Merged: Criminal Charges Against Trump/Trump indicted

[The Atheist]

Which charge will be made first, and when?

I have no idea which will be the first one, but I'm picking no charges will be laid until about March 2021.

[dirtywick]

I’d assume they’ll just let SDNY handle it and stay completely hands off federally.

[JoeMorgue]

I wonder if an impeachment counts as trial for Double Jeopardy purposes.

[Segnosaur]

Originally Posted by dirtywick

I’d assume they’ll just let SDNY handle it and stay completely hands off federally.

Technically the SDNY is a federal court.

Do you mean that they should let the federal district court handle it (with no input from the DoJ in Washington) or do you mean that they should just charge trump with state and local crimes?

[dirtywick]

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Technically the SDNY is a federal court.

Do you mean that they should let the federal district court handle it (with no input from the DoJ in Washington) or do you mean that they should just charge trump with state and local crimes?

I meant any charges will be at the state level. Biden isn’t going to sic the DOJ on him and would cooperate with any requests only to the extent required.

The last thing Biden will want to do is appear to be getting some kind of revenge.

[JoeMorgue]

Can like just a regular citizen sue the President? Or a private citizen who once was President?

[Segnosaur]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I wonder if an impeachment counts as trial for Double Jeopardy purposes.

I doubt it. The impeachment did not cause any risk of jail time or other such punishment for Trump. Plus, the articles of impeachment do not always directly correspond to criminal code violations.

And even if they did, there are probably still plenty of other charges that Trump could be charged with that weren't related to the impeachment.

[Segnosaur]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Can like just a regular citizen sue the President? Or a private citizen who once was President?

Probably not.

I think any sort of lawsuit would be thrown out by the courts because the plaintiff wouldn't have standing to sue.

[Segnosaur]

Originally Posted by dirtywick

I meant any charges will be at the state level. Biden isn’t going to sic the DOJ on him and would cooperate with any requests only to the extent required.

The last thing Biden will want to do is appear to be getting some kind of revenge.

I agree that Biden would want to avoid the appearance of 'revenge'.

But, there are 2 issues here:

- The SDNY is currently investigating Stubby McBonespurs on federal crimes. (Remember, Barr tried to interfere by replacing the lawyer in charge with a Trump toady, but failed to do so.) If Biden really wanted to avoid having Trump up on federal charges, he too would have to interfere with the SDNY. But prosecutors should be independent.

- At least some of Trump's crimes are federal in nature. If the state doesn't nail him, Trump would get away scot free with all sorts of crimes

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by dirtywick

I’d assume they’ll just let SDNY handle it and stay completely hands off federally.

The SDNY is Federal. Maybe you meant the Manhattan DA.

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Technically the SDNY is a federal court.

Do you mean that they should let the federal district court handle it (with no input from the DoJ in Washington) or do you mean that they should just charge trump with state and local crimes?

Not just technically.

I do know this. Trump's taxes etc will become public.

[dirtywick]

Yeah looks like I misunderstood the role SDNY plays. The reporting on it led me to believe they were leveling state level charges on him that he couldn’t insulate himself from.

Regardless of that I expect that the Biden admin’s interest and involvement in any Trump criminal charges will be as minimal as possible.

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

I doubt it. The impeachment did not cause any risk of jail time or other such punishment for Trump. Plus, the articles of impeachment do not always directly correspond to criminal code violations.

And even if they did, there are probably still plenty of other charges that Trump could be charged with that weren't related to the impeachment.

Precisely. Impeachment isn't a criminal procedure. The only way it could benefit Trump although I don't think it does in any way would be if he said something in a deposition so it couldn't be used against him. But he wasn't deposed. And i doubt his behavior in regards to Ukraine was criminal. Abominable and impeachable, but not criminal.

I do believe there are lies in his written response to Congress. Someone not the President would have that referred to the DOJ which happened to Don Jr.

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by dirtywick

Yeah looks like I misunderstood the role SDNY plays. The reporting on it led me to believe they were leveling state level charges on him that he couldn’t insulate himself from.

Regardless of that I expect that the Biden admin’s interest and involvement in any Trump criminal charges will be as minimal as possible.

Yep. But my guess is that the investigations into Trump won't just die either. They are going to get his financials. He's probably going to have to submit to a DNA swab because of the defamation lawsuit involving sexual assault.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Can like just a regular citizen sue the President? Or a private citizen who once was President?

Depends on the grounds. You can't sue the President for his official acts. But you can sue him for his personal actions, particularly before he became President. You might recall that more than one woman is suing him now for his (alleged) behavior before he became President. Paula Jones sued Clinton while he was President.

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Probably not.

I think any sort of lawsuit would be thrown out by the courts because the plaintiff wouldn't have standing to sue.

Some private citizens probably have standing to sue. Like, say, everyone that was teargassed and beaten so Trump could have his bible-waving photoshoot. And anyone who was the target of harassment or violence that Trump encouraged.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

I agree that Biden would want to avoid the appearance of 'revenge'.
....

But Biden isn't going to pretend nothing happened either. His best strategy would be to appoint an attorney general respected for independence and probity, and turn it all over to him. The Mueller report identified 10 instances where Trump may have engaged in obstruction of justice; that would be a good place to start. Trump has been strongly suspected of laundering money for Russian gangsters for decades; that's something to look at. And when the House again demands Trump's tax returns, I doubt that the Biden officials will deny the request.

[eerok]

I'd expect more lawsuits than criminal indictments against Trump. When it comes to the IRS, though, it's hard to say. He'll certainly have to pay some fines for his obvious misadventures, but they might not indict him for tax fraud due to his having been president and all.

That being said, Trump might not survive all the lawsuits coming his way.

[dirtywick]

Originally Posted by Bob001

But Biden isn't going to pretend nothing happened either. His best strategy would be to appoint an attorney general respected for independence and probity, and turn it all over to him. The Mueller report identified 10 instances where Trump may have engaged in obstruction of justice; that would be a good place to start. Trump has been strongly suspected of laundering money for Russian gangsters for decades; that's something to look at. And when the House again demands Trump's tax returns, I doubt that the Biden officials will deny the request.

I think this is all things Biden will avoid doing. Letting the ongoing financial investigations play out is a better call for him. They can result in prison time and dismantling of the Trump empire without Biden having to be accused of any wrong doing by virtue of not being involved since these were initiated before he became president.

-edit-

Just think about it, they tried to impeach him and it failed. Redoing impeachment against a former political opponent is such a bad look, for Biden and the House.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by dirtywick

I think this is all things Biden will avoid doing. Letting the ongoing financial investigations play out is a better call for him. They can result in prison time and dismantling of the Trump empire without Biden having to be accused of any wrong doing by virtue of not being involved since these were initiated before he became president.

-edit-

Just think about it, they tried to impeach him and it failed. Redoing impeachment against a former political opponent is such a bad look, for Biden and the House.

He was impeached on specific narrow grounds. That doesn't have anything to do with anything else he did. And impeachment is just a process to remove someone from office. It particularly didn't have anything to do with criminal prosecution. Some smart people think his gross, willful negligence about the pandemic could be criminal.

[eerok]

Originally Posted by dirtywick

I think this is all things Biden will avoid doing. Letting the ongoing financial investigations play out is a better call for him. They can result in prison time and dismantling of the Trump empire without Biden having to be accused of any wrong doing by virtue of not being involved since these were initiated before he became president.

-edit-

Just think about it, they tried to impeach him and it failed. Redoing impeachment against a former political opponent is such a bad look, for Biden and the House.

I agree. There's nothing to be gained by jumping all over Trump's crimes, though they most likely are indictable. This is not how you heal wounds, and I think Biden is all about fixing the country by smoothing out the divide.

[smartcooky]

As I posted in another thread, The New York AG, Letitia James is preparing a list of things Trump has done for Biden to target and undo, and she also plans to visit his legal jeopardy on him...

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/202...tions-n1245358

...and that is just for starters. The Manhatten DA, Cyrus Vance is also gunning for his hide.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/10/07/p...ing/index.html[/quote]

If Biden wins, and that is looking increasingly likely, Trump will not be able to use his magic POTUS shield any more, so there will ne no more granting so-called "absolute immunity" to witnesses against him; they will no longer be able to dodge subpoenas.

ETA:

There is a nice summary of possible charges Trump will face here...

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2...legal-threats/

If its TL;DR for you...

Federal Charges
Obstruction of Justice ( three counts - trying to fire Mueller,)
Obstruction of Justice (ten counts - outlined in the Muller Report)
Campaign finance violations
Congressional Tax and Financial Records
Federal Tax Evasion

He could be pardoned for the above by Pence if Trump hands over to him before Jan 20, 20201

State Charges
Tax Evasion
Real Estate Fraud
Multi-Level Marketing Fraud (Don Jr's Pyramid Scheme)

Lawsuits
Mary Trump’s Fraud Suit
E. Jean Carroll’s Defamation Suit
Summer Zervos’s Defamation Suit

In addition to the above, he really needs to be thoroughly investigated for criminal money laundering. His close involvement with Russian Oligarchs makes it almost a certainty that he was laundering money for Russian criminals thorough his business enterprises (such as his Atlanta Casinos)

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Which charge will be made first, and when?

I have no idea which will be the first one, but I'm picking no charges will be laid until about March 2021.

I predict no charges directly related to his conduct in office.

His taxes? It's hard to say. To be honest, I doubt it. I think if they had a solid case, they would have brought it already, or revealed the evidence already.

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Can like just a regular citizen sue the President? Or a private citizen who once was President?

A regular citizen can sue the President, but not for actions that he did as President. In other words, I can't say, "Donald Trump's policies cost me money, and so he owes me damages." That much is settled law.

Regarding his other conduct, yes. Paula Jones sued Bill Clinton. The woman he allegedly raped has an ongoing suit against Donald Trump right now, which was filed while he was already President.

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I wonder if an impeachment counts as trial for Double Jeopardy purposes.

No.

[Segnosaur]

Originally Posted by eerok

I agree. There's nothing to be gained by jumping all over Trump's crimes, though they most likely are indictable. This is not how you heal wounds, and I think Biden is all about fixing the country by smoothing out the divide.

That is of course assuming that being lenient with trump actually does smooth out the divide.

I suspect in that case, the MAGAchuds will continue to assume that "Trump is the greatest", and the fact that he hasn't been charged with any crimes means that his rightful government was overthrown by the evil democrats.. I.e. no healing.

[shemp]

I hope he does something that merits a charge of treason.

Quote:

18 U.S. Code § 2381 - Treason. Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000;

I don't really think he'd be sentenced to death but I'd love to at least see him on trial for his miserable worthless life.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by dirtywick

I think this is all things Biden will avoid doing. Letting the ongoing financial investigations play out is a better call for him.

That's an excellent point. I hope that's how it goes.

Originally Posted by shemp

I don't really think he'd be sentenced to death but I'd love to at least see him on trial for his miserable worthless life.

I agree with that, though!

[Segnosaur]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I predict no charges directly related to his conduct in office.

That will probably be the case.

Quote:

His taxes? It's hard to say. To be honest, I doubt it. I think if they had a solid case, they would have brought it already, or revealed the evidence already.

Not necessarily.

First of all, tax and financial crimes far too often get overlooked, and it does take time to build a case. (Remember, Manafort went years before his crimes were uncovered, and if it wasn't for his connection with Stubby Mcbonespurs, he might never have been charged.) Its possible that there are some potentially big crimes that Trump could be charged with, but have simply been overlooked. And how long did the Trump foundation function before people started seriously looking into its crimes?

And as for 'revealing the evidence', usually prosecutors want to avoid revealing details of their investigation prior to trial.

[eerok]

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

That is of course assuming that being lenient with trump actually does smooth out the divide.

I think that Biden will think so. Personally I'd like to see Trump rot in prison, but I'm not sure it's the best way to go. Hands across the water and all that.

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

I suspect in that case, the MAGAchuds will continue to assume that "Trump is the greatest", and the fact that he hasn't been charged with any crimes means that his rightful government was overthrown by the evil democrats.. I.e. no healing.

It'll take some time to detox the Trump followers, that's true. I think time might do it, though, and it might be enough to crush Trump financially to deflate his allure.

The problem with a barrage of indictments is that picking a fight creates a fight.

[Yalius]

I think he's going to pull a Polanski. No reason, just gut feeling.

[eerok]

Originally Posted by Yalius

I think he's going to pull a Polanski. No reason, just gut feeling.

Trump is too stupid to realize he's done anything wrong. That drastically limits his choices.

[EHocking]

If there ever was a case for pleading diminished capacity his would be one.

[Segnosaur]

I guess maybe we should ask ourselves, what crimes has Donald Trump likely committed that he could be punished for?

Off the top of my head, and based on stuff that is publically known, I have:

Prior to his 2016 run for president:

Note that some of these might be past the statute of limitations.

- Tax/bank/insurance fraud: overstating the value of certain properties to secure bank loans and/or understating them for tax purposes

- Tax fraud: payments to Ivanka as a 'consultant' while she was employed with the Trump organization

- Tax fraud: Use of property classified as an investment property for personal use (See: Detroit News)

- Money Laundering: We know that he has sold properties at far above market values to Russian interests. We also know that Trump uses a lot of shell companies, which raises a lot of red flags. (See: Wired)

Since his Run for president:

- Campaign finance violations (payments to Stormy Daniels)

- Perjury (Mueller claimed that Trump was less than truthful in written responses he gave during his investigation)

- Giving false weather statements (Remember sharpie-gate, where he drew on a weather map and claimed Alabama might be affected by a hurricane. Apparently that is actually against the law.)

Other stuff...

Some of the stuff Trump has done are unethical and potentially illegal, but would be difficult or impossible to bring charges for various reasons:

- Emoluments clause: Its unconstitutional for the president to accept gifts, and its possible that foreign governments using Trump hotels would be a violation of that clause. (Same with U.S. government use of his properties too.) However, it is not a criminal code violation. (Its possible that maybe they may be able to work it into a 'bribery' crime.)

- Violation of the Hatch act, by using the white house for campaign events. (However, I believe the president is excluded from the Hatch act.)

- Violating the presidential records act (By destroying memos and other items that he has read.) Unfortunately I don't think there is any sort of penalty associated with doing so.

- Violation of various secrecy acts. This is complex, because the president does have the right to declassify information, but it still must be done following a certain methodology. (He can't just blurt out "here is where the alien bodies are stored in area 51", he needs to declassify the data first before revealing it.)

[Mumbles]

I doubt anyone will be shocked by what I consider to be ideal for Dolt 45, given his actions.

Won't happen, but it'd be nice.

The narcissist has plenty of difficulty on his way regardless, if reports are reliable. Massive debts coming due, out of political power, lots of criminal connections and activities at various levels of government.

[eerok]

Originally Posted by EHocking

If there ever was a case for pleading diminished capacity his would be one.

Cruel but accurate. He'd never use this as a legal defence, though, due to his ego problems.

[rockinkt]

Originally Posted by Bob001

Depends on the grounds. You can't sue the President for his official acts. But you can sue him for his personal actions, particularly before he became President. You might recall that more than one woman is suing him now for his (alleged) behavior before he became President. Paula Jones sued Clinton while he was President.

They made a special deal for Clinton due in large part to not wanting to pursue criminal charges against a former president.
From The New York Times:
In a sad coda to his tumultuous presidency, Bill Clinton used his final full day in office yesterday to bring legal closure and a belated measure of candor to the scandal that will forever mar his record. Under what amounts to a plea-bargain deal with the independent counsel Robert Ray, Mr. Clinton admitted for the first time to ''testifying falsely'' when he denied an affair with Monica Lewinsky during a deposition in the Paula Jones sexual harassment suit. Most people will properly see that as an admission that he lied under oath, notwithstanding the semantic quibbling of Mr. Clinton's lawyer, David Kendall.

As part of the deal, Mr. Clinton also accepted a five-year suspension of his license to practice law in Arkansas and agreed to pay a $25,000 fine. In exchange, Mr. Ray has agreed to close his investigation without filing any criminal charges against Mr. Clinton for perjury or obstruction of justice.

https://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/20/o...last-deal.html

[shemp]

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

I guess maybe we should ask ourselves, what crimes has Donald Trump likely committed that he could be punished for?

Off the top of my head, and based on stuff that is publically known, I have:

Prior to his 2016 run for president:

Note that some of these might be past the statute of limitations.

- Tax/bank/insurance fraud: overstating the value of certain properties to secure bank loans and/or understating them for tax purposes

- Tax fraud: payments to Ivanka as a 'consultant' while she was employed with the Trump organization

- Tax fraud: Use of property classified as an investment property for personal use (See: Detroit News)

- Money Laundering: We know that he has sold properties at far above market values to Russian interests. We also know that Trump uses a lot of shell companies, which raises a lot of red flags. (See: Wired)

Since his Run for president:

- Campaign finance violations (payments to Stormy Daniels)

- Perjury (Mueller claimed that Trump was less than truthful in written responses he gave during his investigation)

- Giving false weather statements (Remember sharpie-gate, where he drew on a weather map and claimed Alabama might be affected by a hurricane. Apparently that is actually against the law.)

Other stuff...

Some of the stuff Trump has done are unethical and potentially illegal, but would be difficult or impossible to bring charges for various reasons:

- Emoluments clause: Its unconstitutional for the president to accept gifts, and its possible that foreign governments using Trump hotels would be a violation of that clause. (Same with U.S. government use of his properties too.) However, it is not a criminal code violation. (Its possible that maybe they may be able to work it into a 'bribery' crime.)

- Violation of the Hatch act, by using the white house for campaign events. (However, I believe the president is excluded from the Hatch act.)

- Violating the presidential records act (By destroying memos and other items that he has read.) Unfortunately I don't think there is any sort of penalty associated with doing so.

- Violation of various secrecy acts. This is complex, because the president does have the right to declassify information, but it still must be done following a certain methodology. (He can't just blurt out "here is where the alien bodies are stored in area 51", he needs to declassify the data first before revealing it.)

That's a hanging offense!

[Darat]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Which charge will be made first, and when?



I have no idea which will be the first one, but I'm picking no charges will be laid until about March 2021.

Would have thought the New York lot would be the first.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by dirtywick

I meant any charges will be at the state level. Biden isn’t going to sic the DOJ on him and would cooperate with any requests only to the extent required.



The last thing Biden will want to do is appear to be getting some kind of revenge.

Why would that be the last thing? I'd say if you want to see USA democracy "repaired" and if Trump should be taken to trial then Biden needs to move heaven and earth to have him put on trial, the example has to be set.