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Tags David Gilroy , murder cases , Scotland cases

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Old 11th September 2016, 01:19 PM   #361
NightOfTheDemon
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More pics of gate, rack beyond gate and logs.

I have reached image upload limits so have hosted the other pictures of the gate, track and the tree felling on these links
gate
https://postimg.org/image/6q4cbrfdh/
https://postimg.org/image/x6iv7a1md/
https://postimg.org/image/o4i516wp1/
track beyond gate
https://postimg.org/image/m6ghcsl4f/
https://postimg.org/image/u02r4ikn7/
logging area
https://postimg.org/image/3qv852tf7/
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Old 11th September 2016, 01:43 PM   #362
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Return journey ?

The most probable site is past the unlocked gate and I didn't have enough time to get in amongst the trees and vegetation.
At least the most probable disposal site has been identified.
The gate had a thick black cable tie joining two of the links and by coincidence Gilroy received cable ties from Lochgilphead High School.(allegedly)
Did he break a cable tie on the afternoon journey and disposed of the body past the gate then returned with a cable tie in the evening to secure the chain with the cable tie ?
It is possible although it was over six years ago.
I will return to the gate and the track beyond and get in amongst it, don't know when but hopefully before the winter.

Last edited by NightOfTheDemon; 11th September 2016 at 01:46 PM. Reason: allegedly
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Old 12th September 2016, 04:12 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by NightOfTheDemon View Post
The most probable site is past the unlocked gate and I didn't have enough time to get in amongst the trees and vegetation.
At least the most probable disposal site has been identified.
The gate had a thick black cable tie joining two of the links and by coincidence Gilroy received cable ties from Lochgilphead High School.(allegedly)
Did he break a cable tie on the afternoon journey and disposed of the body past the gate then returned with a cable tie in the evening to secure the chain with the cable tie ?
It is possible although it was over six years ago.
I will return to the gate and the track beyond and get in amongst it, don't know when but hopefully before the winter.

Jeez, I'd forgotten that! That's pretty important.

I identified that particular gate as the entry to the most promising body disposal site simply by perusing the largest-scale OS map of the area and double-checking on Google Streetview. I was a bit thrown by the gate, but these gates aren't necessarily impregnable (pony trekking experience here). The trick might be to get past it without leaving evidence that you'd done it. (Riders don't usually worry about the hoofprints and so on!)

So it seems likely there was an easy way in simply by cutting a cable tie that was joining a broken chain. Or it's that way now and could easily have been that way six years ago.

It seems that he went off-road on the way to Lochgilphead, as he was complaining about something being wrong with his car when he was at the school. So if he did go in there, we assume he cut the cable tie in the afternoon. I would also assume that he didn't finish the body disposal job to his satisfaction at the time because it doesn't take two hours to divert to Hell's Glen and replace a cable tie and he was off-radar for two hours in the evening as well.

He needed a cable tie to repair the one he cut. So while at the school he blags black bin bags from the staff and the cable ties come with the package. Stop worrying about what he wanted the bin bags for and concentrate on the cable tie.

He must have gone back in in the evening though, and maybe he worsened the damage to his car at that time. And he replaced the cable tie on the way out. It's unlikely anyone would have noticed it being broken for a period that was only a few hours. The gate probably isn't in frequent use.

You could be on to something here.

Did you notice anything else about the cable tie that's there now? Did you photograph it? Is it the entire tie, or has the free end been trimmed off? I ask because I know a lot of these ties have serial numbers on them that are intended to allow identification of fly-tippers if bags tied with the numbered tags are found in unauthorised places. It would be really useful to know if there's any sign of a serial number on the tie that's there now.
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Old 12th September 2016, 04:26 AM   #364
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I assume the police did include that area in their search but never assume the police always have the bases covered. I still regret not contacting Crimewatch about the search for Anne Locke in 1986. She was murdered a short walk from where I was working at the time and I was familiar with the area. I may have been wrong about her return train journey route, but the gist of my theory was that she may have been murdered much further south, nearer Potter's Bar station than Brookman's Park. I didn't contact the programme as I assumed the police would be looking there anyway. I didn't remember that the county boundary between Hertfordshire and London Metropolitan ran half way between the two stations. The search originally stopped at the boundary. She was found weeks later, after the Crimewatch programme, when they finally decided to extend the search into the Metropolitan territory. If I'd said something, maybe they would have done that sooner.

And the less said about the incompetent farce that was the Lockerbie investigation the better, and we're talking Scottish police there. I admit I have had a lot of contact with Police Scotland recently about that and they inspire a lot more confidence now, but still, nobody's perfect. The area in Argyll they potentially had to search was huge and they didn't have the manpower that was drafted in after Lockerbie. If some questionable decisions were made when trying to narrow it down, I wouldn't be hugely surprised.
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Old 12th September 2016, 06:30 AM   #365
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I've had a look at the cable ties at work and they actually have our postcode stamped on them. It's in white on the black plastic so it's fairly obvious, but still, would someone in a hurry necessarily notice? It's not right at the clip end, it's about 3 inches out from that (measuring to the centre of the stamp), but you wouldn't be able to make much of a loop and still be able to cut it off with the spare end.

I also noticed a bunch of much larger orange ties lying around, apparently originating from the knackerman. These have actual serial numbers and these are stamped right beside the clip.

My colleague remarked that not all cable ties have an identifying number or code, he has plenty at home that don't. But given the purpose of the codes I would imagine that cable ties used in a school to secure rubbish bags would have them. That's exactly the situation they're meant for. To prevent cowboys offering a cheap deal to remove the institution's rubbish and then just fly-tipping it.

The postcode of Lochgilphead High School is PA31 8AA. If that had been stamped on the ties Gilroy was given, would he have noticed? Would he have realised the significance? It would be possible to remove the printing before the tie was used, but only by hard scraping with a sharp knife or something like that. There would certainly be evidence that the tie had been a bit mutilated.

There's no guarantee the tie that's there now is still the one Gilroy put in place, if indeed he did that, but there's a fair chance it is. If that tie has PA31 8AA stamped on it, we've got him. Even if there's just evidence of a serial number being scraped off, it's worth telling the police.
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Old 12th September 2016, 12:13 PM   #366
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Unfortunately I only took three close up pictures of the padlock and chain at the gate.
These are gate 1,2 and 3 photos in my previous post.
Or
https://postimg.org/image/6q4cbrfdh/
https://postimg.org/image/x6iv7a1md/
https://postimg.org/image/o4i516wp1/

I am now quite annoyed with myself I didn't take a photo of the black cable tie joining two of the chain links and I think there was a stamp engraved into the cable tie on the part that you loop the teeth into.
On the part of the cable tie where the arrow points in this picture.

https://postimg.org/image/da1np238l/

I think the engraving did have a number 3 and some other numbers in it but I don't remember the rest of the numbers or if there were any letters.
I know this is vague but I didn't consider the relevance of the engraving at the time and with hindsight I should have.
The cable tie has been tightened around the chain link and the free end has been cut.
I would estimate the cable tie thickness to be between 10mm and 15mm.

This makes another Lochgoilhead trip more urgent in order to verify the engraving and take photos.
I will pass by this Friday and have a good look and take close up pictures.

One thing that puzzles is that the chain has been broken twice.
Once where the cable tie joins the chain link that was once broken and the other as in this picture.
https://postimg.org/image/o4i516wp1/
The cable tie is situated four links up from the padlock and the chain is broken four links down on the opposite side of the padlock.
The first chain link break must have been made by bolt cutters or similar then cable tied back together.
If someone wanted to open the gate after this they would only have to cut the cable tie and not have to cut another chain link to gain access.
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Old 12th September 2016, 12:38 PM   #367
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I also took some more photos of the track beyond the gate

This one is a metal drainage channel running across the track
https://postimg.org/image/d57qp16pn/

This one is where the track narrows and it becomes more likely that a car would not get out of this.
https://postimg.org/image/lsppwdwc3/

There are places on the track a car would be able to make a U turn for an easier exit back down the track and out of the gate.
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Old 12th September 2016, 01:52 PM   #368
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It's perfectly possible the police thought of all this and followed it up at the time. On the other hand we can't assume they thought of everything. Do you know where his car was seen parked, by the way? I would have thought he wouldn't have wanted to stop any more than he had to because he didn't want to be seen anywhere east of Inveraray, so if he was seen then the location could well be significant.

The lettering or numbering on the tie is crucial and unless it's the post code of a neighbouring farm or the forestry people I think it's imperative it's reported to the police. Even if it doesn't link to the school the combination of Gilroy getting cable ties that afternoon and a cable tie jury-rigging a broken chain securing the gate to a really evil-looking part of Hell's Glen could be significant.

Quote:
One thing that puzzles is that the chain has been broken twice.
Once where the cable tie joins the chain link that was once broken and the other as in this picture.
https://postimg.org/image/o4i516wp1/
The cable tie is situated four links up from the padlock and the chain is broken four links down on the opposite side of the padlock.
The first chain link break must have been made by bolt cutters or similar then cable tied back together.
If someone wanted to open the gate after this they would only have to cut the cable tie and not have to cut another chain link to gain access.

It puzzles me too, but bear in mind that it's now more than six years on from the murder. Further damage could have been done in the intervening time. It certainly seems that the gate wasn't secure at all when you got there, and if that was the case in 2010 then Gilroy wouldn't have needed a cable tie in the first place. The police could always speak to the forestry workers about the condition of the chain, when it was broken, when it was mended and so on, even if they haven't already.

I wonder whether there was a cable tie already there which he cut and had to replace (bloody good luck for him if that was the case) or whether it was actually possible for him to have broken a link of the chain. It looks quite strong and I wouldn't care to try, but then I couldn't move a body the weight of Suzanne Pilley either. I wonder if a car tool-kit might have something in it that could be used as a sort of jemmy. Tyre lever?

I'm wondering if he actually planned quite carefully the night before, but was using a paper OS map which he had from hill-walking in the area and so didn't realise about the gates on the tracks. They're not marked on the OS map for some reason, maybe because the tracks aren't public roads. In any case, Streetview didn't go down that road till 2011 so he'd have had no way to know about the gates even if he did dare use his computer.

So he gets there and finds these gates he wasn't expecting, then has to improvise. The cable ties became necessary to re-secure the chain, and he had to get them in Lochgilphead because he hadn't anticipated that part.
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Old 12th September 2016, 01:56 PM   #369
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Great that you can go back so soon. I was actually mulling over the possibility of going myself if you couldn't, but as I said it's a good two hours each way. Some good close-ups of the cable tie and in particular the numbering or lettering on it are really needed here.

If it does happen to be PA31 8AA (OK, really unlikely but stranger things have happened) the police need to know about it.
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Old 13th September 2016, 08:20 AM   #370
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I spoke to my colleague at work who deals with the waste disposal logistics and he says the cable ties we have on the shelf were supplied by our previous clinical waste disposal company because they liked to keep a handle on what had come from where. As I said, the ones from the knackerman have serial numbers rather than a post code.

My colleague says there's no requirement, but you can order the things with anything you like printed on them, even your name. Various companies and institutions identify the tags for various reasons - flytipping, or inappropriate material in the bags and so on - and use their own system.

So it's not at all unlikely that cable ties sourced from a school would have something on them that could trace back to the school. Not necessarily a post code, but something. If that tie has some lettering on it, it will be interesting to see what it is.
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Old 13th September 2016, 02:40 PM   #371
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Quote:
Do you know where his car was seen parked, by the way? I would have thought he wouldn't have wanted to stop any more than he had to because he didn't want to be seen anywhere east of Inveraray, so if he was seen then the location could well be significant.
Can't find any specific information about where his car was seen, the reports only mention the search areas in Glen Croe and Hells Glen, it could be assumed that the police would only conduct such a massive search of the area based on specific sightings rather than calculated guesswork and these specific sightings must have been from witnesses who the police considered reliable after speaking to them.

Quote:
I wonder whether there was a cable tie already there which he cut and had to replace (bloody good luck for him if that was the case)
That would have made his access to the track much easier and only leaves the problem of how does he put the chain back together......Lochgilphead High School will have some.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is possible that on 5th May 2010 Gilroy approached the gate and snapped one of the chain links to gain access to the track.(or snapped a cable tie linking two of the chain links which is easier)
Gilroy then disposed of the body and when exiting the gate realised that someone may notice the chain had been broken.
Gilroy collected cable ties from Lochgilphead High School and returned to the gate and secured the chain with a cable tie.
The chain now looks complete - as if the chain was never broken.

If the chain was snapped by a fly-tipper then they would not have gone to the trouble of putting a cable tie on the chain link, they would have dumped the rubbish and not cared about the chain on their way out.

The chain would only be cable tied by someone who cared enough about leaving no evidence that the chain had been snapped.

The police searched the area in May 2010 and again in August 2010 and if they didn't look closely at the chain they would not have seen the cable tie.
They could have assumed that the chain was always complete and had not been broken at any time.
Therefore the police thought that Gilroy could not have accessed the track beyond the gate and the area was ruled out of the search.
(someone has since snapped the chain on another chain link and the link has not been rejoined - could have been fly-tippers)

Unfortunately the police have previous experience of overlooking the obvious.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...tland-37019949

If the cable tie has numbers and/or letters on it when I visit the gate on Friday I will report this to the police and they can hopefully trace the origin of the cable tie.

If the cable tie has no numbers/letters on it then I don't think the police will get involved.

I will take close up pictures and post them on Friday when I return.
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Old 13th September 2016, 03:14 PM   #372
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Oh dear. I wasn't aware of that one.

The guy I asked about the cable ties (while half-inching a couple to fix my Yes saltire to a cane for the indymarch on Sunday) has both been a policeman and worked in forestry, and his wife used to work beside Suzanne Pilley. He said, surely the police checked all the gates at the time and were up all these tracks. I said, you'd think so, but it's such a huge area to search that they could have been in the right neck of the woods (literally) and still missed her.

He also thinks they'll find her when the relevant bit of forest is logged out. Which could be decades, depending on the age of the trees there. There are also some bits that are so steep they're treeless and I even wonder whether you could conceal a body in a crevasse there and it would be less likely to be searched.

I think you're right, if there's nothing on the cable tie it's too tenuous for them to divert manpower to it at this stage. I wonder how common forestry gates with cable ties holding a broken chain is in that area though.
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Old 16th September 2016, 11:19 AM   #373
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The cable tie is marked C H S 1

The marking is on the part that can be cut,
photo here
https://postimg.org/image/jre6qmgnd/
and here
https://postimg.org/image/nq5s4krrv/
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Old 16th September 2016, 11:27 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by NightOfTheDemon View Post
The cable tie is marked C H S 1

The marking is on the part that can be cut,
photo here
https://postimg.org/image/jre6qmgnd/
and here
https://postimg.org/image/nq5s4krrv/
Looking at your pictures, I would seriously doubt that entire gate is 6 years old, and the cable tie I would be sure was put on this year. Scotland is a fairly unforgiving climate and things get damaged relatively quickly.
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Old 16th September 2016, 12:10 PM   #375
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The Google earth street view picture of the metal gate and surrounding fence was taken in July 2011

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.22...7i13312!8i6656

It differs from my picture taken in September 2016

https://postimg.org/image/4izic71b5/

The wooden fencing at either side of the gate has been replaced between 2011 and 2016.

Walking the track beyond the gate again today, it does not seem that driving on the track would cause much if any car suspension damage.

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Old 17th September 2016, 10:05 AM   #376
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I can't see the Streetview image clearly enough to see if it's the same gate. I'm sometimes surprised by how well these things last though. On the west, not high up, sheltered by trees, I don't know. But then you'd expect the wood to become greened by the closeness to the trees. I think you're right that the wood has been replaced since 2011. In which case the cable tie is unrelated to the murder.

It's still an interesting idea about why he wanted cable ties.
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Old 17th September 2016, 12:23 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by NightOfTheDemon View Post
The Google earth street view picture of the metal gate and surrounding fence was taken in July 2011

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.22...7i13312!8i6656

It differs from my picture taken in September 2016

https://postimg.org/image/4izic71b5/

The wooden fencing at either side of the gate has been replaced between 2011 and 2016.

Walking the track beyond the gate again today, it does not seem that driving on the track would cause much if any car suspension damage.
Just to clarify my post, I meant that the gatepost in your picture looked fairly new. The metal gate itself may or may not have been reused, but has been removed and rehung, so anything associated with it is almost certainly nothing to do with the murder.
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Old 17th September 2016, 02:56 PM   #378
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More questions than answers

Moving on from the Hell's Glen area , does anyone have any suggestions as to why Gilroy drove from Tyndrum (21.08) on the way to Corstorphine Police Station, 28 Meadowplace Road, Edinburgh via the A82 south and not the A85 east then the A84 south.
If driving east from Crianlarich on the A85-A84-M9 route he would have driven 77 miles.
By driving south from Crianlarich on the A82 and then going east on to the A811 at Balloch to Corstorphine Police Station, 28 Meadowplace Road, Edinburgh Gilroy drives 96 miles.
Gilroy drove 19 miles more than were necessary to reach Corstorphine Police Station, 28 Meadowplace Road, Edinburgh.
Any ideas why Gilroy would take this route ?
Why, when he arrived at Crianlarich did he turn right instead of going straight on ?
This weblink shows the route the police think he took during 5th May 2010
http://www2.jpscotland.co.uk/en/webchat/map1.jpg
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Old 18th September 2016, 02:53 PM   #379
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That's been exercising my mind since you pointed out that he'd done that.

I knew he went back to the south of Loch Lomond and because of that I assumed he actually returned via the Rest and Be Thankful rather than Tyndrum-Crianlarich. I had formed the impression that his earlier detour was because he'd only just thought of that area as being a good place to hide the body, while driving his usual route to Lochgilphead, and so he took a detour back. Then he realised he'd spent too long there and would be late at the school so he went on to Lochgilphead, returning by the direct route to complete the job.

You have persuaded me that the whole thing was planned rather than ad-hoc panic. That he deliberately tried to give the impression that he had driven the Tyndrum-Crianlarich route there and back and so had gone nowhere near the Rest and Be Thankful. However, I can think of no sensible reason to turn south at Crianlarich on the way back. As you say it adds miles to the journey, and it also takes him really quite close to the very area he's been trying to pretend he hasn't been near.

I mean, if he really was mucking around somewhere near the Rest and Be Thankful in the evening on the way back, and had it in mind to return via Tarbet and Balloch, just look at the length of the detour involved to pass through Tyndrum and Crianlarich. And in a car with suspension so badly broken that it was described as "virtually undrivable". It's absolutely bonkers.

The only reason to double back through Tyndrum would be to give the impression of never having been anywhere near Ardgarten or Arrochar, and in that case the way to go from Crianlarich is straight on east towards Strathyre and Loch Lubnaig. And yet he turns south for Ardlui, meaning he passes within a couple of miles of Arrochar. I totally do not get it.
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Old 19th September 2016, 06:00 AM   #380
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The shortest route from Crianlarich to Inveraray is via Tyndrum (32 miles) as opposed to Crianlarich to Inveraray via Tarbet (40 miles) so it makes sense to go via Tyndrum
if you are going directly to Inveraray.

But if the plan all along was that he would drive to Glen Croe that afternoon then he would have been quicker going from Crianlarich to Inveraray via Tarbet (40 miles)
as he passes Glen Croe on the A83 anyway.

His total mileage was about 70 miles (32 miles from Crianlarich to Inveraray via Tyndrum then 19 miles each way from Inveraray to Glen Croe and back)

He drove a total of 70 miles when he could have opted to drive 40 miles.

This indicates that Glen Croe was not his first choice for the disposal site.

The route he actually took from Tyndrum to Inveraray going west along the A85 then south on the A819 indicates that this route was near his first planned disposal site.

When he got to his preferred disposal site he must have realised that it was unsuitable and before he knew it he was approaching Inveraray with a body in his boot and he coudnt risk going to Lochgilphead yet.
So he goes east at the junction of the A819 and the A83 towards Glen Croe.

Gilroy was now behind schedule and must have quickly hidden the body and planned to return that night to do a better job.

It must have been an elaborate misdirection when Gilroy switched his phone on at Ardlui at 21.34 but why bother switching it on at all, just tell the police his version of events and get them to disprove it.
Gilroy was really determined not to be linked to the Glen Croe/Hells Glen area.

The tracks around Glen Croe and Hells Glen that I have visited are used by hikers and cyclists and most have locked gates and the tracks are maintained.
In order to damage a cars suspension the disposal site needs to be accessed along a route that is in extremely poor condition (unavoidable potholes,
rocky terrain and thick vegetation) an area that a four wheel drive Landrover driver would think twice about driving over.
The forestry tracks may not be the entry route to the disposal site and there may not be an obvious entrance, it could be an area where it is almost impossible to drive a car.

It may take a while but still looking.
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Old 19th September 2016, 09:08 AM   #381
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Bear in mind he was starting from Edinburgh, not Crianlarich. If you ask the AA for a route from Edinburgh to Lochgilphead without any pre-conditions it takes you along the M8 to Glasgow and across the Erskine bridge. I don't think anyone would go that way because of the danger of getting held up in Glasgow city centre. You just need some idiot to prang a bumper on the Kingston bridge and you're in an interminable queue. But it shows the practicality of going south of Loch Lomond.

If I was going to the Rest and Be Thankful from Edinburgh I think I'd go across through Drymen to Balloch and up the side of Loch Lomond to Tarbet. If I was going to pass north of Loch Lomond I'd go from Crianlarich to Tyndrum and then down to Inveraray from the north. I don't think the road from Tarbet to Ardlui would feature at all, though I may be missing a trick there.

But if we assume he did go to the Glen Croe area he made it through Tyndrum before heading there. He could have doubled back after Tyndrum, retraced his route to Crianlarich, and gone through Ardlui and Tarbet of course. But he apparently wasn't seen to double back on the Green Welly CCTV, and by the time he's got to about Dalmally the double-back wouldn't be as sensible as going on and turning left at Inveraray. So we assume he did the latter.

The question is, was this intentional from the start, aiming to go to the Glen Croe area but making it look as if he hadn't been anywhere near there, or was he making it up on the hoof? I thought the latter, then reading what you posted I inclined towards the former. Either is possible. He had the whole night to plan.

I thought Glen Aray might be a good place to stash a body but when I looked at it on Streetview it wasn't so promising. And gated tracks again. If Gilroy often drove that way to Lochgilphead he would probably have realised it wasn't all that suitable. Bear in mind another place the police apparently considered was Glen Orchy, though I don't know if he was seen there. And the only promising-looking track I can see is again gated - https://goo.gl/maps/exrZez9P3nM2. (He'd soon wreck his suspension on that, if he could even drive it.)

Did he try other places to no avail then suddenly decide to head for Glen Croe even though it was a detour, or was that in his mind all along and the detour deliberate to confuse any later investigation?

If we assume that he dumped the body on the way there (the "trouble with my car" suggests he did) then there was no aimless wandering on the way back. He would know where he was heading to complete the job.

So why did he take that very peculiar route back? One that doesn't go over the Rest and Be Thankful but nevertheless takes an apparently pointless detour to go quite close?
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Old 20th September 2016, 01:30 PM   #382
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The Google street view image of the gate and track on the B8074 at Glen Orchy looks like it would cause suspension damage to a car but it is unclear if the gate is locked or not.

Looking again at the search area on the map (which is marked with small squares) http://www2.jpscotland.co.uk/en/webchat/map1.jpg
Hells Glen, Glen Croe, Glen Shira, Glen Orchy and from Furnace to Lochgilphead along the A83 were all searched but according to the map there were no searches made along the A819.

Going north from the junction of the A819 and A83 at Inveraray the first turn on the left goes past the police station.
But the second turn on the left is more interesting
This picture is of a road which leads from this turn and could cause damage to a cars suspension
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4441146
Which is accessed from the A819 and along Upper Ave then onto Queens Drive. Google map here
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/56...e3!4m2!4m1!5i1
The tracks beyond "the very rough road through Eas a' Cḥsain" are possible disposal sites.
Athough it is unclear from the maps if any part of the tracks are gated or not.

Assuming the disposal was done in the afternoon (which is more likely as if not the body is in the boot when Gilroy gets to Lochgilphead High School.)
On the way from Tyndrum to Lochgilphead in the afternoon Gilroy could have diverted into "the very rough road through Eas a' Cḥsain" from the A819 before returning to the A819 then passing Main Street East in Inveraray where he was caught on camera and where he switched his phone on.
and/or
On the way from Lochgilphead to Tyndrum in the evening Gilroy could have passed Inveraray where he was caught on camera and where he switched his phone off and went on the A819 then turned towards "the very rough road through Eas a' Cḥsain"

Still trying to work out where the Glen Croe/Hells Glen area fits into this scenario.

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Old 22nd September 2016, 01:47 PM   #383
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Did they not search Glen Aray at all then? I would have thought that was one of the obvious possibilities once you know he disappeared for two hours between Tyndrum and Inveraray. I don't think it's as promising as all that, for most of the length, but it's not out of the question either.

That's a bit of an off-the-wall idea, that he went all the way to Inveraray and then snuck up a back road behind the town. It's a horrible road and I wonder what its advantage is over other more practical routes. Also, I wonder if he knew it was there.

Also, the route you mark, if he took that, would potentially avoid his being caught on the Inveraray CCTV at all. Unless he doubled back to go along the loch-front road.

There are just so many possibile places. And I still wonder how strong the evidence was that he was in the Glen Croe area at any point. If the story about his mobile pinging the Glen Croe mast isn't true, it can't be 100% certain he was even there. Surely the evidence must have been led in court and if it was an eyewitness then they would have appeared to give evidence, but there's nothing in the court reports about that.
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Old 26th September 2016, 03:01 AM   #384
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Found the information regarding the phone call to police whilst Gilroy was at Lochgilphead and about the damage to Gilroys car.

Paragraph 21 here
http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup...method=boolean
" He had arrived there (Lochgilphead) at about 4.30, when he had noticed the voice mails asking him to contact the police. He had phoned his office and spoken to a policeman for, he thought, more than an hour. By this time, he had also observed that there was something wrong with his car."

This matches his arrival at Lochgilphead 16.29 and confirms the damage to his car was done on the Tyndrum (13.23) to Inveraray (15.51) route.
Also paragraph 23
"At about 4.30 am (on Thursday 6th May), the appellant's car keys had been obtained from him and, with the appellant's consent, the Vectra, which was in a Tesco car park, was searched at about 4.55 am before being removed to a yard for further examination commencing at about 10.50 am. "

Gilroys car was searched at 04.55 on Thursday 6th May whilst he was still in the police station so Gilroy must have cleaned the boot at some point on Wednesday 5th May 2010 before 21.24 (when he passed Ardlui).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back to the A819 here

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.25...7i13312!8i6656

The track leads into dense forest and is in poor condition compared to other forest tracks in the area.

Still looking further north from this track on the A819 for any other possible A819 exit points on to tracks in poor condition before my next trip.

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Old 27th September 2016, 01:33 PM   #385
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I see that. It does look promising, and it's not gated as the other roads I looked at in Glen Aray are. I was looking further north than that I think.

Is that the only non-gated entrance to that forest area?

It's not just the forest, the undergrowth in the areas that are only covered by bushes is very thick. There's a lot of scope even for just dumping a body if there wasn't time to dig, and as you say unless he had brought old clothes to change into it doesn't look as if he did much digging. Unless a dog happened on it and led someone to it, it could be very hard to find.

I wonder how strong the evidence was that Gilroy was ever in the Glen Croe area? Was he smart enough to have figured out some sort of double bluff, either in advance or playing up to it when the police started to ask him about it?

It's a pity the clocks will be changing soon and winter is coming. If this was May I'd be half inclined to come and give you a hand. Not that I think there's a snowball's chance in hell of finding anything, but it's an interesting reason for a nice walk in the country.
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Old 27th September 2016, 03:57 PM   #386
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Snowballs in October ?

There are other ungated exits on the west side of the A819 but these lead to buildings or are forestry roads and they are possible disposal sites but the track on google street view ticks all the boxes.
It looks like it is in worse condition than the forestry roads and has the potential to damage a cars suspension.
It is more secluded than the forestry roads. (less likely to run in to forestry traffic)
It has vegetation at a high enough level to become stuck to a cars underside.

There is the B840 at Claddich but this road is in good condition and I cant see any tracks similar to the A819 google street view track.
There are forestry roads on the B840 which are gated except this one 2.3 miles from the A819

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.34...7i13312!8i6656

The east side of the A819 is all forestry roads or roads that lead to buildings.

The Glen Croe/Hells Glen journey (if there was one) could just have been an afternoon look around to check out if the area was suitable for disposal and not the actual disposal site.

The A819 track on google street view looks like a good starting point and if nothing is there then the ungated forestry tracks have to be considered as there may be areas off these forestry tracks which are in as poor condition as the google street view A819 track.

I will not be able to visit anytime soon though, maybe sometime in October.

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Old 28th September 2016, 02:17 AM   #387
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Using a combination of the websites below and google street view I searched from the junction of the A83 and A819 to the junction of the A819 and A85 .

http://maps.forestry.gov.uk/imf/imf....cscotland_ext&
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/osmaps/

Maybe the police were so engrossed with the Hells Glen area they didnt consider the A819 as a disposal site.

Here are the google street views of the exits from the A819/A83 junction going south to north starting with the west side exits.

1 - The first left leads from the police station to housing then on to Barn Park
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.23...7i13312!8i6656
I ruled this out due to the police station and housing area.
2 - The second left is Upper Avenue which leads on to a water treatment works and skirts around the golf course.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.23...7i13312!8i6656
I ruled this out as the road may be frequently used and if it was used by Gilroy he could bypass Inveraray centre and we know Gilroy did not bypass Inveraray centre.
3 - The third left is on to a forestry road with large boulders crossing its path.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.24...7i13312!8i6656
A car could get past the boulders if determined enough although I ruled this out for the time being due to possible forestry activity beyond the track entrance.
4 - The fourth left is at Electric Cottage
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.24...7i13312!8i6656
I ruled this out for the time being as there is a risk of being seen while passing the cottage although upon passing the cottage there are tracks leading into the forest.
5 - The fifth left is an opened gate on to a forestry road
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.24...7i13312!8i6656
I ruled this out for the time being due to possible forestry activity beyond the track entrance.
6 - The sixth left is also a forestry road with logs at the entrance
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.25...7i13312!8i6656
I have ruled this out for the time being due to possible forestry activity beyond the track entrance although it looks a better option than turn 5.
7 - The seventh left is an ungated track in poor condition (the track I mentioned in previous posts)
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.25...7i13312!8i6656
This track ticks all the boxes and I thought this could be the place, although there could be more similar tracks north of this, so I continued searching north of track 7.
Will continue this post from track 8 later.
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Old 28th September 2016, 07:03 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by NightOfTheDemon View Post
The Glen Croe/Hells Glen journey (if there was one) ...

Originally Posted by NightOfTheDemon View Post
Maybe the police were so engrossed with the Hells Glen area they didnt consider the A819 as a disposal site.

This is odd. I never saw any news that Gilroy had been definitely linked to Hell's Glen, just to Glen Croe. My impression was that once he had been linked to that general area, Hell's Glen sort of leaps out as being a rather obvious pick, being a very lightly-used minor road with no habitation along it and dense forest in a number of places, in contrast to Glen Croe itself which is an A road and quite busy.

However, the reports I read said that the linkage was by his phone pinging a mast at Glen Croe some time in the mid-afternoon. If that was true then it's a fairly definite fix on him as being there barring some truly weird trick of the landscape and mobile phone signals. (Unlikely in that mountainous terrain, although there was a time when the best mobile phone signal on Skye was in the north-west from a mast on Harris.) But the more detailed reports all say he kept his phone off before the Inveraray CCTV sighting, and then in the evening before Arrochar or Tarbet. So the tale of his phone pinging the Glen Croe mast must be false.

I therefore wonder about the strength of the evidence that got the police so fixated on the Rest and Be Thankful area, when the CCTV evidence says he went a completely different way. I mean, if you forget Glen Croe entirely and simply look at the evidence that he disappeared for about 2½ hours between Tyndrum and Inveraray, Glen Aray seems the obvious pick.

Did he even go to Glen Croe at all? Given that he had limited time, it's a significant detour either just to scope somewhere out, or to lay a false trail. I'm really quite confused now.

One of the things the cops said was that given the amount of petrol "missing" from his tank, he could have gone a very long way indeed. But that doesn't make sense. He wasn't off the radar for that long and concealing the body would have taken a significant amount of time. He can't have driven hundreds of miles. On the other hand, struggling uphill on a very bad road, possibly getting stuck and having to rev the engine to get out of trouble, uses a hell of a lot of petrol.

I don't think the petrol calculations prove that he took a long detour, even as far as Glen Croe. What if the missing time was actually spent in or near Glen Aray, and Gilroy just thought he'd play up to the cops' interest in Glen Croe by appearing as if he really didn't want to be placed there?

What if he did have a change of clothes with him, and managed to find a burial site, and actually got her more or less underground? How long would it take for the vegetation to cover his tracks? In May? Probably not that long.

I don't know what he would have used for digging though as there's no mention of a spade or anything like that in the story.
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Old 28th September 2016, 03:32 PM   #389
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The Daily Record reported that

Police used tracking signals from his mobile phone to narrow the search to five square miles in the Glen Croe area, near the Rest and Be Thankful beauty spot.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/cr...keeper-4981209

But this phone tracking is not confirmed in the indictment or the map the police released in 2012, the indictment and map show that Gilroys phone was not switched on between noon to 15.57 and 18.54 to 21.34.

It would have been helpful if the reporters Lindsey Archibald and Chris Clements had got more information about the "tracking signal" such as where the signal started and finished and at what time the signals were recorded.

It does look like the police search started in Glen Croe and the search developed from there on to the Rest and Be Thankful then Hells Glen.
Something initially attracted the police to Glen Croe, it could have been a mobile signal, a sighting or a calculated police guess or a combination of these.

Personally I dont think that the Glen Croe area is the disposal site, he probably drove there, but not for disposal, I think the disposal site should be similar to turn 7 on the A819 in my previous post and I dont see anywhere similar in Glen Croe or Hells Glen.

The route the police know for certain Gilroy drove with his phone off has not been searched, they know he drove from Tyndrum to Inveraray via the A85 and A819 (and only searched Glen Orchy which is off the A85) but did not search anywhere between Tyndrum and Dalmally or anywhere on the A819.

These areas would seem an obvious place to search and I cant think of a reason not to.

Gilroys car was a silver Vauxhall Vectra 1.9 litre diesel registration number KF55 FKP.
The police did a fuel consumption comparison and found there were 124 miles unaccounted for but this is really not helpful as there are many factors which could affect fuel consumption such as how fast or slow you drive, the condition of the car and the roads you drive on.
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Old 28th September 2016, 04:28 PM   #390
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That is odd. Although I had read all about Glen Croe and Hell's Glen and of course Glen Orchy, I didn't realise they hadn't looked at Glen Aray at all. If you look at the early pages of this thread, you'll see it was Glen Aray I first homed in on while I was still confused by the conflicting press reports and only knew he'd gone off-radar for a couple of hours between Tyndrum and Inveraray. It really, really looks like one of the first places you'd consider. I moved away from it partly because I gave credence to the reports that the police were more interested in Hell's Glen, and partly because the areas I looked at were relatively sparsely forested and the forest tracks were mostly gated. I didn't go so close to Inveraray as you've done, and you've identified a much more promising area.

The Daily Record is pretty much known for poor-quality, sensationalist journalism and I don't suppose they insist on their court reporter getting all the facts in or even getting them right. I actually read somewhere that Gilroy's phone had pinged a mast at Glen Croe, but that could have been one stage further down the Chinese Whispers trail than the "tracking signal" story.

We figured out the time it would take to detour from Inveraray to the Rest and Be Thankful earlier in the thread. The AA has it at 20 minutes each way. So if he went up that way he's shaving at least 40 minutes off the 2½ hours he had to play with. It's not impossible, obviously - in fact it makes little difference to the logistics if he drove down Glen Aray and then doubled back to Glen Croe, whether he disposed of the body in Glen Aray or Glen Croe, he still has the same amount of time.

But he was perilously late getting to Lochgilphead. If he did dispose of the body close to his main route, why waste an extra 40 minutes driving up to Glen Croe?

I also wonder how he navigated his way to a good disposal spot, and navigated into these forests once he got there. He can't have used a computer the night before or surely the cops would have found the searches. The Streetview images weren't there at the time anyway, the van only went round in 2015, five years later. And Google maps is bloody useless for that sort of job without Streetview. You really need the OS and you need the Explorer scale. And I can tell you the current OS facility wasn't available either in 2010. I was trying to use it to plan political leafleting runs for the election either the day after Gilroy's drive or the one for Holyrood the following year, and the best resolution you could get on Get-a-Map was Landranger and even that was cumbersome. (And again, the searches would show in his browser history.)

There's no report of him buying an OS map anywhere. I think it would have been tricky to do this blind, just going up a side track on spec. Maybe he did, several times, and that's what took the time and wrecked his suspension. But the landscape isn't deserted and I'd have thought if he did to much of that he'd have attracted attention. I wonder if he already had an Explorer map of the area in his possession?

I wonder if the cops specifically talked to the leafleting teams from the political parties about that day? People would remember, it was eve of poll. And if they were out and about doing any sort of last-minute activity someone might have noticed something. Especially close to the town itself.

Though there's another side to that. It was eve of poll. People do drive along some pretty bloody stupid roads looking for voters in stupid places. One woman drafted into my patch for a party that didn't have any local volunteers once said, "I have a simple strategy. I see a side road, I drive up it." (Tell you what, dear, I have detailed marked maps of all the occupied dwellings plus a list of house names in the most efficient order to get round them. Consider that and weep.) Anyway, it's not impossible that a strange car going some strange places might have been dismissed by onlookers as just another political geek.

A time machine to go back and look would be good.
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Old 29th September 2016, 02:53 PM   #391
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Looking at my Ordnance Survey explorer map (number 360) the turns from number 2 to 7 are all connected by tracks in the forest.
Potentially you could, for example, drive in to turn 7 and exit at turn 3.
The explorer map does show all of the tracks going off the A819 and on previous trips to Lochgilphead High School Gilroy could have noticed these tracks whilst driving on the A819.
If he did go to turn 7 then he has picked out the track which is in the worst condition of all the tracks on the west side of the A819.
Maybe he picked track 7 because he thinks this makes it more likely that it is rarely used or maybe he chose track 7 because it leads directly in to dense forest from the track entrance.

Moving on to exits further north from turn 7 on the west side of the A819

8 - The 8th turn (west side of A819 going north) is at Three Bridges, a track that leads to farms and the end of the track leads in to Salachry forest.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.26...7i13312!8i6656
There are two possible turns off the A819 at Three Bridges, both turns lead to a road in good condition and I have ruled this road out due to the farms and forestry activity.
9 - The 9th turn leads to farms at Stronmagachan and is ruled this out due to the farms.
10 - The 10th turn leads to Drimfern and is ruled out due to the farms.
11 - The 11th turn leads to South Tullich and is ruled out due to the farm.
12 - The 12th turn leads to North Tullich and is ruled out due to the farm.
13 - The 13th turn leads to an unknown farm/cottage and is ruled out.
14 - The 14th turn is a gated forestry track.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.33...7i13312!8i6656
I have ruled this out due to the gate and forestry activity.
15/16 - The 15th and 16th turns lead on to the B840 at Claddich and it is 2.3 miles from the junction of the A819 and B840 before there is a an ungated forestry track.
17 - The 17th turn leads to Inistrynich and is ruled out due to the farms.
18 - The 18th turn leads on to section of the old military road that leads in to a forest.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.36...7i13312!8i6656
This merits investigation although the entrance to the old military road looks to be in a reasonable condition.

That completes the west side of the A819 and the areas of interest are turn 7, turn 18 and possibly any tracks off the B840.

Next search is on the east side of the A819 from the junction of the A85 and A819 going south to the junction of the A819 and A83.

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Old 30th September 2016, 11:48 AM   #392
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Quote:
But he was perilously late getting to Lochgilphead. If he did dispose of the body close to his main route, why waste an extra 40 minutes driving up to Glen Croe?
If Glen Aray was the body disposal site then an afternoon Glen Croe trip could have been to lay a false trail and/or dump the rubbish from the car boot before heading back to Inveraray then Lochgilphead.
This assumes the body disposal site and rubbish dump site are in different areas.
I dont think he would have risked arriving at Lochgilphead High School with the rubbish in the car boot, he may as well have the body in the boot too.
I think this was all carefully planned and he would have thought of all eventualities as he thought his liberty depended on it and he would not have forgotten to take enough black bags that day.
Gilroy had time in the evening to clean any forensic evidence from the car boot.
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Old 1st October 2016, 12:45 PM   #393
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The only track I could see on the east side of the A819 which could be the body disposal site is track 19.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.38...7i13312!8i6656
After the track entrance go straight on and there is a gate before the right turn on the track.
But turn sharp left just after the track entrance and adjacent to the A819 going north is another track which may cause suspension damage to a car.

Track 7 is most likely followed by track 18 and track 19.

From the junction of the A83 and A819 to track 7 on the west side is 1.9 miles.
From the junction of the A83 and A819 to track 18 on the west side is 10.8 miles.
From the junction of the A83 and A819 to track 19 on the east side is 12.5 miles.

The weather looks good for Inveraray tomorrow Sunday 2nd October, I will try to get there tomorrow.
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Old 1st October 2016, 03:25 PM   #394
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Keep going, I'm following you even if nobody else is. The forecast for tomorrow is fine, have a lovely day!

My thought is that there's a dichotomy between wanting a track that wasn't well travelled and possibly leaving tracks himself that would show a vehicle had been driven up there. Even possibly tyre tracks that could be matched to his own car. I'm not sure how dry it was in the first week in May 2010, but is it ever reliably dry underfoot in Argyll, especially under trees?

Also, if he concealed the body in Glen Aray, he was hellish lucky if the police decided not to search there. I mean it's the obvious pick if you don't get distracted by siren songs coming from Glen Croe. If he had left obvious scars on a little-used track and the cops had got there within a week or two, he could have been in a lot of trouble.

Now, though, any such scars will be long gone. If he dumped her above ground, maybe only concealed by vegetation, something might well be found but in all that area what are the chances, given that he would surely have concealed her well. And if he did have time to get her underground, the vegetation will have covered the area entirely by now.

I'm not saying don't go, it's as good a reason for a nice day out as any and it's really intriguing, but I will faint dead away if anything comes of it! (Not as long a shot as Little Swan wanting me to take a walk in the Newcastleton Forest 25 years after Lockerbie mind you. Fortunately the people who did take these walks in 1989 found enough, as it turned out.)
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Old 2nd October 2016, 01:05 AM   #395
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Thanks for the update. I'm also in the Gilroy is guilty as sin camp. Apart from anything else, the police seem to have eliminated all other possible murderers.
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Old 2nd October 2016, 11:08 AM   #396
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Just back from Inveraray trip and unfortunately nothing found in the forest off track 7.
The track entrance has a large puddle at the entrance
https://postimg.org/image/4v9y2w7ur/
and vegetation
https://postimg.org/image/7pzslphet/
and rocks
https://postimg.org/image/e7mhfy7r3/
and on the right hand side walking up the hill there is a forest which I spent an hour in but could not see anything unusual
https://postimg.org/image/lyjfeqmup/
at the top of the track is a gate and the track turns to the left
https://postimg.org/image/9gwu27w6r/
I didnt go any further than the gate but the track I walked would cause car suspension damage.
I also has a squirrel for company
https://postimg.org/image/i3g4tdrwj/

The track is in very poor condition and the police would have to be interested enough to search the whole of the forest thoroughly in order to find Suzanne.
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Old 2nd October 2016, 02:19 PM   #397
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Love the squirrel!

That track would certainly be a prime candidate for damaging suspension. And the puddle may not have been there in May 2010. I just wonder how willing he might have been to risk leaving tracks, or at least evidence that a car had been driven up a very unfrequented road, to get away from the better roads where he'd be more likely to encounter someone.

Back to, did the police really not search Glen Aray? And, how strong is the evidence Gilroy went to Glen Croe or its environs? I wish we had trial transcripts. (An awful lot of what you think you know turns out not to be so when you have access to the original witness accounts.)
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Old 5th October 2016, 02:43 PM   #398
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The tracks all connect so Gilroy could have been driving on any one of these tracks and only damaged his cars suspension on the way out of the forest at the track 7.
A search would have to be made on the west side of the A819 in all of the forest tracks that lead off track 7.
The only link to Gilroy and these forests is that he may have damaged his cars suspension on a track either going in to or out of the forest, its not enough for a police search of the area.

I will go back though, early next year.

On the way back I took the same route Gilroy took past Dalmally on the A85 to Tyndrum and on to the A82 at Crianlarich to Ardlui then Tarbet.
The A82 from Crianlarich to Tarbet is a road to be avoided if possible and it was even worse back in May 2010 as the stretch of road at pulpit rock was still a traffic light controlled single lane road (work to widen the A82 at pulpit rock only started in May 2013.)

From Tyndrum to the police station in Edinburgh via the A84 and A85 is 81.8 miles and takes 1 hour and 44 minutes.
This is Gilroys normal route going from Tyndrum to Crianlarich to Callander to the M9 to Edinburgh.

From Tyndrum to the police station in Edinburgh via the A82 and A811 is 101 miles and takes 2 hours and 11 minutes.
This is the unusual route he took in the evening from Tyndrum to Crianlarich to Ardlui to Tarbet to Balloch to the M9 to Edinburgh.

Gilroy went the long way on a road which if given a choice (which he had) should be avoided and it took him 27 minutes more to drive and he drove 19.2 miles more than necessary.

I dont think he was up to anything on the A82 or A811 route as his phone was switched on from Ardlui to Edinburgh but he could have went the Tyndrum to Ardlui to Edinburgh route to avoid going on the Tyndrum to Callander to Edinburgh route.

Currently, the standard rate for the transcription of one hour of court proceedings is £126.
http://petercherbi.blogspot.co.uk/20...-scotland.html
The trial started on 20th February 2012 and lasted 24 days.

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Old 22nd January 2017, 10:48 AM   #399
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This is a website set up by David Gilroy's supporters http://www.gilroyfamily.info/.
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Old 22nd January 2017, 05:41 PM   #400
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I think someone linked to that earlier as well. The comment was that the only Gilroy supporters appear to be his own close family.

It's striking that his entire focus is on Thistle Street in the morning. He's trying to show that it isn't certain Suzanne entered her office building that morning. I don't know how realistic that attempt is, not having seen the CCTV footage.

What he hasn't addressed is the question of where the hell he was during the afternoon of the following day. If he had simply stuck around Edinburgh worrying about Suzanne's disappearance like everyone else, he wouldn't be in this mess. If he's innocent, why doesn't he explain how come it took him over two hours longer than it should have done to get from Tyndrum to Inveraray early in the afternoon, and another two hours too long on the way back? And explain how the suspension on his car was so badly damaged it was almost undrivable?

Surely an innocent man would be only too eager to tell the police exactly where he was and what happened that afternoon? But he never did. He clammed up and did a "no comment" to just about everything.

He's as guilty as hell.
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