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Tags general discussion , holocaust , holocaust denial , World War II history

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Old 17th September 2017, 11:31 AM   #41
Dash80
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Apparently you did indeed read things wrong but what else is new?

Strange how you decide it's all just "a pack of lies from the Jews," when there's considerable testimony and documentation from German and other non-Jewish sources.
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Old 17th September 2017, 11:35 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Also, there is the matter of the weapons of war, real, and fictional, here we have real weapons of war, actual arrowheads from the Battle of Thermopylae, 480BCE

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...9747be4f2a.jpg

but for phony weapons of war, i.e. the hoax 'gas vans' from 1940AD , there are no photos.

As for photos of "Nazi gas vans" finding links to pictures took less than 5 seconds. If you can't find photos you really aren't looking.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/259234...yria-basement/
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Old 17th September 2017, 11:46 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
As for photos of "Nazi gas vans" finding links to pictures took less than 5 seconds. If you can't find photos you really aren't looking.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/259234...yria-basement/
Not sure about that photo, hasn't it been doubted that is a gas van?

Regardless, why on EARTH would the Nazis take photos of murder apparatus meant to be kept as secret as possible, Saggy?
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Old 17th September 2017, 11:49 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Dash80 View Post
Not sure about that photo, hasn't it been doubted that is a gas van?

.....
Don't quibble D. When 'debating' with the hasbara the idiotic lies are endless.
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Old 17th September 2017, 11:55 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Don't quibble D. When 'debating' with the hasbara the idiotic lies are endless.
YES I agree, yours are particularly idiotic.
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Old 17th September 2017, 11:57 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Dash80 View Post
Strange how you decide it's all just "a pack of lies from the Jews," when there's considerable testimony and documentation from German and other non-Jewish sources.
There is extensive testimony and documentation from German sources that this is the door into the krema 1 gas chamber ...



and it is still be shown to visitors to Auschwitz as just that.

The entire holohoax is a pack of Jewish lies, without a shred of physical evidence. Like a fractal, absurd at face value, and as you look in more detail the absurdities multiply. As Butz said 'The "Holocaust" is such a gigantic fraud that it is a cornucopia of absurdities.'
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Old 17th September 2017, 12:03 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
There is extensive testimony and documentation from German sources that this is the door into the krema 1 gas chamber ...

https://i.imgur.com/v4eaFPP.jpg?1

and it is still be shown to visitors to Auschwitz as just that.

The entire holohoax is a pack of Jewish lies, without a shred of physical evidence. Like a fractal, absurd at face value, and as you look in more detail the absurdities multiply. As Butz said The "Holocaust" is such a gigantic fraud that it is a cornucopia of absurdities.
Anyone with at least two brain cells to rub together can see that is not an original gas-tight door from Krema 1. Neither does anyone actually claim it is, Krema 1 was converted in to an air raid shelter. The configuration of the building changed entirely, including interior walls and doorways.
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Old 17th September 2017, 12:07 PM   #48
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The holohoax is has the distinction of being the only hoax were the preposterous lies were etched in stone .... then cast in brass .... here it is ......



Then, 50 years after the fact, and after glasnost, the truth was revealed ....

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Old 17th September 2017, 12:16 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
The holohoax is has the distinction of being the only hoax were the preposterous lies were etched in stone .... then cast in brass .... here it is ......

https://i.imgur.com/VwKlHdW.jpg
You've had your butt handed to you on this one before. Note it says PEOPLE, the (very wrong) Soviet estimate included Jews and non-Jews from all over Europe. Western historians in fact highly doubted those figures.

Quote:
Then, 50 years after the fact, and after glasnost, the truth was revealed ....

https://i.imgur.com/LxOWVCz.jpg
Deaths of REGISTERED inmates and not even a complete record. Jews killed immediately were not registered, their deaths were not recorded.

Lovely how you use such big fat volumes of death records to apologise for the Nazis. Nice touch, Saggy.
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Old 17th September 2017, 12:18 PM   #50
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Of course a discrepancy of 3,000,000 deaths requires an explanation, but that was no problem ....

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Old 17th September 2017, 12:24 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Of course a discrepancy of 3,000,000 deaths requires an explanation, but that was no problem ....

https://i.imgur.com/F4gmZ6P.jpg
Actually it's very easy.

Since the Soviet 4 million is not exclusively Jewish your math fails.

They obviously took into account the huge number of Polish and Soviet civilians murdered by the Nazis, plus the more than 3 million Soviet POWS who died in German captivity. They got it wrong, and maybe understandably so given the enormous loss of life the Nazis caused.

All those murders and deaths were spread out across hundreds of camps and ghettos, but given that Auschwitz-Birkenau was KNOWN to be partly an extermination camp even before the war was over, how is it so ridiculous to assume a high percentage of those murders took place there?
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Old 17th September 2017, 12:44 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Dash80 View Post
Actually it's very easy.

Since the Soviet 4 million is not exclusively Jewish your math fails.

They obviously took into account the huge number of Polish and Soviet civilians murdered by the Nazis, plus the more than 3 million Soviet POWS who died in German captivity. They got it wrong, and maybe understandably so given the enormous loss of life the Nazis caused.

All those murders and deaths were spread out across hundreds of camps and ghettos, but given that Auschwitz-Birkenau was KNOWN to be partly an extermination camp even before the war was over, how is it so ridiculous to assume a high percentage of those murders took place there?
Hitler was also responsible for the death of 6,000,0000+ Germans too.
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Old 17th September 2017, 01:07 PM   #53
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A denialist passes of his opinion as if it is authoritative and equal to actual evidence and then resort to repeating previously easily debunked claims. I think the latest tactic is to be very repetitive and boring.
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Old 17th September 2017, 01:31 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
A denialist passes of his opinion
This is not 'an opinion', this is the door to the krema1 gas chamber, presented to millions of visitors at Auschwitz, who, to my amazement, don't laugh in the face of the guides who tell them such idiocy ...



Now, if anyone would like to verify that, they can take, along with David Cole, the standard Auschtwitz tour in the company of a tour guide ... and see for themselves ....

David Cole Interviews Dr. Franciszek Piper at Auschwitz and Exposes a Fraud

The vid includes an interview with the director of the Auschwitz museum who reveals that the hoax 'gas chamber' was constructed by the Soviets after the war.
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Old 17th September 2017, 01:44 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
. . . or it's all just a pack of lies from the Jews.. . .
Every document and most of the witness testimonies cited in Hans' piece IIRC are from German authorities, with a number of Polish witnesses also cited and I believe a single Jewish source. In your fantasy world, that single Jewish source transforms 100 or so German and Polish documents and testimonies into "a pack of lies from the Jews." You need a new refrain, Saggy: this dog don't hunt.
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Old 17th September 2017, 01:54 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Don't quibble D. When 'debating' with the hasbara the idiotic lies are endless.
Which members do you claim are hasbaras? What is your proof?
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Old 17th September 2017, 01:55 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
There is extensive testimony and documentation from German sources that this is the door into the krema 1 gas chamber ...
Must we go over this often debunked claim once again? Not me . . .
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Old 17th September 2017, 02:13 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by LemmyCaution View Post
Which members do you claim are hasbaras? What is your proof?
An excellent question. The total duplicity and lack of shame for all posters supporting the hoax, coupled with the abject stupidity of many, convinces me that all are, shall we say, hoaxers. Are they trained hasbara, Jews, dupes ... there is no way to tell.

Or, are they just 'skeptics', which in the context of the ISF is one who expresses complete and unvarying skepticism to any questioning of the academic authority of the establishment. I think this may be a real personality type. Call this class C.

Hasbara - Class A.
Jews - Class B.
ISF skeptics - Class C
Rational data driven empiricists - Class D

It seems nearly every poster other than myself is in class A-C.

Rational discussion, any hint that the 'authority' is or even could be wrong, is completely missing.
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Old 17th September 2017, 02:16 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
An excellent question. . . . there is no way to tell.
Then stop lying about members of this forum and stop referring to members of this forum as hasbaras.

Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
It seems nearly every poster other than myself is in class A-C.
Your refusal to deal with evidence and your willingness to repeat CTs do indeed put you into a class of your own, conspiraloon without class.
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Old 17th September 2017, 02:18 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by LemmyCaution View Post
Every document and most of the witness testimonies cited in Hans' piece IIRC are from German authorities, with a number of Polish witnesses also cited and I believe a single Jewish source. In your fantasy world, that single Jewish source transforms 100 or so German and Polish documents and testimonies into "a pack of lies from the Jews." You need a new refrain, Saggy: this dog don't hunt.
My refrain is there is no physical evidence for the hoax. No matter how many hoax witnesses, irrelevant documents, absurd narratives, etc., you produce. Six million murdered in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms in the best documented genocide in history, and yet there are no bodies, no murder weapons, i.e. gas chambers disguised as shower rooms, and no documents. That dog is DOA.

And the chorus? All the 'eyewitnesses' are pathological and degenerate liars. More examples to come.
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Old 17th September 2017, 02:21 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by LemmyCaution View Post
Then stop lying about members of this forum and stop referring to members of this forum as hasbaras.


................................your willingness to repeat CTs do indeed put you into a class of your own, conspiraloon without class.
First, I'm being polite. Second, I'm a conspiracy theorist, you're hasbara, trained or de-facto.

Originally Posted by LemmyCaution View Post


Your refusal to deal with evidence ...
I clicked on your link and found an absurd fantasy with Blobel using a flame thrower, and then thermite grenades, to disappear the bodies. I'd be embarrassed to present such idiocy, but it's no problem for a hoaxer.
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Old 17th September 2017, 02:29 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
My refrain is there is no physical evidence for the hoax.
No, that is not your refrain and it is not what I was referring to. Your refrain is that evidence for the Holocaust is all Jewish lies.

There is indeed physical evidence for the mass murder of Jews: I linked to where you ignored evidence about the mass graves at Chelmno in part III of this discussion.

So I didn't present Hans' blog article as being about physical evidence; your now saying that it isn't is therefore beside the point. Hans' piece details German documents and German and Polish testimonies explaining how corpses were handled at Chelmno. You can continue to try changing the subject but it doesn't change the evidence which Hans has gathered and explained.

Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
hoax witnesses, irrelevant documents, absurd narratives, etc., you produce.
Lots of adjectives - nothing to support them.

Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Six million murdered in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms
Knock it off. Not one person in this discussion, nor one work we have cited makes any such claim.

Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
All the 'eyewitnesses' are pathological and degenerate liars. More examples to come.
Unfortunately for you, "all" includes witnesses we've cited - the ones you refuse to address. Your continuing to post about witnesses no one here has cited in support of the case for the Holocaust may make you feel good, but it's irrelevant.
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Old 17th September 2017, 02:39 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
First, I'm being polite.
No, you're not, you are lying about people's motives and calling me and others hasbaras whilst admitting that you have no clue about any such charge: "there is no way to tell." This behavior is actually rude as well as taking us off topic by making the discussion about your opponents instead of the issues.

Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Second, I'm a conspiracy theorist
Because, as I and others have said, you allege 1) a conspiracy of Jewish lies about the Holocaust, without providing explanation for the range of evidence for the Holocaust, including German and other sources and 2) a "hoax" that you can't define, explain, or support with evidence. I am focused on the issues: you say a conspiracy existed but refuse to provide support for this claim. You repeat such charges without explaining and supporting them - and you ignore nearly all the contrary evidence we present. This approach kills discussion.

Unlike you - you admit that you have no way to tell about the charges you make about hasbaras - I can support what I say about your repeating conspiracy claims.

Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
you're hasbara, trained or de-facto.
No, I am no such thing, and you've admitted you don't know what you claim. Knock it off.

Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
I clicked on your link and found an absurd fantasy with Blobel using a flame thrower, and then thermite grenades, to disappear the bodies. I'd be embarrassed to present such idiocy, but it's no problem for a hoaxer.
What is your evidence that Hans's discussion is an "absurd fantasy"? Your persistent use of alarmist adjectives doesn't prove anything, except that you can type out adjectives. Hans cited as evidence for his discussion of the failed experiment with a flame thrower this and this; Hans presented this concerning the use of thermite. You've neither countered Hans' sources nor presented anything of your own - except baseless and desperate, er, adjectives.
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Old 17th September 2017, 03:13 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by LemmyCaution View Post
Your continuing to post about witnesses no one here has cited in support of the case for the Holocaust may make you feel good, but it's irrelevant.
I discuss witnesses endorsed by the entire hoax establishment, Yad Vashem, USHMM, Spielberg, and who have been vetted by rabbis and hoax academics. Who cares what witnesses are discussed on this forum, I'm discussing nationally known witnesses being presented right now as authorities on the hoax on college campuses across the US, e.g. Zisblatt.

Originally Posted by LemmyCaution View Post
No, you're not, you are lying about people's motives and calling me and others hasbaras whilst admitting that you have no clue about any such charge:
Of course I have proof, but it is indirect. And as the hasbarats here do not response to a direct clubbing with a 2x4, I don't see the point in presenting an indirect argument. But, I will ... the door to the hoax gas chamber pictured above ... presented to millions of visitors to Auschwitz .... anyone who defends or excuses that degenerate crime is a hasbarat or worse.
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Old 17th September 2017, 03:35 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
I discuss witnesses endorsed by the entire hoax establishment, Yad Vashem, USHMM, Spielberg, and who have been vetted by rabbis and hoax academics.
First, there is no "hoax establishment." E.g., what rabbis think may differ a great deal from what scholars have found and argue - they have different concerns.

Second, the fact that archives include testimonies does not constitute "endorsement." Scholars use archives and assess what they find there - this especially goes for testimonies given long after the fact. Last year's Lessons & Legacies conference included a field trip to the USC Shoah archives to explore such issues in using them.

Third, you are debating us - and the evidence we rely on. By refusing to engage it - and substituting material of your own choosing - you veer off into irrelevancy.

Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Who cares what witnesses are discussed on this forum
So you are here why? You're practically admitting that you are using this forum not to discuss and debate other members' conclusions and arguments but to propagandize.

Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
I'm discussing nationally known witnesses being presented right now as authorities on the hoax on college campuses across the US, e.g. Zisblatt.
You are ignoring the scholarship, which I have told you time and again that you're doing. Please, tell me how many times Zisblatt is referenced in the scholarly works listed in this post? Hint: zero.

Since it is from sources like those on the list I posted that I draw my conclusions about the Holocaust, your ignoring those sources and posting about other material doesn't help me or anyone understand what you think is problematic (Jewish lies, hoaxing, etc) in the sources.

I assure you - and Neander's article on Zisblatt is only the most visible part of this - Zisblatt is not a source scholars have used to prove the Holocaust. Again, not a single member of this forum has cited her testimony.

No one here is responsible for every single statement made on TV, in magazines, or in various web sources about the Holocaust. Your attempt to make this so is dishonest and serves as your escape hatch to get you out of discussing what we do claim and what evidence we do use.

Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Of course I have proof, but it is indirect.
You have no proof, indirect or direct. That's why you had to admit that "there is no way to tell." You are lying, Saggy. Prove me wrong.
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Old 17th September 2017, 03:39 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
First, I'm being polite. Second, I'm a conspiracy theorist, you're hasbara, trained or de-facto.

That is not being polite.


Quote:
I clicked on your link and found an absurd fantasy with Blobel using a flame thrower, and then thermite grenades, to disappear the bodies. I'd be embarrassed to present such idiocy, but it's no problem for a hoaxer.
Have you ever bothered reading anything about Chelmno that hasn't come from some Nazi filth website?

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...elmno.html?m=1

Hint: Bodies did not simply disappear.
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Old 17th September 2017, 03:39 PM   #67
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Saggy, I notice you are ignoring this:
Originally Posted by LemmyCaution View Post
What is your evidence that Hans's discussion is an "absurd fantasy"? Your persistent use of alarmist adjectives doesn't prove anything, except that you can type out adjectives. Hans cited as evidence for his discussion of the failed experiment with a flame thrower this and this; Hans presented this concerning the use of thermite. You've neither countered Hans' sources nor presented anything of your own - except baseless and desperate, er, adjectives.
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Old 17th September 2017, 03:41 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by LemmyCaution View Post
Prove me wrong.
Hasbarats are never wrong, the concept of truth vs. lie is irrelevant to them. Their job is to defend the crimes of Israel and the Jews, including the holohoax. The fact that you don't condemn the Auschwitz Museum for presenting a hoax gas chamber to the unsuspecting and infinitely gullible public is all the proof needed for those to whom truth matters.
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Old 17th September 2017, 03:45 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
This is not 'an opinion', this is the door to the krema1 gas chamber, presented to millions of visitors at Auschwitz, who, to my amazement, don't laugh in the face of the guides who tell them such idiocy ...

https://i.imgur.com/v4eaFPP.jpg?1

Now, if anyone would like to verify that, they can take, along with David Cole, the standard Auschtwitz tour in the company of a tour guide ... and see for themselves ....

David Cole Interviews Dr. Franciszek Piper at Auschwitz and Exposes a Fraud

The vid includes an interview with the director of the Auschwitz museum who reveals that the hoax 'gas chamber' was constructed by the Soviets after the war.
Strange how books published even before that mention the conversion of the crematorium in to an air raid shelter, and the Soviet's rather botched job of trying to reconfigure it to the original layout.

You'd think David Cole would know that, not like he would be deliberately misleading...right?
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Old 17th September 2017, 03:47 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Dash80 View Post
Have you ever bothered reading anything about Chelmno that hasn't come from some Nazi filth website?

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...elmno.html?m=1

Hint: Bodies did not simply disappear.
To reinforce this point, both LeoMajor and I have posted this same material in reply to Saggy earlier (referenced here and in other posts - and he ignored it (actually he replied with links about Babi Yar . . . LOL).
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Old 17th September 2017, 03:54 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Hasbarats are never wrong, the concept of truth vs. lie is irrelevant to them. Their job is to defend the crimes of Israel and the Jews, including the holohoax. The fact that you don't condemn the Auschwitz Museum for presenting a hoax gas chamber to the unsuspecting and infinitely gullible public is all the proof needed for those to whom truth matters.
First, that is not what the Auschwitz Museum does, as Dash80 has now told you, for the umpteenth time. Second, the Auschwitz Museum is hardly the only museum to use reconstructions. Third, even if one assumes that you are right about the Auschwitz Museum, you are engaging in at least two profound logical fallacies - false equivalence and association fallacy.

You've proved nothing; you've merely asserted a number of unproven points and drawn a false conclusion.

And I am often wrong, so clearly I am not what you say.
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Old 17th September 2017, 03:57 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Hasbarats are never wrong, the concept of truth vs. lie is irrelevant to them. Their job is to defend the crimes of Israel and the Jews, including the holohoax. The fact that you don't condemn the Auschwitz Museum for presenting a hoax gas chamber to the unsuspecting and infinitely gullible public is all the proof needed for those to whom truth matters.
So how do you explain the fact that many accounts of early gassings in Krema 1 came from non-Jews, specifically Polish inmates and German guards? Neither of which had much love for Jews. Also most of those gassed in late 41/early 42 were not Jews but sick Poles and Soviet POWS. In fact, gassing was used in the Euthanasia program since the end of 1939, a program that was widely condemned in public and even protested against by the Vatican.

So much for your Jewish conspiracy.
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Old 17th September 2017, 04:32 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
All the 'eyewitnesses' are pathological and degenerate liars.
Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
it's all just a pack of lies from the Jews
Please help me out, Saggy. Which of the following "lies from the Jews" are (a) pathological, (b) degenerate, (c) preposterous, (d) absurd, or (e) all of the above?

Example 1, Dubno:
Quote:
[We] went straight to the pits. Nobody prevented us. I heard a quick succession of shots from behind one of the mounds of earth. The people who had got off the lorries – men, women and children of all ages – had to undress upon the order of an SS man, who carried a riding or a dog whip. They had to put their clothes on separate piles of shoes, top clothing, and underclothing.

I saw a heap of shoes that must have contained eight hundred to one thousand pairs, great piles of clothes and undergarments. Without screaming or weeping these people undressed, stood in family groups, kissed each other, said their farewells, and waited for a sign form another SS man, who stood near the pit, also with a whip in his hand.

During the fifteen minutes that I stood near the pit, I did not hear anyone complain or beg for mercy. I watched a family of about eight, a man and a woman, both about fifty, with their children, aged about one, eight and ten, and two grown up daughters of about twenty to twenty –four.

An old woman with snow-white hair was holding the one-year old child in her arms, singing something to it and tickling it. The child was crowing with delight. The man and wife were looking on with tears in their eyes.

The father was holding the hand of a boy about ten, speaking to him softly. The boy was fighting back his tears. The father pointed to the sky, stroked the boy’s head and seemed to explain something to him.

At that moment the SS man at the pit shouted something to his comrade, who separated off about twenty persons and ordered them to go behind the mound of earth. Among them was the family I have mentioned.

I still clearly remember a dark- haired, slim girl who pointed to herself as she passed close to me and said, “Twenty-Three.” I walked to the other side of the mound and found myself standing before an enormous grave. The people lay so closely packed, one on top of the other, that only their heads were visible.

Nearly all had blood running over their shoulders from their heads. Some of them were still moving. Some lifted an arm and turned a head to show that they were still alive.

The pit was already two-thirds full. I estimated that it already contained about one thousand people. I looked round for the man who had shot them. He was an SS man who was sitting on the edge of the narrow end of the pit, his legs dangling into it. He had a sub-machine gun across his knees and was smoking a cigarette.

The people, completely naked, went down some steps which had been cut in the clay wall of the pit and climbed over the heads of those already lying there, to the place indicated by the SS man. They laid down in front of the dead or injured people. Some of them caressed those who were still alive and spoke to them softly.

Then I heard a series of shots. I looked into the pit and saw that the bodies were twitching or that the heads lay motionless on top of the bodies which lay before them. Blood was pouring from their necks.
Example 2, Babi Yar:
Quote:
. . . Everything happened very quickly, the Ukrainians hurried those who hesitated by kicking and pushing them. I think it took less than a minute from the moment a person took off his coat before he was standing completely naked.

No distinction was made between men, women and children. The Jews who were arriving could have turned back when they saw those who had come earlier taking off their clothes. Even today I cannot understand why they didn’t run.

Naked Jews were led to a ravine about 150 metres long, 30 metres wide and 15 metres deep. The Jews went down into the ravine through two or three narrow paths. When they got closer to the edge of the ravine, members of the Schutzpolizei grabbed them and made them lie down over the corpses of the Jews who had already been shot.

It took no time. The corpses were carefully laid down in rows. As soon as a Jew lay down, a Schutzpolizist came along with a sub-machine gun and shot him in the back of the head.The Jews who descended into the ravine were so frightened by this terrible scene that they completely lost their will. You could even see some of them lying down in the row on their own and waiting for the shot to come.

Only two members of the Schutzpolizei did the shooting. One of them was working at one of the ravine, the other started at the other end. I saw them standing on the bodies and shooting one person after another.

Walking over the corpses toward a new victim who had already laid down, the machine gunner shot him on the spot. It was an extermination machine that made no distinction between men, women and children.

Children were kept with their mothers and shot with them. I did not watch for long. When I approached the edge, I was so frightened of what I that I could not look at it for a long time.

I saw dead bodies at the bottom laid across in three rows, each of which was approximately 60 metres long. I could not see how many layers were there. It was beyond my comprehension to see bodies twitching in convulsions and covered with blood, so I could not make sense of the details.

Apart from the two machine gunners, there were two other members of the*Schutzpolizei*standing near each passage into the ravine.

They made each victim lie down on the corpses, so that the machine gunner could shoot while he walked by. When victims descended into the ravine and saw this terrible scene at the last moment, they let out a cry of terror. But they were grabbed by the waiting*Schutzpolizei*right away and hurled down onto the others.

Those who followed them could not see the terrible scene because it was obstructed by the edge of the ravine. While some people were getting undressed and most of the others were waiting their turn, there was a lot of noise. The Ukrainians paid no attention to the noise and just kept forcing people through the passages into the ravine.

You could not see the ravine from the site where people were taking off their clothes, because it was situated about 150 metres away from the first pile of clothes. Besides, a strong wind was blowing and it was very cold. You couldn’t hear the shooting in the ravine.*
Example 3, from a diary:
Quote:
. . . the aim is literally to wipe out the Jews as a people.
Example 4, general observation on how
Quote:
the shooting of the Jews, prisoners of war, and also of commissars
was being received.

Example 5, from trial testimony:
Quote:
. . . all Jews in the East have been knocked off. In all the larger towns more than 10,000 Jews have been knocked off.
Example 6, from a diary, Minsk:
Quote:
It is now 3 P.M. For the last hour all Jews still living here, 962 persons - women, old men, and children - are being shot. . . . A detachment of twenty policemen carries out the operation. Two men take turns shooting. The Jews pass in single file through two huts (near the pit). In the first they hand over their valuables, in the second head coverings, their furs and their boots. . . . Heartrending cries are being heard. Those who try to escape are shot on the spot. First it is the turn of the children, then the old men and women. . . . Those who refuse to comply are worked over with rubber truncheons. Children who have been hidden are discovered. . . . Tomorrow the operation will be concluded. In the nearby town of Tschweren, the same detachment will finish off 1,200 Jews. . . . From the window of my place of work . . . I can hear well the cries and shooting. . . .
Example 7, Slutsk:
Quote:
The town itself offered a picture of horror during the action. With indescribable brutality on the part of both the German police officers and particularly the Lithuanian partisans, the Jewish people, but also among them White Ruthenians, were taken out of their dwellings and herded together. Everywhere in the town shots were to be heard and in different streets the corpses of shot Jews accumulated. . . . The whole picture was generally more than ghastly. . . . I was not present at the shooting before the town. Therefore I cannot make a statement on its brutality. But it should suffice, if I point out that persons shot have worked themselves out of their graves some time after they had been covered. Regarding the economic damage I want to state that the tannery has been affected worst of all. 26 experts worked there. Of them, fifteen of the best specialists alone have been shot. Four more jumped from the truck during the transport and escaped, while seven others were not apprehended after they fled. The plant barely continues to operate today. Five wheelwrights worked in the wheelwright shop. Four of them have been shot and the shop has to keep going now with one wheelwright. Additional tradesmen such as carpenters, blacksmiths, etc. are still missing. . . . But now it seems that almost in all families some persons are missing. Reports come in from all over, making it clear that in one family the tradesman himself, in another family the wife and in the next one again the children are missing. In that way, almost all families have been broken up. It seems to be very doubtful whether under these circumstances the remaining tradesmen will show any interest in their work and produce accordingly, particularly as even today they are running around with bloody and bruised faces due to the brutality. . . . Anything of use such as boots, leather, cloth, gold and other valuables, has been taken away. . . . watches were torn off the arms of Jews in public, on the street, and rings were pulled off the fingers in the most brutal manner. . . .
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Old 17th September 2017, 04:43 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by LemmyCaution View Post
First, that is not what the Auschwitz Museum does,
Well, this is the kind of black is white lie a hasbarat would tell.

If anyone wants confirmation ...

David Cole Interviews Dr. Franciszek Piper at Auschwitz and Exposes a Fraud

This is why 'debate' with hasbara is meaningless, just a continuous outpouring of absurd lies.

EDIT:

Which of these lies is .... (a) pathological, (b) degenerate, (c) preposterous, (d) absurd, or (e) all of the above?

Your post gets and e, and not only that, it is easily verified by watching the link, which, everyone should watch in any case, it is one of the pillars of 'revisionism'.
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Old 17th September 2017, 04:49 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
There is no point in going thru the details here, but you have confirmed my opinion that you are a degenerate liar and 100% hasbara, real or de-facto, no difference.

If anyone wants confirmation ...
In other words, you can't prove your claim but you insist on wallowing in unfounded invective and ad hominem attacks.

Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
This is why 'debate' with hasbara is meaningless, just a continuous outpouring of absurd lies.
In other words, you can't deal with the arguments and evidence I and others produce, so you will declare that we are "hasbara" and avoid debate that way.

What utter nonsense.
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Old 17th September 2017, 05:22 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by LemmyCaution View Post
In other words, you can't prove your claim but you insist on wallowing in unfounded invective and ad hominem attacks.
The vid proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt. The hoax is made up absurd in your face preposterous lies, like your previous post.

I will refrain from such idiotic exchanges in the future.
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Old 17th September 2017, 05:26 PM   #77
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Fair disclosure. I am not jewish, christian, muslim or any other crank denomination. I am an atheist. I am not american, nor live in america. I am not Israeli, nor live in Israel nor remotely close to the ME.

That said, The neo-nazis are nukking futs, the anti-zionists are nukking futs and to top it all, your country supports Israel anyway. Is Trump wrong to support Israel? Were all the past presidents wrong to support Israel? Has any president been right?

Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
There is no point in going thru the details here,
What details? You have none.

Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
but you have confirmed my opinion that you are a degenerate liar and 100% hasbara, real or de-facto, no difference.
Seems to me that the terms "degenerate" and "hasbara" are insults that you picked up from various tempest-pooper pro-nazi sights which you foolishly thought were "killer" arguments all of their lonesome. Wrong. In fact, every time you use those terms, it makes your claims weaker. It would appear that you are unaware that abusing these terms makes your argument look even dumber, if that were possible.


Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
David Cole...it is to laugh.

Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
This is why 'debate' with hasbara is meaningless, just a continuous outpouring of absurd lies.
Fine, if that's your opinion, but there are no "hasbara" here that I know of. Just rational thinkers.

And don't you know what "hasbara" actually means? Of course you don't. If you did you would know that you engage in "hasbara" every day of your own life (unless you have led a VERY sheltered life).

Frankly, I am left wondering exactly where is the beef in your argument? So far, it seems to be all blather and no substance.

I will wager that your next post will contain the words "degenerate" and "hasbara".
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Old 17th September 2017, 05:29 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
The vid proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt. The hoax is made up absurd in your face preposterous lies, like your previous post.

I will refrain from such idiotic exchanges in the future.
How about addressing the Polish and German testimony of early Krema 1 gassings? The ones where the victims were sick Poles and Soviet POWS? The Euthanasia program?
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Old 17th September 2017, 05:32 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
The vid proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt. The hoax is made up absurd in your face preposterous lies, like your previous post.
????? which previous post, pray tell? . . .

how in heaven's name can a David Cole video prove beyond a shadow of a doubt your false claim that I am "hasbara"?!?!?!

Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
I will refrain from such ... exchanges in the future.
In the future? You've been refraining from discussion all along!
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Old 17th September 2017, 05:44 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by LemmyCaution View Post
????? which previous post, pray tell? . . .

how in heaven's name can a David Cole video prove beyond a shadow of a doubt your false claim that I am "hasbara"?!?!?!


In the future? You've been refraining from discussion all along!
Well you seem to not understand Saggy, LC, in his delusion mind he has been winning for last few months; Haven't you noticed that all the references on the Holocaust have been banned, all the lost Jews (or their descendants) have said, 'here we are', and all the history books have been re-written, Israel has collapsed and all the Jews have become Methodists, Hitler is now considered a nice guy, and is returning from exile in Antarctic - all due to Saggy's stern statements to us on this forum!!!
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