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Old 1st January 2022, 12:28 PM   #321
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The cold side temperatures have dropped considerably

Primary Mirror: -88°C (down from -44°C yesterday)
Instrument Radiator: -183°C (down from -144°C yesterday)

The sunshield is having the desired effect
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Old 1st January 2022, 07:21 PM   #322
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I had a pessimistic thought that bothered me about the sun shield. If there’s a hole or a rip in it would they be able to know? Nobody can see it directly anymore. They just have whatever the sensors can detect. Eventually it would become evident because the cold side wouldn’t get as cold as it’s supposed to be.
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Old 1st January 2022, 08:03 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I had a pessimistic thought that bothered me about the sun shield. If there’s a hole or a rip in it would they be able to know? Nobody can see it directly anymore. They just have whatever the sensors can detect. Eventually it would become evident because the cold side wouldn’t get as cold as it’s supposed to be.
https://webb.nasa.gov/content/observ...sunshield.html
"Special Seaming

The membrane material is tough, but if it gets a small tear or hole, the hole could become much larger. So, there is a special process called a Thermal Spot Bond (TSB) - areas where each layer are melted together. In addition, reinforcing strips of membrane material are Thermal Spot Bonded to the parent membrane about every 6 feet or so, forming a grid pattern of "rip-stops."

"This has been shown through testing to arrest a tear and keep it from extending outside of a given grid area," said Cooper. So, if a hole occurs in a layer of the sunshield from a meteoroid, or small meteor, the size of the damage is limited. These are not intended to stop a meteoroid, but rather to contain the area of damage."
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Old 1st January 2022, 08:08 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I had a pessimistic thought that bothered me about the sun shield. If there’s a hole or a rip in it would they be able to know? Nobody can see it directly anymore. They just have whatever the sensors can detect. Eventually it would become evident because the cold side wouldn’t get as cold as it’s supposed to be.
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
https://webb.nasa.gov/content/observ...sunshield.html
"Special Seaming

The membrane material is tough, but if it gets a small tear or hole, the hole could become much larger. So, there is a special process called a Thermal Spot Bond (TSB) - areas where each layer are melted together. In addition, reinforcing strips of membrane material are Thermal Spot Bonded to the parent membrane about every 6 feet or so, forming a grid pattern of "rip-stops."

"This has been shown through testing to arrest a tear and keep it from extending outside of a given grid area," said Cooper. So, if a hole occurs in a layer of the sunshield from a meteoroid, or small meteor, the size of the damage is limited. These are not intended to stop a meteoroid, but rather to contain the area of damage."
Seems that the NASA professionals have already anticipated (and hopefully solved) any problem that us amateurs here can come up with
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Old 1st January 2022, 08:33 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Seems that the NASA professionals have already anticipated (and hopefully solved) any problem that us amateurs here can come up with
Well, they've had around 25 years to work things out.

After spending $10 Bil or so, the extra cost of a few GoPro's so we could see what 's goin on would've been a good idea
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Old 1st January 2022, 09:58 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Well, they've had around 25 years to work things out.

After spending $10 Bil or so, the extra cost of a few GoPro's so we could see what 's goin on would've been a good idea
I know you are kidding, but that is also a serious question; one that quite a few people have asked. It seems that the addition of cameras to watch adds an extra heat load that the telescope would have to compensate for to operate at its target temperature of around 7°K (-266°C)

And in any case, they don't need cameras to see what is going on because this spacecraft has sensors for Africa! As each step is carried out, they know exactly what data they should see from an array of sensors all over the spacecraft. They can pretty detect anything that goes wrong during the deployment from analysis of that sensor data.

For example, yesterday sensors indicated that the activation of the switches which released the sun-shield covers did not take place when it was supposed to, which if true, means they might not have rolled up correctly. This needed to happen before the mid-booms were extended otherwise there would be a risk of tearing the shield. However, they were able to determine that the cover did indeed roll up from looking at two secondary pieces of sensor data

1. Data from temperature sensors showed a drop in temperature from a sensor that had to have been blocked by the cover rolling up, and

2. Data from sensors attached to a gyroscope indicated motion consistent with the sun-shield cover release devices being activated.
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Old 1st January 2022, 10:36 PM   #327
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The latest from NASA's mission blog:

https://blogs.nasa.gov/webb/

Quote:
Work on the deployment of Webb’s sunshield mid-booms went late into the night yesterday. Webb mission management decided this morning to pause deployment activities for today and allow the team to rest and prepare to begin Webb’s sunshield tensioning tomorrow, Sunday, Jan. 2. That deployment is still expected to take place over at least two days.

This will likely affect the full timeline for Webb’s deployment. The timeline will be updated as major deployments resume.
Extending the booms did take longer than anticipated, but nevertheless appears to have been successful. So they called it a day and decided to begin the tensioning process Sunday.

Quote:
While the deployments took longer than expected today, that was due to the operations team moving forward with caution and according to the protocols they laid out for dealing with unpredictable situations.

“Today is an example of why we continue to say that we don’t think our deployment schedule might change, but that we expect it to change,” Parrish said. “The team did what we had rehearsed for this kind of situation – stop, assess, and move forward methodically with a plan. We still have a long way to go with this whole deployment process.”
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Old 1st January 2022, 10:37 PM   #328
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A scientist looking at data > a non-scientist looking at a photo.
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Old 2nd January 2022, 09:35 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Well, they've had around 25 years to work things out.

After spending $10 Bil or so, the extra cost of a few GoPro's so we could see what 's goin on would've been a good idea
Aside from the mentioned problem of added heat load, the other factor arguing against this is, what good would it do? Suppose there's a rip, and we see it with the camera. What then? There's no way to do anything about the rip. It can't be repaired. So how does seeing it help? It really doesn't.
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Old 2nd January 2022, 10:48 AM   #330
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I suspect if they were designing and building the telescope now, they would put a camera on it. It probably wouldn't have much practical use. But, GoPro type cameras are now inexpensive, low-power, reliable, and able to produce highly-compressed video streams, so they might have added one just because they could.

Back when the JWST was being designed, though, adding a camera just to give us a view of the spacecraft would have been a much larger and expensive endeavor.
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Old 2nd January 2022, 12:33 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by jadebox View Post
I suspect if they were designing and building the telescope now, they would put a camera on it. It probably wouldn't have much practical use. But, GoPro type cameras are now inexpensive, low-power, reliable, and able to produce highly-compressed video streams, so they might have added one just because they could.
The cost of the camera isn't the issue. This is a multi-billion dollar project, even 20 years ago a camera wouldn't have cost much.

But on a project like this, you don't put an ounce of weight on the thing if you don't have a damn good reason to. A camera would have been more weight, it would have been increased thermal transfer, and it would have offered no actual benefit to mission control.
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Old 2nd January 2022, 12:56 PM   #332
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Uh, yeah, the cost of the camera is nothing compared to the $2,500 cost of launching it into space. And launch cost is just the tip of the ice berg. I'd expect the dominant cost is all the one off engineering making sure everything is going to work well together.
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Old 2nd January 2022, 02:03 PM   #333
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An aside while we await more deployment action . . .

If JWST or subsequent technologies every find really good evidence of some forms of life on other planets, would that pose a problem/threat to current religious beliefs? I think it would have to, but when I asked a “DIY” Christian friend recently he quickly said “No, of course not”. When I bombarded him with a barrage of “what about” and “yeah but” examples of how and why it should, he just hand-waved them all away with silly “God works in mysterious ways” and “We can’t understand the mind and workings of God” type dodges.
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Old 2nd January 2022, 04:32 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The cost of the camera isn't the issue. This is a multi-billion dollar project, even 20 years ago a camera wouldn't have cost much.

But on a project like this, you don't put an ounce of weight on the thing if you don't have a damn good reason to. A camera would have been more weight, it would have been increased thermal transfer, and it would have offered no actual benefit to mission control.
All true. The other issue is with outgassing of commercial parts. The first space GPS receivers in LEO lasted hours, not days or years, due to commercial parts failures.
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Old 2nd January 2022, 04:43 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Uh, yeah, the cost of the camera is nothing compared to the $2,500 cost of launching it into space. And launch cost is just the tip of the ice berg. I'd expect the dominant cost is all the one off engineering making sure everything is going to work well together.
Crikey! - I might be able to afford to send something to L2!
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Old 2nd January 2022, 04:54 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by hecd2 View Post
Crikey! - I might be able to afford to send something to L2!
Unfortunately, that's the bulk rate and you need 20,000 friends who want to send their GoPros to orbit qualify for that rate.
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Old 2nd January 2022, 04:54 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by hecd2 View Post
Crikey! - I might be able to afford to send something to L2!
Got someone who is pissing you off?
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Old 2nd January 2022, 05:25 PM   #338
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Tensioning of the sunshield has been delayed until tomorrow. Instead they have decided to focus today on optimizing Webb’s power systems while learning more about how the observatory behaves in space.

Cold side temperatures have continued to fall.

Primary Mirror: -116°C (down from -88°C yesterday)
Instrument Radiator: -192°C (down from -183°C yesterday)
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Old 2nd January 2022, 06:00 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Tensioning of the sunshield has been delayed until tomorrow. Instead they have decided to focus today on optimizing Webb’s power systems while learning more about how the observatory behaves in space.
I read that in their blog post:

https://blogs.nasa.gov/webb/2022/01/...ry-operations/

I hope it only means that they're being extra cautious and not that they've run into trouble of some sort.
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Old 2nd January 2022, 06:29 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I hope it only means that they're being extra cautious and not that they've run into trouble of some sort.
Any reason for that interpretation? I read it as less cautious and more confident.
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Old 2nd January 2022, 07:16 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Any reason for that interpretation? I read it as less cautious and more confident.
Well, I don't know, but it is a change in the planned schedule.
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Old 3rd January 2022, 01:49 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Well, I don't know, but it is a change in the planned schedule.
This is a pilot dilemma. Is the plane better with a pilot who can react to events?
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Old 3rd January 2022, 02:23 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
This is a pilot dilemma. Is the plane better with a pilot who can react to events?
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Old 3rd January 2022, 03:49 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
This is a pilot dilemma. Is the plane better with a pilot who can react to events?
Absolutely. I just hope that there are no particular events that need reacting to, other than routine events.
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Old 3rd January 2022, 04:02 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
This is a pilot dilemma. Is the plane better with a pilot who can react to events?
Well I.......... er............ahh............um........... No. No, it is not.
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Old 3rd January 2022, 07:30 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
An aside while we await more deployment action . . .

If JWST or subsequent technologies every find really good evidence of some forms of life on other planets, would that pose a problem/threat to current religious beliefs? I think it would have to, but when I asked a “DIY” Christian friend recently he quickly said “No, of course not”. When I bombarded him with a barrage of “what about” and “yeah but” examples of how and why it should, he just hand-waved them all away with silly “God works in mysterious ways” and “We can’t understand the mind and workings of God” type dodges.
Well why would alien life pose a problem for religion?

Mainstream Christian doctrine has long held Genesis to be metaphorical and not literal. I can see some possible open theological questions with, for example, whether intelligent extraterestrial life had a soul, could go to heaven, should be converted, etc. But I don't see why the mere existence of alien life makes any real difference.
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Old 3rd January 2022, 10:44 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Absolutely. I just hope that there are no particular events that need reacting to, other than routine events.
I'm not reading this as a problem. I'm reading it as them having the luxury of doing something they prefer to do rather than something they urgently need to do. So, I'm reading this as the opposite of reactionary.
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Old 3rd January 2022, 11:06 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
An aside while we await more deployment action . . .

If JWST or subsequent technologies every find really good evidence of some forms of life on other planets, would that pose a problem/threat to current religious beliefs? I think it would have to, but when I asked a “DIY” Christian friend recently he quickly said “No, of course not”. When I bombarded him with a barrage of “what about” and “yeah but” examples of how and why it should, he just hand-waved them all away with silly “God works in mysterious ways” and “We can’t understand the mind and workings of God” type dodges.
My Mormon in-laws have been known to give telescopes as Christmas presents. Yeah, I know.
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Old 3rd January 2022, 11:08 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
An aside while we await more deployment action . . .

If JWST or subsequent technologies every find really good evidence of some forms of life on other planets, would that pose a problem/threat to current religious beliefs? I think it would have to, but when I asked a “DIY” Christian friend recently he quickly said “No, of course not”. When I bombarded him with a barrage of “what about” and “yeah but” examples of how and why it should, he just hand-waved them all away with silly “God works in mysterious ways” and “We can’t understand the mind and workings of God” type dodges.
To be fair, he gave the most reasonable and appropriate response to a barrage of “what about” and “yeah but” examples.
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Old 3rd January 2022, 12:32 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Fidelio View Post
My Mormon in-laws have been known to give telescopes as Christmas presents. Yeah, I know.
Can they see the planets each male is going to inherit?

Back on topic, they are now happier with things and have proceeded to start tensioning.
https://blogs.nasa.gov/webb/
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Old 3rd January 2022, 12:38 PM   #351
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VERY SORRY for my post #333 in this thread and this section of the forum. It belongs in the Religion and Philosophy section and I’d be happy for the Mods to move it there. Let’s not sully the importance of JWST by mixing it with invisible, magical, sky-daddy beliefs.

To be fair I didn’t start it - “As we peer back in time and capture the light from the very beginning of the creation” – Bill Nelson “NASA Administrator” .
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Old 3rd January 2022, 01:23 PM   #352
The Great Zaganza
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theological criticism of the Jame Webb Telescope:

Quote:
"You just let the machines get on with the adding up, and we'll take care of the eternal verities thank you very much. You want to check your legal position you do mate. Under law the Quest for Ultimate Truth is quite clearly the inalienable prerogative of your working thinkers. Any bloody machine goes and actually finds it and we're straight out of a job aren't we? I mean what's the use of our sitting up half the night arguing that there may or may not be a God if this machine only goes and gives us his bleeding phone number the next morning?"
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Old 3rd January 2022, 01:44 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Well, they've had around 25 years to work things out.

After spending $10 Bil or so, the extra cost of a few GoPro's so we could see what 's goin on would've been a good idea ; )
I'm pretty sure if NASA thought an onboard camera was the most effective way to instrument their telescope, they would have included onboard cameras. My understanding is that pretty much everything that goes up is already instrumented the best way possible.
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Old 3rd January 2022, 01:47 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
VERY SORRY for my post #333 in this thread and this section of the forum. It belongs in the Religion and Philosophy section and I’d be happy for the Mods to move it there. Let’s not sully the importance of JWST by mixing it with invisible, magical, sky-daddy beliefs.

To be fair I didn’t start it - “As we peer back in time and capture the light from the very beginning of the creation” – Bill Nelson “NASA Administrator” .
It's called a figure of speech.
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Old 3rd January 2022, 02:03 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
theological criticism of the Jame Webb Telescope:
Absolutely!!! "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty."
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Old 3rd January 2022, 02:41 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's called a figure of speech.
“Figure of speech” my arse!!! Just another version of claiming “It’s allegorical” when it suits.
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Old 3rd January 2022, 02:48 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm pretty sure if NASA thought an onboard camera was the most effective way to instrument their telescope, they would have included onboard cameras. My understanding is that pretty much everything that goes up is already instrumented the best way possible.
Well . . .

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I know you are kidding
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Old 3rd January 2022, 03:34 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
VERY SORRY for my post #333 in this thread and this section of the forum. It belongs in the Religion and Philosophy section and I’d be happy for the Mods to move it there. Let’s not sully the importance of JWST by mixing it with invisible, magical, sky-daddy beliefs.

To be fair I didn’t start it - “As we peer back in time and capture the light from the very beginning of the creation” – Bill Nelson “NASA Administrator” .
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's called a figure of speech.
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
“Figure of speech” my arse!!! Just another version of claiming “It’s allegorical” when it suits.
Well I watched Bill Nelson's rambling "God bothering" statement live during the launch. First thought was "Who the hell is this idiot? Why is is saying all that crap?" I thought it was utterly cringeworthy.

What the hell were they thinking appointing this old fool as head of NASA - he's nearly 80 FFS. The NASA administrator needs to be someone younger with enthusiasm and fresh ideas.

Bring back Jim Bridenstine!!

.
.
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Old 3rd January 2022, 04:21 PM   #359
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Meanwhile, back in the real Universe . . .

"Today, at 3:48 pm EST, the Webb team finished tensioning the first layer of the observatory’s sunshield– that is, tightening it into its final, completely taut position. This is the first of five layers that will each be tightened in turn over the next two to three days, until the observatory’s sunshield is fully deployed."

https://blogs.nasa.gov/webb/2022/01/...eld-tightened/

Hope the next four go as well . . .

"The team has now begun tensioning the second layer."
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Old 3rd January 2022, 04:41 PM   #360
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Have started a "Would extra-terrestrial life threaten god beliefs?" thread in the Religion and Philosophy section so this thread doesn't become to tainted.

.
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