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Old 21st June 2009, 05:58 PM   #81
Michael Mozina
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Originally Posted by Tim Thompson View Post
We have been over this ground before. Of course mainstream theories are very testable, as I have explained before ...
Ok Tim, I'll pilfer your mathematical constructs related to inflation, dark energy and dark matter and call them "divine breath", "magic energy" and "magic matter". How will you falsify the existence of any of these things?

Last edited by Michael Mozina; 21st June 2009 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 21st June 2009, 06:23 PM   #82
Michael Mozina
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Originally Posted by Tim Thompson View Post
No, you get real. Better yet, get honest.
Ok Tim, let's *BOTH* be honest.

Quote:
I don't think you are at all capable of an intellectually honest exploration of any topic in science
Birkeland was an "intellectually honest" scientist Tim. He didn't just point at aurora and claim: "Oh look, dark energy did it". He didn't just say "electricity did it" and slap on some math either. He built actual laboratory experiments to test his theories and he compared them to the in-situ measurements he took at great personal physical peril.

Intellectual honesty begins by noting that you cannot tell the difference between dark energy and magic energy based on math formulas alone. A label with math attached will often not accurately reflect nature. We can only know if it does match nature by actually *experimenting* and finding out. That requires a control mechanism as well, particularly if we are going to be "intellectually honest" about it.

Quote:
because you are rigid & blind, totally incapable of seeing beyond the limited horizon of your own preconceptions.
Empirical physics doesn't give a damn about my preconceptions nor yours. I can "preconcieve" any idea I might like about "gravity", but I guarantee you I won't fly off into the sunset just by jumping up. Nature is *empirical* and physically real with real physical effects. It has "rules" that don't care one iota about individual human opinions. Gravity will pull me back to earth, regardless of any preconceived ideas I might have about it.

Electrical currents have a similar effect on human beliefs. That lightning bolt that releases gamma rays in the atmospheres of Earth and the solar atmosphere is going to fry you if you get in it's way, regardless of your preconceived ideas about it.

Quote:
that Quite simply, you don't & can't understand what science is. So naturally, you are on the losing side.
Tim, I actually have some respect for you, at least enough to clue you in here. You're going to go down in history as one of the last "flat Earthers" at the rate you're going. Evidently you had a run in with Dr. Scott somwhere back in time and somehow you've managed to convince yourself that electricity does not play a vital role in events in space. That is absolutely false Tim. That solar wind that constantly accelerates toward the heliosphere is driven by electrical currents, in fact they are a form *OF* electrical currents because they are charged particle moving at over a million miles per hour.

I don't know how you might open your mind to reality, but I hope for your own sake that you do so soon. The events in space are simply too similar to all the experiments here on Earth to simply be a coincidence. It was not a coincidence that Birkeland *predicted* high speed solar wind Tim. He *created it* in his lab as well. Get a clue. You're the one on the wrong side of history my friend and it's not going to be that long before the tide begins to turn. There are too many new technologies coming on line for you to hide your head in the sand forever.

You point Rhessi at Earth and see gamma rays from electrical discharges in the Earth's atmosphere. You point the same satellite at the solar atmosphere, observe gamma rays there too, and claim "magnetic reconnection faeries did it". Let's be intellectually honest here Tim. What *physically demonstrated force of nature" releases gamma rays in the atmospheres of bodies in space?

Last edited by Michael Mozina; 21st June 2009 at 06:52 PM.
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Old 21st June 2009, 06:30 PM   #83
Michael Mozina
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Nice to see all the cranks on one place !
Step one of the guide to BB mythology:
When confronted with empirical fact, call the individual a "crank", and hope it sticks. If not, repeat this intellectually dishonest tactic as often as necessary.

Quote:
Michael Mozina is here to dump his dumb "only things that we can test here on Earth are science" idea on us once more.
No, I'm here to point out the fact that you can't even *tell the difference* between empirical physics and religion.

Quote:
EU theory is (in Michael Mozina jargon) *NOT* lab tested.
Birkeland "lab tested" every single idea he proposed. What exactly was he "wrong about" in your opinion?

Quote:
Newtonian dynamics, Maxwell's equations and General Relativity are "lab tested".
Many parts of GR remain to be "tested" in an empirical sense. The rest are in fact "lab tested" in great detail, as are parts of GR.

Quote:
So lets see if he tell us why the evidence for dark matter is wrong.
Because you can't produce a gram of the stuff! Come on. This is why your industry is loosing credibility by leaps and bounds in the internet age. You can't produce a single gram of this stuff. You've probably never bothered to read Peratt's experiments nor begin to comprehend how they might apply. All you know is what you were *told*, not what you were "shown" empirically. Your beliefs are based upon "religious acts of faith", not empirical evidence. Show me one single gram of dark matter that shows up in a controlled experiment.

Last edited by Michael Mozina; 21st June 2009 at 06:34 PM.
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Old 21st June 2009, 07:01 PM   #84
Reality Check
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Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
Step one of the guide to BB mythology:
When confronted with empirical fact, call the individual a "crank", and hope it sticks. If not, repeat this intellectually dishonest tactic as often as necessary.
You meet the criteria for a crank (or crackpot) such as your obsession with redefining what science actually is and so you are a crank.

Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
No, I'm here to point out the fact that you can't even *tell the difference* between empirical physics and religion.
No, we are here to tell you that you do not know what "empirical" or even what science means.

Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
Birkeland "lab tested" every single idea he proposed. What exactly was he "wrong about" in your opinion?
Nothing was wrong with Birkeland's original lab work. He did propose several ideas based on his lab work that have been proved wrong, e.g. using the mimilarities between his images and Saturn's rings to suggest an electrical origin.
The real problem is EU crackpots thinking that science stopped with Birkeland.

Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
Many parts of GR remain to be "tested" in an empirical sense. The rest are in fact "lab tested" in great detail, as are parts of GR.
What parts of GR would they be? And how much is "many", i.e. what % do these parts make?

Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
Because you can't produce a gram of the stuff! Come on. This is why your industry is loosing credibility by leaps and bounds in the internet age. You can't produce a single gram of this stuff. You've probably never bothered to read Peratt's experiments nor begin to comprehend how they might apply. All you know is what you were *told*, not what you were "shown" empirically. Your beliefs are based upon "religious acts of faith", not empirical evidence. Show me one single gram of dark matter that shows up in a controlled experiment.
I have shown you billions of tons of dark matter in controlled experiments (controlled by the universe):
  • galaxy rotation curves (Newtonian dynamics)
  • the motion of galxies in galactic clusters (Newtonian dynamics)
  • the actual measurement of the mass density of galactic clusters showing that about 2% is in the galaxies and IGM (Maxwell's equations and General Relativity)
  • the two actual measurements of the separation of dark matter from normal matter:
You just cannot read. All of these are empirical experiments (you have probably seen and ignored this many times before, so be a good crackpot and ignore it again).
Quote:
The word empirical denotes information gained by means of observation, experience, or experiment.[1] A central concept in science and the scientific method is that all evidence must be empirical, or empirically based, that is, dependent on evidence or consequences that are observable by the senses. It is usually differentiated from the philosophic usage of empiricism by the use of the adjective "empirical" or the adverb "empirically." "Empirical" as an adjective or adverb is used in conjunction with both the natural and social sciences, and refers to the use of working hypotheses that are testable using observation or experiment. In this sense of the word, scientific statements are subject to and derived from our experiences or observations. Empirical data are data that are produced by experiment or observation

Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
...snip...
You've probably never bothered to read Peratt's experiments nor begin to comprehend how they might apply.
...snip...
I know a lot more "Peratt's experiments" than you seem to be since I have read as many of his papers as I have been able to access. I happen to know the prime reason that his model is fatally flawed (something that any one with a basic knowledge of astronomy can see).

A small test for you, Michael Mozina:
  • What were the names of the software that Perrat used in his simulation?
  • How many particles were simulated?
  • What was the distribution of particles in the various simulations?
Try answering those questions before looking at: Anthony Peratt's Plasma Model of Galaxy Formation
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Old 21st June 2009, 07:26 PM   #85
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Hi M. Mozina. Welcome back.
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Old 21st June 2009, 08:46 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
You meet the criteria for a crank (or crackpot) such as your obsession with redefining what science actually is and so you are a crank.

The word crank has a meaning, yes your right. So does the world ****. They are both still derogatory terms, that and ultimately based on peoples subjective opinions and personal scientific preferences. I dont ever see michael using such words, take a leaf from his book. The same goes for any derogatory ad hominem term, thats why you generally dont hear in any respectable scientific journal 'because now Mr Blogs original model has some evidence against it he's a complete crackpot'. They will just state what the evidence is which is a much more respectable position to take. And avoids any emotive overtones.
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Old 21st June 2009, 08:54 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
The word crank has a meaning, yes your right. So does the world ****. They are both still derogatory terms, that and ultimately based on peoples subjective opinions and personal scientific preferences. I dont ever see michael using such words, take a leaf from his book. The same goes for any derogatory ad hominem term, thats why you generally dont hear in any respectable scientific journal 'because now Mr Blogs original model has some evidence against it he's a complete crackpot'. They will just state what the evidence is which is a much more respectable position to take. And avoids any emotive overtones.
Ok - you do not like the word "crank".
I am basing my evaluation of MM as a crackpot from his statements in this forum and his "Iron Sun" model.

ETA:
Forgot about a link to MM's web site which should give lurkers a laugh: The surface of the Sun: The sun has a rigid iron surface located under the photosphere...
And it is not only his theory, Professor O Manuel: The Sun is a ball of Iron!
Enjoy

Last edited by Reality Check; 21st June 2009 at 09:02 PM.
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Old 21st June 2009, 08:56 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
Only an idiotic individual would fail to note that this *THEORY* has already been lab tested by Birkeland and mathematically quantified by Alfven and Bruce and Peratt and many others.

No, it hasn't. And every time you're asked to actually show it has, you pussy out.
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Old 21st June 2009, 10:39 PM   #89
Michael Mozina
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Originally Posted by GeeMack View Post
No, it hasn't. And every time you're asked to actually show it has, you pussy out.
Have you actually read Birkeland's work, yes or no?
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Old 21st June 2009, 10:57 PM   #90
Michael Mozina
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
You meet the criteria for a crank (or crackpot) such as your obsession with redefining what science actually is and so you are a crank.
This is intellectually *DISHONEST* behavior from beginning to end. You can't actually produce a single gram of "dark matter", but it's my fault I don't believe in the stuff? You literally "make up" dark energy out of thin air, and I'm a "crank"? You guys dreamed up "inflation", a literally "supernatural" form of energy, and I'm a crackpot for preferring empirical physics over metaphysical myth making?

Quote:
No, we are here to tell you that you do not know what "empirical" or even what science means.
"Empirical" things show up in *CONTROLLED* experiments. Your mythos is not "science" it is "religion" that requires leaps of faith in at least three different forms of magic. You require faith in magic inflation, faith in magic energy and faith in magic matter. Other than that, sure it is almost actually like "pure science".

Quote:
Nothing was wrong with Birkeland's original lab work. He did propose several ideas based on his lab work that have been proved wrong, e.g. using the mimilarities between his images and Saturn's rings to suggest an electrical origin.
How do you know there there are no electromagnetic influences related to the placement of the material in these rings again?

Quote:
The real problem is EU crackpots thinking that science stopped with Birkeland.
That "crackpot" claim sounds just plain stupid and ironic coming from a guy who believes in three forms of metaphysical BS.

Quote:
What parts of GR would they be?
The part where gravity is *ATTRACTIVE* and not repulsive for one. How about demonstrating that repulsion trick you guys do with Lambda-Gumby theory in a lab in a controlled experiment? Oh ya, you can't. You made up that one.

Quote:
And how much is "many", i.e. what % do these parts make?
How about just demonstrating gravity actually does repulsive tricks? You keep stuffing GR theory with repulsive magical entities. What's that about?

Quote:
I have shown you billions of tons of dark matter in controlled experiments (controlled by the universe):
Obviously you don't comprehend what a *CONTROL MECHANISM* actually is. You can't "control" galaxies. All you've demonstrated is that you can't explain rotation curves with GR and the matter you can identify. At worst case you found "missing mass", not some new exotic form of "dark matter". Sheesh, you guys are pitiful.

Quote:
I know a lot more "Peratt's experiments" than you seem to be since I have read as many of his papers as I have been able to access. I happen to know the prime reason that his model is fatally flawed (something that any one with a basic knowledge of astronomy can see).
Your models are also "fatally flawed", which is why you are forced to stuff them with 96 percent metaphysics, and only 4% actual physics. *PLEASE* don't even thing about lecturing an EU proponent about "fatal flaws". Dark energy was was only the last made up thing you stuffed into your otherwise dead and falsified theory. You wouldn't know a fatal flaw if it hit you in the head.

Quote:
A small test for you, Michael Mozina:
How about a test for you? How about you or anyone else on this forum actually show your "expertise" and *explain* the first LMSAL RD image and Kosovichev's Doppler (tsunami) image on my website? You won't do it. You'll run like hell from the real "science" because it scares the hell out of you and you can't explain those images with your useless theories.

Last edited by Michael Mozina; 21st June 2009 at 11:10 PM.
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Old 21st June 2009, 11:08 PM   #91
Michael Mozina
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Ok - you do not like the word "crank".
I am basing my evaluation of MM as a crackpot from his statements in this forum and his "Iron Sun" model.

ETA:
Forgot about a link to MM's web site which should give lurkers a laugh: The surface of the Sun: The sun has a rigid iron surface located under the photosphere...
And it is not only his theory, Professor O Manuel: The Sun is a ball of Iron!
Enjoy
Why don't you show us how a "real pro" would explain that first RD image from LMSAL and that Doppler image from Kosovichev?
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Old 22nd June 2009, 01:37 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
Why don't you show us how a "real pro" would explain that first RD image from LMSAL and that Doppler image from Kosovichev?
Let's count the number of logical fallacies used by MM, shall we?

This one is "false dichotomy" (textbook solar physics cannot explain {X}*, THEREFORE my idea MUST be right!)

*in this case, of course, the MM claim is both wrong and dishonest.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 01:38 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
Have you actually read Birkeland's work, yes or no?
Logical fallacy #2: appeal to authority.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 01:39 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
Ok Tim, I'll pilfer your mathematical constructs related to inflation, dark energy and dark matter and call them "divine breath", "magic energy" and "magic matter". How will you falsify the existence of any of these things?
Logical fallacy #3: strawman.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 01:52 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
Only an idiotic individual would fail to note that this *THEORY* has already been lab tested by Birkeland and mathematically quantified by Alfven and Bruce and Peratt and many others. [...]

EU theory is lab tested. You folks recognized the value of Birkelands work as it relates to aurora and you utterly ignore *EVERYTHING* else he "predicted" in his work. [...]
And the (astrophysical, cosmological) theories of Birkeland, Alfvén, Bruce, and Peratt (and others) have been subject to empirical tests (i.e. are they consistent with multiple, independently obtained *quantitative* observations?), ... and they have failed all such tests.

Are you saying, MM, that astrophysical/cosmological theories built on controlled lab experiments should NOT be assessed by determining how consistent they are with astronomical observations?
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Old 22nd June 2009, 04:07 AM   #96
Reality Check
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Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
This is intellectually *DISHONEST* behavior from beginning to end. You can't actually produce a single gram of "dark matter", but it's my fault I don't believe in the stuff? You literally "make up" dark energy out of thin air, and I'm a "crank"? You guys dreamed up "inflation", a literally "supernatural" form of energy, and I'm a crackpot for preferring empirical physics over metaphysical myth making?
This is intellectually *DISHONEST* behavior from beginning to end.
The existence of dark matter or not has everything to do with the evidence for and against it. It has little to do with whether you are are crackpot (other than your insistence on ignoring the empirical evidence for dark matter).

You are a crackpot because of your ignorance of basic physics, e.g the weeks it took you to come up with the standard text book definition of pressure and your inability to understand that that definition means that negative pressure exists. Anyone who reads the Lambda-CDM theory - Woo or not? thread can see this.

You are a crackpot because you have a crackpot web site.

You are a crackpot because you believe that empirical measurements can only come from human-controlled experiments. You thus believe that all astronomical measurements are not empirical just because it is the universe that controls them. There is also the other areas in science where you would throw away empirical measurement because they are not "controlled": biology, geology, etc.

Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
"Empirical" things show up in *CONTROLLED* experiments. Your mythos is not "science" it is "religion" that requires leaps of faith in at least three different forms of magic. You require faith in magic inflation, faith in magic energy and faith in magic matter. Other than that, sure it is almost actually like "pure science".
Your mythos is not "science" it is "religion" that requires a certain level of delusion and the ability to ignore the real universe.

Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
How do you know there there are no electromagnetic influences related to the placement of the material in these rings again?
There are electrostatic influences "related to the placement of material in there rings again" - the seasonal spokes. The actual structure of the rings is gravitational.

Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
That "crackpot" claim sounds just plain stupid and ironic coming from a guy who believes in three forms of metaphysical BS.
Science has evidence for the "three forms of metaphysical BS". You just have a delusion that you are right and every one else is wrong.

Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
The part where gravity is *ATTRACTIVE* and not repulsive for one. How about demonstrating that repulsion trick you guys do with Lambda-Gumby theory in a lab in a controlled experiment? Oh ya, you can't. You made up that one.

How about just demonstrating gravity actually does repulsive tricks? You keep stuffing GR theory with repulsive magical entities. What's that about?
Of course gravity is attractive. Where did you get the dumb idea that it is not? Your ignorance is showing again Michael Mozina

Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
Obviously you don't comprehend what a *CONTROL MECHANISM* actually is. You can't "control" galaxies. All you've demonstrated is that you can't explain rotation curves with GR and the matter you can identify. At worst case you found "missing mass", not some new exotic form of "dark matter". Sheesh, you guys are pitiful.
Sheesh, Michael Mozina's delusions are pitiful. And your ignorance is showing again Michael Mozina. The "missing" mass is not missing. It has actually been measured.
  • galaxy rotation curves (Newtonian dynamics, indirect measurement)
  • the motion of galxies in galactic clusters (Newtonian dynamics, indirect measurement)
  • the actual measurement of the mass density of galactic clusters showing that about 2% is in the galaxies and IGM (Maxwell's equations and General Relativity, indirect measurement)
  • the two actual measurements of the separation of dark matter from normal matter:
On the one hand he believes that Peratt's computer simulation is an empirical experiment (and ignores that is comes up with totally wrong results).
On the other hand he believes that the Lambda-CDM computer simulation is not an empirical experiment (and ignores that it comes up with verified results)!

Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
Your models are also "fatally flawed", which is why you are forced to stuff them with 96 percent metaphysics, and only 4% actual physics. *PLEASE* don't even thing about lecturing an EU proponent about "fatal flaws". Dark energy was was only the last made up thing you stuffed into your otherwise dead and falsified theory. You wouldn't know a fatal flaw if it hit you in the head.
I can read and know that this thread is about EU.

I know that anyone who cannot comprehend that the mass in spiral galaxies is not distributed in a spiral is ignorant of basic astronomy.

I know that anyone who cannot comprehend that the mass in double-lobe radio galaxies is not distributed in a double lobe is ignorant of basic astronomy.

Anthony Peratt's Plasma Model of Galaxy Formation

I know that a computer smulation that comes up with mass distributions of galaxies that do not match the actual mass distributions of galaxies is fatally flawed.


I know that a model that starts with two ex nihilo arguments is bad:
  • The first ex nihilo argument is that the galactic plasma filaments are assumed to come into existence (and to form bundles of parallel filaments) at some point in the past to begin the formation of the galaxies.
  • The second ex nihilo argument is the electric current through each filament that starts from nothing and goes to nothing.
I know that a model that explictly assumes that gravity has no effect in galaxy formation is fatally flawed.

I know that a model that predicts galactic plasma fliaments (with a width of 35 kiloparsecs (100,000 light years) and a length of from 35 megaparasec to 3.5 gigaparasec (an average length of 350 megaparasec or 1 billion light years)) that are cannt be detected either electromagnetically or gravitationaly is fatally flawed.

I know that an author who published astronomy theories in journals that few astonomers read or took seriously is not serious about astromony (or wanted to avoid serious scientific review).

Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
How about a test for you? How about you or anyone else on this forum actually show your "expertise" and *explain* the first LMSAL RD image and Kosovichev's Doppler (tsunami) image on my website? You won't do it. You'll run like hell from the real "science" because it scares the hell out of you and you can't explain those images with your useless theories.
You first.

Last edited by Reality Check; 22nd June 2009 at 04:16 AM.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 04:29 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
Why don't you show us how a "real pro" would explain that first RD image from LMSAL and that Doppler image from Kosovichev?
Changes in the subsurface stratification of the Sun with the 11-year activity cycle by Sandrine Lefebvre, Alexander Kosovichev is actually quite interesting. They are of course talking about the standard gas model of the Sun:
Quote:
This transition layer is located here approximately at 0.99Rand it is linked to changes in the upper convective zone caused by magnetic fields.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 05:49 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by DeiRenDopa View Post
Let's count the number of logical fallacies used by MM, shall we?

This one is "false dichotomy" (textbook solar physics cannot explain {X}*, THEREFORE my idea MUST be right!)

*in this case, of course, the MM claim is both wrong and dishonest.
ETA: My characterisation "dishonest" is inappropriate; apologies.

There is abundant, objective, empirical evidence that is consistent with the hypothesis that MM understands neither the physics of, nor the mathematics that forms the foundation of, standard models of the Sun, helioseismology, Doppler imagery, etc, etc, etc (and no objective, empirical evidence to the contrary).

Therefore MM's comments on such topics cannot be called 'dishonest'.

A more appropriate characterisation would be "reflects gross ignorance", with a footnote to the effect that the gross ignorance seems to be wilful (MM seems to be well aware of his gross ignorance, is proud of it, and has no intention or desire to do anything about it).
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Old 22nd June 2009, 08:10 AM   #99
Michael Mozina
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
This is intellectually *DISHONEST* behavior from beginning to end.
The existence of dark matter or not has everything to do with the evidence for and against it. It has little to do with whether you are are crackpot (other than your insistence on ignoring the empirical evidence for dark matter).
There is no "empirical evidence" for:
A) inflation
B) dark energy
C) dark matter

You evidently cannot tell the difference between "empirical evidence" and "subjective interpretation of an uncontrolled observation". In short, you're clueless. The terms "crackpot" and "crank" are ironic when coming from a cult that relies upon no less than *THREE* different forms of metaphysical "fudge factor bandaids" to make the theory hold together. Your characterization of my beliefs is meaningless.

Quote:
You are a crackpot because of your ignorance of basic physics, e.g the weeks it took you to come up with the standard text book definition of pressure and your inability to understand that that definition means that negative pressure exists.
I'm not going to rehash that BS. Basic physical processes show up in a lab, and no experiment on earth ever created "negative pressure" in a "vacuum". Guth made up that notion, just like he "made up" inflation in his head. You can't "physically" demonstrate any of your core beliefs.

Quote:
You are a crackpot because you have a crackpot web site.
You're a scared little child because you won't even address the actual images and data that lead to that website. You can't and won't address the actual "science" related to that website, starting with that RD and Doppler image. You'll run because you are afraid and incapable of offering a "better" explanation. You don't have a Birkeland type set of "controlled" experiments showing the merit of any of your core beliefs. I do.

Quote:
Of course gravity is attractive. Where did you get the dumb idea that it is not? Your ignorance is showing again Michael Mozina
Except you have Lambda-Gumby theory doing push-me-pull-you tricks with "dark energy" and inflation.

Quote:
You first.
I already offered you my explanation of these images. You're next. You won't touch them because you're not an actual "scientist", you're a sleaze artist with no real ability to "analyze" anything. All you can do is parrot what you were taught and you cannot even think for yourself.

Last edited by Michael Mozina; 22nd June 2009 at 08:12 AM.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 08:53 AM   #100
Michael Mozina
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Changes in the subsurface stratification of the Sun with the 11-year activity cycle by Sandrine Lefebvre, Alexander Kosovichev is actually quite interesting. They are of course talking about the standard gas model of the Sun:
[/left]
Really? Which *specific* "standard theory" actually "predicted" the existence of a "stratification" subsurface located at around .995R?

In fact that "stratification subsurface" can be seen in Doppler and RD images of the solar atmosphere.




We can actually observe that stratification subsurface in the tsunami image as the wave passes over the photosphere.

How about you "experts" step up to the plate and show us which standard model predicted these "rigid subsurface features" (crust) which we observe in these RD and Doppler images?

In fact this region is supposed to be an open convection zone according to standard theory.

Last edited by Michael Mozina; 22nd June 2009 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 09:01 AM   #101
Michael Mozina
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Originally Posted by DeiRenDopa View Post
ETA: My characterisation "dishonest" is inappropriate; apologies.

There is abundant, objective, empirical evidence that is consistent with the hypothesis that MM understands neither the physics of, nor the mathematics that forms the foundation of, standard models of the Sun, helioseismology, Doppler imagery, etc, etc, etc (and no objective, empirical evidence to the contrary).

Therefore MM's comments on such topics cannot be called 'dishonest'.

A more appropriate characterisation would be "reflects gross ignorance", with a footnote to the effect that the gross ignorance seems to be wilful (MM seems to be well aware of his gross ignorance, is proud of it, and has no intention or desire to do anything about it).
Whatever "gross ignorance" I might be guilty of, it is due to the fact that not a single one of you actually addresses the physical evidence I have presented, Birkeland's work, Alfven's work, or Bruce's work. All you do is attack the individual. It seems to be your one and only rather pitiful self defense mechanism. Your core beliefs are based upon blind faith in metaphysical things you cannot ever hope to demonstrate here on Earth. You will forever hold on to your "religion" due to pure fear, fear of being "wrong".

If you have any real "science" to offer me DRD, do so. Just explain the rigid features of those two images. The RD and Doppler images both show the rigid features of that "stratification subsurface" which your theories never predicted. Not one standard solar theory ever mentioned a "stratification subsurface" prior to their paper.

Last edited by Michael Mozina; 22nd June 2009 at 09:05 AM.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 09:07 AM   #102
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Quote:
NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (Bullet Cluster)
Before I rip this paper to shreds, which of you actually believes they found "direct proof" of "dark matter" (as opposed to say "indirect evidence of missing mass")?
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Old 22nd June 2009, 09:18 AM   #103
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Here's what I said earlier:
Quote:
And the (astrophysical, cosmological) theories of Birkeland, Alfvén, Bruce, and Peratt (and others) have been subject to empirical tests (i.e. are they consistent with multiple, independently obtained *quantitative* observations?), ... and they have failed all such tests.
(I added bold MM, so that you won't miss it this time).

Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
Whatever "gross ignorance" I might be guilty of, it is due to the fact that not a single one of you actually addresses the physical evidence I have presented, Birkeland's work, Alfven's work, or Bruce's work. All you do is attack the individual.

[...]
(bold added)

Now that is not gross ignorance, but blatant dishonesty.

Quite a lot of time and effort went into the dozens (hundreds?) of posts which demonstrated, by direct reference to Birkeland's own works (which you kindly provided, remember?), that his models failed, and failed badly, when subject to astronomical tests^. You even acknowledged this, remember?

I do not recall you presenting "Bruce's work", and a quick check failed to turn up anything. However, I could well be wrong ... if you'd be so kind as to give a link (or links) to the posts in this forum where you presented "Bruce's work", I'd be happy to check it out and, if appropriate, retract my comments in regard of this.

^to give just one example: no astronomical image that I know of shows Saturn's rings with a thick, bright bar orthogonal to the rings, a bar of length ~half a Saturn radius (this is what can be seen in the relevant photo in Birkeland's document).
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Old 22nd June 2009, 09:30 AM   #104
DeiRenDopa
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Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
Before I rip this paper to shreds, which of you actually believes they found "direct proof" of "dark matter" (as opposed to say "indirect evidence of missing mass")?
Please don't.

This thread is about "Electric universe theories".

If you have a reference to a paper, or papers, which explains the Bullet Cluster observations within the framework of any electric universe theory (or theories), please, by all means, post it here.

Of course, as I'm sure you'll be the first to agree, 'explains' means quantitatively explain, so please don't waste your and readers' time by posting things that do not provide a quantitative explanation (or explanations).
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Old 22nd June 2009, 09:41 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
You're a scared little child because you won't even address the actual images and data that lead to that website. You can't and won't address the actual "science" related to that website, starting with that RD and Doppler image. You'll run because you are afraid and incapable of offering a "better" explanation. You don't have a Birkeland type set of "controlled" experiments showing the merit of any of your core beliefs. I do.

Your wacky solid surface of the Sun delusion is off topic. You should start another thread about it where you can have your ass handed to you on a plate like you have so many times in the past.

Last edited by GeeMack; 22nd June 2009 at 10:57 AM. Reason: Spelling.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 09:44 AM   #106
GeeMack
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Originally Posted by DeiRenDopa View Post
Of course, as I'm sure you'll be the first to agree, 'explains' means quantitatively explain, so please don't waste your and readers' time by posting things that do not provide a quantitative explanation (or explanations).

Oh, puh-leeze! Quantitatively? That's like speaking in a foreign language to Michael. He's said it himself too many times. He don't need no stinking quantitative. He's got pretty pictures and a $19.95 Wal-Mart plasma ball!
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Old 22nd June 2009, 09:48 AM   #107
Tubbythin
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Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
Before I rip this paper to shreds, which of you actually believes they found "direct proof" of "dark matter" (as opposed to say "indirect evidence of missing mass")?
In the same way that you ripped the Guth Paper to shreds?... by trying to use the ideal gas equation to describe the Casimir effect. This could be fun.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 10:15 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
This is intellectually *DISHONEST* behavior from beginning to end. You can't actually produce a single gram of "dark matter", but it's my fault I don't believe in the stuff?
We can't produce a gram of anti-protons either. Do they exist?

Quote:
You literally "make up" dark energy out of thin air, and I'm a "crank"?
Er no. That's a lie. You've been told this many times. The concept of dark energy comes from the empiriccal observation that expansion of the Universe is accelerating.

Quote:
You guys dreamed up "inflation", a literally "supernatural" form of energy, and I'm a crackpot for preferring empirical physics over metaphysical myth making?
Please define supernatural. Then prove how inflation is supernatural.

Quote:
"Empirical" things show up in *CONTROLLED* experiments.
How is an astronomical observation so much less controlled than say an observation at a particle collider? I'm assuming you're okay with particle physics though this is a pretty risky assumption for someone who is unhappy with negative pressures and energies.

Quote:
Your mythos is not "science" it is "religion"
You clearly have no understanding of either of those words you put in speech marks then.

Quote:
that requires leaps of faith in at least three different forms of magic.
No magic involved I'm afraid.

Quote:
You require faith in magic inflation, faith in magic energy and faith in magic matter. Other than that, sure it is almost actually like "pure science".
Nope. We have very strong, quantitative evidence for all three.

Quote:
How do you know there there are no electromagnetic influences related to the placement of the material in these rings again?
The motions of the rings are Keplerian. Some of the fine structure may involve EM.

Quote:
That "crackpot" claim sounds just plain stupid and ironic coming from a guy who believes in three forms of metaphysical BS.
You see Michael, the problem is you wave these insults around and then time and time again demonstrate that you haven't even the faintest idea what you're insulting. The LCDM theory thread provided abundant evidence of this. You didn't even understand fairly basic concepts like pressure, energy or high school physics like Newtonian gravity. Why would anybody possibly take your comments seriously given these huge and completely evident flaws in your understanding of physics.

Quote:
The part where gravity is *ATTRACTIVE* and not repulsive for one. How about demonstrating that repulsion trick you guys do with Lambda-Gumby theory in a lab in a controlled experiment? Oh ya, you can't. You made up that one.
Please demonstrate a neutron star in a lab controlled experiment. Oh ya, you can't. You made up that one.

Quote:
How about just demonstrating gravity actually does repulsive tricks? You keep stuffing GR theory with repulsive magical entities. What's that about?
Nobody is mentioning magic except you. Please stop with the lies.

Quote:
Obviously you don't comprehend what a *CONTROL MECHANISM* actually is. You can't "control" galaxies.
How well do you think you can controll what comes out of bashing a proton and an anti-proton together? You can't. You can control where the collisions take place and what energy they're at. The rest is about designing appropriate detectors and picking the interesting stuff out from the data using knowledge of physics. Its much the same with astronomy.

Quote:
All you've demonstrated is that you can't explain rotation curves with GR and the matter you can identify. At worst case you found "missing mass", not some new exotic form of "dark matter". Sheesh, you guys are pitiful.
This is brilliant. We have't got "dark matter". We've got matter that's missing because we can't see it. Ie it doesn't radiate. Ie its matter that is dark. ie we don't have "dark matter" (that would be ridiculous) what we actually have is dark matter.

Quote:
Your models are also "fatally flawed", which is why you are forced to stuff them with 96 percent metaphysics, and only 4% actual physics.
Erm. Except all we're really using is empirical observation plus the empirically tested theory of general relativity. Gonna debunk GR now?

Quote:
*PLEASE* don't even thing about lecturing an EU proponent about "fatal flaws". Dark energy was was only the last made up thing you stuffed into your otherwise dead and falsified theory. You wouldn't know a fatal flaw if it hit you in the head.
So I suppose you'll be collecting that Nobel prize for your falsification of GR in the next few years then?

Quote:
How about a test for you? How about you or anyone else on this forum actually show your "expertise" and *explain* the first LMSAL RD image and Kosovichev's Doppler (tsunami) image on my website? You won't do it. You'll run like hell from the real "science" because it scares the hell out of you and you can't explain those images with your useless theories.
Do you have a rigourous, quantitative explanation?

Last edited by Tubbythin; 22nd June 2009 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 10:26 AM   #109
Tubbythin
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Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
What can we actually "test" about mainstream theory? Got a gram of dark matter? Got a example of a controlled experiment where "dark energy" or "inflation" actually had a tangible effect on something in a real experimental setting? There's nothing to "test" in mainstream theory. We could label "dark energy", "magic faerie" energy, slap on your same math formulas and viola, we have a "test" for magic faeries. Get real.
This is an excellent illustration, Michael, that you haven't even the slightest idea what science is. You could call dark energy "Qwertyuiop theory" if you wanted. It wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to the theory. You see, science is all about quantitative measurement. And comparison of that quantitative measurement to a quantitative theory. We then use the level of agreement between quantitative measurement and quantitative theory to judge how well the theory matches the measurement. Now since making a new name for an old theory has absolutely no effect on the quantitative predictions made by the theory, the name is completely totally and utterly irrelevant.
Now, you've had a number of links given to quantitative aspects of such things as dark matter (or Qwertyuiop theory if you prefer). Perhaps you could try tackling them from a quantitative basis. Rather than just trying to change the names of the theory and pretending that somehow makes a difference.
Not that making up alternative names for things can't be useful in some fields of work. You could be the next JRR Tolkein for example. He was really good at making silly names up. Why don't you try that? You seem much more adept at creative writing than quantitative analysis.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 10:59 AM   #110
Michael Mozina
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Originally Posted by DeiRenDopa View Post
Here's what I said earlier:

(I added bold MM, so that you won't miss it this time).

(bold added)

Now that is not gross ignorance, but blatant dishonesty.
This coming for the person that has slit my throat twice online. You have some nerve. You're the single most "dishonest" individual I've met in cyberpsace dear. Most religious websites aren't as violent as you folks.

Quote:
Quite a lot of time and effort went into the dozens (hundreds?) of posts which demonstrated, by direct reference to Birkeland's own works (which you kindly provided, remember?), that his models failed, and failed badly, when subject to astronomical tests^. You even acknowledged this, remember?
Which *tests* are you referring to, because I don't recall it actually "failing" anything. His proposal for rings was not completely accurate, but the placement of material in rings is associated with the same processes he simulated in the lab. Which things did it "fail" in your opinion?

Quote:
I do not recall you presenting "Bruce's work", and a quick check failed to turn up anything.
This demonstrates conclusively that you have not read my website and you are ignorant of important work in this field.

Quote:
However, I could well be wrong ...
You are....as usual.

Quote:
if you'd be so kind as to give a link (or links) to the posts in this forum where you presented "Bruce's work", I'd be happy to check it out and, if appropriate, retract my comments in regard of this.
You'll find links to his work here:

http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/

Here's a useful paper you've never even responded to:
http://www.catastrophism.com/texts/bruce/era.htm

Quote:
^to give just one example: no astronomical image that I know of shows Saturn's rings with a thick, bright bar orthogonal to the rings, a bar of length ~half a Saturn radius (this is what can be seen in the relevant photo in Birkeland's document).
I'm willing to concede that there are differences between his "rings" and the rings on Saturn. This however is not a "disproof" of his concepts or his work. The very placement of material is most likely related to the EM currents he was proposing. Again, this one issue does not in any way negate any of the rest of his work in any way. If that is best you've got when you dismiss his life's work, that is utterly pitiful.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 11:10 AM   #111
Michael Mozina
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Originally Posted by GeeMack View Post
Your wacky solid surface of the Sun delusion is off topic. You should start another thread about it where you can have your ass handed to you on a plate like you have so many times in the past.
It is not off topic since Birkeland first proposed this solar model and doesn't work outside of an EU context.

When oh when did you folk intend to offer "better" scientific explanations for the RD and Doppler images? Did you intend to hide from these images forever?
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Old 22nd June 2009, 11:13 AM   #112
Michael Mozina
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Originally Posted by DeiRenDopa View Post
Please don't.
Please stop avoiding my direct question. Do you believe they actually found "direct proof" of "dark matter" as opposed to say "indirect evidence of missing mass"? This issue leads to the credibility of your personal belief systems. There is no "direct proof" found in that paper, and it only suggests that you grossly underestimate the mass of a galaxy, it demonstrates *NOTHING* related to "dark matter", just "missing and unaccounted for mass".

Quote:
This thread is about "Electric universe theories".
That RD and Doppler image are the basis of my "EU" oriented solar theories. Do you have a "better" scientific explanation for these two images, yes or no? Stop avoiding my questions.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 11:21 AM   #113
GeeMack
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Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
It is not off topic since Birkeland first proposed this solar model and doesn't work outside of an EU context.

When oh when did you folk intend to offer "better" scientific explanations for the RD and Doppler images? Did you intend to hide from these images forever?

It's been done to death. But really, your solid surface of the Sun stupidity belongs in its own thread.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 11:27 AM   #114
DeiRenDopa
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Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
[...]
Originally Posted by DeiRenDopa
Quite a lot of time and effort went into the dozens (hundreds?) of posts which demonstrated, by direct reference to Birkeland's own works (which you kindly provided, remember?), that his models failed, and failed badly, when subject to astronomical tests^. You even acknowledged this, remember?
Which *tests* are you referring to, because I don't recall it actually "failing" anything. His proposal for rings was not completely accurate, but the placement of material in rings is associated with the same processes he simulated in the lab. Which things did it "fail" in your opinion?
Way to go MM, way to go!

Later in the very same post you contradict yourself!
Quote:
I'm willing to concede that there are differences between his "rings" and the rings on Saturn.
Or, in plain English (let alone the criteria used in astronomy), he failed (his model is inconsistent with astronomical observations).

We can go further.

In Birkeland's model, Saturn's rings are self-luminous in the visual waveband.

Yet they are not.

So, his model failed.

We discussed plenty of other failures in the thread you yourself started MM, and in which you had ample opportunity to provide detailed, quantitative explanations which showed the consistency between Birkeland's actually published work and subsequent astronomical observations. You failed to do so, and so, by your own standards, Birkeland's ideas did too.

An example.

In Birkeland's own writings, he proposes that the Sun emits relativistic electrons (using today's terms; the solar wind is composed of relativistic electrons). His published work includes pages and pages on the derivation of this idea (quantitatively, using equations etc), backed up by pages and pages of reports of his terrella experiments.

However, as has been known for many decades now, the solar wind does not consist of relativistic electrons.

Ergo, Birkeland's idea/model has failed, in the sense that it is inconsistent with objective, independently verified observations.

(there's more of course; interested readers are referred to the long thread in which this is discussed)
Quote:
Quote:
I do not recall you presenting "Bruce's work", and a quick check failed to turn up anything.
This demonstrates conclusively that you have not read my website and you are ignorant of important work in this field.
Thanks.

I must say that I did not expect you to be so blatant and forthright in admitting that you lied.

Here's what I wrote, in full:
Quote:
I do not recall you presenting "Bruce's work", and a quick check failed to turn up anything. However, I could well be wrong ... if you'd be so kind as to give a link (or links) to the posts in this forum where you presented "Bruce's work", I'd be happy to check it out and, if appropriate, retract my comments in regard of this.
(bold added)

Perhaps you wrote in haste?

Perhaps you did actually present "Bruce's work" in this forum?
Quote:
[...]

I'm willing to concede that there are differences between his "rings" and the rings on Saturn. This however is not a "disproof" of his concepts or his work. The very placement of material is most likely related to the EM currents he was proposing. Again, this one issue does not in any way negate any of the rest of his work in any way. If that is best you've got when you dismiss his life's work, that is utterly pitiful.
(bold added)

Ah ha, a keen student of Gish are we MM? Though still, perhaps, learning to gallop.

Again, what I wrote is (bold added so you won't miss it, again):
Quote:
And the (astrophysical, cosmological) theories of Birkeland, Alfvén, Bruce, and Peratt (and others) have been subject to empirical tests (i.e. are they consistent with multiple, independently obtained *quantitative* observations?), ... and they have failed all such tests.
Now the only theories Birkeland proposed that could, by any stretch of the imagination, be considered cosmological were his ideas on the nature of galaxies ('spiral nebulae' is the term he used, IIRC).

We can go through those ideas (again) if you like, and you will be shown (again) that they are inconsistent with subsequent astronomical observations ...
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Old 22nd June 2009, 11:28 AM   #115
Michael Mozina
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Originally Posted by Tubbythin View Post
This is an excellent illustration, Michael, that you haven't even the slightest idea what science is. You could call dark energy "Qwertyuiop theory" if you wanted. It wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to the theory.
Then you have a big problem because you can't distinguish between "magic garbage" and "dark energy". Neither one of them shows up in an empirical test and you can slap the same exact math to either label.

Quote:
You see, science is all about quantitative measurement.
Nope. It also has a "qualitative requirement" that you seem to completely ignore. Math related to invisible elves is irrelevant without some evidence that such things actually exist in nature, no matter how many times you point at the sky and claim: "Invisible elves did it, here's the math".

Quote:
And comparison of that quantitative measurement to a quantitative theory.
You forgot to *QUALIFY* your theory first! You can't even directly "measure" anything by way, you *ASSUME* measurements from a host of *ASSUMPTIONS* that are themselves highly subjective.

Quote:
We then use the level of agreement between quantitative measurement and quantitative theory to judge how well the theory matches the measurement.
This would be great if you did it the way Birkeland did it, and used real control mechanisms and real scientific experiments to test your ideas in a QUALIFICATION sort of way. Since you can't even tell me where "dark energy" comes from, how would you even create a "control mechanism" for it? You can't. You therefore can't distinguish between "magic energy" and "dark energy" because the math could be applied to *ANYTHING*, including magic elves.

Quote:
Now since making a new name for an old theory has absolutely no effect on the quantitative predictions made by the theory, the name is completely totally and utterly irrelevant.
Then you don't mind if I call you theory "Magic Lambda-religion theory" do you? You can slap math to all the invisible forces you like, but you can't demonstrate any of them actually exist in nature. It's therefore pointless to point at the sky and just make stuff up.

Quote:
Now, you've had a number of links given to quantitative aspects of such things as dark matter
All you can demonstrate with these references is that you grossly *and I mean grossly* underestimate the mass of a galaxy. You can't demonstrate any of this is related to any form of exotic "dark matter". All you can demonstrate is the failure of your own galaxy mass estimates this way, nothing more. The only way you could hope to demonstrate SUSY particles in a lab, but alas they don't show up in a lab, nor does "Dark energy" or "inflation faeries" or any of the stuff you guys put faith in.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 11:39 AM   #116
DeiRenDopa
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Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
It is not off topic since Birkeland first proposed this solar model and doesn't work outside of an EU context.

When oh when did you folk intend to offer "better" scientific explanations for the RD and Doppler images? Did you intend to hide from these images forever?
Originally Posted by Michael Mozina
That RD and Doppler image are the basis of my "EU" oriented solar theories. Do you have a "better" scientific explanation for these two images, yes or no? Stop avoiding my questions.
Gish would be proud MM, truly proud ...

I wasn't aware that you had any (scientific) theories, MM.

May I ask if any of your theories makes use of the term 'pressure'? or 'energy'? If so, how, in those theories, are these terms defined?

And may I ask why you characterise your so-called theories as 'Electric Universe'? Did you receive special permission from the EU cult leaders?

Oh, and do you account for the data presented in those images (they are, after all, data), quantitatively, by application of your theory? In a manner that anyone can independently and objectively verify?

You see, I checked the references you've cited, and can find no mention whatsoever of any quantitative analyses which show consistency with your so-called theory. For starters, I can find no way to even begin to model the Sun's surface (let alone subsurface), quantitatively, from anything you've written ...
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Old 22nd June 2009, 12:03 PM   #117
Michael Mozina
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Originally Posted by DeiRenDopa View Post
Way to go MM, way to go!

Later in the very same post you contradict yourself!

Or, in plain English (let alone the criteria used in astronomy), he failed (his model is inconsistent with astronomical observations).

We can go further.
Your notion of a "failure" seems to ignore the possibility of a "partially correct" answer. Why? You can't write off his whole work over one missed "prediction".

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In Birkeland's model, Saturn's rings are self-luminous in the visual waveband.
Define "self luminous". There was nothing "Self luminous" about his rings. The rings emitted visible light due to the electrical currents in them. Today we know they don't emit as much visible light as they emit other wavelengths. So what?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0824130101.htm

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So, his model failed.
No. His *ring model* was "somewhat incorrect". You again fail to acknowledge that rings *DO EMIT LIGHT*, just not in the *VISIBLE* wavelengths per se.

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We discussed plenty of other failures in the thread you yourself started MM, and in which you had ample opportunity to provide detailed, quantitative explanations which showed the consistency between Birkeland's actually published work and subsequent astronomical observations. You failed to do so, and so, by your own standards, Birkeland's ideas did too.
Bull.

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In Birkeland's own writings, he proposes that the Sun emits relativistic electrons (using today's terms; the solar wind is composed of relativistic electrons). His published work includes pages and pages on the derivation of this idea (quantitatively, using equations etc), backed up by pages and pages of reports of his terrella experiments.
What he proposes is that the sun acts as a cathode compared to interstellar space.

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However, as has been known for many decades now, the solar wind does not consist of relativistic electrons.
The solar wind most certainly does contain electrons DRD, and protons and other charged particles exactly AS HE *PREDICTED* 100 YEARS AGO. The notion of "relativistic electrons" is simply "spin" on your part. They were "real electrons" in his experiments.

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Ergo, Birkeland's idea/model has failed, in the sense that it is inconsistent with objective, independently verified observations.
But it is not completely inconsistent with with verified observation. We note that rings emit light at other wavelengths, not necessarily at the visible spectrum, but the *cause* is exactly the same, it's simply a question of *WHICH WAVELENGTHS* we observe.

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I must say that I did not expect you to be so blatant and forthright in admitting that you lied.
You are the single most unethical debater I have ever met.

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Perhaps you did actually present "Bruce's work" in this forum?
(bold added)
I have presented his work on my website and have for 3 or 4 years now. Did you ever bother to read it in all that time?

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Now the only theories Birkeland proposed that could, by any stretch of the imagination, be considered cosmological were his ideas on the nature of galaxies ('spiral nebulae' is the term he used, IIRC).
Nice how you attempt to exclude solar system functions from the rest of the cosmos. I hate to break it to you, but the same things that apply here in this solar system also apply elsewhere in the galaxy and have an effect on the rest of the galaxy and the rest of the universe. Since you folks can't even explain solar wind, you don't have a single clue about how "cosmology" works even at the local level, let alone at larger scales.

What I'd like to see you or anyone else here do is "explain" that RD and Doppler image using standard solar theory. Which standard solar theory predicted the existed of a rigid stratification subsurface? What are those rigid features in those images DRD? You can run from the real data or but you can't hide. Birkeland *PREDICTED* there to be a "surface" located at a shallow depth under the photosphere. Your model does not. Heliosiesmology demonstrates there is one and Birkeland was correct. You're ignoring his whole solar model. Why? Because he was right, and you can't explain those images, that's why.

I know Birkeland was right now because in 4 years, not one of you has been man or woman enough to stand up to the plate and explain these solar images in a "better" scientific way using a standard solar model. You can belittle Birkeland's work all you like, but he didn't have a "religion", he created a "working model", something you folks have *NEVER* done and never could hope to do. More importantly he "predicted" key observations that your model does not, including fast solar wind, high energy coronal loops, high speed plasma jets, and a host of other observations that we have seen in solar satellite images. His model was correct and correctly predicts key satellite based heliosiesmology data. Your model does not. Not one single standard solar model "predicts' those rigid features we see in the heliosiesmology images and data sets and none of you can explain these features using a standard solar model. You're dishonest in your approach too because you will *NOT* address the images, instead you attack the credibility of the messenger. That is a sure sign that your beliefs are not "scientific", they are based upon emotion, specifically fear.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 12:20 PM   #118
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Michael Mozina View Post
Define "self luminous". There was nothing "Self luminous" about his rings.
If you don't know what self-luminous means, then how can you conclude that his rings weren't? And they were self-luminous: the light was emitted by the rings, as opposed to reflected from some other source.

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No. His *ring model* was "somewhat incorrect".
No, it was totally incorrect. There's a reason Saturn's rings follow Keplerian orbits.

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What he proposes is that the sun acts as a cathode compared to interstellar space.
It doesn't.

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The solar wind most certainly does contain electrons DRD, and protons and other charged particles exactly AS HE *PREDICTED* 100 YEARS AGO. The notion of "relativistic electrons" is simply "spin" on your part. They were "real electrons" in his experiments.
Do you know what "relativistic" even means in this context? No, you do not. The fact that those electrons are not relativistic demonstrates that the mechanism which expels them from the sun is not the same as what Birkeland proposed, since their relativistic speeds was a central prediction of his model. Furthermore, if the sun was acting as a cathode, then any proton flow should be in the opposite direction of the electron flow. But that's not what's happening.

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But it is not completely inconsistent with with verified observation.
It is inconsistent. Your "completely" qualifier is irrelevant.

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We note that rings emit light at other wavelengths, not necessarily at the visible spectrum, but the *cause* is exactly the same, it's simply a question of *WHICH WAVELENGTHS* we observe.
No, it is not. If it were the same mechanism, we would get visible light as well.

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Nice how you attempt to exclude solar system functions from the rest of the cosmos. I hate to break it to you, but the same things that apply here in this solar system also apply elsewhere in the galaxy and have an effect on the rest of the galaxy and the rest of the universe. Since you folks can't even explain solar wind, you don't have a single clue about how "cosmology" works even at the local level, let alone at larger scales.
Yeah, um... no. The solar winds are a negligible mass fraction of the solar system. Gravity rather obviously dominates the motion of almost all the mass of the solar system. By your own standard, then, we should expect gravity to dominate the motion of the majority of mass in the rest of the universe, and hence cosmology.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 12:20 PM   #119
Michael Mozina
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Originally Posted by DeiRenDopa View Post
Gish would be proud MM, truly proud ...
And who would be proud of you and the way you avoid direct evidence and satellite images, and heliosiesmology data, etc?

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I wasn't aware that you had any (scientific) theories, MM.
I wasn't aware you were so petty of a person either, but I'm learning. These were never "my" ideas, they came directly from Birkeland and his work. I'm just the messenger, 100 years after the fact.

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May I ask if any of your theories makes use of the term 'pressure'?
Sure you can ask, it' doesn't mean I'll answer. That is a red herring whereas the images you are avoiding and the heliosiesmology data you are avoiding are directly related to this theory.


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And may I ask why you characterise your so-called theories as 'Electric Universe'? Did you receive special permission from the EU cult leaders?
Cults require "faith" in things that don't show up in a lab. I don't know of any EU cults because electricity isn't shy around a lab. Your beliefs on the other hand are very "cult like" indeed. They require "absolute faith" in things that can never be empirically demonstrated in controlled experiments. In fact it requires faith in a *DEAD* entity that based on the beloved dogma doesn't even exist anymore! You have faith in things that *DO NOT EVEN STILL EXIST IN NATURE*.

Care to address the images, yes or no? Man(woman) or mouse?

Last edited by Michael Mozina; 22nd June 2009 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 12:23 PM   #120
Michael Mozina
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If you don't know what self-luminous means, then how can you conclude that his rings weren't? And they were self-luminous: the light was emitted by the rings, as opposed to reflected from some other source.
Indeed light is emitted from these rings, just not visible light. The emission however is related to "current flow", not the particles themselves. They are not "self luminous" anymore than a florescent bulb is "Self luminous" in the absence of electricity.

It's getting busy at work. I'll deal with the rest of your post as I get time. You will however note that nothing "self luminates" in Birkeland's work. It's all driven by electrical currents.
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