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Old 7th March 2020, 11:25 AM   #601
The Atheist
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Maybe at present, it is really too early to know what the true mortality figures are.
Sure it is. Which is why WHO, Trump and everyone else should shut up about it.

However, I'm pretty confident that SK's numbers will stay the same as long as they keep widespread testing.

When China had 7000 confirmed cases, there had been 170 deaths and 1700 serious cases.

The vast majority of cases are mild, and SK is proving that.

The weight of numbers will still be a problem for everyone, though.
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Old 7th March 2020, 11:33 AM   #602
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Why were they bad?
How did they help? Politicians squabbling while people get sick and die? What good does a remark like that do?


The governor's job right now is to do everything in his power to protect the citizens of his state and to do what he can for the rest of the nation and the world to help contain the virus, within the limits of his abilities.

If he truly felt compelled to correct the misstatements of Donald Trump, the right way to do it was to issue a sober sounding statement saying something along the lines of "Yesterday, the President of the United States made some comments regarding the coronavirus. It is important to note that the President was not speaking as an authority on disease transmission, and my administration feels it is important to make sure that people understand that his remarks should not be taken literally...."

And then proceed to address some more scientific facts, to make recommendations, and to ensure the people of Washington that the state government was not treating this situation as a normal event, but are putting their full effort to doing what they can within the limits of human ability, and that they want the help of the people of Washington to make their efforts successful.

In that way, he can use the President's remarks as a "teachable moment", an opportunity to make use of a public event to educate the public at a time when the public sorely needs some education.

Instead, public sniping. It might gain more political points, but it doesn't save more lives.

And that last part is the scariest part of the other virus that is infecting America. The fact that open hostility gains more political points than reserved criticism is a huge problem for the USA. We have met the enemy, and they are us.
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Old 7th March 2020, 12:10 PM   #603
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Why were they bad?

Do you deny that the Trump administration has been saying false and misleading things about the virus?

Or do you think we should all just stick our heads in the sand and ignore it when they do?
Trump does say stupid things but I donít think Trumpís statements have been that bad or that far from the truth.
Either way when Pence called the various governors to offer help that was not the time for him to announce he said that.
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Old 7th March 2020, 12:14 PM   #604
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Hmmm.....that one wasn't as widely reported. In the news stories about Trump calling the governor a "snake", it was implied that the governor had criticized Trump in the past.
Especially surprising that within a couple of days of his science remark his state had several deaths. If it had happened in a republican governors state the media would be all over it.
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Old 7th March 2020, 12:28 PM   #605
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Assuming the virus is as bad as it is made out to be the governor and my governor also (Cuomo) should not be making petty comments. The same goes for Trump.
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Old 7th March 2020, 01:07 PM   #606
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
How did they help? Politicians squabbling while people get sick and die? What good does a remark like that do?


The governor's job right now is to do everything in his power to protect the citizens of his state and to do what he can for the rest of the nation and the world to help contain the virus, within the limits of his abilities.

If he truly felt compelled to correct the misstatements of Donald Trump, the right way to do it was to issue a sober sounding statement saying something along the lines of "Yesterday, the President of the United States made some comments regarding the coronavirus. It is important to note that the President was not speaking as an authority on disease transmission, and my administration feels it is important to make sure that people understand that his remarks should not be taken literally...."

And then proceed to address some more scientific facts, to make recommendations, and to ensure the people of Washington that the state government was not treating this situation as a normal event, but are putting their full effort to doing what they can within the limits of human ability, and that they want the help of the people of Washington to make their efforts successful.

In that way, he can use the President's remarks as a "teachable moment", an opportunity to make use of a public event to educate the public at a time when the public sorely needs some education.

Instead, public sniping. It might gain more political points, but it doesn't save more lives.

And that last part is the scariest part of the other virus that is infecting America. The fact that open hostility gains more political points than reserved criticism is a huge problem for the USA. We have met the enemy, and they are us.
First of all, pointing out that the Trump administration has been spreading falsehoods and misinformation absolutely helps and potentially saves lives. That should be obvious on its face.

That you think everyone responding to Trumpís gross incompetence and childish petulance must adhere to some strict sense of decorum and protocol that clearly doesnít apply to Trump is bizarre.

Itís like if someone took a giant **** on your living room carpet and you just shrugged your shoulders and then complained that the people trying to clean it up arenít doing a good enough job.
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Old 7th March 2020, 01:17 PM   #607
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Something I've noticed is that, at every opportunity, Pence has to comment on how wonderful the response to Covid 19 has been "under the leadership of President Trump". It's like he's required to make sure that Trump is praised.
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Old 7th March 2020, 01:19 PM   #608
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Trump does say stupid things but I don’t think Trump’s statements have been that bad or that far from the truth.
Either way when Pence called the various governors to offer help that was not the time for him to announce he said that.
Trump and members of his administration have told outright falsehoods about the coronavirus.

You’re refusal to acknowledge it doesn’t change reality and clearly renders your judgment of what isn’t “that bad” laughably irrelevant.

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Old 7th March 2020, 01:20 PM   #609
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
That you think everyone responding to Trump’s gross incompetence and childish petulance must adhere to some strict sense of decorum and protocol that clearly doesn’t apply to Trump is bizarre.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if a state leader criticizing Trump found him retaliating by trying to delay or cut off federal aid for dealing with the disease.
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Old 7th March 2020, 01:21 PM   #610
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Something I've noticed is that, at every opportunity, Pence has to comment on how wonderful the response to Covid 19 has been "under the leadership of President Trump". It's like he's required to make sure that Trump is praised.
He probably is. This whole thing is being treated like a campaign opportunity by Trump.
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Old 7th March 2020, 01:23 PM   #611
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if a state leader criticizing Trump found him retaliating by trying to delay or cut off federal aid for dealing with the disease.
As long as that state leader responds in a measured and calm way and can turn it into a teachable moment, thatís just fine.
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Old 7th March 2020, 01:25 PM   #612
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
First of all, pointing out that the Trump administration has been spreading falsehoods and misinformation absolutely helps and potentially saves lives. That should be obvious on its face.

That you think everyone responding to Trumpís gross incompetence and childish petulance must adhere to some strict sense of decorum and protocol that clearly doesnít apply to Trump is bizarre.

Itís like if someone took a giant **** on your living room carpet and you just shrugged your shoulders and then complained that the people trying to clean it up arenít doing a good enough job.
They aren't cleaning it up. They're spreading it around.
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Old 7th March 2020, 02:07 PM   #613
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
They aren't cleaning it up. They're spreading it around.
Meanwhile, the guy who made the mess in the first place is in your bedroom about to give your bed the same treatment. Seems like that might be a more important thing on which to focus your attention.
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Old 7th March 2020, 03:22 PM   #614
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Something I've noticed is that, at every opportunity, Pence has to comment on how wonderful the response to Covid 19 has been "under the leadership of President Trump". It's like he's required to make sure that Trump is praised.
It will be in his contract....
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Old 7th March 2020, 03:28 PM   #615
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Meanwhile, the guy who made the mess in the first place is in your bedroom about to give your bed the same treatment. Seems like that might be a more important thing on which to focus your attention.
Personally, I'm focusing my attention on washing my hands a lot.

But each of us should be focusing on something productive. If I happened to be governor of a state, I would be focusing on getting accurate information to the people of my state. Tweeting "TRUMP SUCKS" doesn't really do that.



Well, I suppose that is accurate information, but it isn't useful information. It is either already known, or it will just be ignored, and make people more likely to ignore the governor in the future as well.
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Old 7th March 2020, 03:59 PM   #616
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It's not "Covid-19" or "Coronavirus" now. It's "Wuhan virus" according to Mike Pompeo and Fox News.
Linky
Linky
Linky

And going back to the original question, no, I don't think he'll use the virus to cancel the election or overturn the results. He'll definitely do that, but the excuse will all those millions of illegals voting.
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Old 7th March 2020, 04:46 PM   #617
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Breaking news on all the websites:A CINCPAC attendee has the virus......

I guess I should be sorry for the person but damn, it's hard...
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Old 7th March 2020, 05:19 PM   #618
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Breaking news on all the websites:A CINCPAC attendee has the virus......

I guess I should be sorry for the person but damn, it's hard...
CINCPAC is military; Commander in Chief, Pacific.

Mayhaps you meant CPAC...
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Old 7th March 2020, 05:34 PM   #619
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
CINCPAC is military; Commander in Chief, Pacific.

Mayhaps you meant CPAC...
Or AIPAC? Two attendees came down with the virus.
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Old 7th March 2020, 05:50 PM   #620
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Old 7th March 2020, 05:50 PM   #621
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
CINCPAC is military; Commander in Chief, Pacific.

Mayhaps you meant CPAC...
Yeah, I meant CPAC. Reading a new book on Admiral Nimitz, had CINCPAC stuck in my brain.
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Old 7th March 2020, 05:52 PM   #622
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Or AIPAC? Two attendees came down with the virus.
No, it's CPAC.All over the news websites,and apparently the infectee had perosnal contact with several high ups in the Trump adminstratin.

And Karma might be catchng up with some people.
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Old 8th March 2020, 02:43 AM   #623
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Sure it is. Which is why WHO, Trump and everyone else should shut up about it.
There's no harm in providing accurate information. The WHO's figure is accurate and has been properly contextualised by them. Giving people this information is literally a part of the WHO's job.

Trump shouldn't shut up about it, either. He's the president and addressing the American public about issues such as this is part of his job. What he shouldn't be doing, though, is downplaying the threat, contradicting the experts, and using it as an opportunity to boast about how clever he is, or to make political speeches.
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Old 8th March 2020, 09:36 AM   #624
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
There's no harm in providing accurate information. The WHO's figure is accurate and has been properly contextualised by them. Giving people this information is literally a part of the WHO's job.

Trump shouldn't shut up about it, either. He's the president and addressing the American public about issues such as this is part of his job. What he shouldn't be doing, though, is downplaying the threat, contradicting the experts, and using it as an opportunity to boast about how clever he is, or to make political speeches.

But since we know that he's incapable of doing anything other than that, it would be so much better if he'd leave it to the experts and shut up about it himself. (Which he's also incapable of doing, of course.)



ETA: In Denmark, the National Health Service now recommends that people refrain from shaking hands, kissing and hugging, i.e. abstain from almost all kinds of physical contact. Since social dancing, like salsa, for instance, entails all of those things, I chose to make salsa dancers in Copenhagen aware of the fact. Trying to find out more about how dancing in particular is affected by the new virus, I discovered some pretty creative ways of getting around the problem. See the YouTube video in the OP and the others in the third post after the OP.
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Old 8th March 2020, 09:47 AM   #625
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Personally, I'm focusing my attention on washing my hands a lot.

But each of us should be focusing on something productive. If I happened to be governor of a state, I would be focusing on getting accurate information to the people of my state. Tweeting "TRUMP SUCKS" doesn't really do that.



Well, I suppose that is accurate information, but it isn't useful information. It is either already known, or it will just be ignored, and make people more likely to ignore the governor in the future as well.
He didnít tweet ďTRUMP SUCKSĒ. He tweeted that the Trump administration needs to stick to the science and provide accurate information to the public.

The irony here is that if someone else had mischaracterized something Trump said so egregiously, youíd be one of the first people to scold them for it.
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Old 8th March 2020, 11:35 AM   #626
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
He didnít tweet ďTRUMP SUCKSĒ. He tweeted that the Trump administration needs to stick to the science and provide accurate information to the public.

The irony here is that if someone else had mischaracterized something Trump said so egregiously, youíd be one of the first people to scold them for it.
I don't think anyone, including you, would have mistaken my characterization as a quote. I also doubt anyone ought to have missed the point.


These two clowns are calling each other names and trying to score political points. Is one better than the other? Who cares?

Trump is going to say stupid stuff. That's not good. I think the word I used in this case was "disgusting". No one needs to follow his lead, even if they don't get all the way to "disgusting". Even if they are merely "counterproductive", that's still bad. I think Inslee's tweet was counterproductive.

He should have responded like and adult, and provided information instead of invective. He should have used Trump's misinformation as an opportunity to provide accurate information. Instead, he decided to post an information-free tweet attacking the President. Was his attack accurate? Yes. Who cares?


(Note: I, too, am calling both of them names. I can do that. I'm just some yokel posting on the internet. Trump and I have about the same level of credibility that way. That's very unfortunate.)
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Old 8th March 2020, 11:40 AM   #627
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Something I've noticed is that, at every opportunity, Pence has to comment on how wonderful the response to Covid 19 has been "under the leadership of President Trump". It's like he's required to make sure that Trump is praised.

It's a North Korean thing, I think.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th March 2020, 11:52 AM   #628
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(I hope no one objects that the specifics of the OP are kind of abandoned. I'm sort of using this thread as a generic "political implications of Covid-19" thread.)


Some time ago, it seems like weeks, but I suspect it was less, I noted that whatever happens, Trump gets the credit or blame. He can do things that no one else can.

So far, I'm unimpressed with the response. He did get funding through Congress. More than he asked for, so kudos to Pelosi and McConnell for that. However, what I don't see is a coherent response from the US government. In the Things That Affect Me department, I have been reading about event cancellations from FIRST Robotics this weekend, where events were cancelled in New Jersey and Washington. This was done with some degree of pressure from local officials. It's not clear to me that the local officials actually forced the cancellation, but it seems likely they did, at least in Washington.

Reading between the lines, it wasn't clear from the guidelines whether the events had to be cancelled or not. Meanwhile other, much larger, high school events went on as scheduled. (A high school basketball championship in Washington, and a state wrestling championship in New Jersey.) There's no way to make a case that the smaller events, which were cancelled, were a bigger threat than the larger events, which were not. It doesn't seem like there is a coherent answer to be found in the guidelines.

On the other hand, South By Southwest was cancelled. That's a really big deal. Should it have been? Probably, but the point is that there shouldn't even be a controversy or pressure on a local official. The mayor should be able to point to a set of guidelines and be able to say, "Based on these recommendations, we must reluctantly cancel the festival." As it is, the local mayor had to make that call, and be the one to be second guessed by all the people who will be harmed economically by that decision.

Again, it's possible there is a lot going on behind the scenes, but I have this feeling that it really is just a theoretical possibility. I have no confidence at all that, behind the scenes, anyone in the Trump administration is making things work.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 8th March 2020 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 8th March 2020, 02:49 PM   #629
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
(I hope no one objects that the specifics of the OP are kind of abandoned. I'm sort of using this thread as a generic "political implications of Covid-19" thread.)

I think we all do, so let's agree to do so.

In Denmark, the health authorities are rather open about the chances of putting a stop to the virus: Nil! They are very frank about the impossibility of doing so, at this point. It seems as if we're all going to get it sooner or later. The strategy seems to take aim at postponing it and slowing down the spreading of the disease to the extent that hospitals will still be able to cope by taking care of the most severe cases.
However, they have already run into the problem of scarcity of some the stuff they need to do the testing, and in the present situation, it's probably no surprise to anybody that the manufacturers of the stuff can't keep up with the sudden demand ...
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Old 8th March 2020, 03:43 PM   #630
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The strategy seems to take aim at postponing it and slowing down the spreading of the disease to the extent that hospitals will still be able to cope by taking care of the most severe cases.
That's a very sensible option, but the example of China & South Korea show containment is possible and governments shouldn't give up on the idea.

NZ's government is just turning a blind eye to it, so I'll let you know how that works out. Right now, even Trump's nonsense looks pretty good to us.
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Old 8th March 2020, 04:18 PM   #631
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post


These two clowns are calling each other names and trying to score political points. Is one better than the other? Who cares?
First Question: Yes

Second Question: Lots of People

Seriously, dude: If you needed to ask you ain't even paying attention.
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Old 8th March 2020, 06:30 PM   #632
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't think anyone, including you, would have mistaken my characterization as a quote. I also doubt anyone ought to have missed the point.
If thatís the case, then why not just stick to what Inslee actually said?

Quote:
These two clowns are calling each other names and trying to score political points. Is one better than the other? Who cares?
What name did Inslee call Trump?

Quote:
Trump is going to say stupid stuff. That's not good. I think the word I used in this case was "disgusting". No one needs to follow his lead, even if they don't get all the way to "disgusting". Even if they are merely "counterproductive", that's still bad. I think Inslee's tweet was counterproductive.

He should have responded like and adult, and provided information instead of invective. He should have used Trump's misinformation as an opportunity to provide accurate information. Instead, he decided to post an information-free tweet attacking the President. Was his attack accurate? Yes. Who cares?


(Note: I, too, am calling both of them names. I can do that. I'm just some yokel posting on the internet. Trump and I have about the same level of credibility that way. That's very unfortunate.)
The lengths you go to create a false equivalence between Trumpís behavior and Insleeís kind of undercuts all of this moral posturing.
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Old 9th March 2020, 12:50 AM   #633
dann
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
That's a very sensible option, but the example of China & South Korea show containment is possible and governments shouldn't give up on the idea.

NZ's government is just turning a blind eye to it, so I'll let you know how that works out. Right now, even Trump's nonsense looks pretty good to us.

Based on what I've read, I would say that the virus hasn't exactly been contained in China and South Korea. On the contrary, it seems to be all over the place. What they're doing there at this point also seems to be a question of slowing it down, which is probably all they can do at this point.

Today they closed down a high school in central Copenhagen. Last week, a student who had been to Italy for the winter holidays (February 8 to 16) was sent home to self-quarantine, and this weekend two more students turned out to be infected, so after consultations with the National Health Service, the principal told all students to stay home.
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Old 9th March 2020, 06:40 AM   #634
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
So, explain to me why she was fired:
1) because she dared to call in sick or
2) because she then went to work when she was told to or
3) because when she got to work, she was sick like she said in the first place?

Bosses don't like to fire people for no reason. They then have to find a replacement which entails having to interview people and likely being short-handed until they find someone.
She was sick so he already had to find coverage just get rid of the headache. Being absent from work will get you fired no matter the reason in many jobs.
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Old 9th March 2020, 10:37 AM   #635
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Based on what I've read, I would say that the virus hasn't exactly been contained in China and South Korea.
44 new cases in China, down from thousands a day, says they have it fairly well under control. SK's numbers are still increasing, but they certainly have a handle on it better than anyone, plus they're testing infinitely more people than anyone else, so the fact the numbers are growing so slowly says it's fairly well contained.

If the entire world followed SK's protocols, there wouldn't be a coronavirus problem.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
She was sick so he already had to find coverage just get rid of the headache. Being absent from work will get you fired no matter the reason in many jobs.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:05 AM   #636
dann
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
44 new cases in China, down from thousands a day, says they have it fairly well under control. SK's numbers are still increasing, but they certainly have a handle on it better than anyone, plus they're testing infinitely more people than anyone else, so the fact the numbers are growing so slowly says it's fairly well contained.

I'm not sure how they're counting. Do they actually count the new cases inside the contained areas? It sounds very unlikely to me, but ....
Or do they just count the new ones outside the contained areas?

Quote:
If the entire world followed SK's protocols, there wouldn't be a coronavirus problem.

And if the entire world followed NK's protocols, we'd all be contained!
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Last edited by dann; 9th March 2020 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 9th March 2020, 12:37 PM   #637
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I'm not sure how they're counting. Do they actually count the new cases inside the contained areas? It sounds very unlikely to me, but ....
Or do they just count the new ones outside the contained areas?
All new cases.

SK seems to be testing everyone who had any contact whatsoever with a positive, or people who have had contact with a positive.

That's why their mortality & severe case load is wildly below everyone else's.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
And if the entire world followed NK's protocols, we'd all be contained!
There's fairly good evidence they have it, but sure as hell not saying. Their death rate will be phenomenal, when you factor in the terrible general health of the population and the abysmal lack of facilities for anyone not called Kim Jong-Un.
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Old 9th March 2020, 05:44 PM   #638
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Coronavirus.

We've seen this scam before with global warming. It's just a way to divert more taxpayer money to egg-head virusologists. People are panicking, running around like the world is on fire while President Trump calmly swings his five iron.
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Old 9th March 2020, 05:55 PM   #639
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Coronavirus.

We've seen this scam before with global warming. It's just a way to divert more taxpayer money to egg-head virusologists.
I've been saying since Ebola that Big Virusology would be creating more of these outbreaks to get rich off of the people.
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Old 9th March 2020, 06:24 PM   #640
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Coronavirus.

We've seen this scam before with global warming. It's just a way to divert more taxpayer money to egg-head virusologists. People are panicking, running around like the world is on fire while President Trump calmly swings his five iron.
Thank goodness we have President Trump to keep us all calm during the Corona Hoax! People are saying that playing golf is a natural antiseptic and kills the virus. It's a beautiful thing! Beautiful!
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