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Tags Earthquake. AQUIFERS , LANDFILL liners , New Madrid , survival.

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Old 23rd September 2022, 04:26 AM   #1
Crazy Chainsaw
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Landfill vs Aquafer.

I know this is probably not the place too ask but are there any Papers available on Modern Landfills Surviving New Madrid Style earthquakes in the Eastern United States or simular Regions in the world?
My local County is proposing a new Landfill in a Zone including a Drinking water Aquifer with several wells, and springs?
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Old 23rd September 2022, 05:15 AM   #2
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What's an earthquake going to do? Make the landfill fall over?
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Old 23rd September 2022, 05:18 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What's an earthquake going to do? Make the landfill fall over?
Create cracks that lets landfill junk into the aquifer?
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Old 23rd September 2022, 05:26 AM   #4
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Landfill vs aquifer? I'd bet the landfill wins.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 05:35 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Create cracks that lets landfill junk into the aquifer?
I can't find one paper on a Landfill surving an earthquake centered on the New Madrid Fault in Missouri, and shaking people off their Horses in New York city New York.

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Old 23rd September 2022, 05:39 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Create cracks that lets landfill junk into the aquifer?
Exactly keep in mind this is an east cost earthquake Zone, all the studies of Landfill survival have been west coast land fills on new Rock not Old Rock.
It's been over two hundred years since the New Madrid Earthquake but one is due anytime. This looks like an Unreasonable and Unwarranted experiment with the Lives and Property of the People of Hancock County Kentucky.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 05:42 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Landfill vs aquifer? I'd bet the landfill wins.
http://www.hancockclarion.com/2022/0...ublic-hearing/
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Old 23rd September 2022, 06:55 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
I know this is probably not the place too ask but are there any Papers available on Modern Landfills Surviving New Madrid Style earthquakes in the Eastern United States or simular Regions in the world?
My local County is proposing a new Landfill in a Zone including a Drinking water Aquifer with several wells, and springs?
What are the chances of an aquifer surviving an earth quake?

Here is a paper on aquifers and the Old Lisbon earthquake. (The nearest I could come to New Madrid.)

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley....9/2019JB017753
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Old 23rd September 2022, 07:11 AM   #9
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Have any independent environmental engineers criticized the design, or is this more ike a bunch of people freaking over fluoridation of the public water supply?
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Old 23rd September 2022, 07:38 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Create cracks that lets landfill junk into the aquifer?
I think it would have to be on the fault line itself... But then the aquifer probably isn't on the fault line either.

ETA: I take that back. I just read the abstract of the paper Planigale linked, and it turns out I have no idea what I'm talking about.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 08:22 AM   #11
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How deep below the surface is the water, relative to the proposed landfill? Directly on top? How much fill is in place to filter decomposing solid waste before it hits the water table? Are we pretty sure all this has not been taken into account already?
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Old 23rd September 2022, 10:52 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
How deep below the surface is the water, relative to the proposed landfill? Directly on top? How much fill is in place to filter decomposing solid waste before it hits the water table? Are we pretty sure all this has not been taken into account already?
It's a landfill that may be built dirrectly on top of an Aquifer the Only environmental engineer involved works for the company wanting too build the Landfill.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 11:29 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
How deep below the surface is the water, relative to the proposed landfill? Directly on top? How much fill is in place to filter decomposing solid waste before it hits the water table? Are we pretty sure all this has not been taken into account already?

It's a shallow well Aquifer it provides water for 3 schools within 1 mile, and the City of Lewisport Kentucky . Most wells are less that 200ft deep.
Sandy River Bottom.land, easily Liquefies in earth quakes.
There is no available information on a modern landfill surviving an Earthquake Like the Big 1811-1812 New Madrid Quaken on land with the morphology.
So there is no credible data that any plan will work.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...arthquake.html

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Old 23rd September 2022, 11:42 AM   #14
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Just googling "Landfill Seismic Standards" gets a ton of results.

This one pops up most often:
RCRA SUBTITLE D (258): SEISMIC DESIGN GUIDANCE FOR MUNICIPAL SOLID WASTE LANDFILL FACILITIES

Another version


So what you would need to do is to show that the proposal does not meet those standards. In your case, that would be most likely to happen if they reject the probability of the New Madrid earthquake having a repeat - and it would seem plausible for them to do that considering how long it has been since the last quake and the added cost of engineering to accommodate such a quake.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 11:57 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
It's a landfill that may be built dirrectly on top of an Aquifer the Only environmental engineer involved works for the company wanting too build the Landfill.
You think maybe they hired the guy to make sure their design meets regulatory requirements? Probably a lot cheaper to have this guy on the payroll than to have to pay fines and lose stock value down the road.

I can't decide if it's an ad hom or poisoning the well, what you're doing.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 12:29 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
It's a landfill that may be built dirrectly on top of an Aquifer the Only environmental engineer involved works for the company wanting too build the Landfill.
I presume the proposal and design are reviewed by the county board of health among other agencies, yes?
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Old 23rd September 2022, 12:33 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You think maybe they hired the guy to make sure their design meets regulatory requirements? Probably a lot cheaper to have this guy on the payroll than to have to pay fines and lose stock value down the road.

I can't decide if it's an ad hom or poisoning the well, what you're doing.
They hired the Guy to Promote a landfill too the County Fiscal Court, the only plan is a Geodesic Liner, plastic Liner, and monitoring.
There is not proof such a design would hold up in a New Madrid style earth Quake that the United States Geological survey says in Inevitable.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 12:34 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I presume the proposal and design are reviewed by the county board of health among other agencies, yes?
No I need a Laughing dog for this.
State Solid waste is in control.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 12:43 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
No I need a Laughing dog for this.
State Solid waste is in control.
Not sure how KY works, but here in NJ, anything within a certain radius of public or private water supplies is subject to Board of Health engineering/ impact review?
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Old 23rd September 2022, 02:05 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not sure how KY works, but here in NJ, anything within a certain radius of public or private water supplies is subject to Board of Health engineering/ impact review?
Not here state Department of water handles it all.
http://eec.ky.gov/Environmental-Prot...s/default.aspx
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Old 23rd September 2022, 02:33 PM   #21
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How many landfills are already within that aquifer?

Where has your trash been going?
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Old 23rd September 2022, 05:15 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Landfill vs aquifer? I'd bet the landfill wins.
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
How many landfills are already within that aquifer?

Where has your trash been going?
There is one old County Landfill miles away from the Aquifer, the trash is going out of County, too another Landfill not on an Aquifer. The plan for this land Fill is too bring Trash not from the County in on Trains for profit.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 05:22 PM   #23
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So you're worried the liners will rupture in a major quake?
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Old 24th September 2022, 02:32 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So you're worried the liners will rupture in a major quake?
Seeing Landfill liners can Rupture in Major Earthquakes it is a likely scenario, and the New Madrid, and Wabash Faults are close by. No one can predict how the Landfill will react because the data on east cost Quakes of this magnitude is non existant.
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Old 24th September 2022, 06:58 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Seeing Landfill liners can Rupture in Major Earthquakes it is a likely scenario, and the New Madrid, and Wabash Faults are close by. No one can predict how the Landfill will react because the data on east cost Quakes of this magnitude is non existant.
Make up your mind. First you say liners rupturing is likely, then you say there's no data. Which is it? How likely is it that landfill liners will rupture in a quake? Is there any data at all about this?
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Old 25th September 2022, 05:29 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Make up your mind. First you say liners rupturing is likely, then you say there's no data. Which is it? How likely is it that landfill liners will rupture in a quake? Is there any data at all about this?
There is data from California and Arkansas about liners failures, but not in New Madrid size events or on the east coast.
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Old 25th September 2022, 05:52 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
There is data from California and Arkansas about liners failures, but not in New Madrid size events or on the east coast.
So use that data? Why would there be liner data about an event liners have never been through?
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Old 25th September 2022, 02:23 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So use that data? Why would there be liner data about an event liners have never been through?
Exactly the Largest Event in the 48 states was New Madrid, nothing else even comes close.
So their is no way to Guarantee their will not be a tear in the liner with an 8.6 to 8.9 event.
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Old 25th September 2022, 02:28 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Exactly the Largest Event in the 48 states was New Madrid, nothing else even comes close.
So their is no way to Guarantee their will not be a tear in the liner with an 8.6 to 8.9 event.
There's no way to guarantee anything. This sounds like you're trying to work backwards from a pre-selected conclusion, to some kind of rationalization for just doing what you already decided should be done anyway.

You're just looking for a scientifical way to tell your policy makers that they can't have a landfill without a perfect liner.

You're not even interested in actual data about actual liners. Data that might already address your ostensible concern.
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Old 25th September 2022, 02:56 PM   #30
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Are any viable alternative locations for this landfill proposed? Is there a concern about it being within a mile of the school perhaps? Are the citizens trying to solve a credible design problem or is this more of a veiled "not in my backyard" kind of gig?
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Old 25th September 2022, 04:59 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
It's a landfill that may be built dirrectly on top of an Aquifer the Only environmental engineer involved works for the company wanting too build the Landfill.
Iíve worked on waste sites, they are as carefully engineered as any other large civil engineering project.
They are also closely monitored by independent companies and labs. My job was collecting water samples to ship to the lab from dozens of wells at each site.

Iím not saying that anyone should blindly trust the companies building or maintaining the landfill, but they are a heck of a lot more than a hole in which trash gets thrown.

I also assume the plans are accessible to the public.

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Old 26th September 2022, 06:54 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Are any viable alternative locations for this landfill proposed? Is there a concern about it being within a mile of the school perhaps? Are the citizens trying to solve a credible design problem or is this more of a veiled "not in my backyard" kind of gig?
Yes also remember the County doesn't need a Landfill at this time, it is simply a for profit venture, by the Builder.
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Old 26th September 2022, 06:55 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There's no way to guarantee anything. This sounds like you're trying to work backwards from a pre-selected conclusion, to some kind of rationalization for just doing what you already decided should be done anyway.

You're just looking for a scientifical way to tell your policy makers that they can't have a landfill without a perfect liner.

You're not even interested in actual data about actual liners. Data that might already address your ostensible concern.
I am basing everything on data I am asking you if you have any.

http://showme.net/~fkeller/quake/origins.htm

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Old 26th September 2022, 06:56 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
I’ve worked on waste sites, they are as carefully engineered as any other large civil engineering project.
They are also closely monitored by independent companies and labs. My job was collecting water samples to ship to the lab from dozens of wells at each site.

I’m not saying that anyone should blindly trust the companies building or maintaining the landfill, but they are a heck of a lot more than a hole in which trash gets thrown.

I also assume the plans are accessible to the public.

Beware of the leopard
All Public works structures roads and bridges are subject to failure in this predicted Earthquake.

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Old 26th September 2022, 07:05 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Yes also remember the County doesn't need a Landfill at this time, it is simply a for profit venture, by the Builder.
Obviously someone needs a landfill. All the waste generated by humans being alive and doing things has to go somewhere.
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Old 26th September 2022, 07:06 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
I am basing everything on data I am asking you if you have any.
I'm saying there's already data about liner performance in earthquakes, but you're ignoring it. Why?
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Old 26th September 2022, 07:36 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm saying there's already data about liner performance in earthquakes, but you're ignoring it. Why?
Because the transmission of energy though the rock Morphology is radically different, and the data comes from substantial weaker earthquakes than the 1911 event. Thus their is no firm data that could be used building the Landfill on one of the Most Important Aquifers in the County Could lead to the loss of the Total Water supply to the City of Lewisport Kentucky, and poisoning of thousands of people.
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Old 26th September 2022, 07:39 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Obviously someone needs a landfill. All the waste generated by humans being alive and doing things has to go somewhere.
We have Landfills in Davis and Ohio Counties that are not built on Fresh water Aquifers, the only reason for building on this site is that garbage can be shipped by Rail from other states that themselves have declined building Landfills.
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Old 26th September 2022, 07:46 AM   #39
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If you already know there is no data, then why are you asking for data?

What about data from predictive modeling and simulations? Recent advances in the computation of fluid dynamics has reduced or obsoleted the need for wind tunnels in aerospace engineering, and for live testing in nuclear weapons design. Maybe geologists and civil engineers know more about liner sturdiness than you think.

But it's clear you just don't want this landfill, and are trying to deploy a "perfect is the enemy of the good" strategy to stop its construction. Good luck with that. Try not to attract too much attention from your mortal enemies as you take your fight to the county seat or wherever.
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Old 26th September 2022, 09:04 AM   #40
ahhell
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Join Date: Feb 2017
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Have any independent environmental engineers criticized the design, or is this more ike a bunch of people freaking over fluoridation of the public water supply?
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
How deep below the surface is the water, relative to the proposed landfill? Directly on top? How much fill is in place to filter decomposing solid waste before it hits the water table? Are we pretty sure all this has not been taken into account already?
Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
Iíve worked on waste sites, they are as carefully engineered as any other large civil engineering project.
They are also closely monitored by independent companies and labs. My job was collecting water samples to ship to the lab from dozens of wells at each site.

Iím not saying that anyone should blindly trust the companies building or maintaining the landfill, but they are a heck of a lot more than a hole in which trash gets thrown.

I also assume the plans are accessible to the public.

Beware of the leopard
All of that.

I suspect this hasn't gotten to the design phase yet, so third party review of the design will need to wait.

As import of how deep it is is what is between the land fill and the aquafer. Email the local university Civil/Environmental Engineering Department and find an expert. Ask them. I don't see any reason to oppose it at this stage of development.
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