Is the "Woke mob" destroying college education? - Page 20

wareyin · Today, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

By your logic China and North Korea are conservative.

The Soviet Union was conservative.

East Germany and the other Soviet Bloc countries were conservative.

Cuba is conservative.

Huh.

This explains quite a lot about how you think your political views make you not conservative.

Darat · Today, 07:40 AM

I'm with Hercules56 on this one - they were or are dictatorships, not an expression of conservative ideology in the governance of a nation, these dictatorships don't give a damn about anything apart from what sustains the dictatorship.

Suddenly · Today, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I'm with Hercules56 on this one - they were or are dictatorships, not an expression of conservative ideology in the governance of a nation, these dictatorships don't give a damn about anything apart from what sustains the dictatorship.

That is a conservative ideology w/r/t civil liberties and the rights of the individual.

Hercules56 · Today, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by Suddenly

That is a conservative ideology w/r/t civil liberties and the rights of the individual.

Strict enforcement of the rules and law and a strong police state, is not inherently right-wing or left-wing. It's authoritarian, which can be employed by both conservative and liberal/progressive societies. Hence the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were both authoritarian though one was very left wing and the other was very right wing.

Hercules56 · Today, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by Suddenly

As to civil liberties? Absolutely.

100%

Holy crap right on point.

Hmmm, do you have any sources for any really smart minds out there that consider the police state to be a purely conservative perspective?

I would love to see some.

wareyin · Today, 08:35 AM

I think much of the confusion lies in thinking of this with the "traditional" (har de har) definition of conservative vs the modern day American "conservative" party. Modern day American conservatism is very much authoritarian, police state, strict enforcement of the rules and law type stuff that Hercules56 advocates for.

Suddenly · Today, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Strict enforcement of the rules and law and a strong police state, is not inherently right-wing or left-wing. It's authoritarian, which can be employed by both conservative and liberal/progressive societies. Hence the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were both authoritarian though one was very left wing and the other was very right wing.

We are talking civil liberties here, not economic systems.

Hercules56 · Today, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by Suddenly

We are talking civil liberties here, not economic systems.

I've never seen the Soviet Union and other socialist societies as being labeled as anything but left-wing and not conservative.

Suddenly · Today, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by wareyin

I think much of the confusion lies in thinking of this with the "traditional" (har de har) definition of conservative vs the modern day American "conservative" party. Modern day American conservatism is very much authoritarian, police state, strict enforcement of the rules and law type stuff that Hercules56 advocates for.

There was within the USSR factions described as hard line conservatives, and that faction was almost always in control.

Which were the "very much authoritarian, police state, strict enforcement of the rules and law type stuff that Hercules56 advocates for."

Just with different economic ideas.

catsmate · Today, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

Yeah. Apparently, the poster is into right-wing ourtrage porn.

And evasion, misdirection and strawmanning.

catsmate · Today, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I'm with Hercules56 on this one - they were or are dictatorships, not an expression of conservative ideology in the governance of a nation, these dictatorships don't give a damn about anything apart from what sustains the dictatorship.

The right/left divide doesn't work well. Those dictatorships are authoritarian, like the current USAian Republican party.

Hercules56 · Today, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by Suddenly

There was within the USSR factions described as hard line conservatives, and that faction was almost always in control.

Which were the "very much authoritarian, police state, strict enforcement of the rules and law type stuff that Hercules56 advocates for."

Just with different economic ideas.

Again I disagree that the police state is inherently conservative. China and North Korea and Cuba have police States but nobody in their right mind would call them conservative.

I believe the 20th century has shown very clearly that the police state transcends right/left politics.

Lukraak_Sisser · Today, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Again I disagree that the police state is inherently conservative. China and North Korea and Cuba have police States but nobody in their right mind would call them conservative.

I believe the 20th century has shown very clearly that the police state transcends right/left politics.

Why not?
All three forbid all the social things the conservative party in the US would like to forbid as well.
All three seek to control education so the current party remains in power, something the GOP is also pushing.
All three seek to maintain the status quo and repress anything that would change the way people think, which is pretty much the hallmark of conservatism.

The only difference is the way they handle the economy, although China is pretty much close to what the GOP would want too, all large companies in the hands of the ruling party.

What is not conservative about them?

Suddenly · Today, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

The right/left divide doesn't work well. Those dictatorships are authoritarian, like the current USAian Republican party.

A big part of the reason the left/right distinction doesn't work is that there are so many formulations all deriving from a set of specifics.

The free market, which most modern western conservatives cling to as the bedrock of their belief system was seen as liberal when it stood in opposition to feudalism. Neither is wrong.

Right/Left is not at the core a set of beliefs. It's the nature of the policies pursued in relation to the current political power structure. If they seek to entrench and preserve, then it's conservative. If they seek to change, then liberal.

It's hard to imagine a settled police state doing anything but preserving the present power structure. It's close to definitive. In the immediate aftermath of a revolution then maybe, but not when the pigs start to walk around upright and take the place of the humans they ran off.

Darat · Today, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser

Why not?
All three forbid all the social things the conservative party in the US would like to forbid as well.
All three seek to control education so the current party remains in power, something the GOP is also pushing.
All three seek to maintain the status quo and repress anything that would change the way people think, which is pretty much the hallmark of conservatism.

The only difference is the way they handle the economy, although China is pretty much close to what the GOP would want too, all large companies in the hands of the ruling party.

What is not conservative about them?

I'd approach that from the other direction. The Republican party's actions and policies do not define conservatism, the party is what has moved, so it is now an authoritarian party.

Darat · Today, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by Suddenly

A big part of the reason the left/right distinction doesn't work is that there are so many formulations all deriving from a set of specifics.

The free market, which most modern western conservatives cling to as the bedrock of their belief system was seen as liberal when it stood in opposition to feudalism. Neither is wrong.

Right/Left is not at the core a set of beliefs. It's the nature of the policies pursued in relation to the current political power structure. If they seek to entrench and preserve, then it's conservative. If they seek to change, then liberal.

It's hard to imagine a settled police state doing anything but preserving the present power structure. It's close to definitive. In the immediate aftermath of a revolution then maybe, but not when the pigs start to walk around upright and take the place of the humans they ran off.

Doesn't work currently in the USA, the republican party are the ones wanting change and working on making it happen.

wareyin · Today, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I'd approach that from the other direction. The Republican party's actions and policies do not define conservatism, the party is what has moved, so it is now an authoritarian party.

And yet we're constantly being reminded that to the rest of the world our Republican party is extremely far right.

Darat · Today, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by wareyin

And yet we're constantly being reminded that to the rest of the world our Republican party is extremely far right.

I'd say that was the case until the last 15 years or so, it's now passed through the far right and into straightforward, no shame authoritarianism - that's why Trump could be elected as a republican.

Hercules56 · Today, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I'd say that was the case until the last 15 years or so, it's now passed through the far right and into straightforward, no shame authoritarianism - that's why Trump could be elected as a republican.

Except when it comes to guns and vaccines. On those issues they are Libertarian.

Thermal · Today, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Except when it comes to guns and vaccines. On those issues they are Libertarian.

Pretty sure they champion guns to secure a reliable rabble base, a being anti vax just to be contrary to the left. Basically, just being contrary to the left sums them up neatly. Which really sucks for those of us who want the strong points of each party to one degree or another.

qayak · Today, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by wareyin

And yet we're constantly being reminded that to the rest of the world our Republican party is extremely far right.

To be fair though, Obama's policies were further right than Reagans. It's the only way democrats can get elected in the U.S.

I also think there has been a shift right around the world in the past 25 years. The Republicans went from conservative to extreme conservatism. The Conservative party in Canada is following in their footsteps.

wareyin · Today, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by qayak

To be fair though, Obama's policies were further right than Reagans. It's the only way democrats can get elected in the U.S.

I'll bite. Name 2 Obama policies that were further right than Reagan's.

Originally Posted by qayak

I also think there has been a shift right around the world in the past 25 years. The Republicans went from conservative to extreme conservatism. The Conservative party in Canada is following in their footsteps.

Extreme conservatism being "making a **** ton of changes to the country to implement the authoritarian police state they fantasize over" rather than the textbook "really want to prevent change and keep things as they were"?

ponderingturtle · Today, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by qayak

The point about public schools is that they are held to a different standard in Canada. They are an agent of the government and so are obligated to follow the Charter of Rights.

So like the CBC they are also obligated to platform hate speech.

lomiller · Today, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Cracking down on disorderly conduct, disruption and anarchy= Conservative??

Authoritarianism and dictatorships generally fall on the conservative side of the political spectrum, at least after they are in power.

The essence of conservatism is traditionalists who want to maintain the status quo, while liberals are reformers who want to change the status quo. Dictatorships rarely want to upend the status quo because that would risk upending their rule. Even dictators who started out as reformers rapidly become tied to the status quo once they are in power.

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Strict enforcement of the rules and law and a strong police state, is not inherently right-wing or left-wing.

Wanting the prop up the current status quo with police and laws is very much a conservative thing.

lomiller · Today, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Originally Posted by Suddenly

Right/Left is not at the core a set of beliefs. It's the nature of the policies pursued in relation to the current political power structure. If they seek to entrench and preserve, then it's conservative. If they seek to change, then liberal.

Doesn't work currently in the USA, the republican party are the ones wanting change and working on making it happen.

Conservatives are traditionalists, trying to turn back the clock to a real or imagined past is still conservative in nature even if it involves changing the current status quo.

Today, 07:40 AM	#762
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,117	I'm with Hercules56 on this one - they were or are dictatorships, not an expression of conservative ideology in the governance of a nation, these dictatorships don't give a damn about anything apart from what sustains the dictatorship.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

Today, 08:25 AM	#764
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,361	Originally Posted by Suddenly That is a conservative ideology w/r/t civil liberties and the rights of the individual. Strict enforcement of the rules and law and a strong police state, is not inherently right-wing or left-wing. It's authoritarian, which can be employed by both conservative and liberal/progressive societies. Hence the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were both authoritarian though one was very left wing and the other was very right wing.
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,361	Last edited by Hercules56; Today at 08:27 AM.

Today, 08:30 AM	#765
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,361	Originally Posted by Suddenly As to civil liberties? Absolutely. 100% Holy crap right on point. Hmmm, do you have any sources for any really smart minds out there that consider the police state to be a purely conservative perspective? I would love to see some.
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,361

Today, 08:43 AM	#768
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,361	Originally Posted by Suddenly We are talking civil liberties here, not economic systems. I've never seen the Soviet Union and other socialist societies as being labeled as anything but left-wing and not conservative.
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,361

Today, 08:57 AM	#770
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,111	Originally Posted by pgwenthold Yeah. Apparently, the poster is into right-wing ourtrage porn. And evasion, misdirection and strawmanning.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

Today, 07:27 AM	#761
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,444	Originally Posted by Hercules56 By your logic China and North Korea are conservative. The Soviet Union was conservative. East Germany and the other Soviet Bloc countries were conservative. Cuba is conservative. Huh. This explains quite a lot about how you think your political views make you not conservative.

Today, 07:51 AM	#763
Suddenly No Punting Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Not In Follansbee Posts: 5,457	Originally Posted by Darat I'm with Hercules56 on this one - they were or are dictatorships, not an expression of conservative ideology in the governance of a nation, these dictatorships don't give a damn about anything apart from what sustains the dictatorship. That is a conservative ideology w/r/t civil liberties and the rights of the individual.

Today, 08:35 AM	#766
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,444	I think much of the confusion lies in thinking of this with the "traditional" (har de har) definition of conservative vs the modern day American "conservative" party. Modern day American conservatism is very much authoritarian, police state, strict enforcement of the rules and law type stuff that Hercules56 advocates for.

Today, 08:37 AM	#767
Suddenly No Punting Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Not In Follansbee Posts: 5,457	Originally Posted by Hercules56 Strict enforcement of the rules and law and a strong police state, is not inherently right-wing or left-wing. It's authoritarian, which can be employed by both conservative and liberal/progressive societies. Hence the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were both authoritarian though one was very left wing and the other was very right wing. We are talking civil liberties here, not economic systems.

Today, 08:51 AM	#769
Suddenly No Punting Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Not In Follansbee Posts: 5,457	Originally Posted by wareyin I think much of the confusion lies in thinking of this with the "traditional" (har de har) definition of conservative vs the modern day American "conservative" party. Modern day American conservatism is very much authoritarian, police state, strict enforcement of the rules and law type stuff that Hercules56 advocates for. There was within the USSR factions described as hard line conservatives, and that faction was almost always in control. Which were the "very much authoritarian, police state, strict enforcement of the rules and law type stuff that Hercules56 advocates for." Just with different economic ideas.

Today, 08:59 AM	#771
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,111	Originally Posted by Darat I'm with Hercules56 on this one - they were or are dictatorships, not an expression of conservative ideology in the governance of a nation, these dictatorships don't give a damn about anything apart from what sustains the dictatorship. The right/left divide doesn't work well. Those dictatorships are authoritarian, like the current USAian Republican party.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

Today, 08:59 AM	#772
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,361	Originally Posted by Suddenly There was within the USSR factions described as hard line conservatives, and that faction was almost always in control. Which were the "very much authoritarian, police state, strict enforcement of the rules and law type stuff that Hercules56 advocates for." Just with different economic ideas. Again I disagree that the police state is inherently conservative. China and North Korea and Cuba have police States but nobody in their right mind would call them conservative. I believe the 20th century has shown very clearly that the police state transcends right/left politics.
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,361	Last edited by Hercules56; Today at 09:00 AM.

Today, 09:34 AM	#773
Lukraak_Sisser Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 4,883	Originally Posted by Hercules56 Again I disagree that the police state is inherently conservative. China and North Korea and Cuba have police States but nobody in their right mind would call them conservative. I believe the 20th century has shown very clearly that the police state transcends right/left politics. Why not? All three forbid all the social things the conservative party in the US would like to forbid as well. All three seek to control education so the current party remains in power, something the GOP is also pushing. All three seek to maintain the status quo and repress anything that would change the way people think, which is pretty much the hallmark of conservatism. The only difference is the way they handle the economy, although China is pretty much close to what the GOP would want too, all large companies in the hands of the ruling party. What is not conservative about them?

Today, 09:38 AM	#774
Suddenly No Punting Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Not In Follansbee Posts: 5,457	Originally Posted by catsmate The right/left divide doesn't work well. Those dictatorships are authoritarian, like the current USAian Republican party. A big part of the reason the left/right distinction doesn't work is that there are so many formulations all deriving from a set of specifics. The free market, which most modern western conservatives cling to as the bedrock of their belief system was seen as liberal when it stood in opposition to feudalism. Neither is wrong. Right/Left is not at the core a set of beliefs. It's the nature of the policies pursued in relation to the current political power structure. If they seek to entrench and preserve, then it's conservative. If they seek to change, then liberal. It's hard to imagine a settled police state doing anything but preserving the present power structure. It's close to definitive. In the immediate aftermath of a revolution then maybe, but not when the pigs start to walk around upright and take the place of the humans they ran off.

Today, 09:38 AM	#775
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,117	Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser Why not? All three forbid all the social things the conservative party in the US would like to forbid as well. All three seek to control education so the current party remains in power, something the GOP is also pushing. All three seek to maintain the status quo and repress anything that would change the way people think, which is pretty much the hallmark of conservatism. The only difference is the way they handle the economy, although China is pretty much close to what the GOP would want too, all large companies in the hands of the ruling party. What is not conservative about them? I'd approach that from the other direction. The Republican party's actions and policies do not define conservatism, the party is what has moved, so it is now an authoritarian party.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

Today, 09:40 AM	#776
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,117	Originally Posted by Suddenly A big part of the reason the left/right distinction doesn't work is that there are so many formulations all deriving from a set of specifics. The free market, which most modern western conservatives cling to as the bedrock of their belief system was seen as liberal when it stood in opposition to feudalism. Neither is wrong. Right/Left is not at the core a set of beliefs. It's the nature of the policies pursued in relation to the current political power structure. If they seek to entrench and preserve, then it's conservative. If they seek to change, then liberal. It's hard to imagine a settled police state doing anything but preserving the present power structure. It's close to definitive. In the immediate aftermath of a revolution then maybe, but not when the pigs start to walk around upright and take the place of the humans they ran off. Doesn't work currently in the USA, the republican party are the ones wanting change and working on making it happen.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

Today, 09:56 AM	#777
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,444	Originally Posted by Darat I'd approach that from the other direction. The Republican party's actions and policies do not define conservatism, the party is what has moved, so it is now an authoritarian party. And yet we're constantly being reminded that to the rest of the world our Republican party is extremely far right.

Today, 10:00 AM	#778
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,117	Originally Posted by wareyin And yet we're constantly being reminded that to the rest of the world our Republican party is extremely far right. I'd say that was the case until the last 15 years or so, it's now passed through the far right and into straightforward, no shame authoritarianism - that's why Trump could be elected as a republican.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

Today, 10:02 AM	#779
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,361	Originally Posted by Darat I'd say that was the case until the last 15 years or so, it's now passed through the far right and into straightforward, no shame authoritarianism - that's why Trump could be elected as a republican. Except when it comes to guns and vaccines. On those issues they are Libertarian.
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,361

Today, 10:08 AM	#780
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 21,896	Originally Posted by Hercules56 Except when it comes to guns and vaccines. On those issues they are Libertarian. Pretty sure they champion guns to secure a reliable rabble base, a being anti vax just to be contrary to the left. Basically, just being contrary to the left sums them up neatly. Which really sucks for those of us who want the strong points of each party to one degree or another.
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

Today, 12:17 PM	#781
qayak Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,833	Originally Posted by wareyin And yet we're constantly being reminded that to the rest of the world our Republican party is extremely far right. To be fair though, Obama's policies were further right than Reagans. It's the only way democrats can get elected in the U.S. I also think there has been a shift right around the world in the past 25 years. The Republicans went from conservative to extreme conservatism. The Conservative party in Canada is following in their footsteps.
	__________________ "How long you live, how high you fly The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry And all you touch, and all you see Is all your life will ever be."

Today, 12:36 PM	#782
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,444	Originally Posted by qayak To be fair though, Obama's policies were further right than Reagans. It's the only way democrats can get elected in the U.S. I'll bite. Name 2 Obama policies that were further right than Reagan's. Originally Posted by qayak I also think there has been a shift right around the world in the past 25 years. The Republicans went from conservative to extreme conservatism. The Conservative party in Canada is following in their footsteps. Extreme conservatism being "making a **** ton of changes to the country to implement the authoritarian police state they fantasize over" rather than the textbook "really want to prevent change and keep things as they were"?

Today, 01:17 PM	#783
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,956	Originally Posted by qayak The point about public schools is that they are held to a different standard in Canada. They are an agent of the government and so are obligated to follow the Charter of Rights. So like the CBC they are also obligated to platform hate speech.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

Today, 02:46 PM	#784
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 12,799	Originally Posted by Hercules56 Cracking down on disorderly conduct, disruption and anarchy= Conservative?? Authoritarianism and dictatorships generally fall on the conservative side of the political spectrum, at least after they are in power. The essence of conservatism is traditionalists who want to maintain the status quo, while liberals are reformers who want to change the status quo. Dictatorships rarely want to upend the status quo because that would risk upending their rule. Even dictators who started out as reformers rapidly become tied to the status quo once they are in power. Originally Posted by Hercules56 Strict enforcement of the rules and law and a strong police state, is not inherently right-wing or left-wing. Wanting the prop up the current status quo with police and laws is very much a conservative thing.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

Today, 02:58 PM	#785
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 12,799	Originally Posted by Darat Originally Posted by Suddenly Right/Left is not at the core a set of beliefs. It's the nature of the policies pursued in relation to the current political power structure. If they seek to entrench and preserve, then it's conservative. If they seek to change, then liberal. Doesn't work currently in the USA, the republican party are the ones wanting change and working on making it happen. Conservatives are traditionalists, trying to turn back the clock to a real or imagined past is still conservative in nature even if it involves changing the current status quo.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"