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Old 5th January 2018, 03:02 PM   #1
Jerrymander
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Do any conservatives admit that Nazis/KKK/alt right are far right?

So are there any conservatives and right-wingers who accept that fascism, Nazism, the KKK and white nationalists are far-right movements?

It seems that conservatives in the west want to claim that the evils associated with the right are really on the left.

For example, a CPAC leader Dan Schneider called the alt-right "left-wing". And a recent PragerU video tried to claim that the alt-right was more like the left than conservatives.

These also books by Jonah Goldberg and Dinesh D'Souza claiming that the Nazis are on the left and the old "KKK were Democrats" cliche.

If these movements aren't far-right, then what is?
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Old 5th January 2018, 03:57 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
So are there any conservatives and right-wingers who accept that fascism, Nazism, the KKK and white nationalists are far-right movements?

It seems that conservatives in the west want to claim that the evils associated with the right are really on the left.

For example, a CPAC leader Dan Schneider called the alt-right "left-wing". And a recent PragerU video tried to claim that the alt-right was more like the left than conservatives.

These also books by Jonah Goldberg and Dinesh D'Souza claiming that the Nazis are on the left and the old "KKK were Democrats" cliche.

If these movements aren't far-right, then what is?
Unfortunately, the right-left motif is not a good descriptor of the full spectrum of politics.

There is a circumplex model, and a similar two-dimensional model, that put communism and fascism pretty close to each other.

For example, the [Nolan Chart].

And the [Political compass]

Note in the Political Compass, there's a quadrant labeled Authoritarian Left.
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Old 5th January 2018, 04:29 PM   #3
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It depends if you consider "conservative" and "liberal" in their original sense (having value in hard-wrought traditions that shouldn't be overturned without great debate vs. needing to have large breaks with the past to save society) or as modern grab bags of disparate political positions, some from each idea (in which case an axis for that has no discernible meaning.)
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Old 5th January 2018, 04:44 PM   #4
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Maybe Orrin Hatch?
“We should call evil by its name. My brother didn't give his life fighting Hitler for Nazi ideas to go unchallenged here at home.”
http://beta.latimes.com/politics/was...htmlstory.html
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Old 5th January 2018, 05:44 PM   #5
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They don't think they're far right, they just think they're right.
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Old 5th January 2018, 05:55 PM   #6
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The acronym NAZI stands for "National SOCIALIST ...". If taken literally, far left it is.

And the German founders were against the bourgeois Jews weren't they?
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Old 5th January 2018, 06:07 PM   #7
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Insofar as they both recur to absolutes, political extremes may have different narratives, but share common inevitable, and miserable, outcomes. What matters, really, is the politics (dis)allowed by those preferring absolutist truth narratives, as opposed to those capable of employing adjustable and evolving fact-based perspectives. The former are, by nature, inimical to democracy, regardless of whether the dogma is political or religious. The latter may disagree strongly on points, but can in principle carry on as a functioning democracy.

Applied to the Political Compass cited earlier, I'd say the Compass itself, given certain definitions for Libertarian, shows what the problem is today: no mental space for reasoned positions. My take being, of course, that libertarianism, say, of the Objectivist variety, is heavily dogmatic, and criss-crosses the is-should boundary as sloppily as any other mad fringe idea. (It ignores systems thinking entirely, while performing sloppy "science;" i.e., a form of self-centered politics from a spoiled infant's perspective.)

The Authoritarian part of the chart, of course, being obviously absolutism in lipstick.

Big Truth is currently winning in the early 21st century.
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Old 5th January 2018, 06:13 PM   #8
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Quote:
Unfortunately, the right-left motif is not a good descriptor of the full spectrum of politics
Who says it has to? Just because other colors exist doesn't mean somethings can't be described as white or black.

Quote:
The acronym NAZI stands for "National SOCIALIST ...". If taken literally, far left it is.
Congratulations, you're the ten billionth person to bring that up.

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Old 5th January 2018, 06:21 PM   #9
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Kinda pointless if one adheres to the horseshoe theory of political science
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Old 5th January 2018, 06:25 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
Who says it has to? Just because other colors exist doesn't mean somethings everything can't be described as white or black.



.
FTFY
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Old 5th January 2018, 11:32 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
So are there any conservatives and right-wingers who accept that fascism, Nazism, the KKK and white nationalists are far-right movements?

It seems that conservatives in the west want to claim that the evils associated with the right are really on the left.

For example, a CPAC leader Dan Schneider called the alt-right "left-wing". And a recent PragerU video tried to claim that the alt-right was more like the left than conservatives.

These also books by Jonah Goldberg and Dinesh D'Souza claiming that the Nazis are on the left and the old "KKK were Democrats" cliche.

If these movements aren't far-right, then what is?
The problem is with the term alt-right. It's as though people don't know how to spell "bigoted white trash" any longer. It gets them a free pass because, well, compare:

"Lawrence P. Lawrence here, tonight on We The People News we'll be interviewing Alt-Right spokesman Cliven Duke...."

--- versus -----

"Lawrence P. Lawrence here, tonight on We The People News we'll be interviewing the Cliven Duke, the well-known white trash bigot."

You will find that the people selling the idea that the alt-right and the nazis are closer to left wingers are people who claim to be conservative but have found themselves sitting a little too close on the team bus to the guys with "Forget Hell! The South Will Rise Again." tattoos.

Sorry, conservatives. You leave with the girl you brought to the dance. You co-opted any moderation you had to welcome the fundies. You sold your souls to the southern strategy. You made your bed. Sleep in it. The conservative side of the ledger and the GOP in particular are the new party of White Separatism, Bigotry and Racism. It's who you are. If you say you're not, then rather than calling alt-righters lefties, form yourself an actual Conservative Party and deny the excesses of Jefferson the traitor elf Sessions, the Reprehensible Coulters and Hannitys and Carlsons, and the Mercers, Trumps and Bannons.

You won't. You'll pretend to be above it all because even a bigoted piece of crap who's also got some conservative blood is better than a liberal, right?

Dan Schneider is a perfect example. The CPAC had Spencer involved in their convention/meeting and could've excluded him from the outset. Instead, when the glaring light of publicity got uncomfortable, he tossed him out and called him names.
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Old 6th January 2018, 12:42 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
The acronym NAZI stands for "National SOCIALIST ...". If taken literally, far left it is.

National Socialist is an oxymoron.

Quote:
And the German founders were against the bourgeois Jews weren't they?

No, they were against all Jews and other "vaterlandslose Gesellen" (i.e. internationalists).
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Last edited by dann; 6th January 2018 at 12:51 AM.
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Old 6th January 2018, 02:39 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Unfortunately, the right-left motif is not a good descriptor of the full spectrum of politics.

There is a circumplex model, and a similar two-dimensional model, that put communism and fascism pretty close to each other.

For example, the [Nolan Chart].

And the [Political compass]

Note in the Political Compass, there's a quadrant labeled Authoritarian Left.
Neither of which is very good either.

I tend to agree with Paxton (Anatomy of Fascism) - fascism does not really have an intellectual component. It is a worldview of "people" or "races" in struggle, led by "leaders", and a practice that follows from that view with the goal of restoring a mythic past. The tenets and policies of fascist politicians were essentially defined by being ad-hoc and invented on the spot or co-opted from other movements (e.g. socialists) toward the ultimate goal of power consolidation and some elusive "victory".

That's very different from even Marxism-Leninism (which is a relatively un-intellectual form of Marxism) which has a much more coherent sets of values, views of society, concrete policy goals, etc. There are some loose paralells to be drawn (e.g. the mythic goal of "Communism" serving as justification) but the model of "totalitarianism" is pretty obsolete. Fascist and "Communist" states just weren't all that similar in their workings.

Fascism is "right-wing" in the sense that it is a form of pseudo-conservatism and a twisted, reactionary mirror image of popular socialist movements, but the classification really falls apart upon closer examination.
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Old 6th January 2018, 06:31 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
They don't think they're far right, they just think they're right.
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Old 6th January 2018, 06:32 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
Who says it has to? Just because other colors exist doesn't mean somethings can't be described as white or black.



Congratulations, you're the ten billionth person to bring that up.

Words have meanings whether you like it or not
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Old 6th January 2018, 06:46 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
So are there any conservatives and right-wingers who accept that fascism, Nazism, the KKK and white nationalists are far-right movements?

It seems that conservatives in the west want to claim that the evils associated with the right are really on the left.

For example, a CPAC leader Dan Schneider called the alt-right "left-wing". And a recent PragerU video tried to claim that the alt-right was more like the left than conservatives.

These also books by Jonah Goldberg and Dinesh D'Souza claiming that the Nazis are on the left and the old "KKK were Democrats" cliche.

If these movements aren't far-right, then what is?
Well, whether they admit it or not, the simple fact is that the "right", as the GOP likes to refer to itself in the US, has spent decades as the party that plays footsie with racists and anti-semites, even as their supposed leaders attempt to decry them (see - Bob Dole, Jack Kemp, and GWB in particular). Of course some (Pat Buchanan, Jesse Helms, Jeff Sessions) were open about one or both, and Islamophobia and homophobia have been more common among them than among the dems (who have also shown these two, less frequently).

This is exactly why they ended up with an open white supremacist like Dolt 45 as their leader. whines of "the dems created the KKK", especially from a slavery apologist and wannabe white guy (yes, I do mean this) like Dinesh D'Souza, mean nothing.
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Old 6th January 2018, 09:36 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
The acronym NAZI stands for "National SOCIALIST ...". If taken literally, far left it is.

And the German founders were against the bourgeois Jews weren't they?
...and when their current descendants march, they don't march for a free market economy. In fact, to the degree they know what it is, they're probably against it.
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Old 6th January 2018, 11:01 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Words have meanings whether you like it or not
Duh, and therein lies the problem: There was nothing actually socialistic about the NAZIs.
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Old 6th January 2018, 11:15 AM   #19
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They're just a bunch of idiots with no political clout at all. Who cares if they are left or right, are you looking for some kind of guilt by association?

"Can I blame all conservatives for the KKK and neo-Nazis? Can I lump them all together and hate them all?" You can do whatever you feel is right for you.

They love it when we point the fingers at each other instead of the actual bad guys.
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Old 6th January 2018, 11:19 AM   #20
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Charting everybody on a single line graph for future reference is like just super important to a lot of people, isn't it?
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Old 6th January 2018, 11:49 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
They're just a bunch of idiots with no political clout at all. Who cares if they are left or right, are you looking for some kind of guilt by association?

"Can I blame all conservatives for the KKK and neo-Nazis? Can I lump them all together and hate them all?" You can do whatever you feel is right for you.

They love it when we point the fingers at each other instead of the actual bad guys.
I did no such thing, so your post is irrelevant.
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Old 6th January 2018, 07:44 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
They're just a bunch of idiots with no political clout at all. Who cares if they are left or right, are you looking for some kind of guilt by association?

"Can I blame all conservatives for the KKK and neo-Nazis? Can I lump them all together and hate them all?" You can do whatever you feel is right for you.

They love it when we point the fingers at each other instead of the actual bad guys.
If you're not concerned if they're left or right, why not just identify them as part of the right wing, as they are? We're not looking for guilt by association, we're looking for conservatives who will man up and do a mitzvah and speak up as Barry Goldwater did to the fundies and as John McCain did with the bigots. Even Donnie Johnny tries to occasionally issue a statement condemning racism and bigotry. The "Hey, who cares?" is a little too convenient for a moderate conservative. Clean up your own nest.
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Old 7th January 2018, 01:50 AM   #23
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I find it funny that conservatives, who think all liberals should be tortured to death, are so concerned with being lumped in with Nazis who actually did what they secretly want.
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Old 7th January 2018, 10:32 AM   #24
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Old 7th January 2018, 08:42 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I find it funny that conservatives, who think all liberals should be tortured to death, are so concerned with being lumped in with Nazis who actually did what they secretly want.
Conservatives love authoritarians, as long as it's their dictator in charge. Today, they would not mind if Trump could shut down the "main stream Fake News" for example. It's part of their mind-set. They see that society should have a hierarchy with the wealthy in charge and the poor punished because the poor are lazy.
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Old 8th January 2018, 06:45 AM   #26
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They are Schrodinger Trump supporters. When a democrat calls them out as being deplorable that is totally unacceptable. Yet somehow when the president calls them good people that is also unacceptable in the aftermath of their marches.

So apparently they are good people, and not at all deplorable except right after one of them kills someone. And it has to be in a very limited grouping as well, the basic murders of cops and people objecting to them harassing people on trains don't count.
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Old 9th January 2018, 07:58 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
National Socialist is an oxymoron.

How so? I'm not being a smartass, it's a honest question. Obviously, not every Nationalist movement is Socialist but I don't see any reason that such a movement couldn't be. If a party believed in the supremacy of their country as defined by the people of the country it would be very easy to be both a Nationalist and a Socialist.
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Old 9th January 2018, 08:39 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
So are there any conservatives and right-wingers who accept that fascism, Nazism, the KKK and white nationalists are far-right movements?

It seems that conservatives in the west want to claim that the evils associated with the right are really on the left.

For example, a CPAC leader Dan Schneider called the alt-right "left-wing". And a recent PragerU video tried to claim that the alt-right was more like the left than conservatives.

These also books by Jonah Goldberg and Dinesh D'Souza claiming that the Nazis are on the left and the old "KKK were Democrats" cliche.

If these movements aren't far-right, then what is?

I really recommend Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg, it's a very good read and not at all any kind of conservative hit-piece. For anyone actually interested in the book, this link goes to his appearance on BookTV on C-SPAN. Yes, it's three hours long, but he goes over the thesis of his book mostly in the first half hour and I believe it's worth a watch if you have the time.

Anarcho-capitalism would be an example of a far-right movement. Maybe some of the more extreme Libertarian groups could be considered far-right. Anybody that believes that the Constitution goes to far in limiting freedom I personally would consider far-right.

But that's the whole point of the alt-right. It's called the "alternative to the right" for good reason. The best comparative to the alternate to the right movement would probably be the New-Left movement of the 1960s. People like William Ayers, Tom Hayden, Ted Gold, Mark Rudd and others absolutely despised the then current Democratic Party of John Kennedy, Hubert Humphrey, and Henry Jackson. They dedicated their lives to destroying and supplanting the Democratic Party and they succeeded to a large degree. Hopefully, people like Steve Sailer and Richard Spencer aren't as successful.
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Old 9th January 2018, 09:47 PM   #29
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Nazis aren't conservatives, they are Nazis. Hope this helps.
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Old 9th January 2018, 11:22 PM   #30
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All I can say is that I lean to the right and the Nazis and I don’t share any ideology in common.

You could say we are both anti-immigration. But that doesn’t really work because I don’t want to separate myself from certain ethnic and “racial” groups or even to stop immigration. In fact I want those groups to have a place in this nation of immigrants and I strongly support legal immigration. All I want is proper legal immigration, for those who are here illegally to be deported and some border security.

If you examine the issues honestly, it’s easy to see that Nazis and mainstream conservatives actually have nothing in common. They aren’t “far-right,” they are “far-out-wacko.”
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Old 10th January 2018, 12:01 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
All I can say is that I lean to the right and the Nazis and I don’t share any ideology in common.

You could say we are both anti-immigration. But that doesn’t really work because I don’t want to separate myself from certain ethnic and “racial” groups or even to stop immigration. In fact I want those groups to have a place in this nation of immigrants and I strongly support legal immigration. All I want is proper legal immigration, for those who are here illegally to be deported and some border security.

If you examine the issues honestly, it’s easy to see that Nazis and mainstream conservatives actually have nothing in common. They aren’t “far-right,” they are “far-out-wacko.”

That is actually one of the many things that the right has in common with the far right and the Nazis: They all want immigrants out. They all think that immigrants are a major problem. They all think that immigrants are what ruins an otherwise wonderful nation, which is why the nation needs to get rid of these immigrants in order to become great again!
But the right are much more concerned about appearances, about getting rid of immigrants in the proper manner, so they have absolutely nothing in common with alt-right and Nazis. Everybody who thinks that they do must consequently be dishonest, unlike the honest 'mainstream' rightists.
Yeah, right!
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Old 10th January 2018, 12:06 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by cmikes View Post
How so?

Because socialists are internationalists.
Those who called themselves socialists and gave up internationalism remained socialists in name only.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th January 2018, 12:11 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Even Donnie Johnny tries to occasionally issue a statement condemning racism and bigotry.

But only because his advisers manage to persuade him that it looks bad and will hurt him in the polls if he doesn't. However, he usually isn't able to control himself long enough for the impression to last.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 10th January 2018, 12:13 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That is actually one of the many things that the right has in common with the far right and the Nazis: They all want immigrants out.
And white supremacy, that part too.
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Old 10th January 2018, 12:15 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Charting everybody on a single line graph for future reference is like just super important to a lot of people, isn't it?

Making up multi-line graphs to make it appear as if conservatives and Nazis have nothing in common is like just super important to a lot of people, isn't it?
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th January 2018, 12:22 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
And white supremacy, that part too.

That is the answer that a lot of nationalists come up with when they try to figure out what makes some people belong to this wonderful nation and others ... well, not so much: What is the nature of Jews that makes them unsuitable to live in and contribute to a really great nation? Why do some people not make it bigly in spite of the American Dream? (Those lazy, good-for-nothing N-words!) Why do some people think that they are entitled to health care and other basic necessities? (In this respect Hitler was probably to the left of US American (and other) conservatives in some ways: Unlike Mitt Romney, the Nazis actually thought that ordinary people were entitled to health care - unless they were Jews, Gypsies, commies or permanently disabled, of course: Aryans only!) He also didn't approve of polluting the water, which would ruin his fellow Germans and thus the nation. How is the POTUS doing in that comparison? Not so well, I guess, so maybe this is one of the points that can be used if you want to stress the differences between Nazis and conservatives! In some ways the conservatives are actually worse! (And again: unless you are Jewish, Roma, Marxist, disabled ...)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 10th January 2018, 03:24 AM   #37
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I am struggling to understand how on the left/right axis anyone can disagree that the Nazi party should be on the right hand side.

Of course that is not the same as saying that all political parties on the right hand side are Nazi parties.
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Old 10th January 2018, 03:50 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I am struggling to understand how on the left/right axis anyone can disagree that the Nazi party should be on the right hand side.
The reasoning is simple.

The Nazis were National Socialists and therefore are socialists - left wingers in other words. - This is consistent with the view that some conservatives still hold, that Nazis are bad, socialists are bad therefore it's not unreasonable that Nazis are socialists (after all, they cannot be right wing because right-wingers are good).

It's the same reasoning which leads to the conclusion that any country called "People's Democratic Republic" is absolutely and assuredly a democracy
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Old 10th January 2018, 04:12 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
The acronym NAZI stands for "National SOCIALIST ...". If taken literally, far left it is.

And the German founders were against the bourgeois Jews weren't they?
And North Korea is a democracy, it says so right in the name.
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Old 10th January 2018, 04:15 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
They're just a bunch of idiots with no political clout at all. Who cares if they are left or right, are you looking for some kind of guilt by association?

"Can I blame all conservatives for the KKK and neo-Nazis? Can I lump them all together and hate them all?" You can do whatever you feel is right for you.

They love it when we point the fingers at each other instead of the actual bad guys.
Like all those totally never deplorable people at the Unite the Right march. Those are good people damn it, just ask the president.
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