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Old 10th January 2018, 04:17 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Nazis aren't conservatives, they are Nazis. Hope this helps.
And they march under the banner of Uniting the Right. So they certainly self identify as right wing.
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Old 10th January 2018, 04:19 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
And white supremacy, that part too.
Now now, you have to be politically correct when refering to these racists, the proper term is not Ethnonationalists. That makes it all ok.
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Old 10th January 2018, 04:40 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I am struggling to understand how on the left/right axis anyone can disagree that the Nazi party should be on the right hand side.

Of course that is not the same as saying that all political parties on the right hand side are Nazi parties.
Well, they were on the right by virtue of arising in reaction to the left, but they also co-opted rhetoric, policies, etc from the left.
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Old 10th January 2018, 04:41 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I am struggling to understand how on the left/right axis anyone can disagree that the Nazi party should be on the right hand side.

That is why you need a lot of new axes. Then you'll stop struggling, just give up and accept that Nazi is the exact opposite of conservative. On Planet X it probably already is!
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Old 10th January 2018, 04:50 AM   #45
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Nazis are conservative. It's a vital part of their ideology.
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Old 10th January 2018, 04:51 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Well, they were on the right by virtue of arising in reaction to the left, but they also co-opted rhetoric, policies, etc from the left.

... until Hitler had the leaders of the Nazi faction with left-leaning sympathies killed!

Quote:
Under Röhm, the SA also often took the side of workers in strikes and other labor disputes, attacking strikebreakers and supporting picket lines. Ernst Röhm – SA Leader (Wikipedia)
Quote:
Many SA "storm troopers" had working-class origins and expected a radical programme. They were disappointed by the new regime's lack of socialistic direction and its failure to provide the lavish patronage they had expected.
Ernst Röhm – Second Revoluton (Wikipedia)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 10th January 2018, 09:31 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I am struggling to understand how on the left/right axis anyone can disagree that the Nazi party should be on the right hand side.

Of course that is not the same as saying that all political parties on the right hand side are Nazi parties.
We have an alt-right party in the parliament (it used to be more like a mixed-bag populist party, which then split after the 'true' alt-right took power). I classify myself as socially liberal but fiscally conservative, which is the reason I've (somewhat reluctantly) voted for our moderate right party lately. If I compare the policies I favor to the ones favored by our alt-right party, there is practically no overlap. At least in the Finnish political landscape, it's people like me who are diametrically opposed to the alt-right party, not Social Democrats or the Left Alliance (the only non-fringe party to the left of SDs).
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Old 10th January 2018, 09:46 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Charting everybody on a single line graph for future reference is like just super important to a lot of people, isn't it?
Well, it's useful in that you get to neatly categorise people in "us" and "them" categories.

Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I find it funny that conservatives, who think all liberals should be tortured to death, are so concerned with being lumped in with Nazis who actually did what they secretly want.
See what I mean?
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Old 10th January 2018, 10:12 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That is actually one of the many things that the right has in common with the far right and the Nazis: They all want immigrants out. They all think that immigrants are a major problem. They all think that immigrants are what ruins an otherwise wonderful nation, which is why the nation needs to get rid of these immigrants in order to become great again!
But the right are much more concerned about appearances, about getting rid of immigrants in the proper manner, so they have absolutely nothing in common with alt-right and Nazis. Everybody who thinks that they do must consequently be dishonest, unlike the honest 'mainstream' rightists.
Yeah, right!
So what you are saying, in effect, is that despite what I actually believe, what I really want is for all immigrants to be removed from the country? That the Nazis and I share this goal, even though I clearly stated the exact opposite? That I'm somehow being dishonest in my stated policy thoughts?

Why do I even bother posting when you can just tell me what I think?

Suffice to say that you are 100% wrong in your "assessment." But why should I expect anyone on a skeptics site to actually listen to what I'm saying when they can substitute their own biases, irrationality and projections for my actual words?

Look, if you want to engage on my actual stated position and arguments, I'm open to that. But your post there is a perfect example of why we can never have civil, rational discussions.
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Old 10th January 2018, 10:41 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
So what you are saying, in effect, is that despite what I actually believe, what I really want is for all immigrants to be removed from the country? That the Nazis and I share this goal, even though I clearly stated the exact opposite? That I'm somehow being dishonest in my stated policy thoughts?

Why do I even bother posting when you can just tell me what I think?

Suffice to say that you are 100% wrong in your "assessment." But why should I expect anyone on a skeptics site to actually listen to what I'm saying when they can substitute their own biases, irrationality and projections for my actual words?

Look, if you want to engage on my actual stated position and arguments, I'm open to that. But your post there is a perfect example of why we can never have civil, rational discussions.
Wait, you self-identify as 'far-right'? I feel like I've badly been misreading your past posts if that's the case.
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Old 10th January 2018, 10:54 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
So what you are saying, in effect, is that despite what I actually believe, what I really want is for all immigrants to be removed from the country? That the Nazis and I share this goal, even though I clearly stated the exact opposite? That I'm somehow being dishonest in my stated policy thoughts?

Why do I even bother posting when you can just tell me what I think?

Suffice to say that you are 100% wrong in your "assessment." But why should I expect anyone on a skeptics site to actually listen to what I'm saying when they can substitute their own biases, irrationality and projections for my actual words?

Look, if you want to engage on my actual stated position and arguments, I'm open to that. But your post there is a perfect example of why we can never have civil, rational discussions.

What you say is that you are very fond of immigrants, integration etc. but then there's the question of deportation where you would prefer the nice kind:

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
All I want is proper legal immigration, for those who are here illegally to be deported and some border security.
(Maybe a wall?!)

The Nazis probably won't have any objections to your proposal. It's something they can work with.
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Old 10th January 2018, 10:57 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Wait, you self-identify as 'far-right'? I feel like I've badly been misreading your past posts if that's the case.
No . . . I tend to lean right but not on every issue. In my first post, I made clear that I lean right and the point I'm trying to make is that even though I lean right, the Nazis and I are very far apart on the issues, in fact, probably the exact opposite. Immigration is but one example.
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Old 10th January 2018, 10:58 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What you say is that you are very fond of immigrants, integration etc. but then there's the question of deportation where you would prefer the nice kind:

(Maybe a wall?!)

The Nazis probably won't have any objections to your proposal. It's something they can work with.
I'm left-leaning and I'd prefer the nice kind, too. Does that make me a Nazi as well?

Don't we all want the nice ones? Are we all Nazis?
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Old 10th January 2018, 11:03 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What you say is that you are very fond of immigrants, integration etc. but then there's the question of deportation where you would prefer the nice kind:
If I visit Finland, let's say, and overstay my Visa, will I be deported? I'm not sure why wanting immigration laws to be enforced is such a bad thing.

Quote:
(Maybe a wall?!)
I do not support a wall.

Quote:
The Nazis probably won't have any objections to your proposal. It's something they can work with.
The Nazis don't simply want immigration laws to be enforced; they want immigrants removed and a separate "White" only nation. We couldn't be further apart on the issue of immigration. If they are happy with simply enforcing immigration law while still allowing non-whites to coexist in their vision of the country then they wouldn't be White Separatists, would they?
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Old 10th January 2018, 12:00 PM   #55
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What I said was that "The Nazis probably won't have any objections to your proposal. It's something they can work with." They probably won't stop there, their rhetoric is different, but they will consider your proposal a very good beginning!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th January 2018, 12:05 PM   #56
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Jesus guilt by association used to at least require actual association.

Now it's "Guilt by where I graph you on this chart."
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Old 10th January 2018, 12:11 PM   #57
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Oh my! I'm literally Hitler!!
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Old 10th January 2018, 12:14 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What I said was that "The Nazis probably won't have any objections to your proposal. It's something they can work with." They probably won't stop there, their rhetoric is different, but they will consider your proposal a very good beginning!
So what? I mean, really; what's your point here?
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Old 10th January 2018, 12:30 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Nazis are conservative. It's a vital part of their ideology.
So, if I can show that Jeffrey Dahmer voted for Jimmy Carter, will you concede that all Democrats are cannibals?
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Old 10th January 2018, 12:35 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
So, if I can show that Jeffrey Dahmer voted for Jimmy Carter, will you concede that all Democrats are cannibals?
We can show that conservatives hate it when liberals attack nazis, see the whole uproar over calling them deplorable. What about if Jimmy Carter clearly sourced his information from Dahmer? Like Trump does with various nazi sources?

White supremacy under the softer guise of the more politically correct Enthnonationalism was a major force in the last election why are you pretending it wasn't?
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Old 10th January 2018, 12:36 PM   #61
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Ooh! You can show it? Please do.
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Old 10th January 2018, 12:44 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
No . . . I tend to lean right but not on every issue. In my first post, I made clear that I lean right and the point I'm trying to make is that even though I lean right, the Nazis and I are very far apart on the issues, in fact, probably the exact opposite. Immigration is but one example.
I got confused because dann's post, by my reading, was talking about 'something the Nazis and the far-right have in common', but you responded as if it were talking about your commonalities with Nazis. Although now it looks like that might have actually been the intention.

By my estimation, the Nazis are part of the far-right in the context of modern US and probably world politics (this context is important) mostly because of their shared authoritarian and nationalistic leanings. The Nazis want a very extreme and radical version of those things, but those are currently mostly aligned with the right wing. It's a question on which dimensions they align most closely, and not one of total agreement. That 'left-wing' and 'right-wing' are changing and nebulous doesn't mean there way to categorize even if there are counter-examples. (The current right-wing in the US for example differs from the Nazis in that the Nazis esteemed science very highly even if they just wanted to subvert it for their principles and the right is very counter-authoritarian when it comes to environmental and shared resources.)
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Old 10th January 2018, 12:45 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Duh, and therein lies the problem: There was nothing actually socialistic about the NAZIs.
There's the problem with pinning NAZIs as left or right, that's not actually true. A lot of their economic policies were in line with socialist's agenda's exept they didn't want to redistribute anything to non germans.

NAZI ideology was all over the map, the only thing they were consistent on was racism. Hitler said things to the effect of "there is no private property" on one day and "I insist on protecting private property" the next. It was clearly revolutionary which would put it in good standing on the left if not for the elitism and racism. Italian Fascism was more coherent but still as much synthesis of right and left ideologies as clearly a rightist or leftist, it was essentially national socialism. Mossulini having replaced class warfare with class cooperation (albeit, enforced by the state). He created industrial boards with members from the capitalist class and unions but where the state really had the authority. Anyrate, the conservatives have a point and can you blame them for not wanting to be associated with NAZI's?


Side note, its less common but I've heard lefties refer to the soviets and maoists as right wing on account of...I don't know, they did mean things?

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Nazis are conservative. It's a vital part of their ideology.
Nope, NAZI's were and still are radicals, even revolutionaries, that is not generally considered conservative.

Side note, in the 20s and 30 there essentially running street battle between NAZIs and Commies in Germany, this convinced the conservatives that they had to choose between the two so they went with the side that was moderately less antagonistic to the old ways.

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Old 10th January 2018, 12:49 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
There's the problem with pinning NAZIs as left or right, that's not actually true. A lot of their economic policies were in line with socialist's agenda's exept they didn't want to redistribute anything to non germans.

NAZI ideology was all over the map, the only thing they were consistent on was racism. ...snip...
Not really it was a fascist ideology. So the state/nation/homeland came first and all else is subservient to that.
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Old 10th January 2018, 12:55 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not really it was a fascist ideology. So the state/nation/homeland came first and all else is subservient to that.
So it was consistent in two ways nationalist and racist, ok really just one was as that was basically the same thing.

Seriously though, what was their economic policy? What was their religious policy? What was their social policy? What do neo-nazi's think about any or all of that? Hell, the NAZI's were intensely racist but they made common cause with the Japanese and Arabs and name their master race after ancient Indo-Iranians.

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Old 10th January 2018, 12:55 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
(The current right-wing in the US for example differs from the Nazis in that the Nazis esteemed science very highly even if they just wanted to subvert it for their principles and the right is very counter-authoritarian when it comes to environmental and shared resources.)
No. What the Nazis liked was the appearance of science, hence e.g. Aryan Physics.
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Old 10th January 2018, 01:05 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
No . . . I tend to lean right but not on every issue. In my first post, I made clear that I lean right and the point I'm trying to make is that even though I lean right, the Nazis and I are very far apart on the issues, in fact, probably the exact opposite. Immigration is but one example.
Politics is a continuum, so I think what the OP is asking is: even if white supremacists aren't the average Republican, this is the party that has embraced them, so why are some Republicans saying white supremacists are a Democratic Party problem.

I think American Republicans are in the final phase of gelling into a true conservative party. This may be the first generation that has this alignment, and it's been pretty rapid. What the Republicans chose to absorb were the Dixiecrats who were white supremacist / segregationist, and this is layered onto the pre-existing Northern States racists who were members from Day One.

The result is a Republican Party that has adopted a strong Identity Politics of white supremacy.
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Old 10th January 2018, 01:06 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
We can show that conservatives hate it when liberals attack nazis, see the whole uproar over calling them deplorable. What about if Jimmy Carter clearly sourced his information from Dahmer? Like Trump does with various nazi sources?

White supremacy under the softer guise of the more politically correct Enthnonationalism was a major force in the last election why are you pretending it wasn't?
I'm against people being attacked, left or right. I'm not that conservative though, I think that the left is so "left" right now (for the US anyways) that it may seem that way. Even had me fooled for awhile.

I remember Hillary calling half of all Trump voters deplorable. Nothing to do with nazis. Half! That's a lot of racist homophobic whatevers - wow!

Jimmy Carter and Dahmer - okay whatever.

White supremacy - ya that's what I saw on all the campaign signs. That's how a person with a completely closed mind would react to others' caring about illegal immigration.

Must be depressing living in this land of make believe. Anything you'd like to add that you know, actually occurred?

Hillary and Deplorables:
Quote:
“You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right?” Clinton said. “The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic—you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up.”
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Old 10th January 2018, 01:11 PM   #69
Darat
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I'm against people being attacked, left or right. I'm not that conservative though, I think that the left is so "left" right now (for the US anyways) that it may seem that way. Even had me fooled for awhile.

I remember Hillary calling half of all Trump voters deplorable. Nothing to do with nazis. Half! That's a lot of racist homophobic whatevers - wow!

Jimmy Carter and Dahmer - okay whatever.

White supremacy - ya that's what I saw on all the campaign signs. That's how a person with a completely closed mind would react to others' caring about illegal immigration.

Must be depressing living in this land of make believe. Anything you'd like to add that you know, actually occurred?

Hillary and Deplorables:
Are you sure about that?

ETA: just goes to show - I misread your post - sorry for that.
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Old 10th January 2018, 01:14 PM   #70
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So not only does all American politics fall somewhere on a pure Left to Right scale all politics ever of all time do. It is literally impossible to even conceptually conceive of a political ideology anywhere at any time that doesn't support or demonize the current American right or left?

How far down does this rabbit hole go? Are my dog and cats left or right? What about a river depending on which way it flows? What about the very spin of the most basic of molecules that make up the universe?

Surely the Big Bang and Entropic Decay of the universe have political undertones.
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Old 10th January 2018, 01:15 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Are you sure about that?
And I'm not sure she's statistically incorrect, is the thing. The quibbling comes down to: what's a racist, exactly?

Pew polls show that over half of Republicans would agree with at least one statement like: "I don't want my daughter to marry a person of another race," or "Blacks are poor because they are lazy."

Depending on definition of racist, this could qualify. It does in my book, but I get the impression that what some people consider racist, others consider, "just plain common sense," so don't see themselves or their party as leaning that way, thus the offense taken about Clinton's statement.


ETA: here's five thirty eight's compiled statistics: [Are White Republicans More Racist Than White Democrats?]
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Old 10th January 2018, 01:24 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
So not only does all American politics fall somewhere on a pure Left to Right scale all politics ever of all time do. It is literally impossible to even conceptually conceive of a political ideology anywhere at any time that doesn't support or demonize the current American right or left?

How far down does this rabbit hole go? Are my dog and cats left or right? What about a river depending on which way it flows? What about the very spin of the most basic of molecules that make up the universe?

Surely the Big Bang and Entropic Decay of the universe have political undertones.
Not sure what your complaint is - there are many axes on which you can plot different ideologies, the political left to right is just one of them. It certainly does exist and can be a useful tool in the right circumstances.

The only complaint I have in this thread is that it seems to be about either guilt by association e.g. "The Democrat party in the USA is on the right of the left/right axis and so is Nazism" or trying to avoid a perceived guilt by association "Yeah but there is more to a political ideology than the left/right axis"

This is why this thread puzzles me - the answer to "Is Nazism on the right on the left/right axis of political ideologies?" is a straightforward "Yes". I really struggle to understand how the question is a difficult question for anyone.
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Old 10th January 2018, 01:29 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not sure what your complaint is - there are many axes on which you can plot different ideologies, the political left to right is just one of them. It certainly does exist and can be a useful tool in the right circumstances.

The only complaint I have in this thread is that it seems to be about either guilt by association e.g. "The Democrat party in the USA is on the right of the left/right axis and so is Nazism" or trying to avoid a perceived guilt by association "Yeah but there is more to a political ideology than the left/right axis"

This is why this thread puzzles me - the answer to "Is Nazism on the right on the left/right axis of political ideologies?" is a straightforward "Yes". I really struggle to understand how the question is a difficult question for anyone.
And the other frustration is that regardless of where it fits on a left/right, up/down, innie/outie dimensional model, people with those interests are aligned with the Republicans, and the Republicans need to suck it up and either own them or make it clear that they don't want their vote. The current situation is that Republicans curry the white supremacist vote, while denying it. I don't know if it's cognitive dissonance or what.
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Old 10th January 2018, 01:30 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I'm against people being attacked, left or right. I'm not that conservative though, I think that the left is so "left" right now (for the US anyways) that it may seem that way. Even had me fooled for awhile.

I remember Hillary calling half of all Trump voters deplorable. Nothing to do with nazis. Half! That's a lot of racist homophobic whatevers - wow!
And polling data at the time showed that she was correct. I'm not at all sure why it's such a shock that an openly white supremacist candidate would attract support from people who think of black and hispanic people as somehow both lazy and violent, both taking all the benefits because they refuse to get jobs and taking all of the good jobs.

It was actually kind of nice as far as Twitter went - the majority of people who jumped up to spew racial slurs and the like were kind enough to add "Deplorable" to their names, for easy identification.

Quote:
White supremacy - ya that's what I saw on all the campaign signs. That's how a person with a completely closed mind would react to others' caring about illegal immigration.

Must be depressing living in this land of make believe. Anything you'd like to add that you know, actually occurred?
You mean like the Trump supporters who beat protestors, attacked homeless people for being Hispanic, who shout "Trump" in order to attempt to intimidate black and Hispanic people, and who recently marched around dressed like the idiot while beating black people with metal poles, driving cars into nonviolent groups, and shouting slogans like "Jews will not replace us!"?

Like all of that?
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Old 10th January 2018, 02:01 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I'm against people being attacked, left or right. I'm not that conservative though, I think that the left is so "left" right now (for the US anyways) that it may seem that way. Even had me fooled for awhile.
So you must really have hated the past with left wing presidents like Reagan and Nixon.
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Old 10th January 2018, 02:03 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post

You mean like the Trump supporters who beat protestors, attacked homeless people for being Hispanic, who shout "Trump" in order to attempt to intimidate black and Hispanic people, and who recently marched around dressed like the idiot while beating black people with metal poles, driving cars into nonviolent groups, and shouting slogans like "Jews will not replace us!"?

Like all of that?
My favorite is the school kids using his platforms to taunt Hispanic students.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/28/health...ool/index.html

Nothing deplorable there either apparently.
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Old 10th January 2018, 02:14 PM   #77
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I see a lot of viewpoints that have validity but not much acknowledgement of that. Are people getting more judgemental and tribal lately? What is the trend causing this (besides the current obvious one of Trump)?
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Old 10th January 2018, 02:34 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Imhotep View Post
I see a lot of viewpoints that have validity but not much acknowledgement of that. Are people getting more judgemental and tribal lately? What is the trend causing this (besides the current obvious one of Trump)?

From David Wong's 10 Simple Facts to Make You Feel Better About This Election
Quote:
It's a nice reminder that what looks like the apocalypse is simply the latest in a series of cyclical events that each look apocalyptic from the inside. "Americans are more polarized than ever!" says the pundit. "What happened to the unified nation I grew up with? Sure, we had our differences, but we all believed in America!"

Great question. Let's climb into my time machine to go pinpoint when exactly things went wrong. Where do I set the dial to find this nation of good-hearted patriots? Was it the 1960s, when protesters filled the streets and were gunned down by the military? When an actual riot broke out at the Democratic National Convention and a sitting president got his (expletive) head blown off?

Thirty-five years later, our worst problem was a sitting president getting (expletive) blown. Progress!

Not far enough back, you say? How about the glorious post-war years, when black people weren't allowed to even be in the same movie theater as whites, and any career could be ruined by a single accusation of communism? Or was it earlier than that, when women weren't allowed to vote or have careers? Or when the Civil War left 800,000 butchered corpses scattered across the landscape? Or when black people were legally considered cattle?

Unless ... now bear with me, but is it possible you just looked at 2016 America and said, "There's no way it's always been this bad! The system would have fallen apart by now!" without actually checking to see if that statement is true? Because yeah, I think it's kind of always looked like this. Or, you know, worse.



Listen I'm not saying Trump is good nor am I saying that people are tribelized (of course I'm not I'm saying that they are constantly) but I do think it's dangerous to think of it as a new phenomena or that it is getting worse.

Trump is bad, but he's not break the system bad. Andrew Jackson wouldn't have gone to Twitter to talk crap about Hillary, he would have shot her in a duel and beat Trump to death with his hickory stick if he could find the time to take a break from all the genocide.

Things, on every scale and on every level on a long enough time line are getting better.

Yeah we're technically getting more polarized but the scale of things were are polarized over narrows. The extremists are shuffled off to the margins and we continue to fight over the narrower slice of disagreement with the same fervor.
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Old 10th January 2018, 03:22 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Yeah we're technically getting more polarized but the scale of things were are polarized over narrows. The extremists are shuffled off to the margins and we continue to fight over the narrower slice of disagreement with the same fervor.
What's exacerbating this, though, is that the extremists aren't shuffling off to the margins - they're seizing the political apparatus.

There are probably more moderates in the USA now than ever before, but they're not joining political parties. The parties represent a smaller proportion of the population, but are more active.

Part of the cause was the abovementioned crystallization of the Republicans into becoming an actual conservative party, and correspondingly, the Democratic Party shedding its Southern segregationists and becoming a progressive party.

This stronger alignment between party affiliation and ideology has evolved into a more powerful partisanship, where the breakdown has shifted from general disagreement among citizens that you describe above, to borderline dysfunction in government itself.
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Old 10th January 2018, 03:36 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post

Seriously though, what was their economic policy?
Everyone gets a Volkswagen. (Everyone didn't end up getting one)


Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
From David Wong's 10 Simple Facts to Make You Feel Better About This Election





Listen I'm not saying Trump is good nor am I saying that people are tribelized (of course I'm not I'm saying that they are constantly) but I do think it's dangerous to think of it as a new phenomena or that it is getting worse.

Trump is bad, but he's not break the system bad. Andrew Jackson wouldn't have gone to Twitter to talk crap about Hillary, he would have shot her in a duel and beat Trump to death with his hickory stick if he could find the time to take a break from all the genocide.

Things, on every scale and on every level on a long enough time line are getting better.

Yeah we're technically getting more polarized but the scale of things were are polarized over narrows. The extremists are shuffled off to the margins and we continue to fight over the narrower slice of disagreement with the same fervor.


I mentioned that things were a bit worse in 1968 to a complaining millennial type person, and he looked at me like I was nuts. Dude - actual riots and burning down cities was a little worse than someone picking an offensive Twitter photo or whatever.
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