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Old 26th March 2020, 11:00 AM   #1921
Baylor
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
And yet other posters seem to understand perfectly what I meant.

Perhaps the problem is with your abilities of comprehension.
You made this bizarre post:
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
No matter how much Trump attempts to chip away at the freedoms they claim to cherish, there will always be conservatives who defend what he does.

Why, it’s almost as if this whole “loving freedom” thing is just a smokescreen for their true agenda.

And just a few points about the truly terrible argument being made to defend Trump on this issue:

1) The article being criticized is factual. It never claimed that habeas corpus couldn’t or has never been suspended, only that the Trump administration was potentially attempting to do so.

2) If Obama tried this, the same poster defending Trump here would be screaming bloody murder.

3) You would think someone posing as an authority on the subject and attacking other posters would actually know how to spell “habeas corpus”.

I asked you what the hell you were talking about, even to whom you were referring in the hi-lited part.
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I literally have no idea why you think this rant is in any way relevant to my post.


What the **** are you even talking about? What conversation are you reading? Who "defended Trump" and who ever "screamed bloody murder" over anything Obama ever did? What conversation are you having? Who are you even taking to?

I'm being serious. Are you okay?
Instead of answering the question, you said you would answer the question but never did. Then went on to say your points were "clearly and rationally articulated," despite it being ambiguous to whom you were referring.
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
The only one ranting here is you.

My points were clearly and rationally articulated.

Let me know which ones in particular confused you and I’ll try to explain them in simpler terms, the same way I demonstrated to you the correct spelling of “habeas corpus”.
You still haven't answered the question like you said you would, despite saying you would explain after being asked to explain.

Last edited by Baylor; 26th March 2020 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 26th March 2020, 11:11 AM   #1922
Travis
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I'm stuck in my house and for two hours a day they decide to livestream Trump dumping his ignorance and bluster all over an unsuspecting microphone like it is a Miss Teen USA contestant. Sometimes I just feel like I'm stuck in the worst possible timeline.
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Old 26th March 2020, 11:27 AM   #1923
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
My opinion? You're drawing stupid conclusions based on nothing but your own ignorance.

Spain and Italy have a fraction of the population of the US but more than 3 and 7x's the Covid-19 related deaths? France also has a fraction of the population and more deaths.

What stupid conclusions about Obamacare do you want to draw about that?
Spain, Italy and France also have a much more densely packed population than the US which is a major factor in the spread of the virus resulting in more cases and thus more deaths.

Population per square kilometer:

US: 35.77
Spain: 91.4
France: 122.34
Italy: 205.45
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Old 26th March 2020, 11:31 AM   #1924
Ivor the Engineer
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Yes. And the president of Mexico is actively encouraging people to hug each other. So, without any doubt, you think Mexicans are dumb.

Nice bait and switch.
Link?
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Old 26th March 2020, 11:37 AM   #1925
Blue Mountain
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I'm stuck in my house and for two hours a day they decide to livestream Trump dumping his ignorance and bluster all over an unsuspecting microphone like it is a Miss Teen USA contestant. Sometimes I just feel like I'm stuck in the worst possible timeline.
Have you considered turning off the TV?
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Old 26th March 2020, 11:41 AM   #1926
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I wonder why the free-market hasn't destroyed this disease. That invisible hand is more invisible these days...
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Old 26th March 2020, 11:43 AM   #1927
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
By the end of today, we will pass France in deaths, and we will pass everyone, including China, in confirmed cases.
But I doubt France will pass us in population.
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Old 26th March 2020, 11:52 AM   #1928
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
In the grand scheme of things, you are correct. Far better to fix a problem than to blame someone.

However, the first step in fixing a problem is acknowledging a problem exists. Not only did Trump not recognize the existence of the problem when it became obvious, he seems to still not acknowledge it, and judging by his popularity numbers, the American people also don't realize that this happened. I guess we'll see in the coming days.

Beaumont Hospital network, Detroit's largest, said they were running out of ventilators yesterday.
I agree. But it is not like Trump is alone in downplaying or being ignorant of what was coming. Seems a large number of countries across the globe had the same thing happen by their government heads.




Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Where does the buck stop? If not with the President, then why bother having one?
Yup, I agree. But replacing him doesn't magically make the fundamental issues solved. Pointing out his flaws should relate to the things HE has to do differently NOW. Those I don't mind at all. Point out that his tariffs also targeted medical equipment we need for the current crisis, and could have caused some level of lowered purchases as buyers were waiting it out. That's direct.



Originally Posted by Ivor the Engineer View Post
Trumps big, beautiful words and actions are actively leading to the deaths of even more US citizens.

Yes, it is easy to blame him.
His words would lead to deaths either way. Most likely more with his current rhetoric but it's not like putting a positive spin is something new to the presidency. He was more optimistic than cautious. If he went too far the other way and there was too much panic we would be dealing with separate issues now as well.
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Old 26th March 2020, 11:56 AM   #1929
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Is this deaths as of today, or deaths at comparable points in their respective timelines? If it's the former, then it's meaningless. Most graphs are tracking deaths since 10 or 25 deaths in each respective country.
Excellent point. I started with the assumption the virus would start circulating in Canada and the US at the same time, because both countries see a fair bit of international travel from the affected regions (China and Europe.)

After some research I found the US confirmed its first case on January 21 on the west coast. Canada's first confirmed case was four days later in Toronto on January 25. However, in the American case the person had been in the States since January 15, while the Canadian case had arrived the same day. So it's possible the virus had been in the US for a full ten days before Canada. For something that doubles every two and a half days, those ten days are very significant.

What's more noticeable, though, is the first death. In the US that happened on January 29, only eight days after the first confirmed case. In Canada the first death was five weeks later on March 9.

The best conclusion I can draw is Canada is at least 10 days behind the US curve. That could certainly account for the difference in the "expected" US deaths (8.7◊ Canada's) vs actual (currently running at 30◊ Canada's.) The way I see it, the ratio gap should widen briefly over the next few days, then suddenly start to contract as Canada starts seeing a upswing in deaths due to the time lag, while at the same time the curve is starting to trend down in the US.

Of course, we won't know the final numbers until the emergency is over.
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Old 26th March 2020, 12:36 PM   #1930
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Keep in mind that many of the 'experts' can easily be divided into 2 categories:
- people that are incompetent toadies that Trump has appointed, or that Trump gets advice from anyways
- People that are largely powerless because Trump doesn't listen to them


Well, OK, lets look at the 'foundation' of the problem.

1) The U.S. government needs better information. Like perhaps people directly working with foreign governments who can provide information to warn people of risks like Covid19.

Wait, they had that in China... a scientist embedded with the chinese center for disease control, but Trump cut the position
So a single person would have uncovered everything? Could we spread the blame on China a bit here. Did we offer assistance that they didn't accept? Lie and downplay? Surely any person embedded would have been easily kept from the facts there as well.


Quote:
2) The U.S. government needs to be able to coordinate with foreign governments to help limit the spread of diseases and better utilize resources

Wait, the Trump administration attempted to cut funding to the CDC, which would have limited the government's ability to deal with diseases in foreign countries. (Plus, Trump's "America First" rhetoric has poisoned their ability to coordinate with other nations.)
Yup. Trump can't talk about the CDC's funding not dropping when it was against his budget proposal. We also can't point to his proposal as causing an issue when it never was used. The CDC wasn't gutted. There response has not been something I would applaud.


Quote:
3) The U.S. needs to be open and transparent, so that problems can be exposed and people have the best information possible.

Wait... Trump has made many of the meetings regarding coronavirus secret.
So there is nothing you can think of that would require secrecy? Is there something specific you feel isn't being shared? I honestly don't think Trump has the power to hide too much as it is. If there are things they are hiding to save face, I hope it comes out. Otherwise I am not sure which meetings are secret and what you feel they are hiding from us.




Quote:
4) The government needs to be honest so people have the best information possible.

Wait... trump regularly spreads falsehoods and misinformation

Here's the thing... the problem would have affected the U.S. regardless.. but almost everything Trump has done has either been ineffective or made things worse.
And I am fine with any criticism that is actually within his control, as long as it is representative of his actual impact. I am seeing way to many issues throughout the response line that needs addressing. We need to actually look at them and not deflect to the familiar target.



Quote:
While that certainly sounds reasonable, do you have a reference to that particular article?
Not sure which one I originally read it on, but found this - Bloomberg article

Quote:
The national stockpile used to be somewhat more robust. In 2006, Congress provided supplemental funds to add 104 million N95 masks and 52 million surgical masks in an effort to prepare for a flu pandemic. But after the H1N1 influenza outbreak in 2009, which triggered a nationwide shortage of masks and caused a 2- to 3-year backlog orders for the N95 variety, the stockpile distributed about three-quarters of its inventory and didnít build back the supply.
Just looking at the numbers from their stockpile then and their current stockpile, it's obviously not been refilled or sustained. It's worrisome that an event that caused the depletion of that stock didn't resonate enough to even get it back to the levels it began at before that pandemic.

Companies seemed to have planned for a surge capacity for an event like this, but we didn't even give ourselves a head start by increasing our stock pile, knowing the issues the last pandemic caused. When taxpayers are on the hook for 10x the cost just for the items themselves during this crisis, not to mention the obvious economic and human loss from not being prepared, you would hope the cost analysis will ******* change next time.
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Old 26th March 2020, 12:51 PM   #1931
johnny karate
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
You still haven't answered the question like you said you would, despite saying you would explain after being asked to explain.
Your inability to recognize sarcasm aside, something about your charming attitude tells me that your interest is less than sincere, so I wonít bother.
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Old 26th March 2020, 01:12 PM   #1932
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
But I doubt France will pass us in population.
Depends on how bad the epidemic gets, but none of the models make such a prediction.
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Old 26th March 2020, 03:05 PM   #1933
Darat
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Mod Warning This thread has evolved into a general Trump & Covid virus thread so I'm closing it as there other live alternative threads covering the same content. Feel free to repost content from this thread to an ongoing thread when it is on topic and appropriate to do so.
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