to simplify it to "RELIGON IT BAD!" is reductionism at it's worst.
And I am a total non believer in religons.
I think the mindless rage you see in general on the internet is counter productive. And the media is not helping. Even as a Theist this whole war on Christmas has seriously gotten old
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Old 22nd May 2015, 05:02 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think the kind of mindless Rage Against Religon you see an awful lot of on the Internet is totally useless. Religion is a complex subject ,and to simplify it to "RELIGON IT BAD!" is reductionism at it's worst.
And I am a total non believer in religons.

Murder is a very complex thing it is bad for some and good for others.

If X murders Y he is harming Y and his family and his employers and his friends and his insurance agents etc.

On the other hand X benefits and X's family and friends and car dealer.

Also when Y's family catches X, lawyers galore benefit and the Judge and the court system and the owners of the prison and the suppliers of the prison and eventually the makers of the chemicals that will kill X.

And that eventual incarceration and execution also harms X' faily and friends and car dealer .... but it will also have a cathartic effect for Y's family and friends but not so much his insurance agent.

And the DA may eventually run for governor and governor for senator and the senator for President and the President will benefit by retiring and having less grey hairs and more overt endorsement money.

So you see murder is a very complex thing with numerous obvious and hidden nuances and intricacies that boggle the mind with many people benefiting and many people harmed.

Would it be reductionism at it's worst if we simplify it to "MURDER IS BAD!"?

Can I use "MURDER IS BAD" when I tell X's children not to follow in their father's steps.... can I say "MURDER IS BAD" when I tell Y's children about it?

What if X is never caught and his children inherit his ill acquired wealth from killing X.... do I have any chance of convincing them that "MURDER IS BAD" despite them living in the luxuries that were acquired through murder?
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Old 22nd May 2015, 05:26 PM   #217
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Also, I read a response to the Cracked article this morning which said basically the same things you guys have been saying, but I can't find it now. I thought it was on Friendly Atheist, but it was very early in the morning.
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Old 22nd May 2015, 08:40 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
You live in the USA. The USA is not the world.

I was talking about the U.S., not the world.

But since you bring it up, do you suppose the rest of the world as a whole (not merely Western European cultures and derivatives) is more, less, or equally religiously devout and conservative as compared to the U.S.?

Using gay marriage (or even just gay sex) and abortion as litmus tests I wonder what the average is?
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Old 22nd May 2015, 09:00 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
There are 7bn people on the surface of this planet. Your experience of what they think will necessarily be limited.

As would be your own.

This does not mean that it is not possible to make informed judgements about places not directly experienced.

Is it your opinion that the majority of the 7bn people on the surface of the planet are generally more religiously progressive than those in the U.S.?

What experience do you base your opinion on?

Why do you think it is superior to my own?
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Old 22nd May 2015, 11:08 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post

But since you bring it up, do you suppose the rest of the world as a whole (not merely Western European cultures and derivatives) is more, less, or equally religiously devout and conservative as compared to the U.S.?
With the exception of South Vietnam before the war and Ireland, the US is virtually unique in the connection between conservatism and Christian religious devotion.

In most countries, especially Catholic dominated Christian countries, there have been close links with socialism and lesser social justice movements.
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Old 23rd May 2015, 01:28 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
As would be your own.
Indeed. That's why I don't claim my personal experience as evidence of what most or all theists think.

Quote:
This does not mean that it is not possible to make informed judgements about places not directly experienced.

Is it your opinion that the majority of the 7bn people on the surface of the planet are generally more religiously progressive than those in the U.S.?

What experience do you base your opinion on?

Why do you think it is superior to my own?
None of these things relate to anything I've posted. You made a sweeping generalisation about how "most or all" theists behave, based on your own personal experiences. I have pointed out that this is not a good technique for getting accurate results. I have not claimed that using the same technique myself would gain better results.
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Old 23rd May 2015, 01:38 AM   #222
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Hi Leumas

I like the word "wrong". I mean one of my biases is that I am crazy and thus wrong, so for me to learn to live with the fact that I am crazy, I have spent a lot on a time on the word "wrong".
So that is my stick in short - I am crazy and I am proud of it, because I have had to learn to live with it and manage it. Just like a person without legs is still a person, I am a person with a wrong/crazy brain (at least in part).

So if you as a part of the "we will educate" try to educate, you on the other hand also know that those you want to educate can't understand you and what you want to educate about, then it would seem that the plan of "we will educate" won't work.
So for all of us, who can't understand how reality works, how will you get us to understand that, if you know, that we can't understand?

With regards
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Old 23rd May 2015, 05:14 AM   #223
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Mod WarningEnough with the bickering already. Any more and you'll find this thread moderated.
Posted By:kmortis
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Old 23rd May 2015, 05:35 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Hi Leumas

I like the word "wrong". I mean one of my biases is that I am crazy and thus wrong, so for me to learn to live with the fact that I am crazy, I have spent a lot on a time on the word "wrong".
So that is my stick in short - I am crazy and I am proud of it, because I have had to learn to live with it and manage it. Just like a person without legs is still a person, I am a person with a wrong/crazy brain (at least in part).

So if you as a part of the "we will educate" try to educate, you on the other hand also know that those you want to educate can't understand you and what you want to educate about, then it would seem that the plan of "we will educate" won't work.
So for all of us, who can't understand how reality works, how will you get us to understand that, if you know, that we can't understand?

With regards

Hi Tommy,

Do you have something against education or educators? The way you put it, it sounds like some kind of sinister mind control program or something!

In my youth a few centuries back it was drilled in us that teachers were to be respected as one respected one's own parents.

You know Tommy, I educated a few people in my life.

I taught math to high school students and to technical college students and to 1st and second year computer science university students. I also taught physics and chemistry to high school students. I also taught computer related topics to technical college students and in seminars for managers and employees in huge companies and governmental offices. I also used to be a CFI and ages ago a PADI OWSI.

So I do know something about EDUCATION and EDUCATING.

There is something I have learned myself.... there are bright students ... there are stupid students.

Many of the stupid students despite their stupidity, if they in fact recognized their limitations and worked hard could manage to elevate their test scores and in fact even their IQ levels.

But I have come across a few students in my life who were so stupid as to not even know that they were stupid.... these no one could ever educate.

Generally, education teaches a person new things and skills.

Another avenue of education is to adjust incorrect information and wrong skills.

For example a Pilots' training program about Cockpit Resource Management (CRM). In this program pilots are educated about how to divide the duties between the pilot and copilot and how to use checklists etc. etc. etc.

But one of the things that is also done in those courses is to CORRECT bad habits that pilots were doing which have caused accidents and which in turn were the reason CRM training was devised in the first place.

One of those things was Pilots chatting and being distracted with talking about personal matters during important phases of the piloting operations (e.g. below 10,000 feet on approach or departure).

So as you see there are numerous things in life that education can have impact on.... whether it is for teaching new skills or for correcting detrimental habits and practices that may in fact cause the loss of lives in some cases.

EDUCATION IS A GOOD THING.... it is not a bad thing as you seem to want it to appear to be.... it is not a SINISTER FASCISM or BIG BROTHER trying to mind control anyone.

Since when has education become a bad word... ah... unless one happens to be a theist that is.

Martin Luther explained why reason is not something theists should value
  • Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but - more frequently than not - struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God

And the bible fully agreed with him
  • Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
  • 1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
  • 1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
  • 1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;


Regards and may Sophia enlighten you!
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Old 23rd May 2015, 12:13 PM   #225
The Greater Fool
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Acquiring knowledge *IS* a good, if not great way to improving ones self. The more folks that can be motivated to learn, the better for them, the better for the world.

Unfortunately, history shows us changing wrong beliefs, even wrong evidence based beliefs, takes a long time. Generally, the old beliefs die with the generation holding them.

Religion may lose membership over (long) time, and should result in it having less influence. I don't think it will ever be reduced to a level that it doesn't impact society, politics, and law.

None of this should be interpreted as a reason not to educate as many folks as possible with the best information available as much as we can.

History demonstrates that there *ARE* dangers in trying to remove contrary delusional beliefs from society. Too often, there are those that won't or can't wait for generational change, or simply won't tolerate contrary delusional beliefs at all. Sword point conversions, genocides, re-education camps are throughout history, and are active today. In this regard, the slippery slope is demonstrably real.

After all, examine the language being used:
delusion
noun de·lu·sion \di-ˈlü-zhən, dē-\
: a belief that is not true : a false idea
: a false idea or belief that is caused by mental illness
(Bolding Mine)

Society already tries to 'fix' delusional people, some against their will, because they may be a danger to others or themselves. The language used here to describe wrong beliefs is purposeful and emotive.

Of course, we have at this point abandoned thoughts of educating delustional theists. You can't educate away delusion [I have intimate experience with this]. This 'delusional' rhetoric flies in the face of 'educate them' platitudes.

Further, It's nonsensical rhetoric to claim atheists are only responding to what those delusional theists are doing. EVERYONE is advocating for their closely held beliefs, and it is enlightened self interest that causes us to fight contrary beliefs. If one believes ANYTHING strongly, for whatever reason, why would one not advocate and support that position in society, politics, and law? Why would one not oppose contrary beliefs?

Contrary to what some would prefer, theists and atheists have the same rights and responsibilities to advocate their positions. I, like many others, hate, Hate, HATE the evil religions propagate, and "we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender."
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Old 23rd May 2015, 06:19 PM   #226
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Relevant. A very thoughtful article from a friend of ours.

You Just Don’t Know As Much As Me

Excerpt (I strongly recommend that you read the whole post):

Quote:
During these past few weeks, I’ve been pushing to get more people involved in my site, particularly those outside of my normal sphere of influence — Christians, Muslims, etc. In the process of doing this, I entered into a delightful email correspondence with a particular Christian leader who was very supportive of the ideas behind this site, and offered to help promote it to several online Christian groups that he participates in. He also offered to exchange blog posts on my site and his.

However, there was one part of our exchange that really chaffed me. I am a member of The Clergy Project, an organization that helps both active and ex-clergy who have abandoned their faith and become atheists. We were talking about this a little, and he expressed regret that churches didn’t do better supplying pastoral support, because then clergy wouldn’t burn out; and that they should get better philosophical and theological training, because then they would have found the answers to the questions that caused them to leave the church.

Now, I understand his perspective; and certainly I agree that there are numerous examples of churches and religious organizations that have failed to provide adequate support to their clergy. But I immediately took offense at the idea that all of us (The Clergy Project currently has over 600 members, all of whom are clergy who have become atheists) did so essentially out of ignorance…because we weren’t as well educated as him, because we didn’t know as much as him, etc. Or that it was because of some sort of psychological breakdown, where if we hadn’t faced so much pressure, we would never have rejected our beliefs.

My initial reaction was that this was incredibly condescending. And worse, that it sought to reduce what are often very complex reasons for abandoning our faith, down to a few trite excuses. Excuses that are, in my opinion (and that of many others in my position) completely wrong.

However…this article is not to talk about how condescending or arrogant he is. Because he’s not. Or at least, no more so than I am, or most other people are. I have a principle that I always seek to apply myself, that whenever I seek to criticize others, I must examine my own behavior, and what I would do in their situation. So that’s what I did. I contemplated the question, “What is my attitude towards those who, like him, who hold religious beliefs?”

The answer was unsurprising, but also unsettling. Because honestly, my attitude towards him, and all other people with religious beliefs, is pretty much exactly the same as the sentiments that he expressed about atheist ex-clergy in his email. That they hold those beliefs either because A) they lack adequate knowledge, and hold their beliefs in ignorance, or B) that there is some psychological weakness or problem that causes them to cling to such beliefs. That if they only knew what I knew, and were honest in confronting that knowledge, they’d reject their beliefs just as I have done.

And the truth is, the vast majority of us — be we atheist or theist, Humanist or Christian, Liberal or Conservative — we all believe that we are right, and the other people are wrong. And of course, if the other people are wrong, it must be either because they don’t have all the information we do, or because they are unwilling to accept the consequences of that information. There may be a few people who don’t think this way, but they’d be a tiny minority.

The problem is, every time we actually say this, we are creating barriers to any real communication. Few people will respond positively to being told essentially that we think they are less knowledgeable than us, or less psychologically stable. Quite the opposite, it will almost inevitably result in people reacting defensively…just as I did above. Just as Andy would likely respond if I were to say something similar to him.
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Old 24th May 2015, 09:35 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
With the exception of South Vietnam before the war and Ireland, the US is virtually unique in the connection between conservatism and Christian religious devotion.

I disagree.

Organized religion is, in general, intrinsically conservative. In many ways the core purpose of that organization is for the maintenance of the status quo, the very definition of conservatism.

Progressive or liberal religious groups earn those labels by comparison to the mainstream religious positions.

Nor do I think that the U.S. is somehow unique. Western Europe tends to be more relaxed about religion, but the farther from that Western culture, and the farther from wealth and privilege you get the more conservative religious practice becomes. There's a reason that they are enacting death penalties for gays in parts of Africa, and it isn't because of their enlightened religious beliefs.

Quote:
In most countries, especially Catholic dominated Christian countries, there have been close links with socialism and lesser social justice movements.

Sure. Generally in spite of the core church hierarchy. The Catholic Church as an entity has a well documented history of working in concert with the established political power. The handful of priests and nuns who agitate against the political status quo in those Catholic dominated Christian countries are rarely doing so with the blessings of their superiors, and often in direct disobedience.
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Old 24th May 2015, 09:46 AM   #228
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All true.

But I do think very rarely, and practically never in ostensibly secular Western style democracy, do we ever see anything outside the US that is really comparable to the relationship between the American Conservative Political Spectrum and the American "Religious Right."

Like in Europe religion is more... official but has far less actual influence (that sentence probably made a lot more sense in my head). Great Britain has official, government back churches but the have only the vaguest, almost completely symbolic, power over the actual government. Hell Vatican City is inside Italy but Italy seems to operate at, at worst if not better, pretty much the same level of religious influence as us.

Can you imagine American if the Southern Baptist Convention had an autonomous country inside of Atlanta?

I think the weird paradox of "religion" as a concept having such massive political influence while almost no one religion has any official power or official recognition is a little unique to the US.
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Old 24th May 2015, 10:06 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Great Britain has official, government back churches but the have only the vaguest, almost completely symbolic, power over the actual government.
More than a quarter of the House of Lords consists of Bishops.
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Old 24th May 2015, 10:17 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
More than a quarter of the House of Lords consists of Bishops.
And that's sorta my point. Even given that religion doesn't exert as much power in the UK as it does in the US, or at least not anymore.

Can you imagine the US if 1/4 of Congress were ordained Catholic Priests or Southern Baptist Deacons? We'd be a theocracy on any practical level.

Again that weird paradox of influence and power seeming work the opposite way in the US.
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Old 24th May 2015, 10:37 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
More than a quarter of the House of Lords consists of Bishops.

They're a lot less than that. There's 26 Bishops out of a total of 780 members. They are more than a quarter of the hereditary members. They're swamped though by the 666 life peers.

http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-a...-of-the-lords/

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Old 24th May 2015, 11:02 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by saraban View Post
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
More than a quarter of the House of Lords consists of Bishops.
They're a lot less than that. There's 26 Bishops out of a total of 780 members. They are more than a quarter of the hereditary members. They're swamped though by the 666 life peers.

http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-a...-of-the-lords/

You beat me to it... it is also a good thing you are using a citation that is not the Wikipedia one which I was about to use because you might have been accused derogatorily of using Wiki links as if that is a bad thing to do.
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Old 24th May 2015, 11:31 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
More than a quarter of the House of Lords consists of Bishops.
And Tony Blair was a member of the Christian Socialist movement, but hey stop using facts when confronted by perceptions, you are never going to win that argument.
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Old 24th May 2015, 11:33 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The handful of priests and nuns who agitate against the political status quo in those Catholic dominated Christian countries are rarely doing so with the blessings of their superiors, and often in direct disobedience.
Evidence? Oh wait what was I thinking....never mind, smoke them if you got them
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Old 24th May 2015, 11:50 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by saraban View Post
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
More than a quarter of the House of Lords consists of Bishops.
They're a lot less than that. There's 26 Bishops out of a total of 780 members. They are more than a quarter of the hereditary members. They're swamped though by the 666 life peers.

http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-a...-of-the-lords/

Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
More than a quarter of the House of Lords consists of Bishops.
And Tony Blair was a member of the Christian Socialist movement, but hey stop using facts when confronted by perceptions, you are never going to win that argument.

Apparently 26 out of 780 being more than a quarter is a fact nowadays.

I guess it all depends on if you're looking at it in the right CONTEXT... no?
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Old 24th May 2015, 02:18 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by saraban View Post
They're a lot less than that. There's 26 Bishops out of a total of 780 members. They are more than a quarter of the hereditary members. They're swamped though by the 666 life peers.

http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-a...-of-the-lords/
My mistake, I was looking at hereditary peers only.
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Old 24th May 2015, 02:25 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
And Tony Blair was a member of the Christian Socialist movement, but hey stop using facts when confronted by perceptions, you are never going to win that argument.
I think there's an important distinction to be made between a Prime Minister who is a Christian, and a Prime Minister who is acting on behalf of the Church. As it is, the public message about personal religious beliefs from Blair's team was "we don't do God", and he waited until he was out of office to convert to his wife's Catholicism. This is really not the same as Bishops serving in the House of Lords.
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Old 24th May 2015, 03:44 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
My mistake, I was looking at hereditary peers only.
I did wonder if that was the case.
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Old 25th May 2015, 11:00 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
SNIP.....

Sure. Generally in spite of the core church hierarchy. The Catholic Church as an entity has a well documented history of working in concert with the established political power. The handful of priests and nuns who agitate against the political status quo in those Catholic dominated Christian countries are rarely doing so with the blessings of their superiors, and often in direct disobedience.
Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
Evidence? Oh wait what was I thinking....never mind, smoke them if you got them
I can't tell if MG1962 is being serious or ironic. Quadrigenta's last sentence is correct. A good example is Father Ernesto Cardenal, a supporter of the Sandinistas in Nicaragua. I believe he was Minister of Culture after the revolution.

When John Paul II arrived in Managua, he publicly scolded Cardenal right on the airport for disobedience.
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Old 26th May 2015, 07:05 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by yomero View Post
I can't tell if MG1962 is being serious or ironic. Quadrigenta's last sentence is correct. A good example is Father Ernesto Cardenal, a supporter of the Sandinistas in Nicaragua. I believe he was Minister of Culture after the revolution.

When John Paul II arrived in Managua, he publicly scolded Cardenal right on the airport for disobedience.
I am being very serious

And what was the actual act of disobedience that Cardenal was scolded for? And yes I do know the answer.
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