ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags !MOD BOX WARNING!

Reply
Old 11th January 2018, 07:45 AM   #281
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,014
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
There's a fourth group of people you've not acknowledged here.
Yes, that's the important thing right there though given that the anecdote in question was about a man's actions my omission although terrible is at least forgivable.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 07:46 AM   #282
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,199
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Social norm. Not code of conduct. And I already told you were you could find it.





How about you just write down how women should dress, we'll send it out to the women of the World and they'll get back to you about it, ok?




What?

A woman can't want to feel sexy to herself unless she's bi or gay?
Her feeling sexy has to be in context - I think it's unlikely that finds herself sexy. I have certainly never looked in the mirror and found myself aroused by myself. I'm not sure it's possible. So, to feel sexy, she needs to feel sexy to someone. Who is it that she thinks thinks she looks good to to make her feel sexy? There's someone's standard in play and, if she's straight, it can't be hers. Who's does she think she's using?




Quote:
No, I don't think there's an age-range for attraction. I think a 40-year-old passing by a 20 year old on the street, ogling her breasts, is deluding himself if he thinks she's going to get with him.
See, again, you're making things up. I find lots of ladies on telly attractive and I'm never going to get with them. There's a world of difference between ogling and thinking one has a shot.



Quote:
Fewer than you.
But a not insignificant number. And there's certainly no way to discern those that do simply by looking.


Quote:
I'm not saying you're a creep. I'm saying that you are arguing as if basic social norms simply don't exist.
Again, with the disparagement. Do you really think I operate as if 'social norms don't exist'. No. I just have a subtly different view of those norms to you.

I think a person who operate as if social norms don't exist is probably a sociopath.
__________________
Up the River!
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 07:52 AM   #283
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,045
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Does the problem not exist if someone is a hypocrite, is there nothing to be done if someone is a hypocrite? Your argument means that you are saying that the single mother of 2 has to put up with her boss groping her because you think Streep is a hypocrite and therefore we should ignore that the problem pervades society.
Thanks for telling me what my argument means, I was all at a loss for a moment. Let me return the favour and tell you what your argument means.

Your argument means that before a group of over-paid, eminently privileged, child rapist supporting, sexual assault enabling hypocrites stood up and announced that sexual assault in the workplace must stop, nobody had the slightest idea that it was a bad thing. Everyone was just groping and poking away until the Golden Globes, when women across the Western world suddenly realised, "Wait a minute, this constant barrage of unwanted sexual attention is wrong, we really had no idea until Oprah Winfrey told us so!"

Your argument means that there are no laws to deal with these issues in our countries, no policies present in any company's HR regulations, no social stigma attached to bending your secretary over the desk for a quick bash before you send her on her way to make your morning coffee ("Two sugars, sweetheart, and make sure you stir it like I showed you!" thwack!)

Your argument means that we must support every ostensibly valid initiative, regardless of who is behind it and its true motivation.

Or, in a more balanced perspective without the 'your argument means' bumfluffery, I'm fully behind the idea of preventing the sexual harassment of females, and males (an initiative that civilised society has pursued for well over a century), but I give zero credence to a damage-limitation campaign fronted by demonstrable fakers in order to preserve their insanely over-privileged careers and life-styles.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 07:52 AM   #284
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 11,705
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Her feeling sexy has to be in context - I think it's unlikely that finds herself sexy.
Ok, then I can't help you. Ask a woman about it.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I have certainly never looked in the mirror and found myself aroused by myself. I'm not sure it's possible.
Me neither, but not because it's impossible, but simply because I'm, in fact, not sexy. And I'm not talking about arousing myself.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
So, to feel sexy, she needs to feel sexy to someone. Who is it that she thinks thinks she looks good to to make her feel sexy? There's someone's standard in play and, if she's straight, it can't be hers. Who's does she think she's using?
She wants to feel sexy by her own definition of sexy. Is this really important enough to go on about? How about we just drop it?


Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
See, again, you're making things up. I find lots of ladies on telly attractive and I'm never going to get with them. There's a world of difference between ogling and thinking one has a shot.
You think I'm making up believing a 40-year-old thinking he's got a chance with a 20-year-old he passed on the street while ogling her tits is deluding himself?

Well I'm not. I really do believe that.


Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
But a not insignificant number. And there's certainly no way to discern those that do simply by looking.
Do you believe the man in question had serious designs on dating the young woman in question? Or did he simply like to see her tits?


Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Again, with the disparagement. Do you really think I operate as if 'social norms don't exist'. No. I just have a subtly different view of those norms to you.
You argue as if they don't exist, or at least don't apply to you. I'm not making value judgements on you as a person. Just on your argument.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think a person who operate as if social norms don't exist is probably a sociopath.
Yes, I agree.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

Last edited by uke2se; 11th January 2018 at 07:53 AM.
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:01 AM   #285
Spock Jenkins
Muse
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 709
My go to anecdote for discussions like this. Tom Brady on Saturday Night Live a few years ago. How to avoid harassment accusations at work?

Be handsome
Be attractive
Don't be unattractive
Spock Jenkins is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:03 AM   #286
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 11,705
Originally Posted by Spock Jenkins View Post
My go to anecdote for discussions like this. Tom Brady on Saturday Night Live a few years ago. How to avoid harassment accusations at work?

Be handsome
Be attractive
Don't be unattractive
It also helps not to grope your employees.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:07 AM   #287
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
Or look at them.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:09 AM   #288
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,199
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Ok, then I can't help you. Ask a woman about it.
You speak with authority that you then decide you don't actually have?

"Oh," He says, "It's absolutely this way"

"It is, how do you know that?"

"Oh, I don't know it. Women know it. And, while I don't know about it and can't describe it in any way, I am absolutely certain of my conclusions."


If you can't back up your statement, don't make it in the first place.




Quote:
Me neither, but not because it's impossible, but simply because I'm, in fact, not sexy. And I'm not talking about arousing myself.



She wants to feel sexy by her own definition of sexy. Is this really important enough to go on about? How about we just drop it?
No, I think it's a really important part of the equation. She's trying to look sexy, to look unusual in her attractiveness. Who is that for? Is she trying to arouse herself? I think that's impossible for someone not a total narcissist, so whose standards is she using? Who is she trying to please? And is it reasonable for the rest of the world to go out of their way to attempt, somehow, to work out if it's them she's trying to be attractive towards.




Quote:
You think I'm making up believing a 40-year-old thinking he's got a chance with a 20-year-old he passed on the street while ogling her tits is deluding himself?

Well I'm not. I really do believe that.
No, I think you made up the 'got a chance with'. You keep just making stuff up.

The man walked past her. He didn't hit on her. You've just added that bit out of new cloth. As I say, we're allowed to find attractive people that are never in a million years going to sleep with us. That's a large portion of the whole foundation of the film industry there.[quote]




Quote:
Do you believe the man in question had serious designs on dating the young woman in question? Or did he simply like to see her tits?
He liked to see tits. Most men do, it's inherent in the male condition.


Quote:
You argue as if they don't exist, or at least don't apply to you. I'm not making value judgements on you as a person. Just on your argument.
They entirely apply to me. I just have lines in a different place to you. And it's not as if we're miles apart. You think a sly little, devious glance at a lady is acceptable. I however, think a more honest, full on looking is acceptable. We both agree on everything over and above that. Hell we agree that we're allowed to look,, we're just disagreeing on how obvious that looking is.

You know, some ladies in low cut top would think themselves having a lousy day if no-one looked, don't you?



Quote:
Yes, I agree.
Yeah, and you keep trying to put me in that category. Please stop.
__________________
Up the River!

Last edited by 3point14; 11th January 2018 at 08:12 AM.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:10 AM   #289
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 43,464
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It also helps not to grope your employees.
Why can't you put the moves on them?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:11 AM   #290
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 82,081
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Thanks for telling me what my argument means, I was all at a loss for a moment. Let me return the favour and tell you what your argument means.

...snip....
No - you see my summary of what your argument is was based on the argument you actually posted. I.e.

"I pay no heed to a campaign fronted and backed by the very people who enabled the bad behaviour in the first place..."
Those were your words.

This campaign as you label it is about stopping the likes of a single mother of two having to put up with groping from her boss because she needs the job.

You then went on to explain that you dismiss it because:
"...one day cheerleading for a child rapist, the next calling a known sexual predator 'God', the next day dressed all in black, dewy-eyed for the trauma suffered by females in Hollywood and determined that this stops here. ..."
That seems like a very clear accusation of hypocrisy.

Therefore you are dismissing a campaign that is meant to stop a single mother of 2 having to put up with being groped by her boss because she needs the income from her job because of the hypocrisy of one person you have decided represents the campaign.

That is what you posted.

Now your counterclaim of the argument I've made fails immediately as I didn't make any such argument. The rest of your post is simply something you've pulled out of your backside.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:12 AM   #291
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,620
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Nope. It makes someone a pervert to oogle boobs that he happens to see in public but clearly weren't put on display for him. It makes him an ******* to then slut-shame the woman berating him for his perverted behavior.
How is this determined, given that telepathy has not yet been achieved? Actually, when telepathy is achieved, presumably we'll be discussing, "people having their minds read by those they don't want reading them..."

Last edited by Information Analyst; 11th January 2018 at 09:00 AM.
Information Analyst is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:16 AM   #292
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,045
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No - you see my summary of what your argument is was based on the argument you actually posted. I.e.

"I pay no heed to a campaign fronted and backed by the very people who enabled the bad behaviour in the first place..."
Those were your words.

This campaign as you label it is about stopping the likes of a single mother of two having to put up with groping from her boss because she needs the job.

You then went on to explain that you dismiss it because:
"...one day cheerleading for a child rapist, the next calling a known sexual predator 'God', the next day dressed all in black, dewy-eyed for the trauma suffered by females in Hollywood and determined that this stops here. ..."
That seems like a very clear accusation of hypocrisy.

Therefore you are dismissing a campaign that is meant to stop a single mother of 2 having to put up with being groped by her boss because she needs the income from her job because of the hypocrisy of one person you have decided represents the campaign.

That is what you posted.

Now your counterclaim of the argument I've made fails immediately as I didn't make any such argument. The rest of your post is simply something you've pulled out of your backside.
All that nonsense would have been avoided if you'd read my post rather than skimming the first couple of paragraphs in an over-eager rush to formulate your outrage.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:18 AM   #293
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 11,705
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
You speak with authority that you then decide you don't actually have?

"Oh," He says, "It's absolutely this way"

"It is, how do you know that?"

"Oh, I don't know it. Women know it. And, while I don't know about it and can't describe it in any way, I am absolutely certain of my conclusions."


If you can't back up your statement, don't make it in the first place.






No, I think it's a really important part of the equation. She's trying to look sexy, to look unusual in her attractiveness. Who is that for? Is she trying to arouse herself? I think that's impossible for someone not a total narcissist, so who's standards is she using? Who is she trying to please? And is it reasonable for the rest of the world to go out of their way to attempt, somehow, to work out if it's them she's trying to be attractive towards.
I'm unilaterally dropping it.




Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
No, I think you made up the 'got a chance with'. You keep just making stuff up.
This is what you quoted that you Think I was making up:

Quote:
No, I don't think there's an age-range for attraction. I think a 40-year-old passing by a 20 year old on the street, ogling her breasts, is deluding himself if he thinks she's going to get with him.
Which part of that quote do you think I made up?

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The man walked past her. He didn't hit on her. You've just added that bit out of new cloth. As I say, we're allowed to find attractive people that are never in a million years going to sleep with us. That's a large portion of the whole foundation of the film industry there.
He did a bit more than walk past her, or we wouldn't be having this conversation. I agree, he didn't hit on her. He ogled her.



Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
He liked to see tits. Most men do, it's inherent in the male condition.
And most women want to show them to men they themselves select. If you catch a cheeky glance anyway, prepare to be told off.



Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
They entirely apply to me. I just have lines in a different place to you. And it's not as if we're miles apart. You think a sly little, devious glance at a lady is acceptable.
No, I don't think it's acceptable. I think that's what we're going to do regardless of whether it's acceptable or not, and I'm fully prepared to fess up and apologize for my behavior when I get caught.


Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I however, think a more honest, full on looking is acceptable. We both agree on everything over and above that. Hell we agree that we're allowed to look,, we're just disagreeing on how obvious that looking is.
Yes, we agree that we're allowed to look. I, however, think the woman has every right to disallow me from looking if she so choses, and that looking is something I do that goes beyond what is socially acceptable.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
You know, some ladies in low cut top would think themselves having a lousy day if no-one looked, don't you?
No, I don't know that. I know many men think that's what women think, but I haven't met any woman who has told me that's what she thinks.


Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Yeah, and you keep trying to put me in that category. Please stop.
I'm really not. I don't know how much clearer I can be about that. I'm not talking about you as a person. Any personal similarities you draw from my posts is unintended by me.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:19 AM   #294
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 11,705
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
How is this determined, given that telepathy has not yet been achieved? Actually, when telepathy is achieved, presumably we'll be discussing, "people having their minds read by those they don't want to read them..."
My general rule is "Do I know they are there for me?" If can't answer in the affirmative, the default is "no".
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:21 AM   #295
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 82,081
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why can't you put the moves on them?
Imbalance of power - it is a recognised and quite well described human behaviour probably hardwired so to speak as part of our evolution as a social species. ETA: Good starting place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obedie...uman_behavior)
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you

Last edited by Darat; 11th January 2018 at 08:22 AM.
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:27 AM   #296
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 82,081
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
...snip...

And most women want to show them to men they themselves select. If you catch a cheeky glance anyway, prepare to be told off.

...snip...
I have zero sexual attraction to or interest in female breasts yet I will see and look at them when they are "on display" - I have no way of self-censoring what my eyes pick up.

You really do seem to be saying that we can't even look at each other's secondary sexual characteristics without prior consent? Can't you see how silly that notion is?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:30 AM   #297
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 11,705
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I have zero sexual attraction to or interest in female breasts yet I will see and look at them when they are "on display" - I have no way of self-censoring what my eyes pick up.

You really do seem to be saying that we can't even look at each other's secondary sexual characteristics without prior consent? Can't you see how silly that notion is?
No, I'm not saying we can't. I'm saying we should recognize that we are doing something that the person we ogle might find unacceptable and not have a hissy fit if they tell us off. A simple "I apologize, I have no control over what my eyes do" would be a sufficient, if slightly dishonest, apology.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:30 AM   #298
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,199
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'm unilaterally dropping it.
Which is a shame, because it's a really important part of the equation. One can either dress to attract all straight men or dress to attract no men. You seem to think it's somehow possible to dress to be sexy only to people that one finds attractive. You also seem to think that if someone other than those found attractive notice the sexy dress and show they've noticed it, that's somehow the crime of 'looking at a woman while not being attractive to her.'

As I say, I don't think you know what you're on about with this at all, as evidenced by your "I don't know, ask a woman."




Quote:
This is what you quoted that you Think I was making up:



Which part of that quote do you think I made up?
The whole prospect of a relationship thing. We're discussing looking and then you decide we're talking about a man who thinks he has a shot with a woman half his age. You made that up. I should have ignored it in the first place. The discussion is one of looking, not of hitting on.



Quote:
He did a bit more than walk past her, or we wouldn't be having this conversation. I agree, he didn't hit on her. He ogled her.
He looked at her in a way she didn't like. He kept walking. She yelled at his back.



Quote:
And most women want to show them to men they themselves select. If you catch a cheeky glance anyway, prepare to be told off.
You realise that's impossible, right? You're either shown off to the whole world or you're not. Again, there's no top you can buy that's low cut to the hot people and neck high to the munters. It's one choice for your day, one look to present to everyone. The wearer only gets to select one outfit for the day.





Quote:
No, I don't think it's acceptable. I think that's what we're going to do regardless of whether it's acceptable or not, and I'm fully prepared to fess up and apologize for my behavior when I get caught.
Jesus, I'm not. I will do in the case of a lady with exceptional assets and a regular top, at that point I'll try not to look and feel embarrassed if found out, but - and this is getting boring - that's not we're talking about. We're talking about:

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
very revealing tops with a neckline that plunged almost to their belly buttons.
I feel no guilt in looking at what's been so blatantly displayed.



Quote:
Yes, we agree that we're allowed to look. I, however, think the woman has every right to disallow me from looking if she so choses, and that looking is something I do that goes beyond what is socially acceptable.
If you can't read her mind, how do you know if she wants you to look or not? You can only find out when you've done it, then it's too late. Your standards are impossible.



Quote:
No, I don't know that. I know many men think that's what women think, but I haven't met any woman who has told me that's what she thinks.
Ask about, you'd be suprised.



Quote:
I'm really not. I don't know how much clearer I can be about that. I'm not talking about you as a person. Any personal similarities you draw from my posts is unintended by me.
And yet it keeps happening.
__________________
Up the River!

Last edited by 3point14; 11th January 2018 at 08:32 AM.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:35 AM   #299
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 11,705
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The whole prospect of a relationship thing. We're discussing looking and then you decide we're talking about a man who thinks he has a shot with a woman half his age. You made that up. I should have ignored it in the first place. The discussion is one of looking, not of hitting on.
I didn't make it up. We were drifting in and out of situations where the guy in the story might have had more than a casual sexual interest in the woman.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
He looked at her in a way she didn't like. He kept walking. She yelled at his back.
Yes, and then?

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
You realise that's impossible, right? You're either shon off to the whole world or you're not.
No, it's not a binary system. Things shift. Sometimes without you knowing.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Again, there's no top you can buy that's low cut to the hot people and neck high to the munters. It's one choice for your day, one look to present to everyone. The wearer only gets to select one outfit for the day.
What if the woman selected her top based on the color and how it feels to wear?


Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Jesus, I'm not. I will do in the case of a lady with exceptional assets and a regular top, at that point I'll try not to look and feel embarrassed if found out, but - and this is getting boring - that's not we're talking about. We're talking about:



I feel no guilt in looking at what's been so blatantly displayed.
And I do.


Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
If you can't read her mind, how do you know if she wants you to look or not? You can only find out when you've done it, then it's too late. Your standards are impossible.
Assume no.



Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Ask about, you'd be suprised.
You too.


Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
And yet it keeps happening.
That's completely beyond my control.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:40 AM   #300
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 82,081
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No, I'm not saying we can't. I'm saying we should recognize that we are doing something that the person we ogle might find unacceptable and not have a hissy fit if they tell us off. A simple "I apologize, I have no control over what my eyes do" would be a sufficient, if slightly dishonest, apology.
What would I be apologising for?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:40 AM   #301
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,620
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Aren't one a teenager when in the late teens? I could have said "young woman".
A teenager by definition is someone aged 13-19. There's a world of difference between reacting in the manner described to a 13-15 year old and a 16-19 years old (i.e. over the age of consent in most jurisdictions), notwithstanding the fact the boundary between the two is fuzzy on account of the fact that nobody goes around with a badge declaring their age. The fact that Smartcooky said "late teens early 20's" sugests closer to 18/19 than 13/14, so you saying only "teenagers" is unnecessarily loaded.
Quote:
My point was, it's unlikely she was out scoping for middle-aged men, and he should not have assumed she was.
Appeal to incredulity.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 11th January 2018 at 08:41 AM.
Information Analyst is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:40 AM   #302
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No, I'm not saying we can't. I'm saying we should recognize that we are doing something that the person we ogle might find unacceptable and not have a hissy fit if they tell us off.
How about you don't throw a hissy fit when someone just looks at you?

Quote:
A simple "I apologize, I have no control over what my eyes do" would be a sufficient, if slightly dishonest, apology.
Slightly dishonest? In what way?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:41 AM   #303
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 11,705
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What would I be apologising for?
Makin the other person uncomfortable. It's not as hard to say "I'm sorry" as the song says, and it makes everyone a little less sad.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:42 AM   #304
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 11,705
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
A teenager by definition is someone aged 13-19. There's a world of difference between reacting in the manner described to a 13-15 year old and a 16-19 years old (i.e. over the age of consent in most jurisdictions), notwithstanding the fact the boundary between the two is fuzzy on account of the fact that nobody goes around with a badge declaring their age. The fact that Smartcooky said "late teens early 20's" sugests closer to 18/19 than 13/14, so you saying only "teenagers" is unnecessarily loaded.
Fair enough. I've changed my wording since you pointed it out.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Appeal to incredulity.
No.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:42 AM   #305
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,014
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I have zero sexual attraction to or interest in female breasts yet I will see and look at them when they are "on display" - I have no way of self-censoring what my eyes pick up.

You really do seem to be saying that we can't even look at each other's secondary sexual characteristics without prior consent? Can't you see how silly that notion is?
IMO there's a big difference between "seeing" and "picking up" and what the anecdote which triggered all of this, and 3point14's point which is.

If someone's breasts are on display (however we wish to define that), then it's perfectly acceptable to stare at them, indeed even after you've walked past them to turn your head around to continue to stare at them, and if challenged by that individual to stop doing so, say that it's their fault for dressing so provocatively.

It's not the noticing or the looking or indeed the being sexually excited (if that's what happens) that's the problem IMO, it's the IMO rudeness of staring for an extended period, at someone's secondary sexual characteristics.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:43 AM   #306
Pterodactyl
Muse
 
Pterodactyl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 976
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Yeah, it's only those celebs who are involved. It has absolutely no other ramifications.

No. Im talking about everyday people. They want to be like the celebrities. The actual celebrity cases (Ailes, Weinstein, et al) that started this had merit. But hear me out.

When judging the actions of others "There's a little game I play", where I find it advantageous to go ahead and presume the most cynical and superficial of motivations to explain their behaviors. This is particularly true of Americans IMO. It is most often accurate and saves a lot of time.

Then you take into account Facebook (where this thing has spawned). The entire platform serves primarily as a hotbed of validation seeking, narcissism, and self righteousness.

Just look at the name of the movement. It's all spelled out for us.
#MeToo. Me, Me,Me. What about me? "Someone looked at my boobs one time. Same as rape!"
Why not #EndSexualAssault, or #****thatguy!, instead it's "LOOK AT ME!"

I question the motivations of people who go to facebook instead of the police or the HR department. Yes, I do recognize in some cases that this was done. Im not talking about those people.


Edited by Loss Leader:  Edited for Rule 10. Do not try to defeat the autocensor.

Last edited by Loss Leader; 11th January 2018 at 03:22 PM.
Pterodactyl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:43 AM   #307
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,620
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I don't think men will ever be terrified to react to those women. I certainly am not.
How do you know the difference between that group of women and less receptive groups of women?
Information Analyst is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:45 AM   #308
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 17,089
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
"He looked at her in a way she didn't like. He kept walking. She yelled at his back."
Yes, and then?
Exactly.

And? She yelled at him.

Let's take all this energy that has been wasted on trying to justify men's rights to ogle (I spelled it right) women's breasts, and apply it to defending the woman's right to get pissed at him for it.

Nope, only men are allowed to respond to stimulus. Women can't.

Nobody got arrested, nobody got sued. Supposedly, women got mad and yelled at him. It's awful! The world is out of control! How we ever handle it?
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Gidget, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:46 AM   #309
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 11,705
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
No. Im talking about everyday people. They want to be like the celebrities. The actual celebrity cases (Ailes, Weinstein, et al) that started this had merit. But hear me out.

When judging the actions of others "There's a little game I play", where I find it advantageous to go ahead and presume the most cynical and superficial of motivations to explain their behaviors. This is particularly true of Americans IMO. It is most often accurate and saves a lot of time.

Then you take into account Facebook (where this thing has spawned). The entire platform serves primarily as a hotbed of validation seeking, narcissism, and self righteousness.

Just look at the name of the movement. It's all spelled out for us.
#MeToo. Me, Me,Me. What about me? "Someone looked at my boobs one time. Same as rape!"
Why not #EndSexualAssault, or #****thatguy!, instead it's "LOOK AT ME!"

I question the motivations of people who go to facebook instead of the police or the HR department. Yes, I do recognize in some cases that this was done. Im not talking about those people.
Let me inform you about how #metoo is in another country, then. In Sweden, several huge calls from various vocational groups have gone up, and women from all walks of life have had a chance to tell their story, sometimes anonymously, sometimes not. In just my own field, 4000 lawyers, prosecutors and other employees at courts spoke out about conditions in the judicial world, and what they told wasn't pretty.


Edited by Loss Leader:  Quote edited to conform
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

Last edited by Loss Leader; 11th January 2018 at 03:23 PM.
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:49 AM   #310
Pterodactyl
Muse
 
Pterodactyl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 976
Sweden, eh?

Pics or it didn't happen.
Pterodactyl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:49 AM   #311
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,620
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
As a married 50 year old, I wouldn't be looking to "hook up" with anyone, and certainly not a woman in her late teens or early 20s but unmarried early-20s me might have been tempted to engage one or both girls in conversation (though if they were, as they seem to be, Mean Girls then I'd likely have slunk off afterwards, tail between legs, because I doubt that I was the kind of young man or woman they were seeking to attract, if they were trying to attract someone with their clothing).
I've found in recent months that women - even young and attractive ones - suddenly seem very keen to engage in unprompted conversation while I'm at the swimming pool. Sadly, I am fully aware that it's only because I have Miss Analyst jnr. with me, and that she is both very cute (still not sure how that happened!) and impressively comfortable in the water for her 10 months.
Information Analyst is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:50 AM   #312
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 11,705
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Exactly.

And? She yelled at him.

Let's take all this energy that has been wasted on trying to justify men's rights to ogle (I spelled it right) women's breasts, and apply it to defending the woman's right to get pissed at him for it.

Nope, only men are allowed to respond to stimulus. Women can't.

Nobody got arrested, nobody got sued. Supposedly, women got mad and yelled at him. It's awful! The world is out of control! How we ever handle it?
There was one more thing that happened in the story.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:52 AM   #313
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Makin the other person uncomfortable.
This comment makes me uncomfortable. Will you apologise?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:54 AM   #314
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,199
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I didn't make it up. We were drifting in and out of situations where the guy in the story might have had more than a casual sexual interest in the woman.
You might be. I'm not. I'm dealing with the situation as described, where he was son in her face she had to yell at his back as he was walking away from him. It demonstrates that there was no thought of any sort of a relationship. He didn't hit on her, he looked at her. That's what I've been discussing throughout. It's you that has been trying to discuss a totally different situation.


Quote:
Yes, and then?
After she aggressively yelled at him and tried to shame him in public? He yelled back. If one does not want confrontation, one should not initiate confrontation. Fairly basic rule of life.


Quote:
No, it's not a binary system. Things shift. Sometimes without you knowing.
No it bloody doesn't. If one doesn't get changed then one presents oneself the same to everyone one meets in the day. It is in no way mutable.



Quote:
What if the woman selected her top based on the color and how it feels to wear?
Then she really should have thought about what it looks like to the world., shouldn't she. I like my pyjamas, they're a lovely colour and they feel fantastic to wear. I wouldn't go out in them without being noticed and appearing on whatever the UK equivalent of people at WalMart is.



Quote:
And I do.




Assume no.
That's contrary to the impression she's giving by her clothing, so no, I'm not assuming no. I'm assuming no to touching, I'm assuming no to taking advantage. I'm not assuming no to actual interaction, to approaching and saying hi, until told no, that option is open. And I'm certainly not assuming no at the prospect of looking at another human being, which is what you're saying is unacceptable.





Quote:
You too.




That's completely beyond my control.
It's really not. Just stick to the scenario described and it won't happen.
__________________
Up the River!
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 08:58 AM   #315
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,620
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Yes, that's the important thing right there though given that the anecdote in question was about a man's actions my omission although terrible is at least forgivable.
No, it's not the most important thing, but if you move beyond women objecting to the attention of certain men to include women objecting to attention from other women and men objectign to the attention of other men, but don't include men objecting to the attention of certain women, it jars.

A lot of this seems to be grounded in a rather archaic view that (straight) female sexuality is a castle under constant assault from the "wrong" sort of men and women.
Information Analyst is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 09:01 AM   #316
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,620
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
My general rule is "Do I know they are there for me?" If can't answer in the affirmative, the default is "no".
Totally subjective.
Information Analyst is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 09:05 AM   #317
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,199
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IMO there's a big difference between "seeing" and "picking up" and what the anecdote which triggered all of this, and 3point14's point which is.

If someone's breasts are on display (however we wish to define that), then it's perfectly acceptable to stare at them,
Yes.

Quote:
indeed even after you've walked past them to turn your head around to continue to stare at them,
Not sure where that bit come from. This is the scenario described:


"Two young women (late teens early 20's) were sitting on a footpath bench, chatting. Both were wearing, shall we say, very revealing tops with a neckline that plunged almost to their belly buttons. A man (white male in his 40's as it happens) walks past, looks down at them and gets an eye-full. As he walks away, one of the women stands up and yells something like..."

You've added a bit. Why do people keep adding bits?


Quote:
and if challenged by that individual to stop doing so, say that it's their fault for dressing so provocatively.
Sort of - if aggressively yelled at and called a pervert in public, a man ha a right to yell back.


Quote:
It's not the noticing or the looking or indeed the being sexually excited (if that's what happens) that's the problem IMO, it's the IMO rudeness of staring for an extended period, at someone's secondary sexual characteristics.
By 'extended period of time' I'm thinking for long enough for one person to walk past another in the street. No deviation of course, no looking back over the shoulder, no hitting on anyone. Looking - okay, staring if you like - while walking past.
__________________
Up the River!
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 09:06 AM   #318
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,620
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No.
Sure it is. People get off with others when there is a 20 (or more) year age difference all the time. It is a thing that happens. Even I've done it. It can't be hand-waved away as if the situation has a big flashing "THIS NEVER HAPPENS" caption.
Information Analyst is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 09:08 AM   #319
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 6,159
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Then you take into account Facebook (where this thing has spawned). The entire platform serves primarily as a hotbed of validation seeking, narcissism, and self righteousness.

Just look at the name of the movement. It's all spelled out for us.
#MeToo. Me, Me,Me. What about me? "Someone looked at my boobs one time. Same as rape!"
Why not #EndSexualAssault, or #****thatguy!, instead it's "LOOK AT ME!"
If it's a hashtag, then you can probably assume that it actually spawned on Twitter. Hashtags do work on Facebook and other social networking sites as well, but they started out on Twitter and that's where they're most common.

Any time I see some group with a hash tag attached, like #metoo, I assume it's a Twitter thing and I can thus ignore it. I'm usually right.

Last edited by Loss Leader; 11th January 2018 at 03:23 PM.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 09:15 AM   #320
Ron_Tomkins
Satan's Helper
 
Ron_Tomkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 42,613
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
All this reminds me of an incident that happened right outside my shop one sunny afternoon.

Two young women (late teens early 20's) were sitting on a footpath bench, chatting. Both were wearing, shall we say, very revealing tops with a neckline that plunged almost to their belly buttons. A man (white male in his 40's as it happens) walks past, looks down at them and gets an eye-full. As he walks away, one of the women stands up and yells something like...

"What are you *********** gawking at, pervert!" The guy stopped in his tracks, turned around and walked right back to her, looking straight down her cleavage. "Only looking at what you're asking me to Honey! If you don't like men looking down your blouse, wear a *********** polo-neck!" She was stunned - he turned and walked away.

Its a sentiment I found difficult to agree disagree with.
Yeah, in that specific case, the man is right because he wasn't doing anything other than looking at what was there in public (He wasn't peeking into her bathroom window while she was showering in her house)

But I can see how a lot of people will equate that to men that walk behind women on the street and yell nasty things at them, which is a completely different case.
__________________
"I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan"

Carl Sagan
Ron_Tomkins is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:49 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.