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Tags Colin Kaepernick , patriotism issues , protest incidents , protest issues , sports incidents

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Old 20th September 2016, 07:08 AM   #1
Jules Galen
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Protests During National Anthem...

The recent wave of protests during the National Anthem that was sparked by Colin Kaepernick's "taking a knee" before San Francisco 49 'ers football games has become a hot issue around the country as thousands of other fans and athletes across the country are starting to do the same thing. Every week the protest spreads and so does the vitriol against it. In fact, I'm starting to believe the vitriol is feeding the movement, and what has started out as a protest against the oppression of Black Life is going to eventually take on a larger set of social issues as the vitriol mounts.

If this is true - that vitriol is feeding the protest movement - then this movement is going to become a monster, because the likes of Donald Trump have clearly demonstrated that a lot of Americans are frustrated and hate-filled. As a result, the people who line up against the movement may risk being on the wrong side of history.

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 20th September 2016, 07:19 AM   #2
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The trick will be to convince people filled with vitriol to see reason. With K's 'protest', I think he is making a rookie error, in that he is blaming the entire country, as represented by the flag, for the actions of a few. Lots of us are as incensed, as he claims to be, about injustice, but we relish the flag that also represents the right to protest, demonstrate, and use the rule of law to prosecute criminals. The vitriol crew may be aligning themselves against the wrong image.
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Old 20th September 2016, 07:24 AM   #3
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Instead of knee jerk reaction to the action of the protest, one should wonder at the reason for the protest.

IMHO
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Old 20th September 2016, 07:32 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
Instead of knee jerk reaction to the action of the protest, one should wonder at the reason for the protest.

IMHO
That would be crazy. We have famous great responses to illegal protests like the polices perfect response to Martin Luther King jr. criminal march on Selma. The cops showed up and put a stop to is as they are supposed to, and there was a movie made about their heroism recently. There is a lot to learn from those great american heroes.
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Old 20th September 2016, 08:15 AM   #5
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The NFL and sports media in general loves this stuff.
Despite the ostensible conflict of interest(s) with one of the NFL's biggest advertisers being the military and their overly patriotic, thinly-veiled recruitment efforts, this type of controversy is great for ratings.
The NFLs own network has been playing this up for weeks, interviewing players about their thoughts, their own planned protests, etc. If they wanted to quash it they could easily just not film the players involved.
Personally, I think it's fine.
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Old 20th September 2016, 08:19 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
The NFL and sports media in general loves this stuff.
Despite the ostensible conflict of interest(s) with one of the NFL's biggest advertisers being the military and their overly patriotic, thinly-veiled recruitment efforts, this type of controversy is great for ratings.
The NFLs own network has been playing this up for weeks, interviewing players about their thoughts, their own planned protests, etc. If they wanted to quash it they could easily just not film the players involved.
Personally, I think it's fine.
Good insight. I don't know if it would "Quash' the movement, but I do agree with you that even publicizing the protests is good for NFL ratings and furthers the movement.

Thanks.
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Old 20th September 2016, 08:27 AM   #7
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Symbolic gestures to protest symbolic gestures? What a wonderful way for people to feel they are accomplishing something without having to do any work! I heartily approve of every side of this controversy, and I shall show my support by making a symbolic gesture.
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Old 20th September 2016, 08:38 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Symbolic gestures to protest symbolic gestures? What a wonderful way for people to feel they are accomplishing something without having to do any work! I heartily approve of every side of this controversy, and I shall show my support by making a symbolic gesture.
Well, exactly.
And that's why the NFL loves it.
Doesnt slow down the game or affect revenues in any way. All it does is draw viewers.
If you had players refusing to play or stopping the game somehow, then you'd see the corporations acting differently.
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Old 20th September 2016, 09:27 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Well, exactly.
And that's why the NFL loves it.
Doesnt slow down the game or affect revenues in any way. All it does is draw viewers.
If you had players refusing to play or stopping the game somehow, then you'd see the corporations acting differently.
And the Corporations would really be angry if some players wore socks - or something - that said "McDonald's makes Kids Fat" or "Budweiser Kills" or something to that effect. I mean, protesting the National Anthem or the Flag is one thing, but jeopardizing the profits of Corporations is just unacceptable.

But...I think we're kind of getting off topic.
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Old 20th September 2016, 09:40 AM   #10
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Considering that flag burning can be considered to be a legitimate form of free speech, then I would say that protests during the national anthem could also be considered to be a legitimate form of free speech.

However, if one is a public figure (such as a famous athlete) who is making vast amount of money via sponsors and/or public adoration, then one could easily loose those lucrative ties by making a protest during the national anthem.

Therefore, I would advise such a person to carefully consider the numerous ramifications of such a protest.
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Old 20th September 2016, 09:45 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Considering that flag burning can be considered to be a legitimate form of free speech, then I would say that protests during the national anthem could also be considered to be a legitimate form of free speech.

However, if one is a public figure (such as a famous athlete) who is making vast amount of money via sponsors and/or public adoration, then one could easily loose those lucrative ties by making a protest during the national anthem.

Therefore, I would advise such a person to carefully consider the numerous ramifications of such a protest.
Kaepernick has the best selling jersey in the league since he started with the protests. That is pretty good business for a marginal player who lost his starting position and many thought would be cut from his team before the year started.
Now both the team and the player are profiting from his presence.

I an cynical by nature, but considering the league's actions, media coverage jersey sale angles, etc. I am left to believe that this is more a compelling storyline to increase profits than a vehicle for social change.
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Old 20th September 2016, 09:48 AM   #12
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Francis Scott Key was clear about how to deal with rebellious blacks, you kill them. That is a major part of the Star Spangled Banner after all, how British Colonial Marines comprised of former slaves who sided with the British for the freedom died in great numbers to much rejoicing.

It is the american way to kill uppity blacks and the national anthem celebrates that, so why are people shirking away from the clear response to these protests? It is what the writer would have wanted.
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Old 20th September 2016, 10:03 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
However, if one is a public figure (such as a famous athlete) who is making vast amount of money via sponsors and/or public adoration, then one could easily loose those lucrative ties by making a protest during the national anthem.

Therefore, I would advise such a person to carefully consider the numerous ramifications of such a protest.
If one is a person of color (including a famous athlete) who is walking around as a black person, then one could easily lose their freedom or life by not complying with government employees fast enough.

Therefore, I would advise such a person to carefully consider the numerous ramifications of waking up black.
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Old 20th September 2016, 10:16 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Kaepernick has the best selling jersey in the league since he started with the protests. That is pretty good business for a marginal player who lost his starting position and many thought would be cut from his team before the year started.
Now both the team and the player are profiting from his presence.

I an cynical by nature, but considering the league's actions, media coverage jersey sale angles, etc. I am left to believe that this is more a compelling storyline to increase profits than a vehicle for social change.
While I am sure that there is some money to be made with jersey sales, I expect that the really big bucks come in personal endorsements and movies like Michael Jordan does.
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Old 20th September 2016, 10:19 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
If one is a person of color (including a famous athlete) who is walking around as a black person, then one could easily lose their freedom or life by not complying with government employees fast enough.

Therefore, I would advise such a person to carefully consider the numerous ramifications of waking up black.
What are you talking about?

One can decide if one wants to protest something or not protest that something. However, one does not have such an option in regards to the skin that they were born with.
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Old 20th September 2016, 10:26 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
While I am sure that there is some money to be made with jersey sales, I expect that the really big bucks come in personal endorsements and movies like Michael Jordan does.
Players who ride the bench don't really get endorsement deals.
Especially not players like Kaepernick who are generally unpopular.
That being said I just did some research and it turns out that the player doesnt really even get a cut from individual jersey sales.
On the other hand, if Trump has taught us anything, it's that no matter whether the publicity is good or bad, it is publicity, and will get you attention and followers no matter what you claim.
Kaep might just be a warrior for social justice. Or he might just be an attention seeker who wants money.
My larger point about the protests overall is that they're a money maker for the league. The anthem is not considered sacred by the league and so long as something increases revenue, they'll pretty much go along with it. Their shameless merchandising of breast cancer awareness and military service illustrate as much. These protests, while maybe well intentioned by the players, are not disruptive as many think. Cynically, these players (black mostly) are yet again being exploited.
I would consider protests that disrupted the actual game play more substantive.
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Old 20th September 2016, 10:28 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
What are you talking about?

One can decide if one wants to protest something or not protest that something. However, one does not have such an option in regards to the skin that they were born with.
One can also decide if they are more concerned with someone not standing for the flag or people being disproportionately arrested and killed due to their race.

Kaepernick, like all NFL players, most likely understands his precarious employment situation. Those contracts aren't worth the paper they are printed on. He doesn't need any of us concerned about it. Let's focus on the issue being protested over, shall we?

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Old 20th September 2016, 11:00 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Players who ride the bench don't really get endorsement deals.
Especially not players like Kaepernick who are generally unpopular.
That being said I just did some research and it turns out that the player doesnt really even get a cut from individual jersey sales.
On the other hand, if Trump has taught us anything, it's that no matter whether the publicity is good or bad, it is publicity, and will get you attention and followers no matter what you claim.
Kaep might just be a warrior for social justice. Or he might just be an attention seeker who wants money.
My larger point about the protests overall is that they're a money maker for the league. The anthem is not considered sacred by the league and so long as something increases revenue, they'll pretty much go along with it. Their shameless merchandising of breast cancer awareness and military service illustrate as much. These protests, while maybe well intentioned by the players, are not disruptive as many think. Cynically, these players (black mostly) are yet again being exploited.
I would consider protests that disrupted the actual game play more substantive.
You may be right.

However, in my bit of experience, such as with the 'Dixie Chicks', the sponsors who really hold the purse strings tend to withdraw from public figures who are controversial.
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Old 20th September 2016, 11:03 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
One can also decide if they are more concerned with someone not standing for the flag or people being disproportionately arrested and killed due to their race.

Kaepernick, like all NFL players, most likely understands his precarious employment situation. Those contracts aren't worth the paper they are printed on. He doesn't need any of us concerned about it. Let's focus on the issue being protested over, shall we?

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By all means, let us talk about the issue being protested.

I never tried to say that he did not have a right to protest whatever it is that he wanted to protest. Instead, I simply pointed out that if he does protest, then it may cause him some serious money to do so.

Such things have been know to happen before to athletes: just look at the Muhammad Ali case for example.
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On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."
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Old 20th September 2016, 11:03 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
You may be right.

However, in my bit of experience, such as with the 'Dixie Chicks', the sponsors who really hold the purse strings tend to withdraw from public figures who are controversial.
Agree (depending on the controversy anyway).
And that's probably why no real star players have taken any kind of major role with these "protests".
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Old 20th September 2016, 11:17 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
By all means, let us talk about the issue being protested.
And you go right back to the concern trolling

Quote:
I never tried to say that he did not have a right to protest whatever it is that he wanted to protest. Instead, I simply pointed out that if he does protest, then it may cause him some serious money to do so.
You don't have to point out either of those things.. Everyone agrees Kaepernick has a right to protest (ok, some people don't, but we're not talking to them) and people have a right to be mad at him, and people have the right to call them morons etc etc etc ad infinitum. We really don't need to go through that feedback loop.

And, as mentioned, Kaepernick probably understands the consequences he may face far more than you or I.

Quote:
Such things have been know to happen before to athletes: just look at the Muhammad Ali case for example.
Ya, he became one of the most beloved athletes of all time. I wonder how many folks who were praising him a few months ago are trashing Kaepernick now.
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Old 20th September 2016, 11:26 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
I never tried to say that he did not have a right to protest whatever it is that he wanted to protest. Instead, I simply pointed out that if he does protest, then it may cause him some serious money to do so.
Since he's no doubt aware of that himself, doesn't that rather suggest that he sincerely believes in the cause he's protesting for?

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Old 20th September 2016, 11:29 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Agree (depending on the controversy anyway).
And that's probably why no real star players have taken any kind of major role with these "protests".
Thanks much. That is about what I was thinking as well.
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Old 20th September 2016, 11:34 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Agree (depending on the controversy anyway).
And that's probably why no real star players have taken any kind of major role with these "protests".
And I can understand that. However, to come out and actively criticize Kapaernick as did sports caster Brent Musburger did recently I believe is potential career suicide. I don't think the "Stank" will ever wash off Musburger and his ilk.
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Old 20th September 2016, 11:35 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post

I never tried to say that he did not have a right to protest whatever it is that he wanted to protest. Instead, I simply pointed out that if he does protest, then it may cause him some serious money to do so.
I'm not sure how much he's lost in endorsements, but I do know that the 9ers jumped the gun & gave him a $114,000,000 contract with $61,000,000 guaranteed. (Panther fan giggle) So he's not hurting.
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Old 20th September 2016, 11:36 AM   #26
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Old 20th September 2016, 11:37 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
And you go right back to the concern trolling
You do not know what you are talking about. I am not trolling.

Quote:
You don't have to point out either of those things.. Everyone agrees Kaepernick has a right to protest (ok, some people don't, but we're not talking to them) and people have a right to be mad at him, and people have the right to call them morons etc etc etc ad infinitum. We really don't need to go through that feedback loop.
Wrong!

You do not get to decide what I should post and what I should not post.

However, if you have a problem with my postings, then you are at liberty to report them.

Quote:
And, as mentioned, Kaepernick probably understands the consequences he may face far more than you or I.
I do hope that you are correct.

As for me, I do not know him so I cannot say one way or the other.

Quote:
Ya, he became one of the most beloved athletes of all time. I wonder how many folks who were praising him a few months ago are trashing Kaepernick now.
I expect that there are quite a few people who are doing just that.
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On 05 FEB 2019, President Donald Trump said in his Sate of the Union Address: "If there is going to be peace and legislation, there cannot be war and investigation."
On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."
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Old 20th September 2016, 11:38 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Since he's no doubt aware of that himself, doesn't that rather suggest that he sincerely believes in the cause he's protesting for?

Dave
He may well be aware of the possible consequences. Since I do not know him, then I cannot say for certain one way or the other.
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On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."
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Old 20th September 2016, 11:39 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
I'm not sure how much he's lost in endorsements, but I do know that the 9ers jumped the gun & gave him a $114,000,000 contract with $61,000,000 guaranteed. (Panther fan giggle) So he's not hurting.
Wow!

They should have hired me instead. I would have worked for only half of that amount.
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On 05 FEB 2019, President Donald Trump said in his Sate of the Union Address: "If there is going to be peace and legislation, there cannot be war and investigation."
On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."
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Old 20th September 2016, 11:41 AM   #30
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Right. People are angry about players taking a knee, or about socks.

They aren't angry about innocent people being shot and killed by police, though.

Which one seems more important to you?

And I address that to every person who responds to this thread.
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Old 20th September 2016, 11:43 AM   #31
Jules Galen
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Right. People are angry about players taking a knee, or about socks.

They aren't angry about innocent people being shot and killed by police, though.

Which one seems more important to you?

And I address that to every person who responds to this thread.
We get it. But there are a bunch of people out there doing their best to cloud the issue.

Thanks.
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Old 20th September 2016, 11:56 AM   #32
Mumbles
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
We get it. But there are a bunch of people out there doing their best to cloud the issue.

Thanks.
Oh, folks get that as well. And they speak out clearly about what the issue is., whenever asked.

There will always be people trying to cloud the issue. One point of these protests is to just cut through their BS, by showing how messed up things are.
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Old 20th September 2016, 12:07 PM   #33
Donal
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
You do not know what you are talking about. I am not trolling.
You are showing more concerned over a guy with $61 million in guaranteed money than with people being wrongfully killed by government workers. You consistently derail the conversation with comments about Kaepernick's employment.

Quote:
Wrong!
And yet, you bend over backwards to prove me right.

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You do not get to decide what I should post and what I should not post.
I didn't. I pointed out how pointless what you posted is and am now calling you out for being part of the problem.

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However, if you have a problem with my postings, then you are at liberty to report them.
More fallacious than breaking the MA, as I see it. You have to do some pretty extreme stuff to get me to report you.

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I do hope that you are correct.
Dude's got people who handle this stuff for him. Agents, lawyers, accountants etc etc

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As for me, I do not know him so I cannot say one way or the other.
And yet, you will continue to talk about that over the wrongful death of people at the hands of police officers.


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I expect that there are quite a few people who are doing just that.
Without a hint of irony.
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Old 20th September 2016, 12:10 PM   #34
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
And you go right back to the concern trolling



You don't have to point out either of those things.. Everyone agrees Kaepernick has a right to protest (ok, some people don't, but we're not talking to them) and people have a right to be mad at him, and people have the right to call them morons etc etc etc ad infinitum. We really don't need to go through that feedback loop.

And, as mentioned, Kaepernick probably understands the consequences he may face far more than you or I.



Ya, he became one of the most beloved athletes of all time. I wonder how many folks who were praising him a few months ago are trashing Kaepernick now.
We will have to wait and see if Kaepernick "transcends race" like Ali did. I figure that is unlikely.
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Old 20th September 2016, 12:11 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Laziest protest ever
Not any more lazy than a sit in.
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Old 20th September 2016, 12:22 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
You are showing more concerned over a guy with $61 million in guaranteed money than with people being wrongfully killed by government workers. You consistently derail the conversation with comments about Kaepernick's employment.
You wrong again. I never said anything of the sort.

Quote:
And yet, you bend over backwards to prove me right.
So everything is about you? That explains a great deal.

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I didn't. I pointed out how pointless what you posted is and am now calling you out for being part of the problem.
You are wrong again. The only problem are the fictitious problems that you have invented so that you can feel aggrieved about something.

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More fallacious than breaking the MA, as I see it. You have to do some pretty extreme stuff to get me to report you.
You are wrong again. I have not done anything to you and I have not broken the Membership Agreement.

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Dude's got people who handle this stuff for him. Agents, lawyers, accountants etc etc
Well then, terrific for him.

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And yet, you will continue to talk about that over the wrongful death of people at the hands of police officers.
You are wrong again. I never did anything of the sort.

Quote:
Without a hint of irony.
If you can ever figure out what you are saying, then let us know.
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Old 20th September 2016, 12:47 PM   #37
Donal
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
You wrong again. I never said anything of the sort.
In posts 10, 14, 18, 19, 27 and 28, you referenced Kaepernick's earning and/or your "concern" about it.


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So everything is about you? That explains a great deal.
You certainly won't let it be about the wrongful death of people at the hands of government workers.

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You are wrong again. The only problem are the fictitious problems that you have invented so that you can feel aggrieved about something.
There is plenty of evidence to support the claim that minorities and poor people are disproportionately arrested, punished and even killed by the various facets of our justice system. It is in no way fictitious.

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You are wrong again. I have not done anything to you and I have not broken the Membership Agreement.
I just said I don't think you are breaking the MA. And if you were, it wouldn't be enough for me to report you.

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Well then, terrific for him.
Can you finally move on?

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You are wrong again. I never did anything of the sort.
In all of your posts, there are 2 sentences about that. And you quickly derailed back to your "concern" over Kaepernick's employment status.

Quote:
If you can ever figure out what you are saying, then let us know.
People wrongfully being killed far outweighs a government sponsored promotional gimmick or your concern over a millionaire's employment. Are you still confused?
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Old 20th September 2016, 12:54 PM   #38
Donal
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
We will have to wait and see if Kaepernick "transcends race" like Ali did. I figure that is unlikely.
Well, no. Ali was a generational talent. Also, he was in a sport that was all about self promotion. But its not like Ali was openly embraced my mainstream America.
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Old 20th September 2016, 01:13 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Well, no. Ali was a generational talent. Also, he was in a sport that was all about self promotion. But its not like Ali was openly embraced my mainstream America.
In his death he was. Then it was all about how he transcended race.
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Old 20th September 2016, 01:15 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Kaepernick has the best selling jersey in the league since he started with the protests. That is pretty good business for a marginal player who lost his starting position and many thought would be cut from his team before the year started.
Now both the team and the player are profiting from his presence.
If you want to state the position honestly, you'd acknowledge that the player is making no money out of it at all, giving all of the proceeds to relevant charities.

Never let facts stand in the way of a god rant, eh?

Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Right. People are angry about players taking a knee, or about socks.

They aren't angry about innocent people being shot and killed by police, though.

Which one seems more important to you?

And I address that to every person who responds to this thread.
Bingo!

That's it in a nutshell, and it seems pretty clear to me that those crying about the protests wish all the damned ******* would just shut up and do as whitey tells them.
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