IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 15th March 2023, 09:40 AM   #41
Lukraak_Sisser
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,883
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I just don't share your boundless trust in governments doing the right thing.
Whereas I don't share your boundless trust that everyone is a decent person that can be trusted not to harm their neighbours.
Lukraak_Sisser is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2023, 12:05 PM   #42
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Dharug & Gundungurra
Posts: 14,227
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
There's a sub-Reddit for survivors of homeschooling. It seems that the main problem is that nothing is being taught, past a certain point. The parents want the kids out of public schools but eventually (or immediately, in some cases) lose ability and interest to teach anything themselves, so the kids just stay home without getting taught anything at all. Then they hit adulthood and have to make up for the lapse. They start the economic race significantly underprepared.
So what did their parents do with all the home-schooling assistance money they were given? 420-blaze it?
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornetsí nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th March 2023, 12:41 PM   #43
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 57,771
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Where do I demonstrate boundless trust in governments doing the right thing?
I just think outlawing any speech,however offesnive, is a horrible, horrible, precedent.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th March 2023, 02:59 PM   #44
shemp
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
 
shemp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Out back preparing the bunker for the next Civil War
Posts: 53,808
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I just think outlawing any speech,however offesnive, is a horrible, horrible, precedent.
I shall go outside and scream racial slurs at my Indian neighbors, and tell them you said it was OK.
__________________
"Yes, I'll be around for many more centuries. You, meanwhile, will have long ago been turned into value dog food, despite your express wishes to the contrary." -- JihadJane
shemp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th March 2023, 04:41 PM   #45
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 29,387
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
I shall go outside and scream racial slurs at my Indian neighbors, and tell them you said it was OK.
No problem. They probably don't speak English anyway!

Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th March 2023, 11:06 PM   #46
Lukraak_Sisser
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,883
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I just think outlawing any speech,however offesnive, is a horrible, horrible, precedent.
That type of thought allowed the fascists in Europe in the 1920's to 'just tell people what they thought' since after all 'it was just using free speech' and laid the groundwork for people to stay silent during the holocaust as they'd had 20 years of newspapers telling them Jews were untermensch.

IMO that set a worse precedent.
Lukraak_Sisser is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th March 2023, 11:11 PM   #47
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Dharug & Gundungurra
Posts: 14,227
Is there some confusion between "allowing free speech" and "letting vile, repugnant hate-speech go completely unanswered and uncontested"?
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornetsí nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th March 2023, 07:14 AM   #48
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 34,262
The free speech issue seems a good reason to encourage public schooling and discourage home schooling by making it at least a less attractive option. We can't after all really control what people do or think or say most of the time, and it's obvious enough that we can't prevent the scummiest of scum from arising and spewing their scummy ideas. But we can at least try to insure that their kids find themselves in an environment that is at least a little bit diverse, a little bit less scummy, and not dedicated to the specific purpose of propagating scum, rather than passing legislation that makes it easier to raise them in a scummy cocoon and get paid for it. Of course it would help if fewer of our legislators were scum themselves.

Not that I have a problem with scum or anything. But I must say as I get older, I find myself drifting away from the old "I hope I live to see the day" into "at least I won't live to see the day."
__________________
Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (MoliŤre)

A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)
bruto is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2023, 02:31 AM   #49
Gulliver Foyle
Graduate Poster
 
Gulliver Foyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Cork baaaiii
Posts: 1,296
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I just think outlawing any speech,however offesnive, is a horrible, horrible, precedent.
Certain types of speech are illegal in Ireland, for instance Trump's speech on January 6th would have been grounds for charges under incitement to hatred laws, and Ireland is a better society than the US, partly as a result.
Gulliver Foyle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2023, 02:40 AM   #50
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 36,371
Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
Certain types of speech are illegal in Ireland, for instance Trump's speech on January 6th would have been grounds for charges under incitement to hatred laws, and Ireland is a better society than the US, partly as a result.
You may think that, I might agree but the US seems different in that free speech absolutism is very strong. In the case of "your right to x stops at my right to y", in the US your right to free speech carries much more weight than elsewhere.

People in the US look at European constraints on free speech with horror and think that we've given up too much for too little.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2023, 03:30 AM   #51
Gulliver Foyle
Graduate Poster
 
Gulliver Foyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Cork baaaiii
Posts: 1,296
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
You may think that, I might agree but the US seems different in that free speech absolutism is very strong. In the case of "your right to x stops at my right to y", in the US your right to free speech carries much more weight than elsewhere.

People in the US look at European constraints on free speech with horror and think that we've given up too much for too little.
We have proper free speechbin Europe, a large part because we've seen the horrors of not enforcing laws against criminal speech. The US is about to see what happens in a free speech absolutist society with the republicans busy recreating the NSDAP.
Gulliver Foyle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2023, 04:18 AM   #52
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 36,371
Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
We have proper free speechbin Europe, a large part because we've seen the horrors of not enforcing laws against criminal speech. The US is about to see what happens in a free speech absolutist society with the republicans busy recreating the NSDAP.
You say that like there isn't a significant minority of people (and likely a majority of Republicans) who wouldn't have a significant problem with this so long as their own lives and circumstances aren't inconvenienced too much.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2023, 04:26 AM   #53
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 108,117
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
You may think that, I might agree but the US seems different in that free speech absolutism is very strong. In the case of "your right to x stops at my right to y", in the US your right to free speech carries much more weight than elsewhere.

People in the US look at European constraints on free speech with horror and think that we've given up too much for too little.
What most USA folk here argue about free speech is that someone should be allowed to promote criminal activities, for example the murdering of fellow citizens, the theft of private property and so on.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2023, 05:04 AM   #54
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 43,036
We're talking about Nazis so I assume it's now a topic about free speech.

Find yourself a woman who loves you as much as Nazi apologists love free speech.
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2023, 05:33 AM   #55
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 108,117
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We're talking about Nazis so I assume it's now a topic about free speech.

Find yourself a woman who loves you as much as Nazi apologists love free speech.
Don't you know society will collapse into authoritarian communism if people who want to murder millions of their fellow citizens aren't allowed to incite people to murder their fellow citizens in their millions?

Who'd want to live in a society where you can't incite for the murder of your fellow citizens?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2023, 06:04 AM   #56
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Dharug & Gundungurra
Posts: 14,227
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Don't you know society will collapse into authoritarian communism if people who want to murder millions of their fellow citizens aren't allowed to incite people to murder their fellow citizens in their millions?

Who'd want to live in a society where you can't incite for the murder of your fellow citizens?
And yet if you incite the murder of a select few fellow US citizens, you can end up under arrest and in jail VERY quickly, there to stay for a LONG time.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornetsí nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2023, 06:50 AM   #57
Myriad
The Clarity Is Devastating
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
Posts: 19,988
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
And yet if you incite the murder of a select few fellow US citizens, you can end up under arrest and in jail VERY quickly, there to stay for a LONG time.

There is an aspect of unequal treatment involved there, but it also has a lot to do with the specificity of a threat.

Except where a dress code forbids t-shirts regardless of content, I could wear a "Thanos Was Right" t-shirt anywhere, even in Disney World. Heck, I could probably buy one in Disney World.
__________________
A zÝmbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2023, 07:24 AM   #58
Suddenly
No Punting
 
Suddenly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not In Follansbee
Posts: 5,457
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Is there some confusion between "allowing free speech" and "letting vile, repugnant hate-speech go completely unanswered and uncontested"?
Is blasphemy vile, repugnant hate speech? There are still laws against that on the books in a lot of US states. I don't think it is, but I'm not an easily offended cultural Christian who uses religion as a way to justify white supremacy.

Public ostracism is the only real defense against this sort of speech. Laws are a sort of sideshow to that.

The problem is that an awful lot of liberal minded people in the US forget that part requires more than shaking one's head sadly. If you are going to say that nazis have a right to advocate genocide, you need to be out there advocating shutting these people out of society and meeting their speech and physical threats of force with overwhelming rhetorical and physical shows of force. This is where free speech is not formal debate.


Nazis should be treated as harshly as those advocating for sex with children. If the proud boys were committing and threatening violence in the cause of pedophilia I'd imagine or at least hope that an antifa type response would be viewed differently. I'd hope there would be way less people willing to at humor "both sides" arguments

Last edited by Suddenly; 20th March 2023 at 07:26 AM.
Suddenly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2023, 05:35 PM   #59
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Dharug & Gundungurra
Posts: 14,227
Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Is blasphemy vile, repugnant hate speech? There are still laws against that on the books in a lot of US states. I don't think it is, but I'm not an easily offended cultural Christian who uses religion as a way to justify white supremacy.
As opposed to the fascist right who do. Cynically so, in fact.

Quote:
Public ostracism is the only real defense against this sort of speech. Laws are a sort of sideshow to that.
Uh, no. Hate speech is, in fact, illegal in many countries. No sideshow about it.

Quote:
The problem is that an awful lot of liberal minded people in the US forget that part requires more than shaking one's head sadly. If you are going to say that nazis have a right to advocate genocide, you need to be out there advocating shutting these people out of society and meeting their speech and physical threats of force with overwhelming rhetorical and physical shows of force. This is where free speech is not formal debate.
...have you not been watching the news??


Quote:
Nazis should be treated as harshly as those advocating for sex with children. If the proud boys were committing and threatening violence in the cause of pedophilia I'd imagine or at least hope that an antifa type response would be viewed differently. I'd hope there would be way less people willing to at humor "both sides" arguments
Not ANTIFA, but normal, sensible, MOR type response. Plenty of caring conservatives went to actual war and died fighting to bring down Nazi/proudboy values and regime. They were the "original" anti-fascists.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornetsí nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st March 2023, 06:55 AM   #60
Suddenly
No Punting
 
Suddenly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not In Follansbee
Posts: 5,457
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Uh, no. Hate speech is, in fact, illegal in many countries. No sideshow about it.
It is a sideshow. If a critical mass of people have and express beliefs consistent with illegal hate speech those laws are worthless. They can be helpful in maybe avoiding reaching that critical mass, but that's about it. In the culture of the US they'd likely do more harm than good.

Quote:

Plenty of caring conservatives went to actual war and died fighting to bring down Nazi/proudboy values and regime. They were the "original" anti-fascists.

By shooting nazis. Which seems a bit much at this juncture. Sticking with the showing up at fascist rallies to physically protect counterprotesters and maybe punch someone in the face here or there strikes me as more proportionate, but maybe I'm soft.
Suddenly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st March 2023, 04:06 PM   #61
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Dharug & Gundungurra
Posts: 14,227
Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
It is a sideshow. If a critical mass of people have and express beliefs consistent with illegal hate speech those laws are worthless. They can be helpful in maybe avoiding reaching that critical mass, but that's about it. In the culture of the US they'd likely do more harm than good.
They are worthless if not enforced.




Quote:
By shooting nazis. Which seems a bit much at this juncture. Sticking with the showing up at fascist rallies to physically protect counterprotesters and maybe punch someone in the face here or there strikes me as more proportionate, but maybe I'm soft.
Not really. America is a gun-crazed and gun-soaked country. 60,000 citizens die by the gun every year and that seems to be perfectly acceptable (well...nobody seems to want to do anything about it). A couple of dozen more each year should be just fine. So if these extras are a bunch of Nazis, that should be A-OK, I imagine.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornetsí nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2023, 12:20 PM   #62
Suddenly
No Punting
 
Suddenly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not In Follansbee
Posts: 5,457
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
They are worthless if not enforced.

They won't be enforceable at that point. If you find yourself in a country full of fascists calling the cops isn't going to stop it.
Suddenly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2023, 01:06 PM   #63
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Dharug & Gundungurra
Posts: 14,227
Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
They won't be enforceable at that point. If you find yourself in a country full of fascists calling the cops isn't going to stop it.
Well, there's your problem right there.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornetsí nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2023, 03:11 AM   #64
Gulliver Foyle
Graduate Poster
 
Gulliver Foyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Cork baaaiii
Posts: 1,296
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
You say that like there isn't a significant minority of people (and likely a majority of Republicans) who wouldn't have a significant problem with this so long as their own lives and circumstances aren't inconvenienced too much.
They won't have a problem right up until the Party comes to take them away. "When they come for me, who will be left to speak out?" is what they should be thinking.
Gulliver Foyle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2023, 07:37 AM   #65
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 34,262
Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
They won't have a problem right up until the Party comes to take them away. "When they come for me, who will be left to speak out?" is what they should be thinking.
Thinking is the bottleneck here. People who wrap oppression in the flag of liberty could wear that statement on a T-shirt and still find out too late what it means.
__________________
Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (MoliŤre)

A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)
bruto is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2023, 03:20 PM   #66
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 57,771
The main problem with outlawing hate speech is who decides what is hate speech?
A Right US Government could decide that any attack on relgion is "Hate Speech",
Yes, free speech absoultisim is strong in the US, and, as one Brit who posts here pointed out, we do feel in Europe as far as free speech goes, they have given up too much for too little.
And, as always, it is the old question of Who Will Watch The Watchers?
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2023, 03:23 PM   #67
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 57,771
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What most USA folk here argue about free speech is that someone should be allowed to promote criminal activities, for example the murdering of fellow citizens, the theft of private property and so on.
It's a question of specificity. Under US law, you have to show that speech actually inspried a specific criminal action to be prosecutable.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2023, 03:26 PM   #68
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 57,771
Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
They won't have a problem right up until the Party comes to take them away. "When they come for me, who will be left to speak out?" is what they should be thinking.
And who decides what is hate speech and what is not?
I could easily make a case that Marxist parties should be banned given the history of Marxist regimes in other coutnries, that Marxism is a dangerous philisophy that should be banned.
The left can be just a power hungry as the right.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2023, 05:47 PM   #69
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 29,387
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And who decides what is hate speech and what is not?
I could easily make a case that Marxist parties should be banned given the history of Marxist regimes in other coutnries, that Marxism is a dangerous philisophy that should be banned.
The left can be just a power hungry as the right.
Extremes are closer to each other than we like to admit. Horseshoe.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2023, 06:02 PM   #70
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 57,771
And whenever they come to take away your individual liberty, they always have wondeful sounding reasons. And "defending Freedom" is as wonderful sounding as it gets.
Still, I am really having problems with the idea that surpressing freedom of speech..no matter how offensive is somehow "defending freedom".
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2023, 08:31 PM   #71
Pixel42
SchrŲdinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 15,311
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It's a question of specificity. Under US law, you have to show that speech actually inspried a specific criminal action to be prosecutable.
And yet Trump is still repeating the same speech two years later.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

Last edited by Pixel42; 23rd March 2023 at 10:03 PM.
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2023, 06:38 PM   #72
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 29,387
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
And yet Trump is still repeating the same speech two years later.
Some people never learn even while under investigation likely being charged with that crime.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2023, 12:44 AM   #73
Gulliver Foyle
Graduate Poster
 
Gulliver Foyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Cork baaaiii
Posts: 1,296
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The main problem with outlawing hate speech is who decides what is hate speech?
A Right US Government could decide that any attack on relgion is "Hate Speech",
Yes, free speech absoultisim is strong in the US, and, as one Brit who posts here pointed out, we do feel in Europe as far as free speech goes, they have given up too much for too little.
And, as always, it is the old question of Who Will Watch The Watchers?
What have we given up in Europe, pray tell?
Gulliver Foyle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2023, 04:08 AM   #74
Parsman
Muse
 
Parsman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bonnie Scotland
Posts: 916
Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
What have we given up in Europe, pray tell?
This. Believing that the USA is some bastion of free speech which makes us in Europe ashamed is just another example of American exceptionalism. Being pretty much able to say anything you like without any sanction though seems to lead to idiocracy rather than democracy, a trend which is amplified in our technological age.
__________________
I was not; I have been; I am not; I am content - Epicurus

When you're dead you don't know that you're dead, all the pain is felt by others....................the same thing happens when you're stupid.
Parsman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2023, 11:48 PM   #75
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 36,371
Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
What have we given up in Europe, pray tell?
We're a cowed bunch who can only do and say whet our authoritarian governments allow us to - which is why France is so quiet right now despite the pension age being raised.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:48 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.