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Tags David Gilroy , murder cases , Scotland cases

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Old 23rd January 2017, 03:52 PM   #401
Garrison
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Surely an innocent man would be only too eager to tell the police exactly where he was and what happened that afternoon? But he never did. He clammed up and did a "no comment" to just about everything.

He's as guilty as hell.
Really? From reading a lot of these threads it appears the one piece of advice that every suspect should follow is keep your mouth shut, get a lawyer and only answer questions if they tell you to. A police interrogation is not some neutral discussion, the police will apply a myriad of tactics to obtain an admission of guilty, or something that can be interpreted to that effect. Also it's down to the police to produce actual evidence of guilt, not rely on a failure of the suspect to prove their innocence.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 06:30 PM   #402
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Are you familiar with the specific circumstances of this case? Normally I would agree with you, but this is a situation where the behaviour of the suspect was strikingly odd. By the time it got to court an innocent person should, following lawyers' advice, have been able to explain where he was and what he was doing that day. Gilroy almost defiantly clammed up and dared the police to find something incriminating.

I think he believed that if only he could conceal the body so well that it was never found, he couldn't be charged with murder no matter how strong the circumstantial evidence was against him. He was wrong about that.

This isn't eating pizza or buying underwear or doing a little twirl when putting on overshoes. It's manufacturing a pretty threadbare excuse to drive off into the middle of bloody nowhere the day after his ex-girlfriend vanished from the face of the earth, and taking about four hours longer to complete the return journey than that journey would normally take. It's about his car suspension being wrecked and the underside of the car covered in earth and vegetation.

I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who is familiar with all the details of this case who still thinks Gilroy wasn't guilty beyond reasonable doubt, and more so from anyone who thinks he actually didn't murder Suzanne.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 11:20 PM   #403
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In an interesting in some ways SIMILAR New Zealand case John Barlowe was convicted after an epic 3 trials of killing a father and son team of money lenders.
My best understanding is that indeed he did not do the killing, but hired an Australian hitman, so he could be interviewed eloquently saying

"it might look like me but it wasn't."

The antique gun he supplied was found in a rubbish tip because he inadvertently kept the receipt and the plods found the gun .

ETA if I am misunderstood, the point is simply that he was being a clever dick like Gilroy, constructing a perfect crime and throwing down the gauntlet. I am trying to keep this relevant for the usual reasons.
Similarly, 3 trials is hard to stay the journey, as is getting to an actual consideration by a review commission.

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Old 24th January 2017, 06:21 AM   #404
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I don't think Gilroy was being a clever dick. I don't think he planned the murder for one second. I think the pair of them were at the flyting when he completely lost it and throttled her in the heat of the moment. He was then faced with a body disposal problem.

He managed remarkably well on the day of the murder itself, when he got Suzanne out of central Edinburgh in the boot of his car without anyone realising. The following day, however, his hastily-dreamed-up plan to lose her body somewhere in the wolds of Argyll on the pretext of a prior appointment nobody but he had any record of didgo so well. He managed to conceal her body, but his actions were so incriminating that he was convicted anyway.
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Old 24th January 2017, 12:03 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
didgo* so well.

*didn't go
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Old 24th January 2017, 05:42 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I don't think Gilroy was being a clever dick. I don't think he planned the murder for one second. I think the pair of them were at the flyting when he completely lost it and throttled her in the heat of the moment. He was then faced with a body disposal problem.

He managed remarkably well on the day of the murder itself, when he got Suzanne out of central Edinburgh in the boot of his car without anyone realising. The following day, however, his hastily-dreamed-up plan to lose her body somewhere in the wolds of Argyll on the pretext of a prior appointment nobody but he had any record of didgo so well. He managed to conceal her body, but his actions were so incriminating that he was convicted anyway.
Well yes, I see it was a kind of crime of passion then.
The Scott Watson case in New Zealand is still hot as hell, with no bodies, if it was him there could be no conceivable plan because the pair were unexpectedly short of beds on a boat at 4 am. And how do you sink two bodies with no spare metal weight on a 26 foot boat?
This is being aggressively appealed at RPOM now, 20 years on.
He has a big support network, but I still remain open on the case.

I guess it is a start to disappear bodies, but not the whole answer.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 12:59 PM   #407
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It's been a while but.....

David Gilroy, 49, must serve a minimum of 18 years in jail for killing 38-year-old bookkeeper Suzanne Pilley. (from 2012 to 2030)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-17754517

And as of 02/06/2107
Review of David Gilroy's murder conviction closed
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-40138467

It seems that he has exhausted all options therefore he will leave prison when he is 67 years old.

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Old 4th June 2017, 11:51 AM   #408
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Thanks for that, it had escaped my attention. I wonder if he'll fess up to where he dumped the body now? I suspect sadly not, and not until this is affecting his chance of parole.
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Old 1st November 2017, 08:21 AM   #409
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The Tyndrum camera.
We know that Gilroy was caught on camera at Tyndrum at 13.23 and again at Inveraray at 15.51.
It is possible that shortly after passing Tyndrum at 13.23, Gilroy did a U turn and drove back towards Crianlarich.
If this happened there should be another image of Gilroy's vectra passing Tyndrum going south east towards Crianlarich but this was not found/reported.
If the camera is on the west side/driving side of the road in Tyndrum and points north east towards the Green Welly then Gilroy's car rear number plate would be pictured as he drives towards the junction of the A82 and A85 to get to Inveraray via the A819.
If Gilroy did a U turn shortly after 13.23 north of the camera's range and passed the camera again driving back towards Crianlarich then the camera would see Gliroy's front number plate, but if after making this U turn Gilroy was driving close to a large vehicle when passing the camera, hiding his car's front number plate, then it is possible that although the police would see a silver vectra driving towards Crianlarich they would not be able to verify the number plate, therefore the police could assume that Gilroy dd not do a U turn and continued on to Inveraray via the A85 and A819.
At 13.23, or shortly after, assuming Gilroy did a U turn, probably at the junction of the A82 and A85, and drove back to Crianlarich, then Gilroy arrived at Crianlarich about 13.30 at the junction of the A85 and Best Western hotel, the A82 bypass had not been completed in 2010, It is realistic to assume Gilroy did not do another U turn and pass Tyndrum again on the way to Inveraray as his car's rear number plate would have been picked up on camera passing Tyndrum.
It is a guess where he went when he reached Crianlarich - here's my guess.
The time would be 13.30 and Gilroy is passing Crianlarich on the way to Tarbet,
Gilroy arrived at Inveraray at 15.51, the time difference is 2 hours 21 minutes, or 141 minutes, it takes just 62 minutes drive from Crianlarich to Inveraray via Tarbet and the Rest and be Thankful.
There are 79 minutes, or 1 hour and 19 minutes, missing, in which Gilroy could have turned left at Tarbet and drove down the west side of Loch Lomond and he could have driven to the Drymen area in this time.
Drymen is near Queen Elizabeth forest park. (previously I mentioned that Gilroy's car had vegetation from Queen Elizabeth forest lodged underneath it)
As shown in http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Queen_Elizabeth_Forest_Park
"Its forests include Achray Forest, Buchanan Forest, Strathyre Forest and Loch Ard Forest."
Strathyre forest, Achray forest and Loch Ard forest are not possible to drive to within the timescale Gilroy had if he did do a U turn at Tyndrum
With the timescale Gilroy had he can get to Buchanan forest and still pass Inveraray at 15.51.
Pass Tyndrum camera 13.23
U turn 13.24
Arrive Buchanan forest 14.35
Stay Buchanan forest 14.35 to 14.42 (his car gathers some Queen Elizabeth forest vegetation on the way) this is only 7 minutes but it is possible
Leave Buchanan forest to Royal Burgh Cafe Inverary 14.42 to 15.51
Buchanan forest is here https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.07.../data=!3m1!1e3
and here https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/get...orest-stirling
There are 95 total excess miles taken during this trip and if you add in a 30 mile round trip to the Rest and Be Thankful he could have made at night then then this is quite near to explaining the unaccounted fuel usage of 124 miles.

Last edited by NightOfTheDemon; 1st November 2017 at 08:32 AM. Reason: TIDY UP
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Old 1st November 2017, 02:37 PM   #410
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Disregard the last paragraph - still working on it.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 04:11 PM   #411
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I know that area slightly. (Long story. A pony I was in love with when I was a child was sold to a family living on the Buchanan estate and I pursued him to his new home.) It's relatively manicured. Not somewhere I would imagine as a good place to dump a body.)
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:19 PM   #412
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I know the area very well.

"Gilroy arrived at Inveraray at 15.51, the time difference is 2 hours 21 minutes, or 141 minutes, it takes just 62 minutes drive from Crianlarich to Inveraray via Tarbet and the Rest and be Thankful."

There is a shorter route via the A85 west and then down the A819. That is the more obvious way to go.

"Drymen is near Queen Elizabeth forest park. (previously I mentioned that Gilroy's car had vegetation from Queen Elizabeth forest lodged underneath it)"

That made me think of the Achray Forest drive, a road open spring to autumn that cars can use;

http://scotland.forestry.gov.uk/fore...s-forest-drive

I have not followed the thread, so don't know if that is of much use.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:25 PM   #413
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Really? From reading a lot of these threads it appears the one piece of advice that every suspect should follow is keep your mouth shut, get a lawyer and only answer questions if they tell you to. A police interrogation is not some neutral discussion, the police will apply a myriad of tactics to obtain an admission of guilty, or something that can be interpreted to that effect. Also it's down to the police to produce actual evidence of guilt, not rely on a failure of the suspect to prove their innocence.
I would only speak to the police to make it clear innocent until proven guilty and a lack of trust means even as innocent, I was not prepared to answer questions. I would even apologise for doing that, so making myself appear reasonable with a non suspicious reason for not answering them.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 02:05 PM   #414
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I know the area very well.

"Gilroy arrived at Inveraray at 15.51, the time difference is 2 hours 21 minutes, or 141 minutes, it takes just 62 minutes drive from Crianlarich to Inveraray via Tarbet and the Rest and be Thankful."

There is a shorter route via the A85 west and then down the A819. That is the more obvious way to go.

"Drymen is near Queen Elizabeth forest park. (previously I mentioned that Gilroy's car had vegetation from Queen Elizabeth forest lodged underneath it)"

That made me think of the Achray Forest drive, a road open spring to autumn that cars can use;

http://scotland.forestry.gov.uk/fore...s-forest-drive

I have not followed the thread, so don't know if that is of much use.

One major problem is that we have no idea where he was when he was off the radar so to speak. The police were very interested in Hell's Glen and Glen Croe, but the newspaper report that his phone had pinged a tower near the Rest And be Thankful seems to have been false and we don't know why they pursued that lead other than the story that Gilroy seemed to be trying to steer the questioning away from there.

I think the estimates of how many extra miles the car had gone were based on petrol consumption, but that varies wildly depending on where and how the car is driven. Low gear work on steep forestry tracks would soon burn up a lot of fuel, as would revving the engine while trying to get the car out of a ditching situation, for example when the suspension was broken. Given that he would have spent time getting the body away from the road and concealing it in some way, he didn't have a lot of time for extra detours. It's not impossible he didn't detour significantly from the obvious route but spent time on difficult tracks where his petrol consumption was high.

Another problem is that the Queen Elizabeth Forest Park is huge. It hasn't been reported exactly where in the park the soil and/or vegetation that was identified was supposed to have come from. It's far from homogeneous - there are maps where I work showing the soil type and composition for the whole of Scotland to a fairly detailed resolution and there's a lot of variation across the Trossachs. I imagine the cops know, but then why concentrate on Hell's Glen which isn't in the QEFP?

The possibility that he could have gone through Tyndrum where he was caught on camera but then turned around some way past the village and not been picked up on his way back is interesting and sounds quite possible. One wonders why he would have done that though. It's as if he was heading for Lochgilphead but then had a brainwave idea of where to go and turned around. Which fits the impression that the journey and the plan were not well thought out.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 02:13 PM   #415
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I would only speak to the police to make it clear innocent until proven guilty and a lack of trust means even as innocent, I was not prepared to answer questions. I would even apologise for doing that, so making myself appear reasonable with a non suspicious reason for not answering them.

That's all very well in the first instance, but at some point you are going to have to come up with a coherent story. Imagine the conversation with your solicitor. "I am completely innocent and they won't be able to prove anything against me but I will not tell you or anyone else where I was and what I was doing during that time when I was completely innocent." It's not a good look.

At his appeal the judge commented that if it hadn't been for the sketchy story he told when he was first questioned (which was non-incriminating) his defence would have had nothing at all to say apart from falling back on the presumption of innocence. However, Gilroy tried to overturn his conviction on the grounds that he should have been cautioned before he gave that statement and he wasn't. (He's probably right about that, but it doesn't seem enough to justify overturning the conviction.)

It's pretty self-evident that an innocent man would be able to describe to the police exactly where he went and what he did on that day. Even if natural distrust caused him to clam up when he was first questioned, after he has had the chance to go over it all with his legal advisors he should have a coherent narrative to present. Gilroy never attempted it. It's my belief he thought he couldn't be convicted if the body wasn't found, so no matter how suspicious his behaviour, if he succeeded in hiding it he'd be fine.

He was wrong about that of course.
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Old 4th November 2017, 04:08 AM   #416
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I would tell my solicitor and we would then have a discussion about what we will tell COPFS as per disclosure rules.

An innocent person may still not want to reveal what they were doing at a certain time, as it involves something else, nothing to do with the crime, which they do not want the police to know about.

I am not saying that is the case with Gilroy. From what I have read, he was doing his best to hide evidence so there would not be enough to convict him.
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Old 4th November 2017, 02:42 PM   #417
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I could imagine that an innocent person might still want to conceal what they were doing, but they would have to balance that against the likelihood of being convicted of murder if they persisted in saying nothing. I think the jury is entitled to make their own assessment of what's going on if an accused person persists in refusing to provide any story at all about where they were during an incriminating period. And as you say, in the case of Gilroy the conclusion comes down to "hiding the body" without any reasonable doubt.
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Old 4th November 2017, 04:02 PM   #418
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We now have exact petrol consumption variability after the Lundy case. It seems that the most desperate driving as in on a racetrack consumes a full 3 times as much petrol as the most careful driving, and this is independent of car model or engine. This works for petrol, diesel may be different. This is critical in the Lundy case, and the judges do not need to be mathematicians this time, they have been delivered the inescapable, but could still legally ignore the information. But they must write this up and show their workings.
I don't know if this could help in Gilroy.

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Old 4th November 2017, 04:09 PM   #419
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I would tell my solicitor and we would then have a discussion about what we will tell COPFS as per disclosure rules.

An innocent person may still not want to reveal what they were doing at a certain time, as it involves something else, nothing to do with the crime, which they do not want the police to know about.

I am not saying that is the case with Gilroy. From what I have read, he was doing his best to hide evidence so there would not be enough to convict him.
This was a classic problem for Lundy, his alibi, which he could not know would be needed, was that he was with a prostitute 100 miles from the crime scene. He still languishes in jail with no public sympathy. This is seen as the careful preplanning, clearly not possible for Gilroy.
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Old 4th November 2017, 05:43 PM   #420
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
It seems that the most desperate driving as in on a racetrack consumes a full 3 times as much petrol as the most careful driving, and this is independent of car model or engine. This works for petrol, diesel may be different.

Bear in mind that Gilroy's car's suspension was broken and the underside of the car caked in earth and vegetation. It's likely he grounded the car somewhere and it may well have been stuck. He could have been revving the engine in a panic trying to free the stuck car, and covering precisely zero miles as he burnt up a lot of petrol.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 03:00 PM   #421
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"but then why concentrate on Hell's Glen which isn't in the QEFP?"

The police should have found vegetation from the Loch Lomond and Trossachs national park on the underside of his car if he went off road in the Hell's Glen and Glen Croe area.
Maybe Gilroy did go to the Hell's Glen and Glen Croe area but did not go off road.
If Gilroy wanted to divert attention from another area his plan could have been
to go to the Hell's Glen and Glen Croe area and make sure he was seen.
Witnesses then contact police advising they saw a man in a suit acting suspiciously near a sliver car in the Hell's Glen and Glen Croe area.
This prompts the search in the Hell's Glen and Glen Croe area whilst diverting
attention from the actual disposal site.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 07:36 AM   #422
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The problem is that he wasn't off-system for all that long. Time can pass very quickly when you're trying to do something like concealing the body of a strapping, healthy young woman who may have weighed around 150 lb.

He had to get to the place where he concealed the body, and he actually had to conceal it. We've looked at a number of possibilities and it's not a straightforward operation. To postulate that he also went somewhere else to lay a false trail, in that limited time, is a bit far-fetched to me. I'm not sure he was thinking all that coherently about the main operation, let alone working out how to lay a decoy trail.

It seems to me that we have so little definite information about his movements that the whole thing becomes guess and speculation. Presumably the CCTV sightings are reliable, as is his attendance at Lochgilphead in the late afternoon, but I don't think we have anything else. The sighting of the suspicious silver car may very well not have been him. No registration number was reported for that car. The vegetation evidence may not be reliable - I simply don't know how much weight one can put on that.

I still think Glen Aray hasn't had the consideration it warrants.
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Old 4th January 2018, 12:43 AM   #423
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Gilroy could have been cleaning the car of all traces of the body (which he successfully did as no trace of Suzanne was found in the car boot) when he was spotted in the Glen Croe forest area in the afternoon or when he was spotted near Ben Donich in the evening.
If Gilroy drove from the junction of the A819 and A83 at Inveraray to here
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.17...7i13312!8i6656
Then drove on Donich Park, which is a road with numerous potholes, he could be heading for the eastern side of Loch Goil to look for a disposal site.
Then on the way back to Inveraray after disposal he stops just off the B828 here
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.22...7i13312!8i6656
and cleans the car boot of all traces of the body as he does not want to clean the boot
at the disposal site in case he gets seen and a police search ensues.
He has time to do this and return to Inveraray in both the missing time periods
The forest around Lochgoilhead has never been mentioned as a search area
but Creag Chaise looks promising
https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/...20,-4.89463,17

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Old 4th January 2018, 04:07 PM   #424
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We don't know for sure that was actually him either time though, do we?

I thought Lochgoilhead was too far to be a reasonable location given the time needed to drive there and still leave time to find a suitable site, hide the body, and clean the car. It's also a long dead end which I don't think I'd want to go down if I was trying to keep my options open.

But I need to think through what you've just suggested. It's interesting.
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Old 12th January 2018, 02:51 PM   #425
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In order to get to Creag Chaise you would have to drive on the Cowal Way walking route.
A more likely disposal site would be Inveronich.
Drive from the B839 on the potholed suspension breaking road called Donich Park
for 0.2 miles and you arrive at Inveronich.
(Google street view of Donich Park was recorded in July 2011)
The image shows a road going through Inveronich leading to a forest which could be the disposal site.
https://postimg.org/image/8a1uzgtz7/
Image taken from Canmore website
https://canmore.org.uk/site/search/r...TRY=0&view=map
Find Lochgoilhead then Inveronich then click aerial photography and zoom in.

Last edited by NightOfTheDemon; 12th January 2018 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 12th January 2018, 03:23 PM   #426
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Interesting.
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Old 1st February 2018, 12:48 AM   #427
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Assuming Gilroy did go to Inveronich between 13.23 and 15.51 during the journey between Green Welly Tyndrum and Royal Burgh Cafe Inveraray.
It took him 2 hours and 28 minutes to drive a 36 minute route. (based on average reconstruction time) between 13.23 to 15.51 = 148 minutes = 2 hours and 28 minutes.
148 minutes less 36 minutes leaves 112 minutes.
From the junction of the A819/A83 to the junction of Donich Park/Inveronich takes 30 minutes each way.
112 minutes less 60 minutes leaves 52 minutes for disposal.
Assuming Gilroy went to Inveronich between 18.58 and 21.08 during the journey between Royal Burgh Cafe Inveraray and Green Welly Tyndrum.
It took him 2 hours and 10 minutes to drive a 35 minute route .(based on average reconstruction time) between 18.58 to 21.08 = 130 minutes = 2 hours and 10 minutes.
130 minutes less 35 minutes leaves 95 minutes.
From the junction of the A819/A83 to the junction of Donich Park/Inveronich takes 30 minutes each way.
95 minutes less 60 minutes leaves 35 minutes for disposal.
In the afternoon he has 52 minutes and in the evening he has 35 minutes.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg inveronich.JPG (53.8 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg inveronich 3.JPG (41.6 KB, 1 views)

Last edited by NightOfTheDemon; 1st February 2018 at 01:00 AM.
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Old 3rd February 2018, 08:29 AM   #428
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Where do you think the damage to the suspension is likely to have happened, in that scenario?
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Old 3rd February 2018, 12:04 PM   #429
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The screenshots from Google earth show the condition of Donich Park as of July 2011.
Driving at speed on this road could cause suspension damage due to the amount of potholes.
Donich Park was resurfaced in September 2015.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg donich park 1.JPG (60.9 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg donich park 2.JPG (68.1 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg donich park 3.JPG (70.1 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg donich park 4.JPG (50.4 KB, 5 views)
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Old 5th February 2018, 04:26 PM   #430
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Go fast enough and that could do it, for sure.

I still think it's a long way off the direct route. If I'd been in his shoes I'd have wanted to stray as short a distance as possible from a plausible route to Lochgilphead, not just to maximise the time available to conceal the body, but to avoid the chance of my car being spotted somewhere absolutely incriminating.
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Old 17th June 2018, 01:11 PM   #431
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Apparently this case featured in Crimewatch last week. Did anybody see it?


https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...ppeal-12691680
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