IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 23rd August 2022, 07:44 AM   #41
Armitage72
Philosopher
 
Armitage72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 7,332
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's not a problem, nor sloppy plotting. That's what makes time travel stories fun.

I don't think I've seen the episode since it originally aired, but looking at summaries online I'm seeing references to Zathras bringing the Triluminaries and the chrysalis machine from Epsilon III and giving them to Sinclair. If correct, that would mean the ones that went back in time were the same ones used in the other episodes, but from an earlier point in their history, so they were created at some point and then left on Epsilon III.
Armitage72 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2022, 12:52 PM   #42
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sorth Dakonsin
Posts: 27,076
I once tried to come up with all the time-travel devices/vehicles/trinkets I could think of in programs and movies I've seen. Aside from all the non-named ones that are basically just "Time Machine", and without naming the sources (a little puzzle for you), there's

The Time Tunnel
The Atavochron
The Guardian of Forever
The Tardis
A motorcyle (the reference above made me think of this post)
A DeLorean
A train
A phone booth
A coin
The Time Twister (?)
The Time Gem
A Starship using The Slingshot method
A hot tub
The Omega-13
__________________
Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.

Last edited by alfaniner; 23rd August 2022 at 12:55 PM.
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2022, 01:28 PM   #43
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 61,381
I wonder if the branching multiverse concept would be considered blasphemous in Islam. The implication that you can create better and worse versions of Allah's plan might be problematic. Or it might not. Maybe Allah isn't that kind of planner.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2022, 03:53 PM   #44
Myriad
The Clarity Is Devastating
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
Posts: 19,492
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I once tried to come up with all the time-travel devices/vehicles/trinkets I could think of in programs and movies I've seen. Aside from all the non-named ones that are basically just "Time Machine", and without naming the sources (a little puzzle for you), there's

The Time Tunnel
The Atavochron
The Guardian of Forever
The Tardis
A motorcyle (the reference above made me think of this post)
A DeLorean
A train
A phone booth
A coin
The Time Twister (?)
The Time Gem
A Starship using The Slingshot method
A hot tub
The Omega-13

Vortex Manipulator (Doctor Who)
A storm or vortex, possibly a natural phenomenon (The Final Countdown)
The Ocarina of Time (Legend of Zelda)
The Sands/Dagger of Time (Prince of Persia)
The Time Turner (Harry Potter) (Is that what you meant by Time Twister?)
The Wayback Machine (Mr. Peabody and Sherman)
The Time Stone/Green Infinity Stone (MCU) (Is that what you meant by Time Gem?)
Pym Particles/Quantum Realm (MCU)
__________________
A zømbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2022, 03:54 PM   #45
Emre_1974tr
Muse
 
Emre_1974tr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Turkey
Posts: 986
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I wonder if the branching multiverse concept would be considered blasphemous in Islam. .

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611687.0
Emre_1974tr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2022, 04:00 PM   #46
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 61,381
Pym Particles in the MCU? I'm not seeing it.

But there's also relativistic idling, as described in The Forever War by Joe Haldeman. And C. J. Cherryh's gates, from her Morgaine Cycle. And Larry Niven has a story about a weaponized Tipler Cylinder.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2022, 04:02 PM   #47
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 61,381
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Thank you so much for being uniquely positioned in this thread to give me a clear answer, and also doing the exact opposite. Please go back a few minutes and try again.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2022, 04:22 PM   #48
Emre_1974tr
Muse
 
Emre_1974tr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Turkey
Posts: 986
the difficulty of time travel on a planet

Is the possibility of finding yourself pressed in the vacuum of space or in the soil/rock of the planet in the time period you teleport to as a result of the constant movement of the planet.
Emre_1974tr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2022, 04:24 PM   #49
Myriad
The Clarity Is Devastating
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
Posts: 19,492
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Pym Particles in the MCU? I'm not seeing it.

Used for time travel in Avengers: Endgame. The Pym Particles are treated more like the fuel, and the process involves the quantum realm, but whatever additional machinery is involved is left a bit vague. There's a machine in the movie's present, but characters back in time can make additional backward jumps by obtaining more Pym Particles without returning to the original machine. Some kind of modified version of Ant Man's shrinking suit also seems to be involved.
__________________
A zømbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2022, 04:37 PM   #50
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 27,425
You already started one thread about time travel. If you want to discuss it further, post in the same thread, don't start a new one.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2022, 04:41 PM   #51
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 61,381
Sidereal motion of a planet seems easy enough to account for, when implementing time travel.

Have you really just discovered this corner of speculative fiction? It's pretty well populated with interesting and exciting stories.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2022, 05:36 PM   #52
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
HansMustermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 21,108
Actually, movement in WHICH coordinate system? ('Chart' lest someone objects to my using the wrong terms again.) Most of these ideas presuppose that there is some fixed point, and the Earth moved relative to that. But the whole point of special relativity is that fundamentally there is no preferred frame. Well, not among inertial frames, at the very least. The frame of the railway station and that of the train going 100 mph past it are equally good.

General relativity has you deal with acceleration and is a bit more of a pain in the rear, but basically still, you can transform between almost any two frames. Well, as long as you don't have some coordinate singularity, like going through an event horizon.

But anyway, even presupposing a preferred frame, i.e., basically a fixed point in the universe... are you sure it's that easy? What movement do you take into account? Just Earth around the Sun? Also Sun around the centre of the galaxy? Galaxy in relation to the local cluster? The dark flow towards the Great Attractor? Universe expansion, if that point isn't pretty much on top of us?

(I mean, bound systems move in relation to where the 'here' coordinate would be a million years ago. Think two treadmills put front to front, running in opposite directions. The 'you are here' point moves away from the centre over time. But if you put two footballs tied with a rubber band to each other on that system, they stay at the same distance from each other. Essentially they both move relative to where their respective previous 'you are here' point was.)

Or are you sure that for time travel over really vast time intervals, you even know every asteroid that passed close and gave Earth a wee bit of a gravitational nudge?

Now some of those corrections may or may not be small (I expect the Hubble expansion one to be really negligible at these scales, for example), but you don't need to miss that mark by a lot to end up dead anyway. E.g., you just need to end up 10 ft (3m or so) underground with your DeLorean at 88mph to be dead.


Granted, that IS thinking it through a bit further through than Emre apparently did.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 23rd August 2022 at 05:51 PM.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2022, 07:37 PM   #53
Myriad
The Clarity Is Devastating
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
Posts: 19,492
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Actually, movement in WHICH coordinate system? ('Chart' lest someone objects to my using the wrong terms again.) Most of these ideas presuppose that there is some fixed point, and the Earth moved relative to that. But the whole point of special relativity is that fundamentally there is no preferred frame. Well, not among inertial frames, at the very least. The frame of the railway station and that of the train going 100 mph past it are equally good.

General relativity has you deal with acceleration and is a bit more of a pain in the rear, but basically still, you can transform between almost any two frames. Well, as long as you don't have some coordinate singularity, like going through an event horizon.

But anyway, even presupposing a preferred frame, i.e., basically a fixed point in the universe... are you sure it's that easy? What movement do you take into account? Just Earth around the Sun? Also Sun around the centre of the galaxy? Galaxy in relation to the local cluster? The dark flow towards the Great Attractor? Universe expansion, if that point isn't pretty much on top of us?

(I mean, bound systems move in relation to where the 'here' coordinate would be a million years ago. Think two treadmills put front to front, running in opposite directions. The 'you are here' point moves away from the centre over time. But if you put two footballs tied with a rubber band to each other on that system, they stay at the same distance from each other. Essentially they both move relative to where their respective previous 'you are here' point was.)

Or are you sure that for time travel over really vast time intervals, you even know every asteroid that passed close and gave Earth a wee bit of a gravitational nudge?

Now some of those corrections may or may not be small (I expect the Hubble expansion one to be really negligible at these scales, for example), but you don't need to miss that mark by a lot to end up dead anyway. E.g., you just need to end up 10 ft (3m or so) underground with your DeLorean at 88mph to be dead.


Granted, that IS thinking it through a bit further through than Emre apparently did.

One easy answer is to just make your time machine also a spacecraft, like the TARDIS. It might have to travel vast distances to catch up with Earth, but if you can make it travel in time you probably already have the traveling-in-space problems licked.

Another possibility is... simple gravity. One way of visualizing forward time travel is the time machine (say, the DeLorean with Einstein in it going one minute into the future) just freezes in place, from the point of view of Doc and Marty watching from outside. They wouldn't be able see inside because no light would come out of it (and it would probably be super-cold, and various other thermodynamic problems) and there would be practical problems (on a long trip to the future it would get in the way; what happens if someone tries to move it?), but there's no reason to expect it to suddenly fly off the Earth instead of staying in place. Now, what we see instead is that it disappears and reappears, but wherever it is during that minute, it could continue to follow the spacetime trajectory it was on, or in other words, continue to be pulled by Earth's gravity. The same could just as easily be true of the reverse trajectory of backward time travel. Why would the machine follow the Earth's course backward in time? No idea. Why wouldn't it? Still no idea!
__________________
A zømbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2022, 09:12 PM   #54
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 77,830
This is also how Welles' Time Machine is usually rendered. It stays in place while the world changes around it. Another demonstration of this principle is in the first episode of Futurama.
__________________
? > !
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2022, 11:58 PM   #55
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,428
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It you really wanted to do away with Adolf Hitler then it would be easier to travel back to 9 months before Adolf was born, stop Alois Hitler in the street and ask him for the time. That should be sufficient to change the result of the sperm race.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2022, 01:37 AM   #56
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 104,539
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It you really wanted to do away with Adolf Hitler then it would be easier to travel back to 9 months before Adolf was born, stop Alois Hitler in the street and ask him for the time. That should be sufficient to change the result of the sperm race.
Or better still - go a little bit further back and say "Eve that snake is trying to cause you problems don't listen to it".
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2022, 01:44 AM   #57
erwinl
Illuminator
 
erwinl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,291
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It you really wanted to do away with Adolf Hitler then it would be easier to travel back to 9 months before Adolf was born, stop Alois Hitler in the street and ask him for the time. That should be sufficient to change the result of the sperm race.
End then to find out that in the end Alois never did father dear little Adolf.
__________________
Bow before your king
Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"
erwinl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2022, 01:45 AM   #58
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 77,830
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It you really wanted to do away with Adolf Hitler then it would be easier to travel back to 9 months before Adolf was born, stop Alois Hitler in the street and ask him for the time. That should be sufficient to change the result of the sperm race.
But in this timeline, Alois was already delayed by someone stopping him to ask him the time.
__________________
? > !
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2022, 01:54 AM   #59
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 104,539
Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
End then to find out that in the end Alois never did father dear little Adolf.
That's been a staple of many a science fiction short story.

There's a variant used by James Blish with his "dirac" communicator a faster than light communication technology - has the property that all such communications are received by all such communicators throughout space and time. There is an agency tasked with protecting the population of the earth based universe, the population is always protected as the agency always seems to be able to take the right action at the right time, as if they know the future. They do as they use the dirac comms to report on events and everyone in the past makes sure that what needs to happen to happens. One of the functions of the agency is to see that everyone mentioned in a report via the beep gets to be born. Trainees are given the task to make sure parents of people mentioned in the beep meet up. They also have a cardinal rule - the death of someone is never to be communicated via the beep.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2022, 01:57 AM   #60
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 104,539
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
But in this timeline, Alois was already delayed by someone stopping him to ask him the time.
The silliness of the multiple timelines idea means it is pointless to do anything positive or negative - as everything will happen anyway no matter what you do.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2022, 02:14 AM   #61
Lplus
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,265
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I once tried to come up with all the time-travel devices/vehicles/trinkets I could think of in programs and movies I've seen. Aside from all the non-named ones that are basically just "Time Machine", and without naming the sources (a little puzzle for you), there's

The Time Tunnel
The Atavochron
The Guardian of Forever
The Tardis
A motorcyle (the reference above made me think of this post)
A DeLorean
A train
A phone booth
A coin
The Time Twister (?)
The Time Gem
A Starship using The Slingshot method
A hot tub
The Omega-13
The staship sounds like Niven's "World out of time" ?

Omega 13 was Galaxy Quest.
__________________

Life isn't fair, Princess; anyone who says it could be is selling a political ideology.
Whinging on internet forums is the last resort of the powerless
Lplus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2022, 02:42 AM   #62
Emre_1974tr
Muse
 
Emre_1974tr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Turkey
Posts: 986
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Is the possibility of finding yourself pressed in the vacuum of space or in the soil/rock of the planet in the time period you teleport to as a result of the constant movement of the planet.

I opened this as a separate thread but it was transferred to this thread.

If your time machine is not a spaceship, i.e. you have a time machine on a planet, you will probably find yourself pressed in the vacuum of space or inside a celestial body.
Emre_1974tr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2022, 02:43 AM   #63
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 14,959
Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
The staship sounds like Niven's "World out of time" ?
The starship slingshot round the sun is surely (original) Star Trek, which also has another entry earlier in the list.

The Omega 13 is definitely Galaxy Quest, I love that film.

There's several I can't identify, though. Maybe I'm not quite the SF nerd I thought I was.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

Last edited by Pixel42; 24th August 2022 at 02:44 AM.
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2022, 03:10 AM   #64
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 104,539
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
The starship slingshot round the sun is surely (original) Star Trek, which also has another entry earlier in the list.

The Omega 13 is definitely Galaxy Quest, I love that film.

There's several I can't identify, though. Maybe I'm not quite the SF nerd I thought I was.
A very nerdy one - a pond.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2022, 05:20 AM   #65
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sorth Dakonsin
Posts: 27,076
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I once tried to come up with all the time-travel devices/vehicles/trinkets I could think of in programs and movies I've seen. Aside from all the non-named ones that are basically just "Time Machine", and without naming the sources (a little puzzle for you), there's

The Time Tunnel
The Atavochron
The Guardian of Forever
The Tardis
A motorcyle (the reference above made me think of this post)
A DeLorean
A train
A phone booth
A coin
The Time Twister (?)
The Time Gem
A Starship using The Slingshot method
A hot tub
The Omega-13

The Time Tunnel (TV show)
The Atavochron (ST:TOS -- All Our Yesterdays)
The Guardian of Forever (ST:TOS - City on the Edge of Forever)
The Tardis (Doctor Who)
A motorcyle (the reference above made me think of this post) (TimeRider)
A DeLorean (Back to the Future)
A train (Back to the Future)
A phone booth (Bill and Ted Adventures)
A coin (Somewhere in Time)
The Time Twister (?) (Harry Potter -- corrected above)
The Time Gem (Marvel Universe )
A Starship using The Slingshot method (STIV:TVH specifically)
A hot tub (It's in the title)
The Omega-13 (Galaxy Quest)

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
A very nerdy one - a pond.
That sounds vaguely familiar -- and I certainly have my Nerd Card.
How about this one? A crowbar. (But it's a literary reference rather than a visual media one).
__________________
Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.

Last edited by alfaniner; 24th August 2022 at 05:23 AM.
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2022, 06:16 AM   #66
W.D.Clinger
Illuminator
 
W.D.Clinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,543
Reading on airplanes, when the reading lamp is aimed well enough to permit, I'm about 50 pages in to The Lathe of Heaven, by Ursula K Le Guin.

It doesn't seem to have anything to do with time travel, but it has everything to do with changing the world. Not just changing the present or future of the world—hey, we can do that much ourselves—but changing the past.

The title comes from Chapter XXIII of the Chuang Tse (Zhuangzi):
Those whom heaven helps we call the sons of heaven. They do not learn this by learning. They do not work it by working. They do not reason it by using reason. To let understanding stop at what cannot be understood is a high attainment. Those who cannot do it will be destroyed on the lathe of heaven.
As for the mechanism, that quotation offers a vague hint. Here's a more specific hint: Imagine what Nine Princes in Amber would have been like if Philip K Dick had written it.

In another thread, I quoted a paragraph of the book that turns out to have more to do with the topic of this thread than may be apparent.
W.D.Clinger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2022, 06:35 AM   #67
sp1ke
New Blood
 
Join Date: Mar 2022
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
A very nerdy one - a pond.
That sounds like Catweazle to me.
sp1ke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2022, 06:43 AM   #68
RecoveringYuppy
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 13,925
Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
End then to find out that in the end Alois never did father dear little Adolf.
And the delay leads to the birth of twin Hitlers!
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2022, 07:17 AM   #69
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 61,381
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
I opened this as a separate thread but it was transferred to this thread.

If your time machine is not a spaceship, i.e. you have a time machine on a planet, you will probably find yourself pressed in the vacuum of space or inside a celestial body.
This may be true of your time machine, but it's not true of mine. If my time machine is not a spaceship, I will probably find myself in pretty much exactly the time and place I intended to travel to, modulo the demands of the story I'm trying to tell.

Time machines being fictional narrative devices, and all.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2022, 07:22 AM   #70
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 61,381
Ryan North wrote a Dinosaur Comics strip about using memory as a form of time travel. I can't find the strip itself (the comic apparently doesn't lend itself to easy search engine indexing by topic), but the theory goes something like this:

Listen to the same song all day, every day, for a month.

Thereafter, any time you hear that song, you will be transported back to that month in your memory.

So I'd like to add music to the list of time travel mechanisms.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2022, 07:24 AM   #71
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 104,539
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
The Time Tunnel (TV show)
The Atavochron (ST:TOS -- All Our Yesterdays)
The Guardian of Forever (ST:TOS - City on the Edge of Forever)
The Tardis (Doctor Who)
A motorcyle (the reference above made me think of this post) (TimeRider)
A DeLorean (Back to the Future)
A train (Back to the Future)
A phone booth (Bill and Ted Adventures)
A coin (Somewhere in Time)
The Time Twister (?) (Harry Potter -- corrected above)
The Time Gem (Marvel Universe )
A Starship using The Slingshot method (STIV:TVH specifically)
A hot tub (It's in the title)
The Omega-13 (Galaxy Quest)


That sounds vaguely familiar -- and I certainly have my Nerd Card.
How about this one? A crowbar. (But it's a literary reference rather than a visual media one).
The pond is how Catweasel travelled to the 20th century.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2022, 07:25 AM   #72
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 104,539
Originally Posted by sp1ke View Post
That sounds like Catweazle to me.
That's the one.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2022, 07:44 AM   #73
jrhowell
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Tampa Bay, Florida
Posts: 770
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It you really wanted to do away with Adolf Hitler then it would be easier to travel back to 9 months before Adolf was born, stop Alois Hitler in the street and ask him for the time. That should be sufficient to change the result of the sperm race.
Or perhaps Alois was jostled to prevent the birth of Ilse Hitler, the inventor of limitless fusion using common household products which quickly led to the extinction of mankind. The Time Wardens are on the lookout for this discovery since it always leads to the extinction of alien races, explaining the Fermi paradox. Adolph is the lesser of two evils.
jrhowell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2022, 09:28 AM   #74
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 22,902
Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger View Post
Reading on airplanes, when the reading lamp is aimed well enough to permit, I'm about 50 pages in to The Lathe of Heaven, by Ursula K Le Guin.

It doesn't seem to have anything to do with time travel, but it has everything to do with changing the world. Not just changing the present or future of the world—hey, we can do that much ourselves—but changing the past.

The title comes from Chapter XXIII of the Chuang Tse (Zhuangzi):
Those whom heaven helps we call the sons of heaven. They do not learn this by learning. They do not work it by working. They do not reason it by using reason. To let understanding stop at what cannot be understood is a high attainment. Those who cannot do it will be destroyed on the lathe of heaven.
As for the mechanism, that quotation offers a vague hint. Here's a more specific hint: Imagine what Nine Princes in Amber would have been like if Philip K Dick had written it.

In another thread, I quoted a paragraph of the book that turns out to have more to do with the topic of this thread than may be apparent.
The Lathe of Heaven is one of the very few written SF works that made it to the screen more or less intact. It is "one of the best of all time".

Enjoy.
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2022, 12:34 PM   #75
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sorth Dakonsin
Posts: 27,076
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The pond is how Catweasel travelled to the 20th century.
Totally unfamiliar with that on this side of the pond.

But it does remind me of...

Taking a nap under a tree.
and
a river boat going over a waterfall (though technically, it might have been another world, and not the past, what with the Sleestak and all)

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Ryan North wrote a Dinosaur Comics strip about using memory as a form of time travel. I can't find the strip itself (the comic apparently doesn't lend itself to easy search engine indexing by topic), but the theory goes something like this:

Listen to the same song all day, every day, for a month.

Thereafter, any time you hear that song, you will be transported back to that month in your memory.

So I'd like to add music to the list of time travel mechanisms.
I'll add that certain remembered scents can send one back. I've even swooned a couple times when catching a whiff that reminded me of having been in another country. (Not always good smells, either).
__________________
Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.

Last edited by alfaniner; 24th August 2022 at 12:36 PM.
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2022, 05:48 PM   #76
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,428
Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
End then to find out that in the end Alois never did father dear little Adolf.
Good point. I didn't think of that. Maybe I should hit on Klara Hitler instead. I wouldn't need to be successful to interfere with the sperm race.

OTOH If I were successful . . . .
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2022, 05:54 PM   #77
Myriad
The Clarity Is Devastating
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
Posts: 19,492
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Good point. I didn't think of that. Maybe I should hit on Klara Hitler instead. I wouldn't need to be successful to interfere with the sperm race.

OTOH If I were successful . . . .

In order to calculate the irony level of the inevitably ironic stable-time-loop outcome, I first have to ask... by any chance are you Jewish?
__________________
A zømbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2022, 09:09 PM   #78
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,428
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
In order to calculate the irony level of the inevitably ironic stable-time-loop outcome, I first have to ask... by any chance are you Jewish?
I am neither Jewish nor anti-Semitic. But children can sometimes be a bitter disappointment to their parents.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2022, 02:32 AM   #79
big-E
Thinker
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 165
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The butterfly effect is summed up by the phrase sensitive dependence on initial conditions which means small changes in a beginning state produce large results over time.

While this is the general definition, as I understand it the signficance of the Butterfly Effect is more than that.


It specifically builds on the 'sensitive dependence on initial conditions' when applying to simulations of large-scale complex systems. These simulations rely on discrete data points to run their algorithms on, and there can and will always be tiny features in the initial conditions that are smaller than the resolution of the data points can possibly cover and thus the simulation cannot account for them and thus cannot accurately predict the system indefinitely into the future.


The Butterfly Effect is not merely to observe that chaotic systems are incredibly complex, and small changes in the starting conditions can result in different end points. This would theoretically still allow perfect prediction assuming the starting conditions could be accurately measured and enough processing power applied.


The consequence of the effect is specifically about modelling and simulations - that long-term simulation of chaotic systems is definitively impossible because it is literally impossible to measure every conceivable starting condition with perfect accuracy - the flap of the butterfly's wing is below the sampling resolution of the weather simulation's grid of data points of air pressure, wind speed etc.


The pop science interpretation of the effect has broadened the generally-understood meaning to the point that it is rarely described in reference to simulations, and is just applied to observations of the real world (assuming that's not a simulation, of course) but it loses any real significance at that point. It's a fairly trivial observation to say that apparently small actions can result in larger consequences later on down the line - rightly, this is more the Snowball Effect - but without any ability to see what would have happened differently should the starting action have been slightly different, it doesn't tell you much. The vast majority of flapping butterfly wings probably have no effect on the weather in general, but it's impossible to tell.



If systems like the weather truly are unpredictable however many supercomputers we throw at the problem, then that is the real meaning of the Butterfly Effect.
big-E is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2022, 05:37 AM   #80
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 104,539
Papilio tempestae
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:49 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.