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Old 1st March 2020, 12:11 PM   #401
Lurch
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Not quite sure why you had to highlight once sentence in a quote redacted that small but all good.

Can you point out his track record being bad with regard to COVID-19.

Cheers
You really need someone to lay out Trump's tack record with COVID-19? I though news was carried by means faster than tramp steamers these days.

Are we, like you seem to be suggesting, supposed to do a system-wide memory reset on every little thing Trump engages with? Assign all past behavior as null and void? Assume from the word go that real presidential handling could obtain?

I can't recall a single instance--or at least such are swamped by the sheer numbers--of other than idiotic bungling on all fronts with this man and his coterie of limpet-lipped enablers.
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Old 1st March 2020, 12:24 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It's hard to assess Trump's response, or the government's response in general to the coronavirus because so much of what ought to be happening right now is happening behind the scenes.

There are a lot of things that only the President of the United States can do. He can assemble experts and get them on the phone to get the best possible information. He can spur efforts that no one else could do.

As an illustration, I heard a PBS segment abut mask shortages on Friday. Donald Trump can pick up the phone, and call the CDC or wherever they keep the smart people and say, "Do we really need more masks?" If they say yes, which I think they would, Trump could call the president of 3M and say, "We need more masks. Can you do it? What do you need from us?"

That guy might say he needs a guarantee that overtime coverage will be made up to them, so there's a profit guarantee. He might say that he needs some temporary regulatory loosening. He might say he needs money, right now. Those are the kinds of things that Trump could say, "I'll call Mitch and Nancy and make sure they understand. Once I get the word from them that it will happen, I'll call you back. Stay in your office for the next two hours so I can get it done. Meanwhile, I'll have the Secretary of HHS draft an executive order to tide us over until Congress can act."

Well, he could do all that.

Based on his track record, he won't, but he could. Still, in theory, he could be doing lots of things in the background that would increase preparedness, and we would never know.
Trump and his administration have been spreading falsehoods and misinformation about the dangers of the virus.

Seems pretty easy to make an assessment based on that.
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Old 1st March 2020, 02:16 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
The silver screen is--or can be--for the modern audience what Homer was to our distant forebears.

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Old 1st March 2020, 02:30 PM   #404
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I don’t see any clear evidence for your second paragraph. I’d like to believe it’s true, but until his supporters start believing it we’re just where we’ve always been. Maybe the virus will do the trick. Retirement accounts are taking a big hit. I’m happy to blame that on Trump, but it can’t be all his fault.

Some of his supporters are probably hoping that this is the beginning of the apocalypse. Retirement accounts are dwindling due to stockmarket fears, but they may recover when much fewer retirees are left.

Quote:
Trump’s comment Friday night, characterizing Democratic criticism of the administration’s response to the virus as a “hoax,” lent weight to the perception that he’s minimizing the potential for harm in search of political gain. He emphasized Saturday that he does not consider the coronavirus threat a hoax — only the pushback from Democrats.
Trump has a record of unreliability on this front. In one hurricane episode, he displayed a map doctored to reflect his personal and ill-founded theory that Alabama would take it on the chin. In another, he dismissed the Puerto Rico death toll as a concoction by Democrats.
AP FACT CHECK: Trump's viral spin on virus; Dem oversteps (AP Fact Check, Feb. 29, 2020)

I look forward to seeing Trump's Sharpie-'improved' world map of Covid-19 cases.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st March 2020, 02:49 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Some of his supporters are probably hoping that this is the beginning of the apocalypse. Retirement accounts are dwindling due to stockmarket fears, but they may recover when much fewer retirees are left.




I look forward to seeing Trump's Sharpie-'improved' world map of Covid-19 cases.
Don't worry, like a miracle, it will all just disappear in April.
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Old 1st March 2020, 03:21 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You think there is a thought that passes through his head that doesn't end up on Twitter? If he was doing as you exampled he would be letting everyone know. Indeed it would be to his benefit to be telling us.

Yet all we hear about is some restaurant and his opinions on some political rivals.
All true.

Sadly, all we can really do is wait and see what happens in order to determine if he did it right. Clearly, he isn't going to actually do it right himself, and surely Pence has no special knowledge to get it right, either, but it is conceivable that Pence is actually getting the right people to do something behind the scenes, and it will work, or that there really isn't much danger anyway. If not very many people die, then Trump gets credit. If not, he ought to get blame.

This is really a case where the President and only the President has the ability to make certain things happen. He really is in charge and he really is responsible for the outcome.


And that's scary.


However, if his response fails, he will lose the upcoming election, and we'll at least be rid of him at this time next year. I have no fear of any other outcome.
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Old 1st March 2020, 03:24 PM   #407
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The weaponization of the coronavirus:

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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st March 2020, 04:20 PM   #408
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The weaponization of the coronavirus:
Nice report.

Trump's house of cards will crash in a heap when the virus takes hold, although they could claim Democrats brought it in and his faithful will lap it up.
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Old 1st March 2020, 04:29 PM   #409
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
You really need someone to lay out Trump's tack record with COVID-19? I though news was carried by means faster than tramp steamers these days.



Are we, like you seem to be suggesting, supposed to do a system-wide memory reset on every little thing Trump engages with? Assign all past behavior as null and void? Assume from the word go that real presidential handling could obtain?



I can't recall a single instance--or at least such are swamped by the sheer numbers--of other than idiotic bungling on all fronts with this man and his coterie of limpet-lipped enablers.
Trump has decimated the CDC years ago. It started there
.

The testing capability is woefully inadequate. Not enough kits, the first kits were fault and if you are tested you get a $2000 bill.
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Old 1st March 2020, 04:53 PM   #410
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If a serious pandemic were to take hold, and murmurings of discontent emanate from some fraction of the base, does anyone imagine for a moment that for Trump the buck would stop with him? Ha! Others would be to blame and heads roll. He has no conception of the Leader taking responsibility, because he never takes *personal* responsibility.

And most folk can suspect what Donnie might undertake for his political survival.
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Old 1st March 2020, 06:30 PM   #411
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The weaponization of the coronavirus:

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I wish Limbaugh would choke on his Medal of Freedom. Disgusting turd.
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Old 1st March 2020, 08:27 PM   #412
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
If a serious pandemic were to take hold, and murmurings of discontent emanate from some fraction of the base, does anyone imagine for a moment that for Trump the buck would stop with him? Ha! Others would be to blame and heads roll. He has no conception of the Leader taking responsibility, because he never takes *personal* responsibility.

And most folk can suspect what Donnie might undertake for his political survival.

The consensus has been that this is the whole reason he put Pence in charge of the problem. A convenient person to blame when it all hits the fan.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 01:46 AM   #413
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Evangelicals are given to believing that bad things are expressions of God's anger at the transgressions of heathens. If this virus makes sufficiently prevalent inroads, I only hope that those same hypocrites feel that their God is punishing *them* for their un-Christian veneration and hoisting to power of that truly Godless fake who worships only himself and lucre.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 04:29 AM   #414
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Evangelicals are given to believing that bad things are expressions of God's anger at the transgressions of heathens. If this virus makes sufficiently prevalent inroads, I only hope that those same hypocrites feel that their God is punishing *them* for their un-Christian veneration and hoisting to power of that truly Godless fake who worships only himself and lucre.
That never happens. People who think like that double down on their idiocy, they don't question it.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 04:38 AM   #415
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It seems to be working in Korea: Coronavirus: South Korea church leader apologises for virus spread (BBC News, March 2, 2020)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd March 2020, 04:44 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Nice report.

Trump's house of cards will crash in a heap when the virus takes hold, although they could claim Democrats brought it in and his faithful will lap it up.

The Democrats opposed his wall when they should have insisted that one be built that was so tall that airplanes couldn't get through to the USA.
And in Europe, they should never have made all those tunnels through the Alps ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd March 2020, 06:27 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
All true.

Sadly, all we can really do is wait and see what happens in order to determine if he did it right. Clearly, he isn't going to actually do it right himself, and surely Pence has no special knowledge to get it right, either, but it is conceivable that Pence is actually getting the right people to do something behind the scenes, and it will work, or that there really isn't much danger anyway. If not very many people die, then Trump gets credit. If not, he ought to get blame.

This is really a case where the President and only the President has the ability to make certain things happen. He really is in charge and he really is responsible for the outcome.


And that's scary.


However, if his response fails, he will lose the upcoming election, and we'll at least be rid of him at this time next year. I have no fear of any other outcome.
How much is the president really in charge in respect to the number of deaths and how much is it outside of any leaders control? We live in a relatively free country, people move around pretty freely, etc. Unless we want to change that the virus will run it's course.
Should we have immediately locked down all travel from foreign countries?
Do we want people forcibly locked in the homes like in China? Is this virus really that dangerous to warrant that? (I don't know but I doubt it).
People can be educated about how the virus is spread and what can be done to mitigate that, work can be done toward anti virals and towards a vaccine.

What is an example of a reasonable outcome for the US? 10 deaths, 100 deaths, 10,000 deaths. In the end wasn't the H1N1 virus responsible for over 10,000 deaths in the US? Unless the threat has been completely overblown how could the final toll be less than 1,000 even with the best of reactions? People were freely traveling from Wuhan and other places before the virus was really know but surely some travelers carried it to the US and it has been here for a while.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 06:29 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
The consensus has been that this is the whole reason he put Pence in charge of the problem. A convenient person to blame when it all hits the fan.
The consensus amongst who.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 06:32 AM   #419
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According to Trump he has total control, unless the Deep State stops him.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 06:50 AM   #420
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
The consensus has been that this is the whole reason he put Pence in charge of the problem. A convenient person to blame when it all hits the fan.
That describes everyone he hires for any position. Some have been obviously more competent than himself, well obvious to everyone but Trump himself.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 07:09 AM   #421
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
When it comes right down to it, he has done fairly well for himself.
Yep self made millionaire by the time he was three.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 07:30 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
The consensus amongst who.
Generally if you have to ask it wasn't aimed at you.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 07:33 AM   #423
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
The consensus amongst who.

A lot of the people here when the appointment was announced. I should have been more specific.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 12:38 PM   #424
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
How much is the president really in charge in respect to the number of deaths and how much is it outside of any leaders control? We live in a relatively free country, people move around pretty freely, etc. Unless we want to change that the virus will run it's course.
Should we have immediately locked down all travel from foreign countries?
Do we want people forcibly locked in the homes like in China? Is this virus really that dangerous to warrant that? (I don't know but I doubt it).
I don't know either. I can't call any epidemiologist in the country and ask them. How many people can be tested? How quickly? How many people should be tested? Do we need emergency spending, or suspension of regulation, or waivers of liability?

I don't know any of those answers, and I have no way to find those answers. Donald Trump has the way to find the answers.

I mentioned masks. Suppose in a few weeks, I need a mask, but no masks are available. Whose fault will it be? The answer is Donald Trump's fault. I won't look for a mask unless I need one. Donald Trump has, or can obtain, all the information he needs to determine whether there are enough masks and how to make sure they get to where they are needed. If there aren't enough, he can pick up the phone and tell the right people to make more, and make sure they are paid.

And if it is absolutely impossible to do that for some reason he has the ability to confiscate supplies so that health care providers have them, and quarantine people who can't be protected.

And I have no idea if that's even a good idea. What I know is that he has the data required to make the decision, and he is responsible for whatever he decides. That's what leadership means.

If he does no more than he has already done, and it doesn't cause a really large uptick in death rates, I'll be the first to praise his response.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 01:05 PM   #425
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
If he does no more than he has already done, and it doesn't cause a really large uptick in death rates, I'll be the first to praise his response.
Do you think its praise-worthy for the president to be misleading the American public about the dangers of a potential pandemic?
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Old 2nd March 2020, 01:21 PM   #426
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Do you think its praise-worthy for the president to be misleading the American public about the dangers of a potential pandemic?

Alan Derschowitz would think so: Trump lawyer Dershowitz argues president can't be impeached for an act he thinks will help his reelection (USAToday, Jan. 30, 2020)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd March 2020, 01:21 PM   #427
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Do you think its praise-worthy for the president to be misleading the American public about the dangers of a potential pandemic?
Not to defend Trump, but he's only doing what every other leader in the world is doing right now - trying to deflect the problem, because it still isn't impacting anything aside from air travel and tourism.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 01:47 PM   #428
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Do you think its praise-worthy for the president to be misleading the American public about the dangers of a potential pandemic?
I prefer to judge based on results. If his actions, or lack of them, work, I'll say he did ok.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 01:49 PM   #429
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And if the results are bad, I'll blame Trump....unless I'm dead.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 02:24 PM   #430
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I prefer to judge based on results. If his actions, or lack of them, work, I'll say he did ok.
How would you determine if a positive result is because of Trump’s actions or despite them?
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Old 2nd March 2020, 02:29 PM   #431
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
How would you determine if a positive result is because of Trump’s actions or despite them?
How will you?
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Old 2nd March 2020, 02:31 PM   #432
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
How will you?
Answering a question with a question is bad form.

If you would have asked me, my answer would have been, "I'll take all of the evidence available once we've contained the outbreak. I will then listen to experts in this specific field give their breakdown and make a decision at that point."
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Old 2nd March 2020, 03:02 PM   #433
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
How will you?
I can observe the actions of his administration and make an assessment based on that.

For instance, when they go in front of the nation and minimize the potential dangers with falsehoods and misinformation, it communicates incompetence.

Do you find it troubling that Trump and his administration have been doing that?
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Old 2nd March 2020, 03:34 PM   #434
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Not to defend Trump, but he's only doing what every other leader in the world is doing right now - trying to deflect the problem, because it still isn't impacting anything aside from air travel and tourism.
Every other leader in the world is lying about the problem? Nope.


And so I must ask: If it wasn't to defend Trump, just why did you make such an ignorant statement?

I'm curious.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 07:47 PM   #435
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Every other leader in the world is lying about the problem? Nope.
No, and the problem is all yours, because I didn't suggest anyone was lying. mainly because they don't need to. If you want to set fire to strawmen, try somewhere else is my advice.

The numbers right now aren't that high, so it's easy to pretend the problem isn't that bad. That won't be so easy to do when hospitals are overflowing and hundreds of people are dying daily in USA alone.

Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
I'm curious.
I don't believe you - I think you're desperate to use any attack you can on Trump, and as of right now, he isn't doing anything to be attacked for.

I would have thought that something that is about to become a national emergency deserved a non-partisan approach, but it's nice to see the other side is every bit as partisan as Trump's people.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 08:09 PM   #436
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
How would you determine if a positive result is because of Trump’s actions or despite them?
Likewise with a negative result. Is it because of, or despite Trump's actions?

Well, I suppose I would make some sort of effort to figure out which is which, but in the end, I probably won't have enough information. That's the point. I don't. He does. He owns the results. I'll judge based on them.


And not blindly. I'll try and figure things out, but sometimes you just have to judge the bottom line. It might not be fair, but so it goes.



And for what it's worth, I sure hope that a couple of months from now I'm praising Trump's actions, whether or not he deserves praise, because the alternative is a lot of dead people.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 08:11 PM   #437
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
No, and the problem is all yours, because I didn't suggest anyone was lying. mainly because they don't need to. If you want to set fire to strawmen, try somewhere else is my advice.

The numbers right now aren't that high, so it's easy to pretend the problem isn't that bad. That won't be so easy to do when hospitals are overflowing and hundreds of people are dying daily in USA alone.



I don't believe you - I think you're desperate to use any attack you can on Trump, and as of right now, he isn't doing anything to be attacked for.

I would have thought that something that is about to become a national emergency deserved a non-partisan approach, but it's nice to see the other side is every bit as partisan as Trump's people.

Except Trump is lying, blatantly, about the virus. He lied about the number of cases in the US. Lied that it was expected to go down. Lied and said it would go away with the warmer weather. Lied and said it was a Dem hoax. Half of those were while he was in the same room as experts giving the real information.

So if you didn't mean to suggest that other leaders were lying, then you were indeed ignorant of Trump's completely obvious and well documented in this thread lies.

Although other leaders, notably in Iran and China, have too lied about the virus. Great company.

Just because something is highly damaging for Trump doesn't mean it's not the truth, or is partizan. He often really is that bad, whether or not you want to believe it.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 09:05 PM   #438
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Except Trump is lying, blatantly, about the virus. He lied about the number of cases in the US. Lied that it was expected to go down.
Evidence for those, please, because I can't find any. He could easily have been confused on numbers - remember this is a bloke who thinks Belarus and Bangladesh are the same.

In terms of numbers going down, they will eventually. Again, it's hardly a lie so much a manifestation of his stupidity.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Lied and said it would go away with the warmer weather.
Bingo! Magnificent example of what I was saying about attacking at all costs.

You call it a lie when it might well be true. At worst, it's a mistake. Conventional wisdom and many scientists say it probably will fade in summer.

Are you going to roll over and admit to it if he turned out to be right? I bet you wouldn't.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Lied and said it was a Dem hoax.
And another.

That is not what he said at all - at no stage has he denied the disease exists or that it's a hoax. He even clarified what he meant by the hoax comment.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
So if you didn't mean to suggest that other leaders were lying, then you were indeed ignorant of Trump's completely obvious and well documented in this thread lies.
What a load of cobblers - but you have pwnd yourself perfectly.

And you guys wonder why people like cullennz laughs at you.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Just because something is highly damaging for Trump doesn't mean it's not the truth, or is partizan. He often really is that bad, whether or not you want to believe it.
You missed the point there, too - you guys are so consumed with hatred for Trump that you make stuff up to attack him.

I started a thread on his worst actions; there isn't any need to make **** up when you're as big a scumbag as Trump.

I think the desperate need to use your own lies to attack him says more about you than him.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 09:30 PM   #439
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
No, and the problem is all yours, because I didn't suggest anyone was lying. mainly because they don't need to. If you want to set fire to strawmen, try somewhere else is my advice.
But it's not a straw man. You literally said, "he's only doing what every other leader in the world is doing right now". Is that not what you meant? Because that's what you said. And it implies what I claimed it implies.

Quote:
The numbers right now aren't that high, so it's easy to pretend the problem isn't that bad. That won't be so easy to do when hospitals are overflowing and hundreds of people are dying daily in USA alone.



I don't believe you - I think you're desperate to use any attack you can on Trump, and as of right now, he isn't doing anything to be attacked for.

I would have thought that something that is about to become a national emergency deserved a non-partisan approach, but it's nice to see the other side is every bit as partisan as Trump's people.

Honestly, I meant it as an attack on you (not Trump) and your defense of Trump's lies about the coronavirus. Was I too subtle for you to catch that?

But you don't think Trump lying about the situation is worthy of being attacked for?

It's not partisanship to raise an alarm about incompetence and lies--It's just good sense. I only wish some people (for example: you) would pay more attention.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 09:44 PM   #440
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The defense that Trump just doesn't know better is much worse than him lying: he has literally access to the very best information available on the planet.
The fact that he chooses not to hear it or instantly forgets it is far more troublesome than him making a calculated decision to lie and omit for political gain.

Again: Trump ought to know this!
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